Writes Courtney Love, in "Why are women so marginalised by the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame?" (The Guardian).
Why hasn't Love written off the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame? However much contempt she has for the place, she says it's "a bulwark against erasure... game recognising game, history made and marked... a king-making force in the global music industry." It makes "the difference between touring secondary-market casinos opening for a second-rate comedian, or headlining respected festivals."
“Politics is downstream from culture” - ANDREW🤮BREITBART.
— Courtney Love Cobain (@Courtney) March 16, 2023
Keeping ‘uppity’ lgbtq, poc & women in ‘our place’ is part of the entire ‘strategy’ because on that point?
He’s NOT wrong. @rockhall BRO U ARENT OK.#rockhall 🔥
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51 comments:
Today, just 8.48% of the (Hall of Fame) inductees are women.
How does that compare to the percentage of all people who have released records over the years, or the number of hit records?
Adversity in diversity (e.g. racism, sexism, ageism, and other class-disordered ideologies).
Hell... clinic in a handbag? Purse? Wallet? Smart phone?
I think you said something. It probably wasn't important. So, I'll just ignore you. h/t Andrea
If the Rock Hall is not willing to look at the ways it is replicating the violence of structural racism and sexism that artists face in the music industry…
That’s some distortion racket.
No sensible person with better options involves himself or herself in the rock and roll business, because it’s an abominable shithole. Corrupt, rotten, cheap, exploitive, etc.
Women are a little more sensible than men, particularly about spending their nights in crappy dive bars for low to zero pay. Which explains most everything. The dominance of men in rock is hard evidence that most men are kinda dumb.
The R&R Hall of Fame is a business with zero legal requirements and zero authority. They are free to choose who to induct in the same fashion as Disney chooses the theme for a new movie or park attraction. Everything about it is commercial, and fully unrelated to absolute truths or government pronouncements.
Male sports are wildly successful worldwide. Female sports are typically...subsidized... If this was the Pop and Vocals Hall of Fame women would likely have a larger presence. R&R is a specific genre where women have never been dominant, and are rarely leaders of the genre.
Nothing to see here.
If the Rock Hall is not willing to look at the ways it is replicating the violence of structural racism and sexism that artists face in the music industry...
She had me, then she lost me.
The guaranteed way to get booked at the entry levels of the music biz is to show the venue manager a picture of your band that includes a woman. Bring along with a young, moderately attractive young woman to show to the manager, and you’ll get booked on the spot.
It's a travesty that Big Momma Thornton isn't in. You can find videos of some of her performances on YouTube. She was a singer's singer. She did Ball and Chain better than Janis Joplin (she wrote it) and Hound Dog better than Elvis (it was written for her).
Young men plink-plink guitars because there's good evidence young women will go for the plink-plinkers. I don't think there's equal evidence flowing the other way.
What about the groupies?
Sister Rosetta Tharp not in the Hall until 2018? Shameful, yes, structural blahblahblah, no. That's just Jann Wenner's clueless assholery, nothing structural about it. See also T. Rex, The Cure, New Order, etc, etc. Now that some level of control has been wrestled away from him, the Hall is slowly diversifying.
Well, women could always set up a women's R&R hall of fame. I hear there are quite a few billionaire tech widows/divorcees. What's stopping them?
Put in Scandal (Patty Smyth) and The Cranberries. Put in all of the one-hit wonder Grrl bands from Courtney Love's era. Leave Courtney out, just to spite her.
"If this was the Pop and Vocals Hall of Fame women would likely have a larger presence. R&R is a specific genre where women have never been dominant, and are rarely leaders of the genre."
Inductees include musicians in R & B, country, blues, and even jazz.
Leslie Gore is long overdue. Watch her in the TAMI Show.
If the RnR All of Fame treated all sexes and genders equally, Courtney Love still wouldn't get in.
If you look at R&R and R&B I doubt more than 10 percent of the great artists (and that includes singers) are women.
If you look at Pop Music, women are notable for their abcense in everything except writing lyrics and singing. Pop Music is like playing chess, painting, math, physics, and poetry. Male dominated.
Look at her examples of who was left out. Proves my point. BTW, I love how someone computed the percent to 2 decimals. 8 percent? No, 8.12 percent. LOL!
Never ever heard of sister Rosetta. What’s the general criteria? I was going to say, it’s not the blues hall of fame, or the folk hall of fame…if it’s a contribution to the rock n roll genre they’re looking for, well Patti Smith, Debbie Harry and Chrissy Hynde are the only ones that spring to mind. That’s not to say there s no talent on the distaff side: Joni Mitchell, Linda Ronstadt, Bonny Raitt, , Emmy Lou Harris and on and on…
I know it’s only rock n roll but I like it.
She had me until she veered into the “perpetrating violence” woke bullshit. What a shame. She has a good premise with Big Mama alone. My belief is that the artists that are biggest stars built their work on, like Elvis did with Thornton’s “Hound Dog,” should be honored for the work they did.
