Asks an anonymous letter-writer of Roxane Gay, the NYT "work friend" advice columnist.
Hey, you know what's "unprofessional"? Staring at nipples!
As Gay puts it: "Women are not imposing their nipples on you by existing, braless, in public spaces. You are imposing your judgment on their bodies." She advises Anonymous to "interrogate the judgments you place on other people’s bodies." Ha ha ha. "Interrogate." Academic jargon is hilarious encountered in the raw on a chilly morning. I picture a crime suspect grilled in a harshly lit, windowless room. But it makes perfect sense to say: question your own judgments. That's something we should do more often.
An especially interesting aspect of this interrogation/questioning is why so fixated on nipples. I have seen this in real life. It's not the non-wearing of a bra that bothers people. It's the visibility of the contour of the nipple. If you wear a completely unpadded bra, your nipples will still show. And you can use a ridiculous product like Nippies and disguise the nipples without wearing a bra. Meanwhile, male nipples are on display everywhere.
Is it that people — some people — have the idea that when female nipples are visible through clothing, what is being seen is an erection? Gay writes: "Nipples exist. Sometimes, they are erect beneath clothing. The human body is not shameful. It’s a perfectly natural thing." If male erections were on display everywhere, you wouldn't blithely intone The human body is not shameful. It’s a perfectly natural thing.
More interrogation is necessary, even of the work friend's judgment.
पोस्ट्स
१०३ टिप्पण्या:
In a professional environment men don't show nipples either. This is why we wear undershirts with dress shirts. I don't see any difference. Ok so if your professional environment is "lifeguard" or "pool cleaner" maybe some male nipples are shown where female ones are not. But by "professional environment" many people typically refer to some sort of office.
And while physical labor jobs are also conducted in a professional manner, those who perform them are often *more* heavily dressed than an equivalent office worker, even in high temperatures, to prevent injury or chafing
For every woman who doesn’t like men staring at her nipples, there are a dozen who do.
Men must be getting a laugh out of this one. The first step in office flirtation from women was always leaning over my desk to give me a glimpse down their blouse, checking to see if I would respond.
Fuck the professional office. What a sadistic, nightmare environment. It’s just a place to make money. If you’re that invested in fucking professional office decorum, you need to get a life.
"Hey, you know what's "unprofessional"? Staring at nipples!"
That depends.
"Hey, you know what's 'unprofessional'? Staring at nipples!"
Tell it to Hillary,
https://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/566750/85033835.jpg
FYI, prof, Henry Miller wrote a book about the nightmare sterility and idiot sadistic environment of the “professional office.”
The title is “The Air Conditioned Nightmare.”
--- As Gay puts it: "Women are not imposing their nipples on you by existing, braless, in public spaces. You are imposing your judgment on their bodies."
So you're supposed to pretend you don't notice the somewhat unusual sight of women's nipples in the office. You have to pretend pretend pretend, so that you're not guilty of being judgmental. Nothing worse than making a judgment. More crapola from the arbiters who are afraid to actually arbit.
If a guy strolls into the ladies room, modern decorum requires women shutup, suck it up, and embrace the trans.
An erect nipple? A bridge to far.
Still not going to take these people serious. Logic is not in their wheelhouse.
It depends on how big you are, whether a bra is more or less comfortable.
The more nipples, the less people will be interested. It's not a question of etiquette. And remember the nipple is the source of the light that proceeds to the eye of the male, not vice versa.
Sigh. Oh, to be young again.
Nipples of women are a distraction and will entice the male gaze every single time. I can’t speak for gays and lesbians. Is the attention invited? That is the question. But remember that silly video of Obama at the front of an airplne cabin with an obvious erection? The giggling from the female press corps!
Vive la difference!
Serious Question for our Professor.. Would it be Okay? For a male to walk around work naked?
Wouldn't it be "unprofessional" of YOU to notice his penis?
