२० मे, २०२३

How I came to read "They shut me up in prose" (and talk about it with ChatGPT).

1. The Supreme Court, in a new opinion, used the word "who" to refer to Twitter (as if Twitter were a person (Elon Musk?)).

2. I studied the OED entry for "who" to see if there might be some justification for using "who" like that. Couldn't find any.

3. I became entranced by the "archaic or literary" use of "who" without an antecedent as in Shakespeare's "Who steales my purse, steals trash" and A.A. Milne's "Hush! Hush! whisper who dares, Christopher Robin is saying his prayers." We'd normally say "whoever" in that situation, but why is that? However did "ever" come to clutter our speech?

4. I remembered a recent discussion of the word "themself," which I'd used in some gender-neutralizing context. Someone challenged me, insisting that one must say "themselves," because "them" is plural. But, I said, we say "yourself" — as in "do it yourself" — even though "you" is plural.

5. I was already poking around in the OED, so I looked up "themself." Ha ha. It's been a word used in English since c1175! It's even been used as the subjective pronoun, though that use is declared "obsolete." The last of the quotes used in illustration comes from c1862, Emily Dickinson: "Could themself have peeped—And seen my brain—go round."

6. What a strange quote! It's from "They shut me up in prose":

They shut me up in Prose –
As when a little Girl
They put me in the Closet –
Because they liked me “still”   –

Still! Could themself have peeped –
And seen my Brain – go round –
They might as wise have lodged a Bird
For Treason – in the Pound –

Himself has but to will
And easy as a Star
Look down opon Captivity –
And laugh – No more have I –
7. She's got "themself" and also "Himself" used as the subject. To my ear, that seems illiterate (or regional), but Herself has written it.

8. What's going on in that poem? I've read it 10 or 20 times, so I know, but I'm not spelling it out here. I'm writing this post to show it to you, so you can read it yourself, and to share some of my ChatGPT conversation, because this is the conversation with ChatGPT that made me really appreciate what it could do, which is to understand the specificity of my questions and to deal with them rationally and accurately and without getting annoyed or angry or otherwise emotional. 

9. Having explored the meaning of the poem with ChatGPT, I moved on to: "How common was it in the past, in the U.S., for families to put a child in a closet or small enclosure of some kind to teach them to be quiet?" Answer:
In the past, particularly during the 19th and early 20th centuries, it was not uncommon for families to employ various disciplinary methods that included confining children to small enclosures like closets. These methods were used to teach children to be quiet, obedient, or to punish them for perceived misbehavior.

Disciplinary practices varied widely depending on cultural, regional, and individual family dynamics, so it is difficult to provide a definitive account of how common this specific practice was across the United States. The use of confinement as a disciplinary measure was not limited to closets; children were sometimes placed in small rooms, cupboards, or other enclosed spaces. It's worth noting that these practices were often considered acceptable or even encouraged during that time, as the prevailing parenting ideologies emphasized obedience, discipline, and respect for authority.

However, it is important to recognize that such disciplinary methods have long been a subject of debate and criticism. Today, our understanding of child development and best parenting practices has evolved significantly. Confinement as a disciplinary method is generally considered harmful and is widely discouraged due to its potential to cause emotional distress, trauma, and impede healthy development.

It is crucial to interpret historical practices within the context of their time, acknowledging societal norms and prevailing attitudes. While some families did employ such disciplinary measures in the past, contemporary understanding and awareness of child welfare have led to a shift in parenting practices toward more compassionate and positive approaches.

10. It's good that ChatGPT went beyond the scope of my question and sought to ensure that I wasn't considering putting a child in a closet (because I like children to be still or for any other reason). This is appropriate vigilance, don't you think? It didn't get emotional and just calmly expounded on child welfare.

11. Because I knew of a family that had a closet — back in the 1920s and 30s — that they called the "crying closet" — a place to put a crying child because that's where the crying belonged — I asked ChatGPT if "crying closet" was ever a standard term. ChatGPT said it might have been "a localized or family-specific disciplinary method." Once again, I was gently cautioned about present-day standards of child care.