Why hasn't Love written off the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame?
Cause she's still hoping she might be able to sneak-in and get herself inducted?
Why are any Rappers in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?
Because it's not that, really.
I've always thought the genre is pretty antithetical to any sort of hall of fame, myself.
Having said that, Celebrity Skin is one of my favorite albums of the '90s.
Courtney Love? Didn't she have a band called "Hole"?
Stop over-thinking this. Follow the money. If consumers wanted more female rocker and rollers there would be more female rock and rollers.
If there was money to be made by mortgage bankers in inner city neighborhoods there would a Wells Fargo office on every street corner.
It's not racial. There's only one color that matters. It's green.
I just searched the inductees and was really surprised that Janis Joplin isn't in. WTF?
There are 61 women in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame? Already too many.
My mistake about Janis, I spelled her name wrong in the search. Oops.
the Majority of albums the i buy (and, YES; gilbar STILL Buys albums) are female vocalists..
In fact, that Majority of them are female groups...
BUT...
Serious Questions:
What percent of record sales in the last 60 years have been sales of female vocalists or groups?
What percent of radio play in the last 60 years has been female vocalist or groups?
What percent of A History of Rock Music in Five Hundred Songs have been female vocalists or groups?
How do THOSE numbers compare to the 8.4% inducted in Cincinnati,or Columbus, or Chillicothe whereever..
Shouting Thomas said..
Women are a little more sensible than men, particularly about spending their nights in crappy dive bars for low to zero pay. Which explains most everything. The dominance of men in rock is hard evidence that most men are kinda dumb.
Actually.. What explains Most everything is:
(MANY) Straight girls are More Than Willing, to jump in the sack (or lay down behind the amps) with a scurvy Rock 'n' Roll guy. THIS explains most everything .
The dominance of men in rock is hard evidence that MANY) women are kinda easy for a long haired bum
Sister Rosetta was an influence more than a rocker.
I think women have been somewhat slighted by rock historians in general. But not enormously. A lot of popular female artists were more folky, country, "race music," or night club acts, not rockers. There are exceptions, but let's not get carried away, Love.
Look past the woke phrases and contemplate that Sister Rosetta wasn't inducted until 2018. 2018! Something is deeply wrong with the process.
Sorry, Love. Neil Sedaka isn't in the R&RHF either, and he's thousands of times more talented.
Does Courtney Love realize that she can found the Women's Rock & Roll Hall of Fame and nobody will stop her?
She can also set up a Black Women Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. A Negro League of Her Own.
Again, nobody will stop her.
First, the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame has a very loose definition of rock & roll. The Supremes, The Shirelles, Dusty Springfield, Aretha Franklin, Billie Holiday, Madonna, Whitney Houston, and Dolly Parton are inducted, as are the Bee Gees, ABBA, and N.W.A. If this was a strict definition of Rock & Roll, they would not be inducted. It's pretty clear that pop music and R&B are included with some country artists slipping through. There's a larger pool to select from than the name would suggest.
Second, the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is well known for its biases. For quite a while, the refused to induct anyone of the "progressive rock" category, no matter how big they were. It has the same problem as, say, the Oscars, in which the academy likes what they like, though not to the same corruption level when studios try to make movies specifically to the likes of the academy. It is not out of the question that they have a blind spot for female artists.
Third, there is the matter that the museum wants visitors, and Sister Rosetta is not going to attract visitors. The Rolling Stones and Bon Jovi are. I really like Heart, for instance, but they are not top tier. (They are inducted, by the way.)
What percentage of the inductees would make Courtney happy? I don't think 50/50 is truly feasible since the reality that popular music tends to have more successful male acts. I'm not sure 25/75 is feasible. There's also the matter than the hits from female artists seem to be more consolidated in a few singers each generation. Madonna and Mariah Carey have a huge number of hits. I dunno. Who was the #2 female act of the 1980s? Sheena Easton? Bonnie Tyler?
While Gospel music can be argued as one of the many music genres influenced Rock & Roll, but don't confuse Gospel with Rock & Roll.
Rock is a guitar-driven genre. Before that, tenor sax. There just weren't that many women who played either one well.
And everyone knows that when the focus shifts from instrumentalists to singers, another genre has died.
I admit I have not been around since the beginning, but I remember the '60s and seventies and eighties very well. As far as I can tell the number of women in the Rock and roll Hall of Fame accurately reflects the number of superstars who happen to be women in real life.
It's a silly controversy. When the museum got started of course they went with the big names -- Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry, Little Richard. Then the Beatles, Stones, Dylan, and the Beach Boys. That got people coming to Cleveland.
After the museum was around for a while, they filled in the gaps. They recognized the massive African-American contribution to the music from the beginning, and (if you assume the museum is anything worthwhile) they deserve credit for that.
