From "Sometimes Altruism Needs to Be Enforced" by Nicholas A. Christakis (The Atlantic).
२० ऑक्टोबर, २०२१
"Some people are clearly more altruistic than others. But even these super-cooperators can’t do all the heavy lifting alone."
"Haphazard or individual-level efforts to be helpful are rarely sufficient to keep cooperation going in a larger population. For one thing, a cooperator surrounded by noncooperators will usually stop being helpful—for who wants to be a chump? Yet devolving to an 'every man for himself' dynamic is injurious to all. That’s no way to fight a plague.... We also practice punishment and ostracism, both of which can, in the right circumstances, foster cooperation. Shunning transgressors comes naturally to us precisely because, in our ancestral past, it was useful for our collective survival.... Indeed, President Joe Biden announced a broad series of interventions last month, including requiring all employers with more than 100 employees to mandate vaccination and doing the same for federal workers and others.... We do not need to see these actions in a negative or even authoritarian light. They are not simply the workings of our political system. They are rooted in our ancient past, helping us survive.
Seen from an evolutionary perspective, putting our thumb on the scale of the COVID-19 response allows our natural impulse toward goodness to flourish. And such efforts are in keeping with our fundamental instincts to be altruistic and cooperative in the first place. As Albert Camus argued in his novel The Plague, 'What’s true of all the evils in the world is true of the plague as well. It helps men and women to rise above themselves.'"
Tags:
Albert Camus,
biden,
Christakis,
coronavirus,
evolution,
morality
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"Sometimes Altruism Needs to Be Enforced"
If it's enforced, is it altruism?
I feel a diminishing quantum of sympathy for Nicholas Christakis, who (with his wife) was badly treated by the feral undergraduate crybullies and then by an invertebrate administration at Yale several years ago. But it seems the longer-term effect is Stockholm Syndrome. His argument in this instance is all very pretty but it rests on nonexistent science and a willful ignorance of the law. Biden and his minions have no legal or Constitutional authority to impose this mandate and deputize private employers to do their bidding. And they have no science to justify the strategy of massive vaccination —among those with immune deficiencies (whom it may injure) and those who have acquired immunity from previous infection (whom it will not help).
All this talk about cooperation and punishing free riders etc is misplaced. He should know that and just stay quiet.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
― C. S. Lewis
Codswallop clothed in high sounding phrases. I've done my "lifting' re the vaccine (two shots of Moderna) and have absolutely no desire to impose that lift on the unvaccinated.
Altruism is a kissing cousin to civility bullshit. Don't encourage it.
True altruists, like the truely civil, are almost as rare as unicorns.
"If it's enforced, is it altruism?"
Of course not. If it's not voluntary, it's just following orders.
@Owen. Like he said. First you need to be right. If half the country thinks you're wrong, you either can't force them or can't do it without destroying the country.
"Shunning transgressors comes naturally to us precisely because, in our ancestral past, it was useful for our collective survival.... Indeed, President Joe Biden announced a broad series of interventions last month, including requiring all employers with more than 100 employees to mandate vaccination and doing the same for federal workers and others.... We do not need to see these actions in a negative or even authoritarian light."
You know, a monarch.
"We do not need to see these actions in a negative or even authoritarian light."
Because, you know, we are definitely *not* the baddies.
"We also practice punishment and ostracism, both of which can, in the right circumstances, foster cooperation."
Well, he should know. He is really co-operating here.
I suppose he either is practicing Soviet-like/Maoist confession, or he is not at all self-aware. I'd say it is the first, because no one could fail to see the the self-humiliation of Nick Christakis rationalizing punishment and ostracism as acceptable means of creating "co-operation." That must have been a hell of a struggle session.
Next up: the Christakis family list of "safe" Halloween costumes.
Context from "The Plague":
“However, you think, like Paneloux, that the plague has its good side; it opens men’s eyes and forces them to take thought?”
The doctor tossed his head impatiently.
