We are simultaneously being told that gender differences do not exist and that genders are so profoundly different that irreversible surgery is the only option.
— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) June 11, 2022
Perhaps someone wiser than me can explain this dichotomy.
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But who is "wiser" than Elon Musk? If the answer is no one, he's nailed down his position while performing open-mindedness. That's wisdom for you.
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serious questions
How old, does a child have be, to be mature enough to rent a car? 24?
How old, does a child have be, to be mature enough to play poker? 21?
How old, does a child have be, to be mature enough to buy a gun? 18?
How old, does a child have be, to be mature enough to vote? 18?
How old, does a child have be, to be mature enough to get a tattoo? 18
How old, does a child have be, to be mature enough to get a genital piercing? 18?
How old, does a child have be, to be mature enough to get a their ears pierced? 14?
How old, does a child have be, to be mature enough to get their genitals cut off? 8?
{my numbers might be different in your state}
I think Musk is missing a fundamental societal change.
We all grew up on Marlo Thomas and William wants a doll and the idea that there are no such things as 'girls things" and "boys things."
The new thinking is gender exists in a rigid framework based on a hyper-idealized version of 1950s sit coms, and that everyone must conform to these rigid stereotypes or they are somehow deformed.
Transwomen and Mormons circa 1962 actually subscribe to the same gender ideology. It's "Fascinating Womanhood" as medical policy.
We all grew up on Marlo Thomas and William wants a doll and the idea that there are no such things as 'girls things" and "boys things."
You are obviously too young to comment on the 1950s.
I don't like the assertion that "irreversible surgery is the only option."
There are transgender people who don't get surgery. I don't think anyone says surgery is required once you identify as transgender. So he's got an inflammatory false statement in his question.
Follow the chromosomal science.
XX chromosomes = female
XY chromosomes = male
Ann Althouse said...
I don't think anyone says surgery is required once you identify as transgender.
So? Just the Chemical Castration, followed by permanent hormone treatments?
The wisest? I don't know about that but certainly not the most grammatically correct.
Is irreversible surgery the only option, I don't know about that either although I do think that there are some things about it which are shrouded in secrecy and those on the "outside" don't really get the full picture. Irreversible, is that what Musk has a problem with? He'd be okay with gender reassignment surgery if it could be reversible?
There are so few truly "transgender people" as to be a statistical nonentity. I sympathize with them. What we have been seeing a lot of lately, however, is rampant narcissism coupled with a digital megaphone that amplifies the volume. Thus, the internet (as opposed to real people in the real world who have little if anything more than a passing curiosity about the subject) has become an ersatz reality in which anyone can become a "star" for a short period of time. (Hat tip to Andy Warhol, although I'm not sure he knew how profound was his insight.) The issue of "race" is the precursor to "gender," in that it is at the same time, a non-existent concept yet the most important issue facing modern America. These things are Alice's Cheshire Cats, being both there and not-there simultaneously. Only, Alice in Wonderland is an acknowledged piece of fantasy fiction, whereas those fools espousing transgender and anti-racist theories apparently believe them to be true.
The explanation is simple: Transgenderism is a stalking horse for transsexualism. Every aspect of society where gender really matters - the bedroom, women's safe spaces (shelters, restrooms, sports, etc.), diversity of representation - gender is either just a proxy for sex, or the actual segregation is sex-based.
Musk is giving a guy's answer. Women will say it's feelings.
Men's mistakes are skepticism, women's mistakes are foolishness.
NPR last evening had a story or first person narrative from the "pregnant man". The name of the players is less important than the narrative elements so I will refer only to PregMan as PM.
PM is among those transgender people who don't get surgery . PM took hormones which affected the body with a deeper voice, facial hair, and a different distribution and quality of body hair.PM also presented (in a "performative" fashion?) in attire and behavior as male.
The body and performance was successful enough to attract a homosexual male spouse for PM. PM regards the male identity performed as just as much gay as the spouse. So, happy outcome. Both partners were apparently happy with each other's bodies, in a gay way.
