All the British news reports I'm seeing about moving the Queen's body from Scotland to London are using the word "coffin."10:23am, the Queen’s coffin passes through her local village of Ballater.
— Chris Ship (@chrisshipitv) September 11, 2022
Our colleague @PeterAdamSmith was told yesterday: “The country has lost a Monarch, we have lost a neighbour”.#QueenElizabeth pic.twitter.com/Bh4mU1Js1c
I think it's a word we Americans tend to use when talking about horror movies or Halloween or old cemeteries.
It is also used in America to generate outrage about the stark reality of death. Let me give 2 examples from the NYT:
1. From 2004: "The Bush administration's policy of barring news photographs of the flag-covered coffins of service members killed in Iraq won the backing of the Republican-controlled Senate on Monday, when lawmakers defeated a Democratic measure to instruct the Pentagon to allow pictures."2. From 2018: "As Senator John McCain’s coffin was being loaded onto a military plane bound for Washington on Thursday afternoon, cameras from major American TV networks beamed the coverage around the world, allowing a rapt public to witness the next leg of his four-day funeral. Back at the White House, President Trump aggressively tried to wrestle back the attention. 'Throwback Thursday!' the president exclaimed on Twitter, posting a video of celebratory Fox News clips of his unlikely route to the presidency just as Mr. McCain’s coffin was heading for Washington, where it will lie in state in the United States Capitol on Friday." (Remember when we were "rapt" at the transportation of a dead Senator's body and the President was a lout not to devote himself 100% to national mourning?)
If you attempt to research the American preference for the word "casket," you'll be swamped with funeral-industry doctrine restricting "coffin" to containers that are wider at the shoulders and narrower at the feet. ‚ so "coffins" really are those horror movie/Halloween props and what we picture buried in very old cemeteries. The modern rectangular box, we're told, is called a "casket." This is a denial that "casket" is a euphemism for "coffin."
In America, at least. In the U.K., it seems, "coffin" is the most reverent and respectful word — expressive of rectitude and rectangularity.
पोस्ट्स
६७ टिप्पण्या:
Perhaps accidental in this Althouse post on 9/11, but how appropriate to remember all the military men and women who lost their lives to The War on Terror. We should also remember all the freedoms and privacy that were stuffed in a coffin by our gov’t because of that day.
This post also illustrates the contrast between parading warmongering McCain’s coffin through Washington, and purposefully dampening the coverage of young Americans whose lives were sacrificed for McCain’s love of war and more “necessary” sacrificed lives. His legacy lives on today in Ukraine. We don’t see coverage of those coffins either. Same thing. Same reason.
God Bless the Queen. She was a good woman. King Charles III is already making me miss her dearly, and I really didn’t care that much to begin with. Can we put King Charles’ microphone in a coffin please?
Notice the prominent advertising placement of William Purvis Funeral Directors on the flag covering the Queen’s coffin. Perfectly placed in the window for six hours of free advertising.
Don’t forget to have your very own William Purvis royal memorial coffin flag shipped to your home through Amazon Prime.
There are no casket corners in football or aviation.
People who live in densely populated areas of the US also find six hour drives difficult. People from the Midwest don’t seem so phased by long drives. It’s normal for them.
Odd to see the Queen being transported in a Mercedes; don’t they have a Daimler hearse back at the ranch? Props on the eggplant coloured Bentley, though…
"Perhaps accidental in this Althouse post on 9/11..."
I know it's 9/11, and I have a planned post, but I don't want it this early in the morning.
"People who live in densely populated areas of the US also find six hour drives difficult. People from the Midwest don’t seem so phased by long drives. It’s normal for them."
Really? I think some people in densely populated areas accept 6 hours a driving a day as their normal commute. Some of the denizens of densely populated areas actually are in the Midwest, by the way. Have some pity on the poor commuters of Chicago.
For those of us in the Midwest, a workday commute is very short, much less than an hour. A 6-hour drive would be more of a vacation concept. Let's go to the U.P. again! It's great up there!
This post also illustrates the contrast between parading warmongering McCain’s coffin through Washington, and purposefully dampening the coverage of young Americans whose lives were sacrificed for McCain’s love of war and more “necessary” sacrificed lives. His legacy lives on today in Ukraine. We don’t see coverage of those coffins either. Same thing. Same reason.
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give them privacy = let us turn away / shut our eyes
for every soldier who dies there should be national wake if you claim to honor soldier and yourself.
wars would indeed be short as possible.
