"It was too abstract, with no visual correlations. This is true for many of today’s students who get labeled as bad at math, students who might otherwise pass alternative math courses such as statistics that would also apply to real-life work situations. There is too much emphasis in school on testing and not enough on career outcomes. The fact that I failed the SAT in math prohibited me from getting into veterinary school, but today I am a university professor in animal sciences and I am invited to speak to groups of veterinarians to advise them on their work.... [W]e need a neurodiverse work force. Complementary skills are the key to successful teams.... In Italy and the Netherlands, for instance, a student at about age 14 decides whether to go the university route or the vocational route. The vocational route is not looked down on or regarded as a lesser form of intelligence. And that’s how it should be everywhere...."
Writes Temple Grandin in "Society Is Failing Visual Thinkers, and That Hurts Us All" (NYT).
পোস্টগুলি
১৩৩টি মন্তব্য:
F-Off. You were lazy. Algebra? GTFO.
In Italy and the Netherlands, for instance, a student at about age 14 decides whether to go the university route or the vocational route.
Why the hell should your life be determined at 14?
As for the abstraction of algebra, I've seen a decent argument for pushing geometry ahead of algebra, as once you understand the former, it makes it easier to understand some of the latter concepts.
That's odd. usually anyone intelligent to be a vet, can pass HS Algebra. Of course, some people just have a block when it comes to even moderately difficult math courses.
I'm sympathetic, even though I did well in math. I'm still trying to figure out what use my Geometry class was. And all I remember is: The shortest distance between two points is straight line and something about triangles. And the sum of the square of the hypotenus (sic).
Completely useless.
Wait, I thought they did a lot of graphing in algebra now? Why do kids need graphing calculators? That's pretty visual.
And if you can't pass algebra I doubt you can pass statistics.
And the Euro kid who goes the vocational route cannot be a professor, right? I mean that's kinda out?
So much wrong here.
Anyway. "Neurodivergent" lol. People got more damned excuses now.
"Society Is Failing Visual Thinkers, and That Hurts Us All"
In general, aspects of intelligence are highly correlated, though of course individual cases may differ.
Peterson did an interview w/her about this.
2awesomely brilliant people, like diamonds: w/different cuts.
That said, algebra should not be required for HS graduation. That's a new thing
As it is we'd be lucky to get graduates who can do basic math.
Haha: just going down the posts and the one below this has diamonds in its heading:0)
How the heck does this guy expect people to get a handle on the pronoun plethora coming our way without more abstract... concatenational skills?
We need more abstract thinking in order to get a handle on quotes like AOC's, for example: "I think that there’s a lot of people more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right."
We need to add, not subtract, abstract.
You cannot do statistics without algebra. Once I read something like that, the entire piece goes in the trash bin
Statistics are much more abstract than algebra, with far fewer visual cues.
Most of the rest of what he said is correct.
>"students who might otherwise (than algebra) pass alternative math courses such as statistics that would also apply to real-life work situations."<
Grandin is certainly not the first person to state this falsehood, that algebra doesn't apply to real life. It always kind of makes me grind my teeth when I hear it. It surely always comes exclusively from those who (like her, as she herself admits) never understood algebra. For those who did understand it (and, like me, loved it), it is quite useful day to day. I not infrequently use simple algebra to figure mundane problems out. And I am absolutely certain that I am not alone on that in this group.
Failing at stuff as you find your way through life is just part of the deal.
The entire world doesn’t need re-arrangement so that you don’t experience disappointment.
The purpose of the failures is to inform you you’re on the wrong path.
Do you have to pass every subject -- in particular, algebra -- in order to graduate from high school?
Could Temple Grandin not get even a "D" grade in algebra?
Don't take this personally, René Descartes. You did what you could.
If you try to think about pronouns in visual, concrete terms, you could go crazy.
Don't knock abstract, you are going to need it soon enough. (See schoolboards parent teacher curricula battles)
Algebra is not that hard. He obviously is a chronic complainer and perfect for todays "higher" education.
I am not sure what the requirements are to graduate from high school.
I think, though, that if you can't do algebra well, then you will be put in a "bonehead algebra" class, and if you just show up for most of your classes, then you'll get at least a "D" grade, which will suffice to graduate from high school.
Algebra is very useful. You should at least try to learn a few basics.
A 14-year old making a decision that will affect their entire lives. Cool. And, if they decide to go the "university route" and can't get in? Isn't it more accurate to say that school counselors decide at a young age who is "good enough" to join their ranks and who should be a barista?
He’s not a visual thinker; he’s a person with no ability to reason abstractly. There is a place in modern society for people like that, but I question whether a professorship — of any sort — is that place.
"[W]e need a neurodiverse work force. "
Does that include people who are not on the left?
Diversity of individuals, minority of one.
I didn't really grasp Algebra or trig until I was on the shop floor and could see how it worked.
A vet that 'can't get' math?
Or just say Doctor. Innumeracy would be crippling and deadly to basic patient care.
The vocational route is not looked down on or regarded as a lesser form of intelligence.
Oh, nonsense! It most-certainly is. It's just that Europe has historically been more comfortable with sorting kids by intellectual levels/scholastic achievement (as have Japan, Korea, and China) than the US has been.
That this sorting happens unapologetically doesn't mean that the losers in the sorting process don't get hurt.
More trade schools.
Fewer government patronage jobs...
"The vocational route is not looked down on or regarded as a lesser form of intelligence."
Ah, Temple, would that it t'were true! (Anglo-Americans have been romanticizing Italian culture for centuries.) In the halls of IIalian academe, I am confident there is much looking down upon non-credentialed vocations.
The 2010 HBO movie made about Temple Grandin some years ago starring Claire Danes is wonderful!
"How the heck does this guy expect people to get a handle on the pronoun plethora coming our way without more abstract... concatenational skills?"
Temple Grandin is a woman and she is autistic.
"Algebra is not that hard. He obviously is a chronic complainer and perfect for todays "higher" education."
Temple Grandin is a woman and she is autistic.
"He’s not a visual thinker; he’s a person with no ability to reason abstractly. There is a place in modern society for people like that, but I question whether a professorship — of any sort — is that place."
Temple Grandin is a woman and she is autistic.
I'm stunned that so many people obviously have no idea who Dr. Grandin or what she's achieved in her life. For the record, she's autistic yet has a very impressive string of accomplishments. Officially one of my heroes.
HBO made a biopic about her. Check it out (or just go to here Wikipedia page) before you assume things about her based on who you are or how you are. What ever you think, she's brilliant and as close to unique as I can imagine.
Passing Algebra is required for graduation in many school systems. As a former high school teacher, I am 99% sure that Temple Grandin would have graduated in one of those systems. When it became obvious that she wasn't going to pass no matter how many times she repeated the course, she would have been put in a special math class or given tutoring. In that class, for each unit, there would have been repeated practice of a limited range of problems. Then, a test with the same problems but different numbers. Then on to the next unit, never to see the previous unit's problems again. This ensures that anyone who actually tries gets a passing grade.
High schools hate when students don't graduate. I have heard numerous teachers say, "I couldn't bear to fail X. You can't do anything without a high school diploma."