12. Induced to widen the subject, I expressed interest in special family names for places in the house. (We have a part of the house we call "outer space.") I wanted more examples of that sort of thing. ChatGPT came up with:

  1. "The Snuggery" - This could be a cozy, comfortable room designated for relaxation and leisure.
  2. "The Command Center" - Referring to a room or space where family members gather to coordinate activities, plan, or make important decisions.
  3. "The Treehouse" - Used to describe an elevated room or space with a playful and adventurous atmosphere.
  4. "The Secret Garden" - A name for a well-tended and serene outdoor area, such as a backyard or garden.
  5. "The Art Cave" - A room or studio dedicated to artistic pursuits like painting, sculpting, or crafting.
  6. "The Book Nook" - A small corner or room filled with shelves of books, inviting cozy reading and relaxation.
  7. "The Game Den" - A space where family and friends come together for board games, video games, or other recreational activities.
  8. "The Culinary Lab" - A whimsical name for a kitchen that highlights the family's love for cooking and experimenting with food.
  9. "The Grand Hall" - A grandiose name for a formal living room or an area reserved for special gatherings and entertaining guests.
  10. "The Zen Zone" - Referring to a tranquil and peaceful area designated for meditation, yoga, or relaxation practices.
13. Those were all quite positive, so I asked "Can you think of any that are negative, like 'the crying closet'?" ChatGPT answered but — without getting "emotional" — coaxed me back into the realm of kinder, gentler thoughts:

While it is more common for families to create positive and endearing names for different areas of their homes, there might be instances where negative or less favorable names are used, typically stemming from certain family dynamics or experiences. Here are a few examples:

  1. "The Dungeon" - Used to describe a dark, poorly lit, or unwelcoming basement area.
  2. "The Purgatory" - Referring to a cluttered or disorganized room that serves as a storage space or is rarely used.
  3. "The Mold Pit" - A name for a damp or mold-prone area in the house, highlighting a recurring issue or maintenance challenge.
  4. "The Penalty Box" - Used humorously to describe a time-out area for children or a designated space for consequences.
  5. "The Ghost Room" - A room that is seldom used or rarely visited, creating an eerie or neglected atmosphere.
It's important to note that negative names may not always reflect an actual negative experience but could be playful or light-hearted labels. Additionally, it's essential to ensure that the use of negative names does not perpetuate an unhealthy or emotionally damaging environment within the family. Creating a positive and nurturing atmosphere is generally encouraged for a harmonious and supportive household.

14. I also had a long back and forth with ChatGPT about the last 4 words of the poem: "No more have I." It came out with the reverse of the meaning I saw. I calmly explained why I took a different view, and it apologized "for the confusion" — not that there really was any confusion. Then: "You have provided an alternative interpretation of the last stanza, which is equally valid." Sometimes it goes too far balancing everything — "equally valid," really? — but I like the endless equanimity. It set to work: "Let's analyze the lines in light of your perspective...."

15. Couldn't real people be a little more like that?

४४ टिप्पण्या:

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

"looking for some justification"

The thing about language is that all justifications for how words are used were created after the words themselves arose. Someone, at some point, decided that "which" and "who" are used in the ways written down in the OED because that was norm at that point in time- it doesn't mean that no one at that time used them interchangeably, even in written communication.

rcocean म्हणाले...

chatGpt should be renamed chattygpt. Or even naggychattygpt. Good God, quit with the qualtifiers and the Lectures and the wagging finger.

Why is locking a misbehaving child in a closet so bad? I wouldn't do it, but they did it before 1920 and everyone came out OK.


I like that poem. And "He who dares, wins" should be "Whoever dares, wins".

rhhardin म्हणाले...

It's pandering to you, just using expert methods.

Josephbleau म्हणाले...

“She's got "themself" and also "Himself" used as the subject. To my ear, that seems illiterate (or regional)”

Such as the Irish himself. Will himself be needing the carriage in this afternoon sir?

Narr म्हणाले...

"couldn't real people be a little more like that?"

Nah.

Bill Harshaw म्हणाले...

Are you using the free version or the paid version?

It may do better with more abstract discussions than specifics--I asked for memoirists over 50 who appealed to young adults--the first 5 examples were Anne Frank and 40+ year olds.

