More, here, at the Miami Herald. Miami-Dade County has sent the owners a property tax bill of nearly $120,000, but there's a state constitutional law provision barring property tax on boats. What makes a boat? The lawyer for the owners says the county is relying on "the shape and the style and the look" of what the lawyer calls "this boat."
This isn't just an isolated case. This thing — "The Arkup" — has been touted in mainstream media and is intended as a model for extensive new housing development — "small apartments on the water for students, townhouses for families.... housing solutions for a broader audience." I can see why the promoters of this kind of floating house-building stress future benefits for the non-rich, but the real house/boat in issue in this case belongs to rich people.
Who should pay property taxes? Why should land-based domicile-owners pay the bills? Should you have to change that state constitutional law provision first, or is it enough for the government to draw the boat/house distinction in the way that allows for more tax collection?
But houseboats have been around for ages, so you'd think this problem would have been worked out long ago.
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३९ टिप्पण्या:
Property tax is at its most fundamental a feudal holdover institution from an era when land was never owned outright, but provided as a passthrough of the liege lord's sovereignty and a 'privilege' requiring maintenance and payment.
The only tax question that needs asking is whether or not you own property that can be taxed for no other purpose than the fact that you own it.
I would propose that if govt/society/nations can tax you unambiguously just for owning property you do not, in fact, own it.
Should the politicians get to ignore the constitution of the state? No- full stop. If they want to start taxing these houseboats, they need to change the constitution. To debate this concedes the argument to the politicians.
Property taxes are immoral. The result of property taxes is that you do not own your property, you are renting it from the government, negating the concept of private property ownership. We paid $50k/year in PTs on L.I., and moved because we couldn't afford to "own" our property anymore.
Governments can get by on income tax, sales tax, capital gains tax (ex-homes, or at least adjust home sales for inflation), and usage taxes (e.g. tolls).
I think the tax folks will fail. Decades ago ships began to split below water structures from the above water living areas. Cruise ships are now boats on the bottom but lightweight and open floor plan apartment blocks on top. Plus, a pointy nose to move more efficiently.
https://i.insider.com/5f5a54307ed0ee001e25e8b1?width=700
https://realitypod.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/harmony-of-the-seas-3.jpg
https://cruisepassenger.com.au/news/harmony-seas-numbers/
Every generation of cruise ship has more and more elaborate shopping districts, amusement areas, dining areas, lounge/pool areas, etc. These resemble the common areas of a resort hotel.
This photo shows a boxy boat. If it floats and moves it is plainly a boat.
Call it a yat, after yurt. That makes it a house.
That’s a fine looking houseboat in that video!! We have several custom houseboats at the lake, similar to the one pictured but without the all-glass sides. They’re boats. Registered as boats, required to carry life jackets, etc. Some lack propulsion, which would seem to be a defining characteristic between house and boat, but they’re still boats.
It has an engine and it moves. That makes it a boat.
Here in Seattle, house boats are moored. The State of Washington owns the land under the mooring. A one-bedroom house boat is on the market for $800K and pays a monthly mooring fee of $510.
I’m not a marine biologist, so I’m keeping my powder dry.
When you make rules, don't be surprised when people follow those rules. Doubly so for rich people. Rich (sic) people get a lot of tax credits because those are the rules the government made. Rich people don't pay a lot in taxes because they are following the rules the politicians made.
Ask John Kerry, somewhat of expert on applying maritime tax laws.
But we can wrap this together with Biden's new tax on wealth. How? Tax the RICH! Right.
So around the corner through the side door, is SALT taxes. State And Local Taxes. ie, SALT deductions on federal income tax liability. Democrats want to go back to SALT deductions as a payoff to their rich voting base, at the same time tax wealth of the Richest Yes two contradicting programs. That's how we know they are a Democrat agenda items.
You can tax property of any sort. A car is property. A boat is property. A house is property. A permanently moored floating structure is property. What Miami-Dade wants to do is tax this boat in a category that earns the county more money, because definitions are fluid to progressives. This isn't rule of law. This is, what can we get away with because there is no punishment mechanism for trying.
Cedar Rapids has been doing this, for YEARS
here's a whole story about it
Ellis Harbor is a unique neighborhood consisting of people who spend their summers living on the Cedar River, some for many generations
Here's one for sale!!