When the decision was made to start a family, gay man and transman, necessarily "tried" in the traditional "straight" encounters. (Hormones being omitted for the duration) THe results were not immediate and we infer the encounters were not so repulsive to the parties that they ceased. In fact encounters continued for months, and the ultimate pregnancy surprised PM by being "out of cycle" -- from which we infer the "tries" and encounters were not scheduled appointments endured under the disciplines of the Billings Method but undertaken with some willingness during the ordinary days and nights of the calendar.
So what we are informed of, in short, is a gay man who regularly engages in heterosexual coitus with a transman with a predictable and desired result.
It's hard to pin down exactly in what fashion the transman has surrendered the role of a woman, wife, mother here. It's difficult to see what attractions the woman wife and bed-partner holds for a self-professed homosexual.
In short it seems just as difficult to define "trans" as "woman".
In the case of the Pregnant Man and hormones for body hair ... it's also difficult to regard this level of reversible cosmetic therapy as much more serious than Botox, or maybe Rogaine. Vanity drugs to alter appearances.
"In the case of the Pregnant Man and hormones for body hair ... it's also difficult to regard this level of reversible cosmetic therapy as much more serious than Botox, or maybe Rogaine."
And compared to breast implants, seemingly much less serious.
One wonders about the impact of all those hormones on the baby.
Transgender conversion therapy happens through surgical, medical, and psychiatric corruption, but also through inculcation of political congruence ("=") in popular culture, workplaces, and in classrooms to audiences captured by choice, Choice, and force.
Musk is referring to the Mengele progression that has captured liberal sensibilities.
Sally327 said...
"The wisest? I don't know about that but certainly not the most grammatically correct."
>>>not the most grammatically correct.... what?
"Is irreversible surgery the only option, I don't know about that either although I do think that there are some things about it which are shrouded in secrecy and those on the "outside" don't really get the full picture."
>>>A classic case of a comma splice. Definitely "not the most grammatically correct". It used to get college students F's in English class.
>>>Please tell us what "things" are "shrouded in secrecy".
"Irreversible, is that what Musk has a problem with? He'd be okay with gender reassignment surgery if it could be reversible?"
*************
You are speculating on Musk's opinion regarding things he did not say.
It's clear Musk is pointing out the contradiction between feminist claims that biological sex differences are immaterial, yet at the same time so fundamental that irreversible surgery is touted as essential to transforming oneself into the "opposite" sex.
If you are born female and identify as a man and don't get surgery, are you a man? If you have a vag are you a man? Why?
---"But who is "wiser" than Elon Musk? If the answer is no one, he's nailed down his position while performing open-mindedness. That's wisdom for you."
From bottom up -- that would not be "wisdom," if Elon's purpose was what you seem to be alleging here. It would be shrewdness. He would have outcompeted someone or someones in status for the quality of knowingness. Or supreme punditry.
I doubt he is "performing" anything. That's just an Althouse self-referential tic.
Who is "wiser than Elon Musk"? Many, many might qualify; and I doubt he would argue it. Elon (correctly) presumes, no one WITH common sense will dispute his common-sense observation.
So I doubt this is a self-aggrandizing trick, as Althouse characterizes it, but a simple conversational observation that Elon thinks many will agree with.
“Transwomen and Mormons circa 1962 actually subscribe to the same gender ideology. It's "Fascinating Womanhood" as medical policy.”
Aggressively Catholic!
I read the use of the word "performing" alongside the Musk name as Musk being a fake.
It's weird, because part of me says, how do you know?
I don't really understand what Taibbi is saying about institutionalizing stereotypes. I know that woke requires defining gender so strictly and so narrowly that any deviation constitutes a new gender, but that doesn't seem to be what he's talking about.
Grimes leaves Musk to date a transperson, now Elon has negative opinions about them.
He is quite predictable.
So he's got an inflammatory false statement in his question.
There's no official position I can discern, it's nebulous at best. What's not nebulous; children on hormone blockers. Actually, that could be deflamarory, if there is such a word.
What is a Woman? => Someone that identifies as a Woman
Could you GET more circular than that?
Fun follow up.. If your 12 year olds want beards? is it okay to give them hormones?
If your cis male 12 year old wants a beard if it okay to give HIM hormones?
WOULD YOU?
Penile Enlargement Surgery for 14 year old cis males? Yes? NO?
Boob jobs for 13 year old cis females? YES? NO? why? why not?
Super Fun Follow up follow up!