Men think about sex. Men think about sex when stimulated by sexually-related stimuli. I am going to like the woman without the bra, at least as a starting default. But I am going to be somewhat distracted by her implicit promise, the lure of her pleasurable body. Please don't pretend that she isn't fully aware of that. So, if getting work done in the office is the primary objective, some limit on sexually stimulating dress is necessary. Women don't wear bikinis to work, so they seem to know that fact as well. Office managers can draw the line where they think best. Making a judgment is necessary and good.
"Women are not imposing their nipples" but they are imposing the sight of their nipples. You can look away after you notice but unless you never look below the head, you will see.
what is this thing you call ladies? What does that even mean?
Sorry
Speaking of nipples being distracting. Anyone remember Amy Adams in American Hustle? The opening scene (set to Steely Dan - Dirty Work)?
Amy's breasts should've won the Oscar for Best Actress that year, just saying.
Show up naked and demand everyone not stare. that'll show em
"Hey, you know what's 'unprofessional'? Staring at nipples!"
To paraphrase an infamous quote, it depends on what the definition of 'staring' is.
And I feel confident in stating that say Tom Brady or Brad Pitt (I know, I'm dating myself) rarely get accused.
"FYI, prof, Henry Miller wrote a book about the nightmare sterility and idiot sadistic environment of the “professional office.”
"The title is 'The Air Conditioned Nightmare.'”
It wasn't just about US office life. It was about America as a nation.
I have nothing against 'free the nipple' but why impose this on others in a professional environment?
Consideration of others is banned in the feminist manifesto.
"For every woman who doesn’t like men staring at her nipples, there are a dozen who do."
My best friend is a 40-year-old woman. She complained to me the other day about how the younger women at her gym wore very revealing clothes with plenty of nipples open to view by all.
I am in my 60's and NEVER wear a bra, other than when I go to a doctor. I have LONG hair that covers my breasts, so most people don't ever suspect a thing. I have ALWAYS hated wearing a bra, and can't go longer than 2 hours with one on.
Too much thinking here. Humans are animals with organic bodies and animal standards for interaction. Anything sticking out draws attention and creates a specific look. That can be antlers, horns, long ears, a beard, a penis, breasts, or nipples. Dogs and cats have nipples with no breasts per se, and females can be spotted from their naked nipple spots. Males can be spotted from their genitals.
Not news. Humans choose to draw attention to unique bits or not. In a business all should focus on the job, be it mortgages, or selling things, or building houses, or stuffing oranges into boxes, or writing reports. No one should care about it the unique stuff, but they will because anything unique draws attention.
So, what side are you on here, prof?
You brag a lot about hanging your ass out a mini-skirt when you were in high school. Defying the principal turned you on.
I have the feeling that when you were young, you had hot T&A and believed as my late wife did: “If you’ve got it, flaunt it.”
High school is the professional office environment. The cliques are just meaner in the office and the work is twice as meaningless and stupid.
My wife was always of the opinion that the prude girls’ real motive was jealousy of the attention she got from men. She wanted the prude girls to shut up and get out of the way so that the men could admire her.
Your post made me think of a great quote by Michael Stipe (former lead singer of R.E.M.)
"[The video collection, Pop Screen,] includes the uncensored version of "Pop Song 89," which has three topless women dancing along with a topless Michael Stipe. In preparation for television airings, MTV asked Stipe, who directed it himself, to censor the three topless women. Instead, Stipe superimposed black bars on the chests of all four dancers, himself included, and stated, "a nipple is a nipple.""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_Screen
This reminded me that what was most commented on with "alarm" about the Canadian shop teacher who wore extraordinarily sized breast prosthetics were the large nipples visible. The scolds on Fox and Gutfeld couldn't stop pointing them out (pun unintended).
The only thing that makes this "unprofessional" is that it is societally unfamiliar. One can learn not to take notice. On the other hand, a woman who does not take precautions should not be permitted to take offense when her protuberances are noticed by sight but go politely unremarked.