Boat_House__34900_Ellis_Harbor_.jpg
Of course, The Downside IS: You'd Have to live in Cedar Rapids (and on the SW side :()
Serious (yet, snarky) Question
Since, we can All Agree, that:
a) All land in this country was STOLEN from the Indians
b) you only have to pay property taxes on land that is Yours
WHY should we have to pay property taxes? Seems like, if Anyone should pay: it's Indians
Houses sit on land. Boats just float on water. Water can't be sold. Land can. Houses are also priced on location, and Boats can float anywhere in the ocean. Houses require roads and water and gas lines, etc. Boats don't need gas, water lines.
I wonder if property tax had some justification in the voting laws. If you owned property and was taxed, you had voting rights because of your tax payer status. Now that we have taxes on income, that justification is lost. I do not like property tax because it required you to continually pay for something you already bought and requires you to have an active income to be able to live on your own property or be forced to sell and rent from someone else. That seems immoral to me.
To tax boats, do a licensing fee based on the value of the item. Not that I like that either, but it is a workaround.
Ultimately the fairest way to tax is to tax income because it is taking from individuals who have something to give. Taxing purchases and property is less ideal because it forces people to generate income to keep what they already own.
You can't get away from the fact that the government needs money to operate. Usually not as much as they take, but that is a different question.
"Of course, The Downside IS: You'd Have to live in Cedar Rapids"
I had some business training there. We went to a Kernels game on dollar beer night. People were happy and friendly. Nice not so little town. Plus it smelled like Cheerios. What's not to like?
But houseboats have been around for ages, so you'd think this problem would have been worked out long ago.
This is the government.
They want money.
The only place they can get money is from productive useful people.
It is time to start looking at voluntary tax regimes. Taxes should never be passed without 75% support of the taxed people.
There are a few remaking stilt houses in Biscayne Bay. Not sure if they pay property taxes.
Here’s Article VII Section 1(b) of the Florida Constitution:
“Motor vehicles, boats, airplanes, trailers, trailer coaches and mobile homes, as defined by law, shall be subject to a license tax for their operation in the amounts and for the purposes prescribed by law, but shall not be subject to ad valorem taxes.”
While it would seem that “as defined by law” means the Florida legislature could define the term “boat” to exclude houseboats, here’s how they did define boat in Title XXIV 327.02(47):
‘“Vessel” is synonymous with boat as referenced in s. 1(b), Art. VII of the State Constitution and includes every description of watercraft, barge, and airboat, other than a seaplane on the water, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.’
Miami-Dade seems to be hanging it’s tax on calling it a “floating structure” rather than a boat. If the pronouncements of the county are considered law for purposes of the provision in the state constitution, the county wins, right? It is true that not everything that floats is a boat. I don’t think a floating dock is a boat, even if it is capable of being used for transportation by detaching it and using it as a raft. And the county also has the license tax route, assuming it wants to pursue taxing things like this.
Why should land-based domicile-owners pay the bills?
Henry George would explain "Land Rents".
That concept begins with the axiom that society CAN NOT create new "places" to live or work. This boat thing changes the calculation. By how much, -- a question to be determined.
Curious George said...
Cedar Rapids"
Plus it smelled like Cheerios. What's not to like?
Of the five smells, the Capt Crunch (NOT Cheerios!) is By FAR, the most best.
I was born in Cedar Rapids (by 42nd st), so i'm entitled to complain..
But, in fairness to the city, I Should have said..
"Of course, The Downside IS: You'd Have to live on the North West side"
How is that not a boat?
Boats don't require roads? I've never met a full-time boat dweller in Florida who doesn't use the same public services--roads, police, emts, firemen, schools for those who have children (as homeowners without children also pay), local zoning for things like grocery stores and septic control -- as do homeowners. If you live in one place on a boat, why shouldn't you pay property taxes? People who live full-time in mobile home parks pay property taxes, though conceivably they could move their homes to a different location. And land dwellers get taxed for part of the special aquatic rescue units we need for boaters, and for drawbridges.
I'm guessing the big docking lobby is pushing this rule change to shift costs. Just as the AARP is always pushing to lower property taxes for people over 65 to shift costs. It's just the dance of special interests.
"If it floats and moves it is plainly a boat."
Does that rule apply to those "structures" (formerly houses) floating down the Missouri, the Ohio, or the Mississippi during Spring floods?
When I sold my house in CA 10 years ago, I discovered a tax lien that I had not known about. It was for property taxes on a boat slip I rented from the City of Los Angeles. I protested and forget what the rationale was for this absurdity but I paid to close the escrow. Then I moved to Arizona.
"Does that rule apply to those "structures" (formerly houses) floating down the Missouri, the Ohio, or the Mississippi during Spring floods?"