Temple Grandin is a unique thinker and has one groundbreaking work in the animal husbandry field. She describes herself as autistic. She does not downgrade or dismiss abstract mathematical thought or abilities; her point is that many people like herself can make important contributions despite and even because of their “visual” rather than abstract mode of seeing the world.
Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. Algebra should remain a basic requirement in American schools. I simply do not believe that an individual with the ability to earn an advanced degree in a science cannot pass algebra. I do question the practice of pushing advanced math students into calculus, a course of study which few will use in "real life"; I think statistics is for more valuable. I think it is great to point out how there is no stigma in certain countries associated with vocational training (as opposed to pursuing a college degree). I do not think we should expect 14 year olds to make a decision (vocational/college) that will significantly impact future career options . . .
With regards to the 'decision at 14 years': if you look at it through the US education system, then it doesn't make sense. However, by such an age, the education system and you as an individual should have a good idea of what you are good and not, and what you like and don't.
The school resources are, and should be, constrained enough that they cannot teach people who have zero aptitude for a given subject. Play to the students strengths.
I did fine in algebra, but I never really understood the underlying concepts. I knew how to do the work and get the grades, but none of it stuck. Was there a teaching method that would've sparked my learning? When I hear my husband talk about calculus I wish I had found a way to understand math that led me further.
Gee......when did the SAT start breaking out math scores?
" I'm still trying to figure out what use my Geometry class was. And all I remember is: The shortest distance between two points is straight line and something about triangles. And the sum of the square of the hypotenus (sic).
Completely useless."
I just built a deck. The Pythagorean theorem was mighty handy.
Basic algebra is a requirement to get a high school diploma. As it should be. We don't excuse people from being able to read because they find reading difficult. Ms. Brandin is an interesting person who is well-versed in animal psychology. But veterinary science requires mathematics. We can't all be something just because we want to be.
I wouldn't let the stupid sonofabitch anywhere near my dog.
1) Temple is a woman not a man.
2) Temple is on the autism/Achberger spectrum.
3) Higher education in Europe and much of Asia is seen as a privilege to be earned, not a basic right for all.
4) As a high school teacher, I can tell you that for the vast majority of people, it is pretty clear at 14 if your future is academic or vocational, especially in a system where you know the right to higher education has to be earned.
5) Separating the vocational and academic tracks provides benefits to both groups of students.
Wibble said...
As for the abstraction of algebra, I've seen a decent argument for pushing geometry ahead of algebra, as once you understand the former, it makes it easier to understand some of the latter concepts.
In fact, for most of two millennia, Euclid's Geometry WAS math. Admittedly it's more difficult to move past geometric proofs to calculus. Algebra is sort of the gateway drug for those susceptible to hard-core math addictions. But a sense of proportions and relations and logical progressions is valuable even if -- either in geometry OR algebra -- no actual quantifiable numbers are involved. And unknown X can be understood to get "more" or "less" in relation to other components "a" and "b" whether X is the area of a polygon or the squared term in a quadratic equation.
Temple Grandin had a very bad math teacher, I guess.
We live in a relatively affluent suburban school district with student population of over 20,000. The student to guidance counselor ratio in high school is about 400:1. So, there is very little that the high school does around career counseling or even college major guidance. Here are the courses we offer - pick from these and good luck in college.
The schools don't tech many subjects that are different than when I was in HS 40 years ago. Locked in to subjects/methods by the teacher unions and school board. Teacher pay is based on years of service and not subject matter (kids had a great HS math teacher that left to pursue other career opporunities as having a maters in math and 5 years experience paid 1/2 of what the 25 years of experience paid the elementary school music teacher).
You shouldn't have to make a career decision at 14 - but at $30-60K a year for college - taking a couple extra years of college to find yourself is not doable for most without taking on high levels of debt.
My wife has a business assisting middle school and HS students explore interests and careers to make more effective college and jojor choices. She also works closely with local career/tech (formerly vocation education) schools in marketing their programs. Career Tech still carries a stigma that it is not for the college bound students but many in our area have programs in cyber security, programming, computer networking, dental/medical/etc. Not all auto shop and woodworking. A good way to get introduced to other options. Our daughter did a digital design program is HS for 1/2 day and 1/2 day at the local community college for core courses (college credit plus program in our state). She is in her second year of college and will graduate in 3 years due to the credts she carried in from both programs.
It is not just the required subjects - but in many ways our educational systems are not preparing students for the society in which they will be living. . .
I read “Thinking in Pictures” when it came out in 1995. I thought Temple Grandin was too famous to require an explanation!
Hasn't the whole "I don't get this because I'm a visual learner" thing long since been debunked? It always seemed like crap to me. Not that there aren't different styles of learning, but such gross oversimplification seems to just lead to excuses and dead ends. There is nothing in high school algebra that can't be at least successfully regurgitated, if not understood, with a little bit of hard work. True for most college calculus as well. In fact, I'd say the core concepts of statistics (i.e. what exactly does a p-value mean) requires more abstract thinking and deeper understanding than the basics of algebra.
Well shit, I had a very long, erudite, witty, and clever response, but Blogger gave me an error when I hit post and now it's all gone. Shorter version - as someone who's taught algebra and statistics at all levels, I think this argument is crap.
Algebra is taught abstractly and that is a mistake. Virtually all math can be taught using applications. If knowledge is not concretized is is not real knowledge. It is not really understood.
I was lost in calculus until the teacher showed that the area under a curve represented a useful real life application. And that area could only be calculated with calculus.
Temple Grandin is autistic. Autistic people’s brains are “wired” differently from an average person. Autistic people may visualize things in shapes or colors in solving problems that average people like me and most commenters here can’t comprehend. I am the father of a son who is autistic. He, too, struggled with Algebra in school and needed a special needs teacher to help him in and out of class along from Mrs. Scott and me. I aced Algebra at all levels in middle and high school as well as college. Yet, my son handled Geometry with an ease that stunned me as I struggled mightily in high school with that subject to where I was happy that I was able to get the grade of “C” that the teacher gave me. As someone who has experienced seeing my child go through what Temple Grandin is talking about with Algebra and Geometry, cut her some slack and don’t criticize her. She earned her Ph.D the hard way and wasn’t given it as some form of “equity” as some now appear to be earning theirs at woke colleges and universities these days.
Michael Faraday was notoriously bad at math. It took a James Clerk Maxwell to formulate his discoveries and laws.
I think you can probably pass a stats course without knowing algebra. Depends on the course, obviously. Most stuff you can just plug into SAS/SPSS/Stata/etc. and get results.
Doesn't mean it's a terribly valuable 'pass' though. . . ..
It appears to me that some of the commenters on this blog post have referred to Temple Grandin as a male. Temple is an autistic woman. I have seen her give a speech when she came to my town 5 years and, yes, I can verify that she is autistic and a woman.
"In Italy and the Netherlands, for instance, a student at about age 14 decides whether to go the university route or the vocational route."
I'm not sure that European students actually decide that as much as their parents and school counselors do. I'm ambivalent at best about the relative finality of the European system for putting young teenagers into tracks that are much less flexible than American academic tracks.
On the other hand, I have a feeling that there is a historically high percentage of Americans in their thirties who have no idea what they want to do.
About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot of news,
With many cheerful facts about the square on the hypotenuse.
Surely, the educational system is flexible enough to provide opportunities for people like Temple Grandin, without dumbing it down for the rest of the pupils. Some people used to get through high school with just arithmetic or business math, and probably some people still do in vocational academies, since not every job requires algebra or calculus.