Your post reminds me of a great quote from Michael Stipe (former lead singer of R.E.M.) ...
"[The video collection, Pop Screen,] includes the uncensored version of "Pop Song 89," which has three topless women dancing along with a topless Michael Stipe. In preparation for television airings, MTV asked Stipe, who directed it himself, to censor the three topless women. Instead, Stipe superimposed black bars on the chests of all four dancers, himself included, and stated, "a nipple is a nipple."" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_Screen
THis is why I often unzip my fly at work, and let my penis out to breathe. If anyone complains. I just say "question your judgments" and "The human body is beautiful".
Amadeus 48 said...
"Nipples of women are a distraction and will entice the male gaze every single time."
Only while they are rare. I will admit to being distracted in 10th grade English where some of my female classmates who had had a growth spurt over the summer were still wearing their 9th grade sweaters, but this quickly became unremarkable for all but the most juvenile. Part of maturing is learning not to be controlled by your baser instincts all the time. Humans have extraordinary ability to become inured to many stimuli be it sound, smell, or sight, even touch.
Your post reminds me of a great quote by Michael Stipe (former lead singer of R.E.M.) ...
[The video compilation, Pop Screen,] includes the uncensored version of "Pop Song 89," which has three topless women dancing along with a topless Michael Stipe. In preparation for television airings, MTV asked Stipe, who directed it himself, to censor the three topless women. Instead, Stipe superimposed black bars on the chests of all four dancers, himself included, and stated, "a nipple is a nipple." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_Screen
Kevin said...
"In a professional environment men don't show nipples either."
As Trump memorably tweeted:
"Barney Frank looked disgusting --nipples protruding-- in his blue shirt before Congress. Very very disrespectful."
Women need to stop pretending that their nipples shouldn't be attractive to heterosexual men, or that men are pigs for noticing them.
Its a denial of reality. It's also heterophobic.
I saw Nipples Of Women open for Interrogated Judgments at The Shame Factory last summer.
Total downer of a show.
"Fuck the professional office. What a sadistic, nightmare environment. It’s just a place to make money."
Well, to be honest, that is the sole intended (and fundamental) purpose of any business office.
The rollicking offices of yore you seem to relish presented a covertly (or overtly) predatory environment where men felt free to express verbally and physically their sexual interest in their female colleagues or subordinates, where women--willing and unwilling--were leered at, whistled at, and even physically touched or fondled. There may well have been (and be) women who were/are at ease (or even happy) receiving such sexual attention from their male colleagues or superiors--as you describe women bending over to display their decolletage--but there are plenty who are not. To protect those who do not enjoy such attention, such behavior must be prohibited in the office entirely. Office colleagues who develop mutual attractions may always act on their attraction outside the office.
Nipples exist. Sometimes, they are erect beneath clothing. The human body is not shameful. It’s a perfectly natural thing.
Yes, nothing shameful about the human body. And there's nothing shameful or unnatural in being interested or aroused by nipples, dicks or whatever turns you on.
But a professional office environment should minimize exposure to parts of the body that arouses people. So blouses with deep cleavage and codpieces are inappropriate for an office.
"You are imposing your judgment on their bodies."
Isn't the male gaze part of male bodies? Why be so judgmental about that?
"question your own judgments. That's something we should do more often."
Funny, coming from Althouse.
“male nipples are on display everywhere.”
Really? Not in any workplace I’ve been in.
Jacob: The war between the sexes is over. We won the second women started doing pole dancing for exercise.
Farrah Fawcett. Every poster of her. Go watch TV shows from that era.
This generation is circumspect in comparison. Fake letter.
Actually I'm always a little weirded out by seeing male nipples protruding out under shirts. Get an undershirt!
Is it that people — some people — have the idea that when female nipples are visible through clothing, what is being seen is an erection? Gay writes: "Nipples exist. Sometimes, they are erect beneath clothing. The human body is not shameful. It’s a perfectly natural thing." If male erections were on display everywhere, you wouldn't blithely intone The human body is not shameful. It’s a perfectly natural thing.