I'm pretty sure that if the assessor has to swim to get to it, it isn't a house anymore.
Tina Trent honestly believes boat owners are stealing from her.
As I understand it, the FL constitution exempts it from any kind of al valorem taxation if it is a boat. IOW, "boat" is a safe harbor (no pun intended). (Seems to me that it is a boat, btw.)
However, even if it didn't qualify as a boat, wouldn't that still leave open the question whether it is REAL ESTATE and therefore subject to real estate taxation? I mean, the fact that it ISN'T a boat doesn't ipso facto mean it IS real estate. It could be neither a boat nor real estate; it could belong to some other category for which there is no applicable tax provision.
"Vessel” is synonymous with boat as referenced in s. 1(b), Art. VII of the State Constitution and includes every description of watercraft, barge, and airboat, other than a seaplane on the water, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.’
LeftBank, that clause, which I got from your comment, forecloses what Miami-Dade is attempting to do- and forecloses it outright. Basically, Miami-Dade's new property tax would only apply to houseboats that aren't actually floating or moveable at all on their own across water.
Of course, I understand that you are just attempting to argue that Miami-Dade can just ignore the plain meaning of the clause and make up whatever definition they want to apply to such structures. And I freely admit, they might succeed given the decline of our judiciary arguments that have come unmoored from the actual meanings of words.
BJ of "BJ and the Bear" fame used to toaunt the local tax officials every week:”And of all I don’t pay Pa-roperty tax!”
It's a house boat. I saw them fix up a similar house boat on Fixer Upper a few years ago and liked the finished product. I don't see how it would survive a hurricane.
Florida charges a sales tax on vehicles and vessels payable at purchase or when you obtain your license but I see that the law caps the sales tax at $18,000.
Travis McGee is going to be very upset by this tax.
What makes a boat?
You have to ask a marine biologist.
"Of course, I understand that you are just attempting to argue that Miami-Dade can just ignore the plain meaning of the clause and make up whatever definition they want to apply to such structures."
Like children, progressives want what they want and it doesn't matter to them how they get it. Making shit up is just as good a way as any.
Here in Seattle, house boats are moored.
Today, the houseboats are really sought after by the no-offspring crowd. Dual incomes, no kids.
One hundred years ago, the houseboats were built by the lumber, and mining companies. It was a place for their laborers. In the 1920's, the houseboats were considered a health hazard.
.....and I can't forget "Sleepless in Seattle".
House boat property taxes?
Middle aged bachelor TV private eyes and Joe Manchin hardest hit.
Russell, I never said what you accuse me of saying. I lived on the water in Florida for years and knew several people who lived on docked boats and didn't have another house. But it's not like they weren't using the same roads and public services homeowners have to support. They all had cars. They used fire and police and emergency services. Public education is supposed to be supported by property taxes, so why wouldn't they be asked to pay their share? In fact, all Floridians living in flood zones, including me, were ripping off all federal taxpayers who had to subsidize our flood insurance until around 2011, I believe. My flood insurance went from $1500 to $11,000 in one year. Luckily, the American insurance lobbyists in Tallahassee failed to pass a law preventing us from buying flood insurance from foreign companies. Lloyd's of London, which invented insurance a very long time ago, sold me and my neighbors policies for about what we were paying before, even though the American companies tried to outlaw the practice in the state legislature.
It isn't logic or emotions that guide any of this. It's whose lobbyist wins.
Richard said...
Travis McGee is going to be very upset by this tax.
McGee and his boat-buddy pals already confronted this scenario, back in 1972's The Scarlet Ruse:
After seven years of bickering and fussing, the Fort Lauderdamndale city fathers, on a hot Tuesday in late August, killed off a life style and turned me into a vagrant.
“Permanent habitation aboard all watercraft within the city limits is prohibited.”
And that ordinance included everything and everybody from the Alabama Tiger aboard his plush ’Bama Gal, running the world’s longest floating houseparty, all the way down to the shackiest little old pontoon cottage snugged into the backwater mangroves.
It included Meyer, the hairy economist, living comfortably aboard his dumpy little cruiser, The John Maynard Keynes, low in the water with the weight of financial tomes and journals in five languages and chess texts and problems in seven.
It included me and my stately and substantial old barge-type houseboat, the Busted Flush. The edict caught me off balance. I had not thought I was so thoroughly imbedded in any particular environment that being detached would be traumatic. Travis McGee is not hooked by things or by places, I told myself.
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