But I wonder, what happens when autistic persons who can't do complicated math meet autistic persons who can only do complicated math and not much else?
"The vocational route is not looked down on or regarded as a lesser form of intelligence."
That's good because if you want to be a pipefitter, you're going to have to understand algebra.
What is needed is to get off the assembly line. First from Algebra on up, the big difficulty is that it is when kids are first introduced to formal abstract thinking. Few need quadratic equations in life, but the quadratic equations are the vehicle to teach the thinking skills. In the same vein, it isn't the western canon that is so important in the liberal arts, but the western canon is a sufficiently challenging body to use to teach students critical thought. The "ideas" they learn along the way have value but the well-beaten path of challenging concepts is what is of real benefit in learning how to work through challenging ideas.
So yes, "passing" Algebra is a stupid standard, but one that appeals to the unthinking minds that dominate education. Taking Algebra has value, being good at Algebra will lead some to higher maths. But failing Algebra only really signifies that that student is less adept at formalized abstraction but may excel in another area of thought/practice.
We now have the ability to have Algebra, all maths, to be taught by good teachers who understand the concepts rather than read them from the teacher's edition of the book. And have multiple teachers via multiple videos on the same concepts. Maths should not be taught by the random person in the front of the room but rather via individual work using videos, computer prompts and, perhaps it would be possible, talented teachers as coaches instead of unthinking lecturers.
But don't get your hopes up. The people who control these things did well in the way it is taught today and are quick to revert to 7th grade belittling of those who didn't find the abstraction of Algebra delightful from the first day.
And if there is anything we can learn from the constant rehashing of laments over education but the similarly constant lack of real change, after having been abused and beaten into compliance by the system, few if any are educated enough to question how they learned. After all, what if things could have been better and their life been better if taught differently.
A short acting out of a routine that gets to the heart of the job teachers are given. Make children know math against their will.
https://youtu.be/p35NoVBMucU
I hope that Dutch kid doesn't want to be a farmer.
rcocean said...
I'm still trying to figure out what use my Geometry class was.
In my opinion: Proofs. Step-by-step applications of rules/reasons forming the basis of a conclusion. The method applies to all logic, reason and argument.
Geometric proofs are given statements that prove a mathematical concept is true. In order for a proof to be proven true, it has to include multiple steps. These steps are made up of reasons and statements. There are many types of geometric proofs, including two-column proofs, paragraph proofs, and flowchart proofs.
Kate said...
I did fine in algebra, but I never really understood the underlying concepts. I knew how to do the work and get the grades, but none of it stuck. Was there a teaching method that would've sparked my learning? When I hear my husband talk about calculus I wish I had found a way to understand math that led me further.
*****************
YouTube ABOUNDS with short videos giving great explanations about algebra, geometry and calculus, their key concepts and methods.
Khan Academy offers many more on-line tutorials.
You just gotta know some math to make sense of the world.
My sister-in-law always cooks full recipes, rather than scale them down to enough for two or three people.
Why? Because she can't do the math.
So if one cup of rice requires 1 1/2 cup of water, and that feeds four people, how much rice and water are needed to cook for three ?
She can't do it.
Doing geometry first might help. I used to LOVE doing those little proofs with the triangles and SAS, SSS and whatever. You could SEE your way forward. And algebra...isn't that where you put lines on the x-y grid and move them around with slopes and coefficients and stuff? Again, very visual.
An integrated approach. Not sure why this is seen as huge obstacle to learning. Think of all the hours spent in school doing approximately nothing, doing the math might take a small fraction.
"In Italy and the Netherlands, for instance, a student at about age 14 decides whether to go the university route or the vocational route. The vocational route is not looked down on or regarded as a lesser form of intelligence."
That second sentence conflicts with everything I have ever heard, read or seen abut class structure in Europe. As well as human nature in general.
For what it's worth I've got both a Journeyman's Card and a BA.
How do you get through physics, chemistry or even genetics without algebra? There goes any kind of STEM major.
She probably got her lecturer position by virtue of reputation.
Geometry is sued evey day by trades people, though they don't call it that, they call it common sense. A carpenter who doesn't know and intuitively understand geometry isn't going to build a structurally sound building.
If you can't pass algebra, you can't pass a real statistics course. Try explaining the diference between mean and average to someone who doesn't know statistics. Not fun to do. Take 10 people, 9 get $100 for performing a specific task. 1 gets $1000. 90% get paid less then the average rate of $190, and the same 90% get paid the mean rate... Throw multiple factors in over time periods with variables thrown at you... Well, next tbhing you know you're saying that CO2 drives atmospheric warming and the suns variable output has nothing to do with it...
Went off track there for a second. Algebra is used every day by many people. Like carpenters who don't call what they do geomety, they don't call what they do algebra.
All forms of math can be pure, just pure math, studied for the beauty of math. If you think math is pure and beautiful. And yet almost all math has real world implications. I took calculus. I've never actually used it in my day to day work. But an understanding of it aids me me in understanding how some of my systems and equiment are designed the way they are.
When I see sentences beginning with "Society Is Failing".....some people or group, I always ask myself, just what the fuck does that mean---other than some people feel they are owed something they're not getting.
Can anyone 'splain that to me?
It’s not about not being able to do things as much as it’s about not being able to explain it. Lots of math classes request a show of work. Some people can’t do that. They get the answer- they can’t go through the steps. Not all people solve math equations the same way.
Kinda like going through life.
Blogger Robert Cook said...
"Algebra is not that hard. He obviously is a chronic complainer and perfect for todays "higher" education."
Temple Grandin is a woman and she is autistic.
Many, if not most, autistics are capable of math and it may be the thing they are best at. What they have trouble with is interpersonal relationships.
Hate to break it to Grandin but there's algebra needed to work with statistics. And besides that algebra is incredibly practical. Can you get through life without it? Sure, like you can get through life without driving a car. But if you know how to drive you have many more options, and if you don't drive you are dependent on / at the mercy of people who can drive.
&ps- I hatehatehate math. I practically failed Algebra 1(well, failing at our HS was below anything 70),yet: passed Algebra 2 w/an A.
It’s all about the teacher.
I'm surprised that people don't know about Temple Grandin. Anyone involved in animal agriculture is familiar with her and her work.
According to conductor Richard Bonynge, Pavarotti never learned to read music." You would think that to be an absolute prerequisite...
neurodiverse work force
Lost me right there. We've already got a "neurodiverse workforce". We've got a neuro diverse society. The whole human race is neurodiverse. Einstein was neurodiverse. Musk is neurodiverse. Your local barrista is neurodiverse. We all find our way in the world using the templates laid down during the last million years or so or just make our own.
In case anyone was wondering, I'm the sole non-neurodiverse person in the world (there can be only one, right?). I'm completely "normal". You should all adjust your social mores and institutions accordingly.
Roger Sweeny said:
"High schools hate when students don't graduate. I have heard numerous teachers say, "I couldn't bear to fail X. You can't do anything without a high school diploma.""