Your 12 year old tells you, that they NEED neck tattoos. They say, that IF you Don't let them.. They'll KILL Themselves. What do you do?
ALTHOUSE:
There are transgender people who don't get surgery. I don't think anyone says surgery is required once you identify as transgender. So he's got an inflammatory false statement in his question
Obviously, a lot of transgenders are claiming exactly that, or we wouldn't have a push to include surgery as a covered benefit under medical plans, prisoners suing to force prison systems into paying for it, etc.
If they believed lower-cost interventions were sufficient, it would be silly to cover transition surgery at all.
So you've got an inflammatory false statement in your characterization of Musk's Tweet.
You know what? I'm going to defend EM by default first and only change my mind if and when I find out he's wrong. Sort of like JD.
This reminds me of a comment I made a while back, talking about how in today's social climate sex is both all meaning and without meaning. True about gender too. It's both all defining and also without meaning.
As this has gotten more incoherent over the years, but it's become clear the incoherence is actually the goal. It's Calvinball of social and political discourse.
In terms of wisdom, in looking for that earlier comment, I found this really interesting Althouse thread where there were some good points being made by a number of people, including our host.
Dumb Lefty Mark: "Grimes leaves Musk to date a transperson, now Elon has negative opinions about them.
He is quite predictable."
I was wondering which Althouse lefty would pop in first with a moronic "hot take" designed to shift focus off the point Musk actually made and which is obviously and undeniably true.
Congrats Dumb Lefty Mark! You beat gadfly, Left Bank and readering to the Dumb-Lefty-Hot-Take!
Lets see if you can keep it up.....
Musk seems to be making a direct call out of the 'educated strata,' who so often refuse to to think about what they say or say the believe. They cannot see the contradictions in "their creeds" because each are only espoused for the moment. It's not something new. von Mises pointed out how gullible the "educated" 70+ years ago.
"The fading of the critical sense is a serious menace to the preservation of our civilization. It makes it easy for quacks to fool the people. It is remarkable that the educated strata are more gullible than the less educated. The most enthusiastic supporters of Marxism, Nazism, and Fascism were the intellectuals, not the boors. The intellectuals were never keen enough to see the manifest contradictions of their creeds. It did not in the least impair the popularity of Fascism that Mussolini in the same speech praised the Italians as the representatives of the oldest Western civilization and as the youngest among the civilized nations. No German nationalist minded it when dark-haired Hitler, corpulent Goering, and lame Goebbels were praised as the shining representatives of the tall, slim, fair-haired, heroic Aryan master race. Is it not amazing that many millions of non-Russians are firmly convinced that the Soviet regime is democratic, even more democratic than America?"
von Mises, Ludwig (1945). Bureaucracy
These statistics are from 2017, but this was at a point where gender confirming surgeries had a big uptick. In that study, about 50% of trans men (female to male) had top (breast removal) surgery. A smaller percentage of trans men had hysterectomies, and a smaller number still had genital reconfiguration surgeries.
The study shows similar, though lower across the board, percentages exist for trans women.
Partially, these numbers reflect the availability of doctors to perform the surgeries. Top surgery (removing or adding false breasts) is a standard procedure other medical reasons, same with hysterectomies and gonad removal. Genital construction surgery is a very specific field.
Taibbi reviews the Woman question documentary.
link to review
There are transgender people who don't get surgery.
You forgot to complete the sentence: …because the government doesn’t yet provide the surgery for free.
“Some days it feels like the world is filled with nothing but crazies and horrible news…
And other days you realize it’s not just some days.”
Just read this on Pinterest.
Sums up my view.
I’d say drama is a full time occupation of a whole lotta people who have nothing better to do.
1st world performative existence.
I’m heading to the barn.
There is a fundamental contradiction at the base of the gender nonsense, but Musk hasn't quite teased it out. The logic of traditional society is that the set of societal expectations the Left fascists have chosen to call "gender" are based in sex, and thus are ultimately biological. Feminists were happy to go along with the idea that this gender -- wearing dresses and long hair, devoting your time to raising children -- was not biological, but "socially constructed", because that justified discarding the parts they did not like, while clinging like grim death to the parts they did like. However, if gender is not based in biology, then there is no meaningful distinction between women and men. If societal expectations recognize such a distinction, and privilege women, there is no biological basis for that privilege. Indeed, since there is no legitimate way to "be" a woman, there aren't any real women, only people "claiming" to be women. Womanhood has no defining properties, which is why Ketanji Brown can't define it. Although perhaps once she's seated on the Supreme Court, she'll know it when she sees it. There is some precedent for that. You don't have to be Latina to Wise up once you put on that roomy black garment.