Althouse. I didn’t mean to suggest you forgot 9/11. Of course you wouldn’t.
Just thought it was perhaps subconscious or simply coincidental the two examples you used to illustrate the American vs. British connotation of coffin.
I got chased by a coffin once. It came thumping down the sidewalk behind me one dark and stormy night as I was walking home. It was upright and coming fast. I turned and ran. I made it to my stoop, ran up the steps, fumbled with my key. Thump, thump, thump, the coffin came. I pushed in through the door and tried to close it, but the coffin was already up the steps. I ran into the house. Thump, thump, thump, the coffin came in too. I ran down the hall and upstairs. Man, that box was so quick, it was right on my tail. I fled into the bathroom and tried to slam the door, but the coffin blocked it. I was trapped! As I backed away, I groped blindly for something to defend myself. In the dark, my hand found a bottle. Cough medicine. I threw it at the coffin. The bottle shattered on the lid and the medicine spattered and ran down, but the coffin stopped.
Too many sports announcers still yell "Coffin Nails!!!!" at a play that insures a positive outcome...seems like an outdated euphemism to me. And "The Dagger!!!!"...too violent.
I'm not a bit woke, but I'm all for retiring old useless cliches.
My Amish was buried in a coffin, with 6 sides, tapered narrower at the feet. Made of pine. The lid opened only from the shoulders up for viewing. I admire their simplicity.
BTW, the Amish community comes to a complete stop for a funeral. My friend's widow told me 400 people showed up for his funeral.
Fond memories of the U.P. and Spread Eagle Wisconsin.
Fond memories of the U.P. and Spread Eagle Wisconsin.
Today I learned the difference between a coffin and a casket.
Thank you, AA. I will dearly miss this blog the day you quit doing it.
If you have a 6 hour daily rush hour commute to Chicago, where do you live? Galena? Watseka?
I'd think about moving.
Most Americans think 100 years is a long time. Most Europeans think 100 miles is a long distance.
I always have thought the word “resolve” to refer to mental or intellectual activities, and the word or concept of “endurance” to refer to physical ones. Of course “endure” could refer to an intellectual or emotional challenge as well. So, the word “resolve” seems out of place to me in this setting.
Plus, following your mother’s coffin-bearing vehicle is a whole different thing from a long drive for business or pleasure. The time for calm and reflection would be welcome I would think.
“ Howard said...
There are no casket corners in football or aviation.”
There isn’t a “casket corner” in aviation, but there is a “coffin corner.”
https://simpleflying.com/aviation-coffin-corner/
Ah, for rectangularity. The regularity of rectangularity.
Speaking as a funeral home professional,coffin and casket have distinct trade meanings:
Coffin: describes the hexagonal-shaped container for the decedent. They are more common in Europe, though are still found in the US. For example coffins are made by trappists monks and are popular in certain Catholic groups as well as the overrated "green burial" movement.
Casket: Is a four-sided rectangular receptacle which most of the time (but not always) has some kind of sealing gasket or latch. This, along with most cemeteries requiring some kind of vault or grave liner probably contributed to caskets being more popular in the US than caskets; as well as it being easier to mass-produce rather than the anthropoidal-shaped coffin.
Still other receptacles are used by specific groups or religions. For example, an aron is a special casket used in Jewish burial that must be made entirely of wood or natural material, as everything must be able to "return to dust."
I always say "coffin." I've always thought of "casket" as this frou-frou euphemism. Now it turns out I'm basically Jesse in "Breaking Bad" telling Walt he just saw a 'cow house.'
I think they mean riding behind your sister's dead body may be difficult.
McCains week-long funeral tour remains a low point in our culture. No one was "rapt" except for newsreaders desperate to harangue Trump for being mean to a guy who was mean to him first.
A six hour drive in a limousine is not that hard, if there are rest breaks to allow for the necessities of nature. Otherwise, start out dehydrated. Or bring a container.
"Althouse. I didn’t mean to suggest you forgot 9/11. Of course you wouldn’t. Just thought it was perhaps subconscious or simply coincidental the two examples you used to illustrate the American vs. British connotation of coffin."
Thanks, Gusty. And I'm sorry to pick on one implication when you really did write an especially great comment!
"A six hour drive in a limousine is not that hard, if there are rest breaks to allow for the necessities of nature. Otherwise, start out dehydrated. Or bring a container."
Diaper.