“So does every ill that flesh is heir to. What’s true of all the evils in the world is true of plague as well. It helps men to rise above themselves. All the same, when you see the misery it brings, you’d need to be a madman, or a coward, or stone blind, to give in tamely to the plague.”
Rieux had hardly raised his voice at all; but Tarrou made a slight gesture as if to calm him. He was smiling.
“Yes.” Rieux shrugged his shoulders. “But you haven’t answered my question yet. Have you weighed the consequences?”
Tarrou squared his shoulders against the back of the chair, then moved his head forward into the light. “Do you believe in God, Doctor?”
Camus, Albert. The Plague (Vintage International) (pp. 125-126). Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
A plague with a 98% survival rate is not really a plague, you know. It's a bad flu.
The folks supporting vaccine mandates are not acting out of any kind of altruistic impulse. To the contrary, in my experience, they are very, very angry.
Psychological egoism raises its ugly head. Are there any altruistic acts?
"Haphazard or individual-level efforts to be helpful are rarely sufficient to keep cooperation going in a larger population."
In other words... "People won't voluntarily do the things I think they should."
Pro tip- If they won't, you might want to reconsider what it is you're insisting they should do.
A plague with a 98% survival rate is not really a plague, you know. It's a bad flu.
Eh, 2% is quite bad -- that would equate to about 7 million dead in the US. That's more than a bad flu. Fortunately the actual survival rate pre-vaccine seems to have been rather higher than 98%, particularly since many cases are asymptomatic and don't get picked up in the statistics. But perhaps the India variant is worse.
All that said, the vaccine provides sufficient protection that -- other than people who work closely with the elderly or otherwise vulnerable, for whom vaccination still leaves them with roughly the same risk as an unvaccinated 50-something -- it doesn't really make sense to require others to vaccinate. Just vaccinate yourself and have done with it. The risk calculation just isn't severe enough that it makes sense to force everyone else to get vaccinated if they don't want to.
And I say this as someone who is vaccinated, is thinking about getting a booster soon, and wears a KF94 mask when I go out.
The reason to be altruistic is that it's good for you. It turns into a habit.
Balfegor, with people with no comorbidities, I've heard it's 99.5 percent.
Worse, it's been shown that cloth masks don't work. Lockdowns don't work.
We're going on two years of our elites battering the economy, and it's time to stop. They've lost all public confidence. They need to stop it.
Enlisting companies to unlawfully do the work of government is fascism. Biden is a facist, straight up.
The difference is that even with the same infection fatality rate as a "bad flu" it will still kill a lot more people because it's more infectious and the population is immunologically naive.
I am sorry that you need the ability to reason quantitatively to understand the above.
The fundamental flaw is the idea that you should do good with someone else's money, or "do good" through threat of government violence.
Milton Friedman on how easy it is to fall back to the normal state of tyranny and misery.
https://youtu.be/gaPO4j85irY?t=362
Less than 3% of the US population donated blood. I'm well over 14 gallons donated. Just started platelet donation.
Now if they just started forcing the 38% of the eligible population to donate once a year- there'd never be a blood shortage. That's what forced altruism would result in. And- infinitely more valuable to public health than the dreaded covid vaccination. Another anecdote in evidence- double jabbed Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas, tested positive for Covid-19 on Tuesday, according to a DHS spokesperson. Double jabbed and infected. Me? Never jabbed, never infected.
I can't help but wonder if Christakis would take this enforced altruism if it was in form of forcing those such as he and his family who stayed sheltered in their home to come out and lend a hand to the thousands who kept the food and supplies moving, the electricity, water and bit flowing, and the heat and AC working, the ill cared for every day. Leaving their home when the pundit and government wisdom was we were all going to die. Did he give much thought to those who fell ill with the sickness, survived and now don't see the need for a specific antigen vaccine when they have natural broad spectrum immunity.
"And such efforts are in keeping with our fundamental instincts to be altruistic and cooperative in the first place."