"There are transgender people who don't get surgery."
Oh, really? Do you have any evidence for that assertion?
Which word are you hanging your hat on: "anyone", "surgery", or "required"? Because as noted, people are, perhaps not surgery but drugs that accomplish the same, so that just leave required. I seem to recall a mom getting a judge to agree that she could put her child on hormone blockers against the father's objection, and of course the child is not old enough to make such a medical decision. I'll count that as required. Others are pointing to demands that surgery or drugs must be covered by insurance or state medical plans for inmates.
Ann Althouse said...
I don't like the assertion that "irreversible surgery is the only option."
There are transgender people who don't get surgery. I don't think anyone says surgery is required once you identify as transgender. So he's got an inflammatory false statement in his question.
Then you need to have a chat with the people handing out "gender affirming medication" (drugs that can permanently destroy your ability to have an orgasm from sex)to kids like Pez.
And you need to have a chat with the people demanding that all health insurance cover that "irreversible surgery", and that any that don't pay for it are "transphobic".
Because the demand that it be covered is a statement that it's required.
"But who is "wiser" than Elon Musk? If the answer is no one, he's nailed down his position while performing open-mindedness. That's wisdom for you."
If the answer is that YOU are wiser, than Musk, and disagree with his position, then he's invited you to use your wisdom to explain why he's wrong.
If you can't use your wisdom to explain why he's wrong, then clearly you are not wiser than him. No?
Please allow me to expand his statement for you:
1: "A trans woman is a woman" is a statement that a human being born with a penis, where > 80% of the cells that have chromosomes have a Y chromosome, nevertheless becomes female simply by stating "I am female"
If this statement is true, then one does not need "gender affirming medicine" / puberty blockers / hormone treatments / gender reassignment surgery, all one need do is say "I am [fe]male" and that's that you are.
Therefore we can block any "gender clinic" from using surgery / drugs on people, most certainly on children, because they're not necessary. There's also no problem with insurance plans not covering such "treatments", because they're unnecessary
2: "It is appropriate and correct for doctors to prescribe "gender affirming medicine" for kids, and all health insurance, including prison health coverage, must cover "gender reassignment surgery", is a statement that mere feelings are NOT enough, that you must actually effect a physical change in order to have a gender change, that not allowing & paying for such things is "anti-trans", because "trans change" requires a physical & biological change.
In that case a "trans woman" is only actually a woman once the "gender reassignment surgery" has finished.
So what Musk is correctly saying is that if you pretend to aspire to honesty and rationality, you can believe at most only one of those two statements.
There are transgender people who don't get surgery.
Trans/homosexuals, bisexuals, and rare trans/sexual individuals who exhibit "stable" divergence from sex-correlated gender attributes.
There are transgender people who don't get surgery. I don't think anyone says surgery is required once you identify as transgender. So he's got an inflammatory false statement in his question.
Those are the guys in skirts who rape young girls in bathrooms. I'd happily cut off their dicks. How about you ?
Allow me to clarify. I don't mean, "Do you have evidence that some transgender people have not gotten surgery?". I mean, do you have evidence that there are "transgender people"? Are there transgender monkeys? Dogs? Water buffalos? Transgender fish? Octopi? Paramecia? Flowering plants? I mean, look, maybe we are all Napoleon, but I can think of a simpler explanation of the fact that some of us say they are Napoleon.
Ann,
There are transgender people who don't get surgery. I don't think anyone says surgery is required once you identify as transgender. So he's got an inflammatory false statement in his question.
So if you're a big, fat, bearded, hairy man (sorry for the stereotyping, but it's illustrative), all you need to be "transgender" is to say "I am a woman," and everything else follows naturally (if I can use such a word in this context)? Such people do exist. They "identify as" female, but aren't keen to ditch the penis, or the testes, or any male secondary sex characteristics. Though they will lay claim to any female-specific bennies on offer, of course.