We are more likely to encounter a coffin in horror films than a casket in real life, so it's understandable that "coffin" appears in those stories, even if morticians and lexicographers object.
I just hope Prince Phil's ridiculous custom-designed Range Rover hearse isn't invited to Lizzie's funeral.
Princess Anne is honoring her mother.
mikee said...
A six hour drive in a limousine is not that hard, if there are rest breaks to allow for the necessities of nature. Otherwise, start out dehydrated. Or bring a container.
That's the problem. They'll be no stopping at the Quik Trip on this run. I'm sure even the hardiest Midwesterners (or Westerners, who have even greater expanses to cross) would need a pee break after about 4 hours.
I almost never use "casket", but that might be because I loved the classic 1950s horror films growing up. I watch a lot of British television, and I did note at one point that coffin is used almost exclusively.
Huh. Always thought casket was just an American word for coffin.
Indeed, I forgot what the American word would be until it was mentioned: 'well, what else would you call it?' I says to myself.
"I always have thought the word “resolve” to refer to mental or intellectual activities, and the word or concept of “endurance” to refer to physical ones. Of course “endure” could refer to an intellectual or emotional challenge as well. So, the word “resolve” seems out of place to me in this setting."
I think the reference was more to the mind than the body. The only reason it's physically hard to sit in a luxury car as it moves for 6 hours is that you might need to use a bathroom and you might feel a need to stretch. It's more of a mental challenge. Sit still and endure possible boredom.
In the case of Princess Anne, she was on view, and lots of people were looking, so she had to maintain an upright, dignified demeanor the entire time. It's possible that she would have preferred private grieving, but she's spent her whole life doing ceremonial, serious performances like this and she's been preparing for her mother's death for many decades.
She probably had more "resolve" to do this ritual work than anyone in the world. Read about her, she's totally professional about these royal duties. To refer to "anyone" in the headline like that... it would make more sense to say if *anyone* could do this, it would be Princess Anne.
Blogger Mr. T. said...
... Jewish .... as everything must be able to "return to dust."
===========
I am interested to know what happens to 'biologicals' in sealed casket ?!
if>/? they don't return to dust are they presentable for "resurrection' in end-days
Yancey Ward said...
"Princess Anne is honoring her mother."
Right. I don't know why I wrote that.
When my grandmother's man of business went to a funeral home to arrange my great aunt's funeral, a body was laid out on a row of chairs in the hallway. So coffins are a good thing if you're not James Bond. My g-g-gf ran a funeral home and made his own coffins, and cabinetry as a side gig.
People throwing things at the hearse, as after Diana's weepfest, must freak out the poor drivers. Anything could happen.
Good point about the mental portion being the harder part. It's not really the journey but being essentially 'on stage' for six hours since I'm sure the path taken wasn't a direct or express routing. Google sez the direct route from Balmoral Castle to Edinburgh is only about two and a half hours.
I've had people comment that those of us from the less densely populated parts of the United States have a tendency to express journey lengths in time versus distance. I'm not sure this is entirely true but it could be, since trip times can vary considerably in densely populated areas depending on route and traffic but tend to be more consistent on open highways.
I hope to spend some time in a cask of fine brandy before an expensive state funeral.
Plant me plain, and pickled.
Interesting distinction that I had not realized existed. As for a six-hour drive it won’t even get you halfway from SoCal to the Turd Park by the Bay.
Blogger Gunner said...
McCains week-long funeral tour remains a low point in our culture. No one was "rapt" except for newsreaders desperate to harangue Trump for being mean to a guy who was mean to him first.
The McCain family showed their class by inviting all living presidents to the funeral but Trump. The NY Times in that article showed their TDS by making it about Trump.
Well, the "modern" casket is actually a nautical term also "gasket".
Casket \Cas"ket\, v. t.
To put into, or preserve in, a casket. [Poetic] "I have
casketed my treasure." --Shak.
[1913 Webster]
And the modern coffin does have a gasket to "preserve" in comparison to the original coffin
In addition to being "The case in which a dead human body is inclosed for burial," coffin is also used for basket or bag. But also an enclosing pastry
3. A casing or crust, or a mold, of pastry, as for a pie.
[1913 Webster]
Of the paste a coffin I will rear. --Shak.
[1913 Webster]
as well as a term used by the farrier
5. (Far.) The hollow crust or hoof of a horse's foot, below
the coronet, in which is the coffin bone.
[1913 Webster]
One might presume at some point the mortician offered a "casketed coffin" and that got truncated as more landlubbers were unfamiliar with the nautical use of casket.