These biological drives are hardwired.
The people pushing this bullshit pretending that female nipples are not specifically distracting are trying to tear the bonds between men and women apart.
If you want to be treated like a sex object you act like a sex object.
If you want to be treated like a professional you act like a professional.
These people are training women to put their nipples in front of men knowing the distraction this will cause and the damage to the social fabric that is inevitable. These signals are something men are hardwired to notice. A man will treat a woman differently if he thinks she is sexually receptive and/or offering sex as part of any social interaction.
But at this point I think we all know the motives of these people are not good.
Enigma said...
Too much thinking here. Humans are animals with organic bodies and animal standards for interaction. Anything sticking out draws attention and creates a specific look. That can be antlers, horns, long ears, a beard, a penis, breasts, or nipples. Dogs and cats have nipples with no breasts per se, and females can be spotted from their naked nipple spots. Males can be spotted from their genitals.
Not news. Humans choose to draw attention to unique bits or not. In a business all should focus on the job, be it mortgages, or selling things, or building houses, or stuffing oranges into boxes, or writing reports. No one should care about it the unique stuff, but they will because anything unique draws attention.
+1
I am braless frequently as well, am right now in fact, but I always make sure to have a good undershirt on if I'm going to go out in public.
When it warms up and I go back to the office I'll wear my thinnest linen trousers with no underwear so everyone an get a nice clean look at the outline of my genitals (large & throbbing, naturally)--solidarity!
Hey, if you look that's "a you problem," ladies.
How can it be a hostile work environment?? My visible erection means I'm excited and happy-nothing hostile about that! Bodies are bodies, stop being so transphobic, or something.
All time classic Trump tweet from 2011:
Barney Frank looked disgusting--nipples protruding--in his blue shirt before Congress. Very very disrespectful.
Very very disrespectful
"Women are not imposing their nipples on you by existing, braless, in public spaces. You are imposing your judgment on their bodies."
Men are not imposing their genitals on you by existing without pants or underwear in public spaces. That having been said, yeah sure we should try not to look at something in front of us.
Do people who write such things never consider the simple basic question of how *else* one could apply that argument?
Now apply this reasoning to cameltoes, which due to the prevalence of gym wear, are on display in many public settings, including the retail and service industries.
Doesn't this depend upon the size of the breasts/nipples?
Must do more research...
The rollicking offices of yore you seem to relish presented a covertly (or overtly) predatory environment where men felt free to express verbally and physically their sexual interest in their female colleagues or subordinates, where women--willing and unwilling--were leered at, whistled at, and even physically touched or fondled.
Sure did. And the women in my life loved that shit.
What kind of ugly, frigid women do you deal with? You have my pity. You’re fucked up in even more serious ways than I thought.
Run around half naked and complain if people stare. Makes perfect sense and shows a good understanding of human nature
This article and Althouse’s comments are really about the jealousy of old and unattractive women for young, hot women.
Notice that it’s always the young women who are showing their nipples. Because they want the men to look!
This just leaped out at me after I thought about it. Yeah, the old and ugly don’t want the competition and they don’t want the young and hot to enjoy their youth. Same old. Same old.
In the work environment, it is a distraction. Distractions are counterproductive. It's not rocket surgery.
Roxanne,
You don't have to turn up those head lights.
Women's fashion intentionally focuses on breasts, butts and legs. Women eagerly seek out the fashions they believe put them in the best light. This story is women censoring women. Why can't women have choice?
As always, Women dress for other women.
“Hey, you know what's "unprofessional"? Staring at nipples!”
Well, I guess that settles it… I will continue my amateur standing.
Hey, you know what's "unprofessional"? Staring at nipples!
Women want both to attract sexual attention to enjoy the feeling of power they get from disciplining men who look at them.