Sorry, but everything about this is wrong, and I do mean everything. The same goes for FTM, of course; they want to be "male," but they aren't gonna give up the "right" to become preggers.
These people, with their finely-honed gender antennae, are in the having-it-all business, full stop. They want everything, which goes well beyond the forced admiration from everyone else that is now their due.
“These people, with their finely-honed gender antennae, are in the having-it-all business, full stop. They want everything, which goes well beyond the forced admiration from everyone else that is now their due.“
Delusion.
Deception.
I still believe they are hiding.
Blogger Ann Althouse said...
There are transgender people who don't get surgery. I don't think anyone says surgery is required once you identify as transgender.
I do. I think a lot of other people do to.
If you claim to be transgender, get the surgery. If you don't you are just roleplayng and can quit at any time.
Getting the surgery doesn't make a man into a woman or vice-versa. It merely proves a committment to their professed belief.
John LGBTQ Henry
I grew up calling a bolt "male" and a nut "female". I also learned never to mate them without a washer.
https://bit.ly/3NMgZma
Also pipe and electrical fittings.
I was thinking about this the other day as I was discussing with my son what we needed for a plumbing project.
Is it still OK to talk about male/female in this context? It got me worried it might be construed as sexist.
Even worse, it might be construed as transphobic. Why do we assume that a bolt is male just because it goes into a female nut?
This whole male goes into female thing seems to be out the window now that vaginaed people claim to be male and penised people claim to be female.
OTOH, I don't know any other way to talk about it and it essential language for my kind of work.
What is the preferred term to describe a male and female thread now?
John LGBTQ Henry
"There are transgender people who don't get surgery. I don't think anyone says surgery is required once you identify as transgender. So he's got an inflammatory false statement in his question."
The main public debate on transgenderism that I see is about the conditions for using puberty blockers on children. These hormone therapies are partly irreversible - if you miss puberty, you can't entirely make it up later. So, I think Musk's point stands, even though hyperbole.
Also, my impression was that most woman-to-man transgender people do eventually get the top surgery. It's hard to be percieved as a man when you have breasts.
Is there anyone who actually cares about adult transgenderism in a political way? Jenner was the most prominent adult transgender person, and was a kind of a joke for a while, but that's largely passed. Maybe because Jenner joined the Red team, so transgender people are okay now as long as they're on the right side.
What is the preferred term to describe a male and female thread now?
that's simple... Cock and Cunt..
Make Sure you're placed a washer in between before you screw the cock into the cunt
Is a "street elbo" transgender?
For non-plumbers a street elbo is a 90 or 45 degree fitting that is male on one side and female on the other. As opposed to the normal elbo with both sides female.
John LGBTQ Henry
"What is the preferred term to describe a male and female thread now?"
Lately, I have seen "internally threaded" and "externally threaded" used. Not sure why this is any better than "male" and "female" but apparently, communication is not what's important in a language anymore.
The "transgender" California Lutheran bishop who quit is a bit of a puzzle. She has a woman's name but calls herself "they."
Is she a man who became a woman, or just a lesbian who identifies as a man? Or is she/they "nonbinary," which to my thinking isn't "trans" at all.
Only her/their hairdresser knows for sure.
“Maybe because Jenner joined the Red team, so transgender people are okay now as long as they're on the right side.“
I don’t think that’s it, but it does help that s/he seems less ecstatic over little children being passed around during burlesque-like transvestism romps and rituals. And especially doesn’t seem to be espousing “teacher-knows-best” dribble who say to their students: “you don’t have to tell your parents, especially if you feel unsafe.”
Which implies {{it will be our(dirty little)secret}}
Grooming.
farmgirl @ 2:35
They can pretend to be whatever they wish and go through great lengths to play out their fantasies. But reason requires that I deal in the world of real things and ideas.
Octopodes.
Blogger Steven said...
Is there anyone who actually cares about adult transgenderism in a political way?
Yes, there are, and SHOULD be
1: Until you've chopped your dick off, you should not be going into women's spaces (locker rooms, bathrooms, prisons, etc)
2: No one who was born with a penis should ever be able to compete in "women's" sports
Those are both significant political issues
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