"
She probably had more "resolve" to do this ritual work than anyone in the world. Read about her, she's totally professional about these royal duties. To refer to "anyone" in the headline like that... it would make more sense to say if *anyone* could do this, it would be Princess Anne."
Agreed. It is her job, and her duty. A responsible and respectful woman. Good on her.
There's a great episode of King of the Hill where Hank decides to DIY some coffins for himself and Peggy.
"We were talkin' about forest fires, and I forget how the conversation moved on to coffins.. anyway, I got the bug."
This has been rattling around in my brain since I read the post:
Now when I die
I don't want no coffin
Thought 'bout it all too often
Just strap me in behind the wheel
And bury me with my automobile
James Taylor, "Traffic Jam" from the album JT (1977). Lost out for Album of the Year to Fleetwood Mac, Rumours.
There's a reference to "drivin' around on fossil fuels," but the concern in the song is not about the environment. Being stuck in traffic ends the dream of freedom promised by the car, and makes one think the commuter's priorities are wrong--in conflict with a good life. The car is becoming a coffin, which I guess confirms the derogatory use of this term; I hadn't thought about how open we are to undertakers' BS, "casket" (Lord knows we're open to realtors' BS "not far from the beach"). Our relatives have all switched to cremation; I'm not sure why, there was never a meeting or anything.
I was curious about the fact that Princess Anne and her husband were mentioned as following the funeral motorcade, but not her brothers. I can see the King being exempted, but what else does Andrew have to do?
To be serious, I can see an only daughter wanting to perform this service for her mother so I am not trying to claim she is being discriminated against. I mostly just curious about the decision process that went into her being the one designated.
6 hours...San Jose to Los Angeles.
Maybe there are no breaks to go to the loo.
Didn’t read all the comments yet. But really, what is the difference? The Brits call an eggplant “aubergine.” We call a coffin a casket. This warrants an article? Silliness.
September 11th.
We get articles about the British Monarchy.
Hmm.
"So, the word “resolve” seems out of place to me in this setting."
Like "coffin", "resolve" is used differently in the UK
What struck me about the use of the word coffin was that I think we would refer rather to the hearse. So if a President were to die in office the news reports would be about the hearse carrying the body. ABC news reports “the hearse carrying the body of President blank to the Capital to lay in state has left the White House “. I think we Americans are less comfortable with death then our British friends. So we would focus on the manner of convenience rather than the container. One further step away from the corpse.
Casket originally meant a secure box you would keep valuables in. Casket became a euphemism for coffin as “passed” became a euphemism for dead. The origin word for coffin was originally a word for box in 13th century French. I wonder if it was a general use word for all kinds of boxes, which would include coffins, or evolved as a euphemism as casket did in the US.
casket (n.) mid-15c., "small box for jewels, etc.," possibly a diminutive of English cask with -et, or from a corruption of French casset "a casket, a chest" (see cassette).
I think my post was lost. I think the real difference between us in our British friends isn’t so much coffin versus casket, as coffin versus hearse
I think we would rather stay one step further away from the body in our speech.
Like everything that animates the NYT against Republicans, they will pick the most loaded word. For the remains being returned to Dover AFB in 2004 the correct term then and now is "transfer case". The remains are transferred to the family, who then decides the container (coffin, casket, whatever) for final arrangements.
coffin (n.)
early 14c., "chest or box for valuables," from Old French cofin "sarcophagus," earlier "basket, coffer" (12c., Modern French coffin), from Latin cophinus "basket, hamper" (source of Italian cofano, Spanish cuebano "basket"), from Greek kophinos "a basket," which is of uncertain origin.
Funereal sense "chest or box in which the dead human body is placed for burial" is from 1520s; before that the main secondary sense in English was "pie crust, a mold or casing of pastry for a pie" (late 14c.). Meaning "vehicle regarded as unsafe" is from 1830s. Coffin nail "cigarette" is slang from 1880; nail in (one's) coffin "thing that hastens or contributes to one's death" is by 1792.
later
Jewish Problems
The Mathematics Department of Moscow State University, the most pres-
tigious mathematics school in Russia, was at that time actively trying to keep
Jewish students (and other “undesirables”) from enrolling in the department.