Relevant illustration.
Modesty is an interesting topic. What excites men is more often the hint of something forbidden. In the Victorian age, showing a little ankle was a bridge too far. Showing a bare shoulder was risque. In Muslim cultures a woman showing her hair might incite lust. In island cultures 300 years ago bare breasts was not a concern. Once G3rmany makes all places topless, most Germans will stop staring because it is not enticing any more. It will increase tourism, though. Perky nipples showing is a forbidden in our society. Free the nipple and it will stop being as interesting, and attention will move somewhere else. It is interesting how the left, the believers in science, seem to not understand how men are wired.
If women had $100 bills pinned to their chest, men would notice that too. If you baked cookies in the office, would you tell people not to notice the smell? If you make something conspicuous that is generally not, it gets noticed. As others have stated, some women know this and use it to their advantage. Other women are jealous and berate the perky women or the men.
The only rule is, look, but don't touch (or in the case of cookies, smell but don't eat.) You don't want men to look? Dress in such a fashion that they notice your eyes.
I don't think I have ever been able to avoid staring at a women's nipples, if they were on display. Although I did manage to learn to do it covertly, sometime after the age of 40.
Women must believe that the fact that young men think about sex all the time is a matter of choice, rather than biology.
The war between the sexes is over. We won the second women started doing pole dancing for exercise.
With social progress, women... uh, persons with wombs (PTW), are retained as breeders for couplets seeking personal affirmation. With social progress, PTWs are kept affordable, available, and taxable. Take a knee, beg, VP. #YouToo
But it makes perfect sense to say: question your own judgments. That's something we should do more often.
==========
question >> morphs into > critique > critical >> reject definitions > wasteland
One doesn't have to wonder what Roxane would say about people who question Darwin, so why does she insist that human nature--particularly male nature--is artificially constructed?
Free the nipple, especially in cold offices. !!!
No bras and high heels. Come on, quit fooling yourself, you are trolling. And thank you.
No bras and high heels. Come on, quit fooling yourself, you are trolling. And thank you.
You are imposing your judgment on their bodies.
Sure am. I was a techie, but back in the day (meaning before I retired), when t came to winning new business I was a rainmaker. So go complain to HR about my looking at your nipples. They aren’t going to fire me, because if I can make it rain for this company, I can make it rain at my next one. On the other hand, if you bitch loud enough, you might be the one getting counseling.
When I was in college many many years ago (let's say I could have been in 'That 70's Show') it was the braless period! Many a young college girl wore no bra.. I had mighty fine time standing there registering for classes, I tell you that!
Boobs abounded back then!
If they wanna show 'em now, fine with me.
But remember that silly video of Obama at the front of an airplne cabin with an obvious erection? The giggling from the female press corps!
===
how come Republican Congress did not Specila Counsel to probe priapic[st] dispaly
Robert Cook said...
"Fuck the professional office. What a sadistic, nightmare environment. It’s just a place to make money."
Well, to be honest, that is the sole intended (and fundamental) purpose of any business office.
The rollicking offices of yore you seem to relish presented a covertly (or overtly) predatory environment where men felt free to express verbally and physically their sexual interest in their female colleagues or subordinates, where women--willing and unwilling--were leered at, whistled at, and even physically touched or fondled. There may well have been (and be) women who were/are at ease (or even happy) receiving such sexual attention from their male colleagues or superiors--as you describe women bending over to display their decolletage--but there are plenty who are not. To protect those who do not enjoy such attention, such behavior must be prohibited in the office entirely. Office colleagues who develop mutual attractions may always act on their attraction outside the office.
This is an entirely sensible statement.
If you want a professional environment you suppress unprofessional activity and vise versa.
If you want an environment where women act in a suggestive manner to attract male notice and approval and use this as leverage for advancement then lower clothing requirements.
If you want an environment where people get work done and are judged on their competence and productivity require professional attire.