Same teachers wonder why the high school diploma has become so devalued. The good that they're selling isn't what it was, because they've essentially destroyed its value. Same thing is currently happening with regards to college degrees, especially from "prestigious" Ivy League schools. I know a guy who does a lot of work in development and other allied fields. His policy is to automatically exclude anyone from those schools from his direct employment, and only hires outside firms with Ivy League employees when he needs an "in" with their networks.
I won't term Temple Grandin as anything derogatory, but the unfortunate fact is that the "system" couples math with credentials. No math? No credential. That's been the policy for years. Was it correct? I don't know, but I will observe that the destruction of standards creates problems for us all. If I go to hire someone with a high school diploma, that particular credential becomes utterly useless to me as a decision-making tool if the standard of "high school diploma=numerate" is no longer true. This isn't a good thing, for anyone with a diploma, and it renders all the money and effort expended on running those schools utterly pointless. Which is what is in the process of happening.
All too many of the people involved in these things are guilty of magical thinking. The Bush Administration's attempt to spread homeownership out to everyone, thinking that the possession of a mortgage was what made people middle-class and industrious got the whole thing ass-backwards, and that was what blew up the housing market when those people turned out to lack the other attributes of the middle classes. Similarly, passing out high school and college diplomas to all and sundry, regardless of actual educational attainments? I would laugh, except for the tragicomic nature of the outcome we're now living in.
You aren't doing anyone a favor when you hand them something they haven't earned. All you're doing is devaluing what you're handing out, for everyone. The people at AOC's alma mater that passed that woman a degree in economics should have been sued by every other graduate of that program, because I'll guarantee you that any employer looking at one of those degrees in anyone's resume will look up at the TV where AOC's blatherings and essential economic illiteracy are on display, and then drop that resume into the trash can.
You can fake the funk for a few years, but in the end? The unlubricated dildo of consequence will be making an appearance. If you can't count on the value of something, then that something won't have value.
In my experiences teaching and tutoring, when an otherwise intelligent kid "doesn't get algebra" there's usually some dyslexia at play. They understand the processes like balancing equations, variables standing for the unknown, and isolating variables... they just don't ever get the right answers when they follow the process correctly because at some point they flip a few digits and they can't easily see where.
Let them use graph paper instead of lined paper and multi-colored pens, and they suddenly 'get it.'. Or just check their work closely and see where the mistake was.
The bigger issue is not all TEACHERS understand the material well enough to explain to a kid what they are messing up.
(Some kids ARE not able to get algebra. They can't understand that it doesn't matter whether you use x, y, z, j, or smiley-face, it is still the same thing)
It’s amazing how many people had no idea who Temple Grandin is and the reality of the way a visual thinker’s brain processes incoming information. I hope these people who bashed her have no people on the Autism Spectrum in their family.
I had a horrific time in algebra from 7th grade on.
Once we got to factoring, none of it made a lick of sense to me.
Got to geometry, and then to trig in college, and had no serious problem. Solid Bs. Chemistry was fine.
Music theory was a snap.
Then when I was 30 I went back and got some algebra self-teaching books and went through them like crossword puzzles.
Modern portfolio theory? Financial analysis? I have no problem with it.
Statistics makes no sense without algebra? It's true that you need algebra to express and analyze statistics, and a lot of other fields. But the algebra made no sense without some practical application like statistics, probability, physics, finance, etc.
Spending years trying to teach algebra in isolation from the other fields is insane, but that's exactly what I was struggling with for years.
People for whom algebra came easy as an abstraction should probably STFU about other people. A lot of them have some serious spatial, linguistic, musical, and/or interpersonal deficiencies in other fields that the rest of us put up with all the time, that a lot of them are blissfully unaware of.
It takes all kinds, and there are different styles of learning.
And each of us is a windowlicker in our own way.
"it is pretty clear at 14 if your future is academic or vocational"
Earlier. IQ at a young age has great predictive value. Rank order in academic accomplishment doesn't change much over time. Occupations and occupational choice, all with certain basic cognitive requirements, tend to fall in certain IQ bands. Of course, actual school learning may vary a bit depending on personality and situation, and particular levels of aptitude still allow for a wide range of choices in schooling and work. Etc. etc. There's a lot of research on all of it, as discussed popularly by people ranging from Jordan P. to Freddie DeBoer.
An amendment to my above comment:
My Geometry teacher was a senile sister, Sr Mary Meatball. She would always incorporate 2(or more) word problems on the board- accidentally. I’d furiously copy to keep up only to have the smartest, sharpest kids call out: Sr, Sr… she’d put her finger to her mouth (hmmmm, that’s not right)pick up the eraser and erase the entire process.
The smartest, sharpest we’re like: no, no Sr… just erase number (xyz) b/c they knew where she’d strayed of into the puckerbrush. Me?
More confused than Sr.
If an airplane was engineered by a visual thinker who couldn't do math, would you fly in it?
Students in Europe don't "decide" which track to take at age 14. Their performance up to that time decides for them. It's a good system, but with obvious drawbacks for some.
Without calculus, it hard to see how anyone truly learns statistics. One can learn to mimic some statistical procedures, but likely, understanding would be severely hampered for most students. Continuous distributions, e.g., Normal, and the various applications of the Central Limit Theorem, e.g., a 95% Confidence Interval for the mean is given by …, would descend like magic from the heavens. Some base descriptive statistics might be possible, e.g., the mean (but isn’t a formula really algebra?) but no graphics, no regression, no inferences, … . What I fear is that by “teaching” statistics without sufficient math, what is really meant is “teach” a few buzz words, a few formulae and don’t worry, be happy.
Narrow perspective. Lower expectations. English as a second language. Diversity, Inequity, Exclusion (DIE). Affirmative discrimination. Every Child Left Behind.
The vocational route is not looked down on or regarded as a lesser form of intelligence.
Flyover country, deplorables, et cetera.
The Pro-Choice religion denies women and men's dignity and agency, and normalizes human life as negotiable commodities.
Thank you Robert Cook for doing the important work of educating people who Temple Grandin is.
She is an amazing woman, not someone who should be brushed aside with a glib comment.
The first factor of studying is a provision for the purpose of the studying. But schools never tell kids why they are learning these strange things. Of course, the teachers don't really know other than that is what they were told and what they were taught 20 years before. So kids are suppose to learn simply because that is what some faceless bureaucrat decided. And the schooling cartel wants it that way so the kids don't get the idea they have personal autonomy, especially in learning.
Here's Elon Musk making the point.
https://youtu.be/ukaaXZTQzqw
The first factor of studying is a provision for the purpose of the studying. But schools never tell kids why they are learning these strange things. Of course, the teachers don't really know other than that is what they were told and what they were taught 20 years before. So kids are suppose to learn simply because that is what some faceless bureaucrat decided. And the schooling cartel wants it that way so the kids don't get the idea they have personal autonomy, especially in learning.
Here's Elon Musk making the point.
https://youtu.be/ukaaXZTQzqw
Being on the Autism Spectrum does not mean that all or most autistic people’s brains are “wired” in the same way.
“Not all autistic people are good at maths and science – despite the stereotypes”
The first factor of studying is a provision for the purpose of the studying. But schools never tell kids why they are learning these strange things. Of course, the teachers don't really know other than that is what they were told and what they were taught 20 years before. So kids are suppose to learn simply because that is what some faceless bureaucrat decided. And the schooling cartel wants it that way so the kids don't get the idea they have personal autonomy, especially in learning.