One of the methods they used for doing this was to give the unwanted students a
different set of problems on their oral exam. I was told that these problems were
carefully designed to have elementary solutions (so that the Department could
avoid scandals) that were nearly impossible to find. Any student who failed
to answer could easily be rejected, so this system was an effective method of
controlling admissions. These kinds of math problems were informally referred
to as “Jewish” problems or “coffins”. “Coffins” is the literal translation from
Russian; they have also been called “killer” problems in English.
An early form of affirmative discrimination and cancel culture. Also, an example of semantic drift through metaphor.
My father loved wordplay, and he enjoyed reciting this ditty whenever someone coughed at the dinner table (it's been attributed to various different people, and maybe wasn't entirely appropriate in front of young children):
It isn't the cough
that carries you off
It's the coffin they carry you off in.
I wonder how soothing the ritual of following the coffin is to Princess Anne. Her brothers can't do it, for obvious reasons. (Charles: King; Andrew: Disgraced Lech; Edward: Children)
A Limo driver and good whisky make even 6 hour drives a snap.
Coffin: Out
Casket: In
The Brits have long laughed at Americans need to santize death and our "Funeral Industry". See waugh's "The loved one". Maybe they are correct.
Remember John McCain's funeral possession? The long journey from Arz to DC, complete with crying crowds? Yeah me neither.
To be serious, I can see an only daughter wanting to perform this service for her mother so I am not trying to claim she is being discriminated against. I mostly just curious about the decision process that went into her being the one designated.
Anne is the eldest after Charles. Andrew would be right out.
In the 19th century (and earlier, presumably), the women of an upper class family wouldn't attend the funeral. I suspect Anne will follow the caisson to the Abbey on foot with her brothers.
A coffin was also originally a basket or hamper, then a container for valuables, so there's some similarity to the evolution of "casket" (which is related to the word "cassette").
It's interesting that the US/UK casket/coffin distinction goes back so very far. It's noted in Hawthorne's book on England:
Meaning "coffin" (especially an expensive one) is American English, probably euphemistic, attested by 1832.
Thank Heaven, the old man did not call them "CASKETS!"—a vile modern phrase, which compels a person of sense and good taste to shrink more disgustfully than ever before from the idea of being buried at all. [Hawthorne, "Our Old Home," 1862]
In stories about deceased presidents, "casket" does seem to be the commonest word, but "coffin" is also found. A story from the end of the last century about JFK's original casket being dumped into the ocean has "casket" much more common in the story but "coffin" in the headline.
Words like "cortege," "caisson," and "bier" only seem to turn up when someone really important dies.
Don't be such a pedant, Darkisland. That's my job!
Yes, the oaths are sworn to the sovereign or monarch, but for several centuries the authority of sovs and monarchs has been subsumed under the theory of the King/Queen in Parliament. The monarch's ability to do anything unilaterally is about as real as the Colonels-in-Chief jobs they get assigned.
The Parliament could defund the monarchy and the armed services, and the monarch couldn't legally do anything about it but protest--Charles couldn't order any of the services to do anything; the monarchy certainly can't pay for itself or the forces.
Parliament rules.
I’ve been a funeral director in the US for 42 years. I was taught from day one that the difference between a casket and coffin is that of shape. Plain, simple and nothing to hide.
"American preference for the word 'casket'?
I think just about everyone understands that people are buried in a coffin. "Casket" is just funeral-biz marketing, sanitizing crap. Really, it's just a coffin.
Diapers, Althouse? Who do you think we are discussing here, an obsessed NASA astronaut? Anne is a Royal! Stiff upper lip, and iron resolve, and a well trained bladder of steel, brought her through this trip. Would she ever wear a diaper in a ceremonial role of such solemnity? Depends, I suppose.
Another interesting detail is the custom exhibited here of keeping the body of the deceased attended by family members. Origins of the custom are both religious (to prevent any evil spirits from harming the dead) and practical (could be the deceased is just resting, like a newly purchased Norwegian Blue parrot, and could use assistance if not totally dead).
Parliament rules.
Parliament is elected. I have heard of no huge support for abolishing the Monarchy, so why would MPs vote that way? So they can be replaced?
I spent a good part of my formative years in the U.K., so I never notice these things. Both casket and coffin seem appropriate to me.
To this day I don't know whether to spell it gray or grey.
I'm glad we're having this conversation now, because when the time comes when you need one you won't be giving a shit.
IDK Madison Man. I wasn't proposing that anyone do anything--it's their country--I was just pointing out that the king's royal power is nothing without Parliament.
They fought a war over it and decided that kings weren't the problem, it was kings who didn't know their place.
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