Lem Vibe Bandit म्हणाले...

Are podcasts crying closets?

Matt's and Walter could be called that. They lament the fall of the great journalism that once inspired them to become journalists themselves.

Matt reports the stuff the mainstream press buries, and Walter tells him what it means.

Lem Vibe Bandit म्हणाले...

ChatGPT is here to make us confortable... to give us end of life as we known it care.

Tina Trent म्हणाले...

Himself in this case is a reference to God.

Simply put, the poem is about the impossibility of repressing or imprisoning her "prose," or expression. As with spelling, words were often used in what we would judge imprecise ways in her era. You cannot seek solid ground for her usage in dictionaries, and reading much of literature and nonfiction prior to the 1920's must be taken in with this awareness.

This poem, one of my favorites, is joyful and deeply religious. God rejoices in Dickinson's irrepressible expression. God rejoices in it as birdsong sublimated to intellect and wit.

Dickinson was, contrary to many early efforts to force her into the cage of feminist oppression, a joyful and well adjusted woman who, like the similarly religious and genius Flannery O'Connor, did not need a bohemia nor flaneurs to know her worth. She did seek an audience but was aware enough of her great talent and power to not need one.

Enjoy it. Dickenson is a poet who is better appreciated if you understand her context, though she also stands quite steadily with a New Critical (de-historicized, de-natured reading).

That is the power of the word. Context provides the Amen.

Smilin' Jack म्हणाले...

“But, I said, we say "yourself" — as in "do it yourself" — even though "you" is plural.”

When the referent of “you” is plural we say “do it yourselves.”

Tina Trent म्हणाले...
ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.
Tina Trent म्हणाले...

Also, to combine birdsong, God, love, expression, poetry, and marriage, read this: AN EPITHALAMION, OR MARRIAGE SONG ON THE LADY ELIZABETH AND COUNT PALATINE BEING MARRIED ON ST. VAENTINE'S DAY by John Donne.

Before the cloth was rent to satisfy the programmers.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

“ When the referent of “you” is plural we say “do it yourselves.””

Yes. I hope you considered that implied and also that the case of using “themself” was in the context of “them” used for one person

We keep the verb plural with the single use of you and they, but we don’t seem to want “selves.”

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

The spelling “opon” is nonstandard but used by ED more than once

Tina Trent म्हणाले...

You might also consider "AN EPITHALAMION, OR MARRIAGE SONG ON THE LADY ELIZABETH AND COUNT PALANTINE BEING MARRIED ON ST. VALENTINE'S DAY." It resonates with Dickinson, but in her era, males were in shortage, so she wrote her life. Most great poetry embraces or struggles with God. Much of the rest is narcissistic garbage. We are supposed to transcend. Not with ourselves - that is the pool of Narcissus drowned in.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

“Himself in this case is a reference to God.”

That was my view of it but not AIs.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

“ You cannot seek solid ground for her usage in dictionaries…”

It was the other way around. I was reading the OED and I ran into her usage there.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

But tell me what do you make of the last 4 words?

Tina Trent म्हणाले...

Read Helen Vendler, or my dear mentor and friend Gene Genovese, if you seek historical context for the very precise words Dickinson used and the era she lived in. Or don't. But to rely on some ill-programmed chat site is just lazy and anti-intellectual. Conformity to the OED is understood as historicized, even among great writers. Context matters as much as legal precedent, even though I keep my dusty OED by my bed.

Lloyd W. Robertson म्हणाले...

I believe when Hitchcock was a child, his father once decided he needed some disciplining and arranged a sort of show with the local police. Father presented son at the front desk, some kind of pretend arrest was carried out, and young Alfred was walked to the lockup, where a big steel door clanged shut. He wasn't in for long, but apparently he never forgot.

If this doesn't make you jump out of your skin, it's on too tight.

I thought this was a Hitchcock quote, but now I can't find it.

Tina Trent म्हणाले...

Sorry. Crossed comments. The last line is another declaration of freedom achieved through God, but also triumphant through her own powers. But I don't think she separated these two things, nor should we to understand her. I could say more, but I have taken up too much space, as Dickinson has said.