Here's Elon Musk making the point.
https://youtu.be/ukaaXZTQzqw
I was kinda yeah, yeah-ing through this until I saw "Temple Grandin" then OK pay attention.
For James at 12:55. Irving Berlin couldn't read music either.
The point of math education is to give the student options. If you can’t do calculus, well, you are going to get sorted out of certain degrees, and employers are well aware of which degrees require calculus. Sure, that’s not a life sentence, but if you don’t give children the opportunity, in order to spare feelings, you are robbing some of them of a rewarding future. You can’t know which ones in advance. Unless you just want to sort using standardized testing…
"For the record, she's autistic yet has a very impressive string of accomplishments."
So special pleading, then. Still a mass of opinion that is assumed to be smart just because the person opining on the topic is generally smart and credentialed in other areas.
One way to fix American education is to stop listening to the smart and/or credentialed people and listen to the people closest to the kids. (That would be parents.)
I did fine in math, it was easy for me, but I really wish that I could have had access to the videos out now, as a small part of my education, maybe a half hour a week. Videos are not “studying,” but what a supplement to actually working on math.
I always did well on the standardized tests, even in math, but had to take Alg I in summer school. Geometry in grade 10 or 11 was a cinch, but after a month of Alg II in senior year
I was lost and concentrated on reading. The teacher--one of the first B/black teachers at that school as it happens--dutifully gave me the tests and I dutifully handed them back with my signature and date.
I didn't need the credit and didn't really have any STEM interests, and was pretty much a shoe-in at the local state u since my standardized test scores were really good.
I continued to do well on the standardized tests, even in math, and taking the path of least math resistance through college and grad school (history and library science).
Why the aptitudes, limitations, experiences and opinions of a person like Dr. Grandin should attract so much vitriol is a mystery to me.
Does it rankle so badly, that a person who wasn't any good at maths should be so successful and well-known?
Higher math, music, and foreign languages come hard--or not at all--for some, and it's not as if the math-adept lack for opportunity in today's world.
Right?
And then Satan said, "Put the alphabet in math."
There is a reason you can buy tee shirts and mugs with that sentiment on them. For lots of people, they simply cannot understand "the alphabet in math." With enough practice, they can repeat the steps of a problem and pass a test. But a week or so later, they will have forgotten and won't be able to figure out what they did or why it worked.
"However, by such an age, the education system and you as an individual should have a good idea of what you are good and not, and what you like and don't."
Nope, not anywhere near reality in our current educational environment. Kids may know one or two things they THINK they are good at, but self-awareness is extremely low at this age (heck, it's highly skewed in adults) and the rate of mental and physical change at that age causes all manner of confusions and distractions. The leap in imagination from what a kid thinks he/she is good at to something at which they can make a living is way out of their ken.
Modern public schools spend a ton of time and money "helping" middle school and high school kids figure out their interests, possible career paths, etc. And like almost everything else modern government schools attempt, it goes poorly with poor outcomes.
...if I were a young person today, I would have difficulty graduating from high school...
Voilà. That sentence sounds completely unrelatable to me. Little wonder i struggled to unpack the rest of it.
Autism refers to basket of poorly characterized symptoms. It is a narrow judgment and label to aid and abet casting people in blocs (e.g. "people of color"), and a poor indicator of individual interest, ability, and achievement. It's similar to the transgender spectrum that covers homosexuals, bisexuals, neogenders, quasigenders, pseudogenders, etc.
It's absolutely shocking how many people didn't know who Temple Grandin is.
I remember taking algebra in 6th grade. I started midyear because of a change in schools, so I missed whatever the first-semester lead-in stuff was, and came straight into the introduction of variables. For a good 2 weeks I was in-tears frustrated by my inability to understand what this x thing was for... and then something clicked overnight and it all miraculously made sense. I have no idea what changed in my brain, but that's the only time I've ever experienced that kind of sudden breakthrough. It gives me sympathy for those who - like me during those two weeks - are intelligent, motivated, and have never failed to understand a concept before, but in this case just can't.
I've only had close dealings with two young people on the autism spectrum, and each of them is utterly different from the other - one got her degree in math and is working on her master's, while also having created an exquisitely detailed family tree of everyone in the GoT books (not the show). The other got certified as an electrician after exploring plumbing first in great detail as a child (he and his dad replaced every fixture in their house before he was 12), while also having a fascinating with and great care for a series of exotic-ish animals like lizards, snakes, and rats. Autism doesn't just equal Rainman.
As a high school teacher, I can tell you that for the vast majority of people, it is pretty clear at 14 if your future is academic or vocational, especially in a system where you know the right to higher education has to be earned.
In my kids' high school in a pretty affluent Houston suburb, kids+parents+counselors decide at the beginning of 9th grade what "endorsement(s)" the kid will go for - will they be an "academic" student, meaning no advanced classes, or a "business" student, meaning advanced classes only in verbal subjects, a "STEM" student, or some combination? In essence this is setting kids on what passes in America for vocational versus university track at age 14.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect that close to 100% of trade/technical schools are going to require algebra.
"She is an amazing woman, not someone who should be brushed aside with a glib comment."
We brush aside amazing people with glib comments all the time. I think we would be doing her a disservice if we treated her differently than others.
I listened to her on Jordan Peterson's podcast and came away thinking she was a complete fraud.
Nothing she does is that amazing except her academic marketing of it as a function of a disability that makes her special. I've worked with lots of blue collar men who routinely figure out how to do a better job with animal logistics, etc. They don't get genius awards for doing it.
I wasn't going to comment here, but being very familiar with Temple and the wonderful movie made about her life and having experienced the calming effect of her big invention, I thought I'd spend my break reading the 85 comments.
Wow. A lot of people don't know who she is and are rather harsh about the headline statement. I think she's wrong in that statement because her disabilities (or learning difficulties) would be accommodated in our current systems. But she is insightful about much that she says. Her instinctual understanding of cattle, among other things, is a gift and primary and secondary school systems are not designed to maximize gifted students at all.
I did well in algebra, trig and precalculus in high school. Geometry and proofs baffled me at 15, in a way no other math ever did. Was it the teacher or some internal brain development that hadn't happened yet? Same HS sophomore year, I struggled with Chemistry. Yet when I visited both subjects years later helping with my kids' homework, I couldn't see why I ever had struggled. Sometimes I think people convince themselves "this is too hard" early.
I wasn't going to comment here, but being very familiar with Temple and the wonderful movie made about her life and having experienced the calming effect of her big invention, I thought I'd spend my break reading the 85 comments.
Wow. "Lazy?" A lot of people seem not to know who she is and are rather harsh about the headline statement. I think she's wrong in that statement because her disabilities (or learning difficulties) would be accommodated in our current systems. But she is insightful about much that she says. Her instinctual understanding of cattle, among other things, is a gift and primary and secondary school systems are not designed to maximize gifted students at all.
(And I can't recall if I hit the publish button or not. Something weird happened where the comment box went blank, but I didn't think the cursor was near that button. If the above is a duplicate I'll come back and delete it.)
“Temple Grandin is a woman and she is autistic.”