Authoritarian imposition of unprecedented mandates is in keeping with progressive instincts to force compliance with expert opinion. If our fundamental instincts were to cooperate, and if the people judged universal vaccination a necessary form of cooperation, coercion would not be required.
Hey, Professor Christakis, are people, particularly young people, who acquired natural immunity by getting infected "cooperating"?
Some young man gets hole in his heart from taking the vaccine as ordered even though he'd had covid and had natural immunity. Was he altruistic or coerced? Was the order enforcing altruism or stuck-on-stupid when it ignored natural immunity and resulted in damaging this young man for life for no reason? Pinhead administrator and altruist aren't the same.
Anyone who lacks the awareness that enforcing their vision of altruism on others by force will fit right in to a fascist society, with never a thought to question what the state mandates.
I used to think that at least the editors of The Atlantic understood that words generally have quite specific definitions. Alas.
Some of the Morlocks think they are the good guys. The Eoli, largely, agree.
including requiring all employers with more than 100 employees to mandate vaccination
Show me Biden's mandate. I don't believe he has issued any such mandate, only press statements.
Gospace,
I and my husband have both been barred from donating blood for decades, since both of us were in the UK for about a year each in the 80s. We are therefore prospective carriers of Creuzfeldt-Jakob Disease. I think this ban may finally have been lifted this year, but there has been little hue and cry about it, as opposed to the ban on MSM (men who have had sex with other men), who were banned b/c HIV.
Me, I think that the infinitesimal chance that I could pass on the prions associated with CJD is less than the risk of a man passing on HIV. But that's just me. Not the experts.
Lobsters are naturally altruistic at least according to Jordan Peterson
Christakis can go fuck himself sideways.
"Sometimes Altruism Needs to Be Enforced"
Right up there with:
"Arbeit macht frei"
I am like super altruistic, so much that I care about others and the Earth far more than I care about myself.
Lobsters are naturally altruistic at least according to Jordan Peterson.
When you got nothing, you go to Jordan Peterson and misrepresent what you never read and clearly do not understand.
The cognitive decline of the Left amazes me. There was a time when leftwing thought was considered to be truly intellectual. Now they are just annoying twits who stick their thumbs up their butts and think they have grasped something meaningful.
Maybe that is why they love Uncle Joe. Birds of a feather and all ...
"Sometimes Altruism Needs to Be Enforced"
That's how rapists think.
I hear that Africans brought to the new world were quite altruistic, although that also had to be enforced sometimes...
This reads like it was copied from a speech by Mussolini or Hitler.
"Lobsters are naturally altruistic at least according to Jordan Peterson"
They draw straws to see who gets the honor of walking into the lobster pots.
How about funding a better vaccine (like the nasal vaccines under development) so we don't have to put up with this nonsense?
Why isn't that a priority? Why aren't COVID treatment drugs a priority? Why all this bullshit about masks and cards?
Don't these people realize COVID is never going away? Everyone is going to be exposed eventually. We cannot eradicate it with the current vaccines and masks and everything else. It is not possible, scientifically, to eradicate COVID. It has animal hosts. Are we going to be paranoid about it forever?
I understand that liberals get off on unity, but what has actually saved lives was the Trump administration throwing money at vaccine manufacturers. Masks help, sure, but everyone is going to get exposed over time. If your immune system isn't prepared you can get really sick or die.
It is perfectly rational to wonder about the costs to human liberty from an "emergency" that is never going to end, especially when there seems to be very little interest in effective ways to end it.
We've eradicated one human disease ever. One. Get over it.
Also, the link to the atlantic article is bad. I googled it to read it.
"Lobsters are naturally altruistic at least according to Jordan Peterson"
It's kind of weird to realize that at one time chicken was considered a rich man's food, and lobster was fobbed off on the poor and prisoners.
There are two ways to make someone do that which they do not wish to do. One is by reason and the other is by force. If they disagree with your reasoning then the other alternative is force. However, do not be surprised is they respond with an even greater force than your own.