Our hostess said:
"Hey, you know what's "unprofessional"? Staring at nipples!"
Man, talk about judgmental! I personally love staring at nipples, particularly female nipples, especially on a chilly day or in a chilly office environment. I think it's a perky way to lighten up the day regardless of whether our hostess or anyone else considers it "unprofessional". If a person can't bear the staring, get a padded bra and congratulate yourself on your "professionalism".
Save the nipples!
"Amy's breasts should've won the Oscar for Best Actress that year, just saying."
Correction. Actually, they should've won best un-supporting actress that year.
"question" or "interrogate"?
Synonyms with different connotations. "Interrogate" has academic and investigative connotations, but it also has the connotation of a more thorough inquiry than is associated with the word "question". The word isn't necessarily pompous or pseudo.
Here at the Chinese law school where I am teaching, the women students all wear bras. But they also wear tight clothes, sometime with low necklines. And they are mostly thin and fit by American standards, no muffin tops or fatties, so there’s plenty of beautiful scenery to enjoy even if there are no nipples on display. And by the way, I can report that the binary is strong in China.
Ban the Bra redux.
Men notice erect nipples for much the same reason women notice tumescence in a man's pants. It just works that way. The 70s, in particular, were a stimulating time in the office.
Women at work stared at my boners, why shouldn't I stare at their breasteses?
The best argument I ever heard for professional dress and decorum at work came from a fiercely feminist lesbian colleague in the library. Anything else is a distraction, and on campus there was enough of that for all tastes already.
This has nothing to to do with why men like to keep the air conditioning set much lower than women in the office.
Well I’m off to the grocery. I need to checkout the frozen food aisle.
"But it makes perfect sense to say: question your own judgments. That's something we should do more often."
OK, ask yourself; Did someone actually write that letter and mail it to that freak at the NYT? Or did she write it herself? What makes you think so?
"My best friend is a 40-year-old woman. She complained to me the other day about how the younger women at her gym wore very revealing clothes with plenty of nipples open to view by all."
What's the name of that gym? Asking for a friend.
Just google Ms Chokesondick
"Part of maturing is learning not to be controlled by your baser instincts all the time."
Oops.
Whenever a female colleague leans over and displays her cleavage to me, I ask myself, "Is the juice worth the squeeze?"
"Codpiece." Thanks Amexpat.
I've never been a nudist, but somehow this post makes me think of nudist camps. We are told that men aren't constantly getting erections there, it's not all about sex, etc. So a nice warm day: no erect penises, no erect nipples. The sky becomes overcast, there's a cool breeze. Nipples become erect: one, then two, then three, no sorry, two then four then six. As this wave of popping spreads, it becomes noticeable that penises begin to respond. Maybe time for some little jokes (as women reach for sweaters): I think I like it better when the breeze comes up, sorry sorry.
The workplace: we used to get warnings that in order to save energy, the A/C would be kept on the warm side. Some adjustment in clothing may be appropriate, but nothing too attention-getting. Me: so I can't wear Speedo trunks and a tank top to the office? My female boss: they're not worried about men, they're worried about women with spaghetti straps and thongs showing.
Headline: "Womyn Bitches About something"
Emmy for best continuing nipples in a comedy: Jen Aniston, Friends
Emmy for best guest nipples in a sitcom episode: Marilu Henner, Taxi, "Come as You Aren't"
To the women out there wanting to display their secondary sexual characteristics, their breasts, or just their nipples, at work, or even their primary ones, don’t be surprised when men automatically treat you as a sex object, and not a contributing worker in the office or member of the team. The guys notice. They don’t try. It just happens, naturally, and automatically. We are very visual, apparently much more so than women, when it comes to sexual stimulation. We see them as a sexual signal, react automatically, then think “oh, wait! HR is going to get pissy if I am not the one she is exhibiting her sexuality for, and I get caught looking”. You then look away, just to catch yourself later sneaking glances. Males are simple in this respect - we think sex, when we see a sexual lure. And when we are thinking sex, with a woman, we aren’t thinking about how good she is at her job (unless that is her job), but rather sex.