And, that, I think, was the problem. Not the being a woman. My mother, her aunt, and my daughter all have/had degrees in math (daughter’s was a double major with physics, plus a very math centric PhD). It’s the autism. Many people on the Autism spectrum have problems understanding anything that isn’t literal. Someone I know well, likely with Ausberger’s, just couldn’t get Algebra. It didn’t make sense to her. Her brother told her to ignore that it doesn’t make sense, and just do it. She did, and amazingly got an A. 50 years later, it still doesn’t make sense to her. She could do the mathematics required for interior design, including faultless space layout, in her head, but don’t try to confuse her with Algebra.
For me, coming from a family where math is considered drop dead easy (and only stupid people couldn’t do at least Calculus), this never made sense to me. Taught my daughter Algebra over a weekend when she was in lower school, then derivatives in maybe 6th-7th grade. That was years before she understood what they were useful for, but were fun to learn. Just like Algebra, there were symbolic permutations (or functions) that you put a formula through to get a result. Now she solves partial differential equations daily as part of her job.
(Now Sir) Simon Baron Cohen has theorized that Autistics essentially don’t have a Governor on the speed of their brains. That much I think is true. That Aspie (above) truly has the fasted brain I probably ever have encountered. But I wonder if part of that speed is a result of never thinking figuratively or being able to generalize, because that is, essentially, what Algebra is about. She could do just fine shuffling around variables, as you do in Algebra, but could never get that the value, of being able to substitute values for the variables. Or, indeed, of being able to solve the equations for values for the variables.
There are all kinds of "math" just as there are all kinds of teachers. The unfortunate student that gets a bad teacher and the wrong math course will likely be doomed.
Been there.
I'm a little surprised at the surprise people are expressing that some of us have never heard of her. From Wikipedia:
"Grandin has been featured on major media programs, such as Lisa Davis' It's Your Health, …"
never heard of her, either
"ABC's Primetime Live, the Today Show, …"
don't watch it
"Larry King Live,…"
didn't listen to it
"and Fresh Air with Terry Gross. "
don't listen to it
"She has been written up in Time magazine, …"
don't read it
"People magazine, …"
don't read it
"Discover magazine, …"
I may have glanced at one or two issues
"Forbes, …"
they don't like my ad-blocker
and The New York Times.[51][52]"
they want my money, but don't provide a product worth the paper it's printed on.
"In 2012, Grandin was interviewed on Thriving Canine Radio to discuss "A Different Perspective on Animal Behavior"."
I'm not a farmer or rancher
Now, if she was some kind of math wiz, I probably would have heard of her. But apparently she can't understand algebra.
I read “Thinking in Pictures” when it came out in 1995. I thought Temple Grandin was too famous to require an explanation!
I felt the same way until I witnessed how wrong I was. I don’t know whose I am, but I am clearly someone’s “sweet summer child” today. Ann, methinks many of your readers owe apologies.
"Thriving Canine Radio"
don't have a dog
Way late to this party, but if you cannot conceptualize Algebra visually at all, then you are not being taught it correctly. Or as Bruce Hayden points to... perhaps it is the autism. Heck, I remember my first application of Linear Algebra was modeling livestock. If you have X acreage and want to raise A cattle, B sheep and C goats, while each eats Y amount of square feet of grass along with other variables on rate of growth of grass, risk of loss of crop, and overhead. If you didn't make it visual, you would often miss flaws in the model.
She is an amazing woman, not someone who should be brushed aside with a glib comment.
Oh dear, you might not want to learn how they treat Elon Musk.
"Her instinctual understanding of cattle, among other things, is a gift and primary and secondary school systems are not designed to maximize gifted students at all."
Well, in my semi-rural midwestern school system* they do a lot better at identifying and maximizing people who have any understanding of cattle than they do of those who have an instinctual understanding of algebra, geometry, calculus, statistics, physics, trigonometry, etc.
So perhaps Temple needed to grow up somewhere other than where she did to be recognized for her instinctive understanding of cattle.
*We have a STEAM wing on our HS: Science, Technology, Engineering, Agriculture, Math. The only part of that which is apparently important to our superintendant is Agriculture. FFA participation is greater than the football team.
At 14 I was an idiot C grade student more interested in getting high than reading books. Boy am I happy my future wasn’t set for me then based on who I was otherwise I wouldn’t have graduated near the top of my class in college, got a PhD in Molecular Biology, and eventually a JD.
One of the problems in teaching math is that it's done in steps- and often the next step tells you that something the previous step said you couoldn't do, suddenly you can.
Examples in the order I recall them, though may not be totally accurate.
Can't subtract a larger number from a smaller number- now let's introduce negative numbers...
The numerator must be smaller then the denomiator- until it doesn't have to be.
All numbers can be located exactly on the (real) number line. Let me itroduce you to irractional numbers like π.
Negative numbers don't have square roots, because when you multiply two negative numbers, you get a positive. Let me introduce you to i. That one I really recall. Had the same teacher in 8th and 9th grades for ALG1 and ALG2. He had a planned abscence one day. Left instructions to the substitute to have ME teach the class the square root of -1. Didn't tell me ahead of time. I don't even know how he knew I knew the concept. One lesson and everyone understood it. With no lesson plan... Bunch of smart people in that class.
And after that- unsolvaable quadratic equations aren't unsolvable after all. Let me introduce you to complex numbers.
And on and on it goes. Each step loses some people as they can't adapt to this new knowledge that overturns what they previously knew. If you advanced in math betond basic arithmatic, I'm sure you rmember each of these new revelations.
Robert Cook is a man, and is autistic.
"I've seen a decent argument for pushing geometry ahead of algebra, as once you understand the former, it makes it easier to understand some of the latter concepts."
When I was in high school, 1980-84, algebra came first, two years of it, then geometry, and then pre-calculus/trigonometry. Now, I goofed off in high school and put in the minimum effort, and was forced to build the basics by myself following my first year in college with calculus. At that point, I started with geometry first, then algebra, and then trigonometry, and only then did I retackle calculus. Then a couple of years ago, I decided to start studying math again (I have a Ph.D in Chemistry, and stopped studying math as a subject in grad school over 30 years ago), and went back to beginning and in order, geometry, algebra, trigonometry, and then analytic geometry. I am deep into calculus right now. More than ever, I think that above is the correct order to teach math beyond the basics of arithmetic- (1) geometry, (2) algebra, college level, (3) trigonometry, (4) analytic geometry, (5) calculus and above.
There is algebra in geometry, but geometry is mostly learning how to approach proving things using logic and the built up base of proven theorems. It should be first in high school.
Don B. said...
Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect that close to 100% of trade/technical schools are going to require algebra.
Maybe not the schools but in working life, yes. But because of the damage done by the schools, you don't tell them it's algebra. You teach them in the practical. A lot of the algebra and trig is handled by "calculators" or simple rules. The 3-4-5 rule to make a square corner. Yes, often the formal math is glossed over but they know how to use it better than after high school math class where nothing is shown to have a relation to the real world.
Economics professor wrote a book on how college was basically just signaling. Evidenced by the fact that if you drop out a half hour before graduation and so don't get the magic parchment, you get none of the employment/social benefits of a college education. You have that empty cell on the HR spreadsheet. But he was on several podcasts where he snarked that maybe if you went into the trades you'd never use the Pythagorean Theorem. Which revealed such ignorance of the real world by this professor. If you aren't good at math, you go into the Liberal Arts. If you go into the trades and rise above helper, you'll be doing math. You want to teach kids factions, teach them how to use a tape measure to make something in the real world.