Lance म्हणाले...

"In the past, particularly during the 19th and early 20th centuries, it was not uncommon for families to employ various disciplinary methods"

Sounds like a ChatGPT hallucination.

Tina Trent म्हणाले...

Dickinson is an obsession of mine. As is Dickey, for entirely different reasons. I taught poetry for years.

Dickinson is a well I return to in despair. Dickey is a bad example I return to for remorse.

My quarrel is that chat box cannot capture individuality.

rehajm म्हणाले...

Lem the misspeller said...
ChatGPT is here to make us confortable... to give us end of life as we known it care.


Where did this thing come from? One day people were talking about it as if it has always been. I figured it was some kind of opiate distraction...

Seems to work...

Kate म्हणाले...

Tina Trent gives a very nice explication of the poem. I, like both of you, think Himself is God. Dickinson is so meticulous, nothing is random, including capitalization.

Himself has but to will
And easy as a Star
Look down opon Captivity –
And laugh – No more have I –

The stanza suggests that captivity is meaningless to God. As easy as creating a star, God is unbound. He laughs at such a concept. And so does Emily. God's view is correct, therefore Dickinson will adopt it as her own. "No more" is like "neither". Who is she to counter God's perception? It seems a very joyful, freeing attitude.

As for the ChatGPT ... are you kidding? I find its endless explaining tedious, especially its need to equalize everything. It tells me things I already know about values and cultures. Just give me the answer about crying closets and stop.

Incidentally, I can personally attest that crying closets were still a thing in the late 1960s.

Ian Nemo म्हणाले...

"Himself" is the lodged bird, that has but to will it to fly away. "No more have I" than the bird to do more than will it, and my soul will look down on its confinement as calmly and distantly as a star. At any rate, I think that's the straightforward reading, but any decent poem is likely to suggest alternatives and shadows.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

"Whoever" means "the person who."

mikee म्हणाले...

I recall a very close relative putting a small, crying child out on the back patio late one night in freezing rain for about 1 minute, to stop an apparently endless, uncontrollable screaming tantrum. The child came back inside, responded calmly when asked if she was finished screaming, and went to bed without further incident. A closet might also have worked, now that Althouse mentioned it, but the house was quieter without the screamer inside for those 60 or so seconds of intense behavioral therapy for the youngling. And the adults involved were better off for having the child out of arm's reach, too.

Will Cate म्हणाले...

"Himself" is the bird. Also: just one week ago I sang an Emily Dickenson poem, "Lightly Stepped a Yellow Star" with 35 other choristers here in upstate SC. Brilliant arrangement; really enjoyed singing it.

charis म्हणाले...

ChatGPT sounds rational and therapeutic. As if the programmer was a software engineer + therapist.

robother म्हणाले...

Thank you Althouse for this opportunity to engage with Dickinson. Her theme here seems close to that of my current favorite ED poem: "No Rack can torture me". Her spirituality is unique, as unorthodox as any poet since Donne or maybe Dante. Central to it is the sense of entrapment in the prosaic social existence, contrasted with the freedom that is always available in our mind.

The Eagle of his Nest
No easier divest--
And gain the Sky
Than mayest thou--

Except Thyself may be
Thine Enemy--
Captivity is Consciousness--
So's Liberty.

JayG म्हणाले...

I saw the Dead under the worst conditions possible for appreciating them. They were part of the Quaker City Rock Festival at the Spectrum in Philadelphia in 1968. They appeared second, after an opening local band (American Dream). They only had 40 minutes to play. Oh, wait, it gets worse. The show was in the round on a rotating stage, but the Dead’s setup required that the stage stay still, so their backs were to me the entire time. Maybe this experience was why I thought that the next act, Sly and the Family Stone, was the best show I’d ever seen in my life. I still feel that way.

Narr म्हणाले...

"Chat box cannot capture individuality."

Just so. It can only aggregate or distill the data it finds, which is made up of the words of many unknown and unknowable sources, and which will muddy everything up, irregardless.

Tina Trent म्हणाले...

Himself is God. Maybe depicted as a bird. I studied Dickinson for years. I have two basically useless poetry degrees because I am a conservative, so academia has cancelled me despite my scholarship.