Luckily, my daughter learned this from an early age. Her mother never had a problem being noticed for her abilities at work. She kept her sexuality under strict control at work, and it paid off. Our daughter does the same. She works with mostly male engineers, and is well respected for her knowledge and expertise. Mostly, they just call her The Doctor (for her PhD), and accept that she is usually right. My partner, with an almost perfect body, did the same - the only time you ever saw her breasts was when out for the evening with her committed partner/husband. She does it to complement them, and woe be to any other guys sniffing around her when dressed that way, when she was younger. First husband was just a little big, but violently possessive in public, and the second was just massive. The rest of the time, at work, or around town, she wore a bra, high necked sweaters and shirts, modest length skirts, or slacks, etc.
Pretending that males can just turn off their sexual side, is just wishful thinking. If you want to be taken as a professional, act like it, and turn off the sexual lures. I understand that Ann didn’t understand that when she was in high school. I didn’t understand it either, and I had to deal, every day, with the girls in my classes flaunting their sexual lures at every male in the room, distracting me from what I was supposed to be doing. The thing that finally saved me in college was a live in girlfriend, where visions of doing overwhelmed any thoughts of doing it with other women.
It's not just the nipple, though. The nipple is attached to a breast which, when freed, moves in a way that attracts male attention. The first function of a breast and its attendant nipple is to arouse mating interest in the opposite sex. To "free" them to move and be seen is to make an overtly sexual initiative in the office environment.
You want to free the nipple or shake your booty? Do it in a place where inciting mating interest is deemed appropriate. Otherwise, quit trying to control other peoples' behaviors. If you are freeing your nipples you are engaging in mating behavior. Quit shaming people for responding to your initiative.
Now I’m confused.
But I’m thinking that the first guy that shows up at the office wearing a Speedo and a tank top is going to get a visit from HR.
Reminds me of more than once encountering a well-endowed young woman -- in person or in a photo -- wearing a too-small tee shirt with the legend "my eyes are up here".
Just more feminist passive-aggressive anti-male propaganda.
As are the whole braless kerfuffle.
Hey, you know what's "unprofessional"? Staring at nipples!
As Gay puts it: "Women are not imposing their nipples on you by existing, braless, in public spaces. You are imposing your judgment on their bodies."
Oh bullshit.
If I walked around work with a hard-on, there would be complaints to HR, and the HR response would NOT be "how dare you impose your female gaze on his body!"
And it shouldn't be.
It is not unprofessional, unethical, or immoral for me to look at what you chose to show.
Either everyone gets choice, or no one gets it. if you have the right to show off your nipples, I have the right to look. And to comment.
I dont' control you. You don't control me
Guys, talk to me after a 12-hour work day during which there's no option to loosen your very snugly tied tie (I'm not even going to address the t-shirt-to-cover-nipples vs. bra "comparison"). Pretend it has wire in it around your entire neck, although I've never heard of such a torture tie. Actually, talk to me on a Saturday evening after running errands all day and you haven't been wearing a tie. Why is is it every woman's responsibility to ensure men aren't sexually distracted, especially when there is plenty of evidence that bras really aren't that good for your ta-tas? When there's no control over size of ta-tas, or how often/why a woman has headlights (those nipple covers STILL don't work for some of us - the brights are always on and they are practically infrared)? But here we are again, dressing in an attempt not to appeal to a man's apparently uncontrollable sexual gaze, and it's something my kid and I both have to think about even though she's not old enough to know the vocabulary to talk about it. And by the way, (a) at least in my mind, men's nipples are not "sexy" per se so any staring is more a function of the man's perceived violation of societal norms, which admittedly also makes no sense, and (b) the above comment about 11-in-12 women wanting men to look at their boobs is hilarious at best.