There are worse crimes in the world than not knowing who Temple Grandin is. All of us are ignorant of some people in the world that we shouldn't be. In other words, it isn't possible to know of everyone that should be recognized.
And when the powers that be are herding you into that building that no one returns from, think of Ms. Grandin.
Blogger Old and slow said...
Students in Europe don't "decide" which track to take at age 14. Their performance up to that time decides for them. It's a good system, but with obvious drawbacks for some.
The obvious drawback being you give the government control over your children's livelihood when they are 14 years old? That's a pretty big one if you love freedom.
Oh dear, you might not want to learn how they treat Elon Musk.
It's because he's native African, an African-American, a person of color, a peach American. He's not one of Mandela's Xhosa or their Zulu or native sacrifices for social progress and redistributive change.
I totally agree. I didn’t realize I was “good” at math until I took a Logical Reasoning Philosophy class that counted as a math my freshman year of college. I had been a mediocre math student k-12. But I also scored a 30 on my ACT and tested very well. In the logic class, I earned the highest grade the professor had ever given and I found that when math concepts used words instead of numbers, my capacity for math was through the roof. I ended up working my way back through algebra and then into calculus, armed with a much better capacity to understand. It didn’t make sense to me until all of a sudden it did. And I credit the philosophy of logic and a great professor for helping me unlock it.
Never heard of Temple Grandin.
It's amazing... people have different competencies, and different sets of information. Who knew?
Speaking of famous musicians who can't read music, I believe Paul McCartney can't either.
I've been a Temple Grandin fan for a long time. This column does not really do her work or her ideas justice, even though she wrote it.
The unfortunate fact is that many public schools are no longer successfully teaching reading and basic arithmetic, let alone algebra. Do you suppose any young person could make change without looking at the cash register any more?
“I thought Temple Grandin was too famous to require an explanation!”
This might be your funniest comment thread of all time.
Temple Grandin? the woman that invented a way to safely lead cattle to a branding hold. It was a lifesaver for the cattle and the ranchers. She was autistic and she was/is a woman.
I’m looking up that HBO movie. Thanks
Sebastian said:
""it is pretty clear at 14 if your future is academic or vocational"
Earlier. IQ at a young age has great predictive value. Rank order in academic accomplishment doesn't change much over time. Occupations and occupational choice, all with certain basic cognitive requirements, tend to fall in certain IQ bands. Of course, actual school learning may vary a bit depending on personality and situation, and particular levels of aptitude still allow for a wide range of choices in schooling and work. Etc. etc. There's a lot of research on all of it, as discussed popularly by people ranging from Jordan P. to Freddie DeBoer."
I question the entire premise you've put on offer, here.
Firstly, what exactly is IQ testing measuring? It's an abstract test we use to approximate a value we then use to assess and quantify someone's "intelligence". Which starts to become a circular self-referential con game the more we use those tests to track people into schooling and employment. Do well on the tests? You're getting more schooling that caters to people who do well on those tests, more testing, more self-referential schooling, and we'll finally put you into a position of authority somewhere in society.
Ain't nowhere along the line do we bother to see if you've got the sense to pour piss out of a boot, or deliver a single consequence if you don't.
Bunch of pointy-haired types got together, decided that how they functioned in the world represented what "smart" was, wrote abstract tests to identify others of their type, and then used that to leverage their sort of mind and thinking into a position of primacy in the world. Then, because they'd managed that bit of legerdemain, they then point to the fact that people that think the way they do and match their pre-conceptions do better on the tests, they then do better in life. In the constrained world that they've set up, where doing well on their tests mean that the subjects get better jobs and positions within society...
The whole thing is really a lot more of a joke than anything else, because nobody ever stops to ask the question of "What sort of work-product are these wunnerful, wunnerful autists churning out...?"
Take a look around you. Does it look like the premise, the promise, is working out? Is the world a better place, being run by "smart people" who're identified by the tests those same "smart people" came up with to identify and empower their own sort of nerdery?
Whatever the IQ test is measuring, it ain't any of these three things: Wisdom, common sense, or virtue. Those are qualities you can't test for on a piece of paper, or discover in a classroom environment. You have to assess real-world performance, which we've decoupled from education and consequence. Today? If you can do well on the tests, you can get away with murder.
(cont)
I do really well on tests. Always have. I've got the knack to be able to get inside the heads of the people who wrote the tests, and I can score a passing grade on nearly any test I've run into, without ever actually doing the work. Scared the crap out of myself, once, taking a practice test for Engineer in Training; I got a better score on that test, without any sort of background work than a young man who'd graduated from West Point with an actual Bachelor's Degree in Civil Engineering. I could probably fake my way through a lot of stuff, simply because I've got that test-taking knack.
Which is why I question the entire premise of the testing regime. I score well enough on the MENSA tests that I easily qualify for membership, generally somewhere in the mid-nineties on a percentile basis. The problem with that is that once I started hanging around with the MENSA types, I was forced into the recognition that most of them are really miserable people, self-involved and totally unable to process that their sort of "intelligence" is of little real value. You want an ugly realization, it's the one you have when you discover that "smart" is really not all that useful in life. I know a couple of really successful people, who've built up all sorts of different businesses and who emphatically did not "do well on the tests". Their success was not reliant on outsmarting everyone else; it was based on the crap we don't capture in those tests, like wisdom, common sense, the ability to work with other people, determination, and actual, y'know... Demonstrated virtue. Those qualities are rarely found in the MENSA types, because they're not easily testable, and they're thus devalued.
The IQ test regime is an outline; it measures some things, much like a sea chart measures some things about the world. If you're only looking for coastlines, then a sea chart is perfect. The problem is, if you're trying to understand the nature of the land mass those charts are displaying, you're screwed: They're totally useless for looking past the bits where the sea meets the land. Are there mountains inside that coast? Swamps? What?
The fact that we've warped the world around the IQ test regime is a total tragedy and even the guy who started us on this path said the testing shouldn't be used the way we are. You go back and read Benet, and you start to recognize that even he had his well-founded doubts about what he was measuring.
Best "thing that'll make you think" about IQ testing was that well-known anecdote about animal behaviorists trying to assess the intelligence of a species of primate: They set up an enclosure, where their own carefully-assessed and college-honed educated minds could only see seven different ways to get out of the enclosure, with carefully gradated levels of complexity. They figured that they'd be able to tell how "smart" the test subjects were, based on which path towards escape they figured out.
Their test subjects found an eighth way out. Then, a ninth. And, a tenth.
People tell that anecdote and use it to illustrate various things. Now, I see something different than what many of those people see, and what I see is this: The IQ test regime that put those graduate students and their adviser at the top of the heap for "intelligence"? That regime obviously ain't measuring a bunch of things about "intelligence" that we think it is, because if it were, a bunch of test animals shouldn't be able to outwit the IQ-tested elite that set up that enclosure.
(cont)
I have doubts about the entire scheme, to be quite honest. The people I've run into over the course of my life, the ones who "did really, really well on the tests"? The vast majority of those people don't actually demonstrate much in the way of performance. Their "way of the world" viewpoints very often don't prove out, when put to the test of reality.