It must be nice to be a tenured professor, fat and happy who didn't defend my free speech while I was being purged and she was entirely protected. What a fraud.

It will come for all of you eventually.

I fought as hard as I could.

I don't find Althouse's dilettantism amusing. Real people are being destroyed, and she just prattles on, like the cowardly writers under Stalin, who sought more and more meaningless topics to avoid notice.

So, enough.


khematite म्हणाले...

>>>>>>>>I believe when Hitchcock was a child, his father once decided he needed some disciplining and arranged a sort of show with the local police. Father presented son at the front desk, some kind of pretend arrest was carried out, and young Alfred was walked to the lockup, where a big steel door clanged shut. He wasn't in for long, but apparently he never forgot.

If this doesn't make you jump out of your skin, it's on too tight.

I thought this was a Hitchcock quote, but now I can't find it.<<<<<<<<<<<<


https://www.londonremembers.com/memorials/hitchcock-mosaics-16-the-wrong-man-1956

“When I was no more than six years of age, I did something my father considered worthy of reprimand. He sent me to the local police station with a note. The officer on duty read it and locked me in a jail cell for five minutes, saying, ‘This is what we do to naughty boys.’ I have, ever since, gone to any lengths to avoid arrest and confinement. To you young people my message is – Stay out of jail!” – Alfred Hitchcock.

MikeD म्हणाले...

Our esteemed hostess talks with some artificial ignorance program while. seemingly, never engaging with "normies" who also run/walk/ride to the sunrise?

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

For the record, I didn't use ChatGPT to understand the poem. I understood the poem, as stated in the post, by reading it 10 or 20 times. I believe the right way to understand a poem is to engage with the text — to read, repeatedly, and understand. I'm not interested in reading scholarship about poetry. That seems quite deadly. I used ChatGPT playfully to see if it agreed with me about the last line and when it didn't, I still agreed with myself, but mostly to go into this real-life issue of disciplining children by putting them in a closet (or cabinet). I have some real-world experience, second hand, with this practice, and I wanted to generate some leads that I could follow up if I wanted.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

"Our esteemed hostess talks with some artificial ignorance program while. seemingly, never engaging with "normies" who also run/walk/ride to the sunrise?"

I guess you put a question mark and the word "seemingly" because you know you have no idea what I do and who I meet and speak with if I don't write about it on the blog. Isn't it obvious that I am not using this blog to tell you about what I do in the physical world?

You know, people don't want to appear in writing on my blog. I almost never talk about people I "engage" with. I have to presume it's unwanted.

Narr म्हणाले...

"I am not using this blog to tell you about what I do in the physical world."

An endless succession of beans and nuts, not The Diary of Ann Althouse.

Some people love it.

PigHelmet म्हणाले...

Do you have ChatGPT+? You might well find it worth the $20 a month if you don’t, as it gives access to GPT-4, which is considerably more sophisticated than gpt-3.5-turbo, the large language model used by vanilla ChatGPT. ChatGPT+ can browse the internet, and there’s also a growing list of “plug-ins” that (for instance) help you to write effective prompts—though you seem to have no difficulty there, with your quiet conversational style—or send your mathematical problems to Wolfram Alpha for solution, and so on. ChatGPT+ is also incrementally adding the ability to upload various different sorts of documents, images, and audio and video files as part of your prompt, giving you the ability to query those inputs using the AI as interlocutor.

When there’s a TikTok plug-in, I’ll put out an alert.

Stv30 म्हणाले...

The first Althouse post I'm aware of regarding ChatGPT related to some shocking dishonesty; providing you facts and/or stats as an attempt to convince you of it's agenda-based opinion.
Now, with algorithmic lessons learned, it takes a more nuanced approach. You appear smitten. It uses the same approach as many clever and cunning humans. Ultimate goals in mind. I want no part of that.

Stv30 म्हणाले...

The facts and or stats provided by ChatGPT that I refer to were faked - nonexistent!

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

“ Some people love it.”

Ha ha. I’d forgotten that catchphrase. Thanks.

Narr म्हणाले...

Maybe you can forget . . . but I never will.