This may be off topic but I can remember when women would ask "Does this make my butt look big?" Currently the correct answer is "yes".
"question your own judgments. That's something we should do more often."
Says the woman who's judging men for looking at that which is flaunted.
The way we know someone actually "questions [her] own judgments" is that she doesn't aim any of them at others.
This is like that whole "you may not say things that make me feel at risk of harm!" If that were an actual principle, then the person saying it wouldn't be allowed to say it, because that position makes me feel at risk for harm.
Both are lines that are solely uttered by bullies who wish to silence those they disagree with, rather than being forced to engage in actual debate, and actually defend and justify their positions.
"Fuck the professional office. What a sadistic, nightmare environment. It’s just a place to make money."
Well, to be honest, that is the sole intended (and fundamental) purpose of any business office.
Hahaha, well said, Robert Cook!
Normalized: women dress as they see fit, men watch as they see fit.
I'm old enough to remember the nippled manikins of the 70's proudly displaying their beepers through their sweaters, as if the sweaters couldn't even keep a manikin warm.
Nipples are like cleavage. If women didn’t want them looked at, they wouldn’t put them on display.
You know what they say:
"Once you've seen one woman's nipples, you want to see all of them."
But remember that silly video of Obama at the front of an airplane cabin with an obvious erection?
Barack or Michelle?
(I'll show myself out)
Why is is it every woman's responsibility to ensure men aren't sexually distracted,
Biology.
"What kind of ugly, frigid women do you deal with?"
Well adjusted women with pride in themselves and the well-founded assumption they should not have to fend off or tolerate unasked for sexual attention from their male colleagues or superiors. I don't doubt there are women who are happy to receive such attention, and I do not think less of them for it. But, many do not welcome such attention, and it should not be an issue they even have to think about, much less deal with, at work.
You are the kind of crude lout who would assume women who don't welcome such attention are "ugly" and "frigid."
SEH--you need to buy your shirts 1/2 inch bigger in the neck.
Seen on a t-shirt:
The thing I look for in a woman is a good heart. It's not my fault the heart is behind her breasts.
I had a rather well endowed woman on my staff. One grade below me. She frequently had her top button undone. And she leaned WAY over my desk when she wanted to talk to me.
I avoided staring to the best of my ability - better than I thought possible.
She got a promotion. Equal rank me never had that temptation presented again.
Someone wanna 'spain to me how Cook's "unasked for sexual attention" squares with gravid, pneumatic and nubile females parading around with their nipples on display?
WHY IS IT that females do that---and wear micro-miniskirts, for example----OTHER THAN to ask for sexual attention?
To me, it's a lot like the assless chaps gays wear in their "I'm Proud I Suck Dick" parades.
Nearly a hundred posts and no one has mentioned the famous Althouse midnight law review photo.
JSM
SEH said...
Why is is it every woman's responsibility to ensure men aren't sexually distracted,
1: You are responsible for the easily foreseeable consequences of your actions
2: Sexually distracted men are less intelligent, therefore less functional workers
3: Why do male workers have a legal obligation not to make female workers uncomfortable? Having answered that, now explain why it's ok for female workers to make male workers uncomfortable.
So, you come to work flashing your nipples, you make a significant number of your co-workers less productive, you bring sex to work, thus making sexual harassment complaints more likely
Why wouldn't any rational employer fire you, assuming they could come up with a reason they couldn't be sued for?
"Someone wanna 'spain to me how Cook's 'unasked for sexual attention' squares with gravid, pneumatic and nubile females parading around with their nipples on display?"
I think you've watched too many 80s teen sex movies or read too many Penthouse Magazine letter columns, replete with (made-up) "I never thought such a thing would happen to me, until...etc.," tales recounting spontaneous sexual encounters initiated by "gravid, pneumatic and nubile females parading around with their nipples on display" that soon led to the stripping off of all clothes and inhibitions.
That kind of shit happens more often in lies and fantasies than in real life.
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