But, because the "rest of us" are overawed by their test scores and schooling (all self-referential circles), we never pay attention to the fact that their efforts aren't bettering life around us a single bit. In fact, the work-product they keep churning out and then imposing on the rest of us is creating rather more misery and dysfunction, the deeper into their navels we go.
Smart is as smart does; if it ain't working, it ain't smart. Period. Based on past life experience, I'd rather have things run by someone who did really, really badly on the tests, and whose actual performance in the real world demonstrates superior wisdom and common sense. You don't need a genius-level IQ to identify things ain't working; sometimes, all you need is the common sense to note the reality of things.
Which we ain't testing for. Sadly.
Ann said;I thought Temple Grandin was too famous to require an explanation!
If I may paraphrase a quote from Winthrop's mom in 'The Music Man', 'excuse me for livin', but i managed to get to nearly 70 years of age without being exposed to Temple Grandin. to those that don't get the Music Man reference; that makes you a poorer person!'
"Robert Cook is a man, and is autistic."
I'm not autistic, (as far as I know), but I am shit at any math beyond basic arithmetic.
I've seen and heard Grandin on the TV, and seen The Music Man. I also scored highly on the tests designed to reward being white, male, and middle-class. I was apparently very--even outstandingly--white, male, and middleclass.
None of which proves anything much about me or the importance of math.
Yesterday I was at my brother's house--the house our parents bought in 1960 and which he has lived in his entire life. It's crammed with junk, but also houses the little bits of our father's boyhood that we have.
There's a scrapbook with some clippings from the paper when he was in the air force, but also some documents from a summer program he was in as an 11 year old in 1934. The program was at the local ivy-manque', Southwestern at Memphis (now Rhodes College) and consisted of athletic and academic activities and competitions.
His measured IQ was 107, but when it came to actual math problems, he apparently was outstanding, solving several of the problems rated for 12 and 14 year-olds, and even one rated for 16 year-olds (an unequaled feat IIRC).
OTOH, they speculated that his relatively low verbal scores might be because he didn't hear much English at home. I have no idea how accurate that speculation was--my Opa had some German accent but I barely recall him; Oma had a very strong German accent and never quite mastered English tenses, but I have no reason to think they didn't try to speak English at home. Opa was smart enough to have learned two languages when he came to America--first Italian, then English. (He came as a wigmaker, hairdresser, and make-up man for an Italian opera company.)
For all my father's athletic ability (he was tops) and ability with math, the evaluation
ended with the recommendation that he repeat seventh grade. I don't think he did, since he graduated from HS in 1940 (born 1923) and got a year in at Southwestern before
the war.
After coming home in 1945 went back to Southwestern and got a degree in accounting. He loved math, and played a mean trombone, but had no facility whatever with foreign languages, and AFAIR never read a book.
My IQ, and my son's, test considerably higher*, but neither of us have his drive or other gifts.
*Acknowledging all the critiques of the notion of IQ and its misuses, as well as the change in tests from the 1930s.
Wtf does high school algebra have to do with IQ tests!
On behalf of Temple Grandin, whose works I've long known, I'd just like to say that people who don't recognize her name or her work are missing out.
Some of what she's done is perfectly mundane, things that anyone familiar with working with cattle could probably tell you. A 12th Century cowherd or milkmaid would probably hear what Grandin had to say about the management of cattle and go "Well, duh... Who doesn't know these things...?"
But, here's the rub: Nobody respects the things that a 12th Century cowherd knows intimately. That's not the sort of knowledge we value, thinking that such things are unimportant and unworthy of knowing. There are no vast edifices devoted to the study of 12th Century cattle management practices, or the intrinsic knowledge bound up in the lives of the men and women who managed those cattle.
Is this a loss? I don't know; you tell me.
Going back to what I was saying about Grandin; her unique thing, her specialness? She was able to learn these things for herself, re-inventing the wheel, and then, most importantly: Putting it all into a context that was understandable to the autistic savants we have infesting our society today.
That's what's impressive about her body of work; she's somehow managed to bridge the gap between what those 12th Century cowherds had to have known (which is important stuff, when you're managing cattle) and the college-(over)educated dolts we have running everything. She's not a "cattle whisperer" so much as she's a "whisperer to the educated".
That word? Educated? The longer I live, the less it becomes a marker of respect. Based on experience, someone who is "educated" likely demonstrates a level of arrogance and ignorance of the commonplace that is awe-inspiring, and not in the good, uplifting sense that that word is usually used.
I grew up on a farm. I recognized a lot about what Grandin had to say as being intrinsically true about cows, based on experience. She, however, was able to articulate those things in such a way that a guy who'd been educated at Harvard could maybe understand it, if they had an open enough mind to admit that this awkward woman had something of value to import, if only they'd listen to her.
(cont)
This represents a vast gulf in our knowledge of the world. There are so many things out there that aren't recognized as being of import, worthy of what might be termed "academization", being enshrined in a textbook somewhere and taught to the autistic savants who're in charge of it all.
Case in point, and one that indicates a similar lack of understanding by the college-educated dolts we have running everything:
Circa 1993-ish, they were building brand-new barracks at Fort Lewis, Washington. They engaged an architectural firm and some engineers to design the new buildings. None of them had ever, y'know... Run troops, as we lowly scum NCO types would put it. That's important, because the barracks is a huge part of life when you're managing soldiers and training them. Think of the situation as being like designing a maze for experimental animals or something; the environment influences things. Lots of things, things you don't think about when you're doing a one-over-the-world view. Like the one you naturally take when you're a college-educated certified expert.
The powers-that-were in those days were very, very proud of their efforts. So, they built their little models, and then they gathered up all of us crusty old NCO types and said, proudly, "See the nice facilities we're building for you!!! Aren't we wonderful?"
All of us looked at those "nice facilities", and we had... Issues. From the standpoint of practicality, all it took was looking at the whole thing and anyone who'd actually "run troops" would say "Oh, hell no... That ain't never gonna work..."
I'd delineate specifics, but I don't have the space or time. What's pertinent is that we all "expressed our concerns", but in language that was obviously not understood by the people who were seeking our "input". Which, they actually weren't, because they ignored everything we had had to say. They built those shiny new barracks exactly as they'd planned.
Actual occupancy of those barracks? LOL... Everything we'd said would go wrong, went wrong. They were not laid out with the actual needs of a military unit; later iterations of new barracks on Fort Lewis abandoned that design, completely. Because, the shiny new ones they'd shown us in the early nineties proved not to work. Something we'd told them when we were shown them...
Thing was, though...? The problem wasn't necessarily in anything we did or said; it was in the fact that the tacit knowledge of what worked in barracks design and layout wasn't "honored knowledge" by the people making the decisions. We could not articulate our concerns in language that they'd be able to comprehend and internalize; they did not respect the things we NCO types knew instinctively, from having lived the life in the barracks ourselves. For the autistic savant types that we've put in charge of everything, these days, if you can't explain it in their terms, it doesn't exist.
That's the really significant gap that Temple Grandin filled in; I only wish I'd had her skill at that when I was talking to many of the over-educated dolts I had to deal with in the Army.
Apologies for the odd layout in my previous--too much editing and rewriting.
To answer Carol's question, it seems that around here mastery of algebra and co functions as a proxy for whatever IQ really is. If it is anything measurable by those means in the first place.
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