I don't understand what the relationship between Love and Breitbart might be, but a web search reveals that they have actually been far friendlier to her than I would have been.
Does every complaint have to include 'violence' and 'structural?'
I'm mad about the structural violence inherent in the postman habitually delivering my mail late. There are women of color on the route who are consistently served earlier.
i've spent the last 30 minutes counting A History of Rock Music in Five Hundred Songs episodes.
I count 163 episodes (not counting bonus episodes)..
with 22 about female groups, or group with female vocalist
So, 22/163 = 13.5% That's MORE than 8.5% BUT.. here are those episodes
Jefferson Airplane
Aretha Franklin
Ike and Tina Turner
the Supremes
the Shangri-Las
Millie
Martha and the Vandellas
the Ronettes
The Crystals
Little Eva
the Marvelettes
the Shirelles
Brenda Lee
Wanda Jackson
the Chantels
the Bobbettes
Janis Martin
LaVern Baker
Etta James
Big Mama Thornton
Ruth Brown
Sister Rosetta Tharpe
How many of THOSE, do You think should be in the hall of fame?
Etta James, Wanda Jackson, the Shangri-Las, Millie, Little Eva get my vote, for sure
Rock is a guitar-driven genre. Before that, tenor sax. There just weren't that many women who played either one well.
You men like Sister Rosetta Tharpe?
Also you left out piano. Lots of rocking piano/keyboard players: Fats Domino, Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Ray Charles, Manfred Mann, Inglebert Humperdinck.
I threw that last one in there to see if anyone's paying attention.
You know, women DOMINATE the Quilter's Hall of Fame:
https://quiltershalloffame.net/honorees/
I say that damn sure replicates the structural violence of something or other.
Women are marginalized by the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame because they were marginalized by the rock music industry for decades. The records that were made and sold were dominated by male groups and male singers for a long time. Was this fair? Did female singers and musicians get a fair shake? No. But the fact that most of the acts were male for a long time means that they were the ones who dominated the radio airplay at the time. For that matter, listen to any classic rock station now: You will hear male group after male group, with the occasional song by a female group or a group with a female singer thrown in about once an hour, if that. That's just the nature of the industry at the time that music was made. And unlike baseball, where there were Negro Leaguers who were retroactively inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame long after the Major Leagues were integrated, there is no comparable situation for female singers and musicians who were left on the outside looking in.
Two-eyed Jack said...
“You know, women DOMINATE the Quilter's Hall of Fame”
I always thought those women quilters should have been considered the first abstract artists. Way ahead of the male artists.
Just another reason for Breibart to spin in his grave.
If sheer vocal talent and the voice of an angel was ever rewarded, Valerie Carter would be in.
Lowell George isn’t in. WTF is up with that!?
If you accept long hair rockers as trans then the majority of inductees are women.
I never met Courtney Love but she was well known by a friend and former colleague (now among the "dearly departed"). My friend fronted a very private small club welcoming only the most beautiful beauties and celebrated celebrities in one of the world's great cities.
He found good in some of the quirkiest, insecure and demanding people in the world. In the 40 years I knew him, his rare personal dislike of someone was a privately expressed eye-roll or gently told tale.
The one exception was Courtney Love. No words were too colorful or harsh in describing her as the most disgusting POS on the planet.
Has anyone considered the real implications of women by the 100's or even the thousands willing to fuck rock and NFL/NBA stars?
Wilt Chamberlain? Bill Russell? Jimmy Page? Mick Jagger? And it isn't just a sex thing, it's a prestige thing---Sarah silverman bragging about shtupping Matt Damon is a case in point.
Wymyn are feral creatures, despite Miss Ann's prissy claims otherwise.
Colonel Mustard said...
The one exception was Courtney Love. No words were too colorful or harsh in describing her as the most disgusting POS on the planet.
*******************
Nothing says "classy" better than naming your female band "Hole".
I have to confess that I have been hearing about Courtney Love for about 20 years. Only because of her association with Kurt Cobain, and the name of her band. I could not name a song, or identify her voice if I heard it.
Not my genre, of course, but it seems to me if you are bitching about not being in the Hall of Fame you ought to be famous for something other than the suicide of your famous mate.
Not the R&RHoF, but at the Tokyo HardRock Cafe long ago, I was shown a shirt worn by Meatloaf in concert. It was hermetically sealed in a glass box, displayed on a wall. "Imagine how it smells!" swooned my coworker and local guide. Indeed. Rock on.
Let me add that the R&R Hall of Fame could, conceivably, induct all the women who deserve the honor all at once and increase the number of female acts as a percentage. The problem is after they do that, they probably will struggle to find any female acts to induct after that, which will result in complaints about there were no women in the latest induction class.
There are simply not enough female artists to get to the numbers Courtney wants. She may be correct that the museum has missed some important artists - they have - but it will never be close to 50/50.
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