Howard: "Lobsters are naturally altruistic at least according to Jordan Peterson"
Uh, no. Not even close. But then when you can't hold a candle to someone, well, you do this sort of thing.
>>"Sometimes Altruism Needs to Be Enforced"
As I mentioned in another thread, the modern left is all about force.
For them:
Step 1: "We think this is good"
Step 2: "We will use force against those who disagree"
As many others have pointed out, if their ideas were really beneficial, they wouldn't need force.
>>Show me Biden's mandate. I don't believe he has issued any such mandate, only press statements.
"has issued", no. "will issue", yes. Not much room for doubt.
"The Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) is developing a rule that will require all employers with 100 or more employees to ensure their workforce is fully vaccinated or require any workers who remain unvaccinated to produce a negative test result on at least a weekly basis before coming to work.
OSHA will issue an Emergency Temporary Standard (ETS) to implement this requirement. This requirement will impact over 80 million workers in private sector businesses with 100+ employees."
How is it altruistic to force people to do the WRONG thing? We have a pandemic of the DOUBLE VACCINATED. The only way out of COVID is for everyone to get COVID, for many moderated by a double shot. If some get there without a shot, it is the same. The only reason Biden is mandating vaccines is political. It is well known that he went to mandates in the face of plummeting polls to prove he is doing something about COVID. Does anyone remember when Biden ran for office accusing Trump as being responsible for EVERY covid death? Now America has seen more deaths under Biden in less than a year than for a full year under Trump. Yet Biden promised voters to stop COVID deaths.
There is NOTHING altruistic about vaccine mandates. I would accept anti-scientific or stupid, but not altruistic. Biden and Democrats always fall back on policies that divide Americans and vilify some. Totally political strategy.
We do not need to see these actions in a negative or even authoritarian light.
True. You can lie about them instead.
"Sometimes Altruism Needs to Be Enforced" by Nicholas A. Christakis (The Atlantic).
Hey Nick: by definition it's not "altruism" if it's forced. So why don't you FOAD?
"putting our thumb on the scale of the COVID-19 response allows our natural impulse toward goodness to flourish."
And when a thumb won't do, a fist.
Even if it risks making the virus harder to deal with.
But by all means, don't let doctors explore FDA approved drugs for prophylaxis or early treatment. Have "altruistic" pharmacists practice medecine as they block prescriptions.
And oh..
It's been 2 months.
Has anyone heard a peep about this?:
FDA authorizes REGEN-COV monoclonal antibody therapy for post-exposure prophylaxis (prevention) for COVID-19
Regeneron must have shitty lobbyists...
The biggest supermarket in Belmont, MA has had a sign at its front door for two months telling
its customers they need to wear ---and I quote--- "a non-medical mask" to come inside.
That make any sense to anyone?
aside to Balfegor: do you wear your mask when you go "out" ...outside into the fresh air? To drive your car?
If so you have wandered very, very far from science or even common sense.
tim in vermont said...
The difference is that even with the same infection fatality rate as a "bad flu" it will still kill a lot more people...
--
And the "vax" will harm more due to jabbing everyone with an arm...all the way down to little kids and "pregnant people".
Madness.
Senator Rand Paul
@RandPaul
·
4h
“I told you so” doesn’t even begin to cover it here:
Quote Tweet
Richard H. Ebright
@R_H_Ebright
· 7h
NIH corrects untruthful assertions by NIH Director Collins and NIAID Director Fauci that NIH had not funded gain-of-function research in Wuhan.
NIH states that EcoHealth Alliance violated Terms and Conditions of NIH grant AI110964
Re: Effinayright:
aside to Balfegor: do you wear your mask when you go "out" ...outside into the fresh air? To drive your car?
To the shops or the office. I don't drive so it's Uber (mask) or metro (mask). If I'm going to a garden or a park, I'll take it off, but if it's the ten minute walk or so between my building and the grocery store or my office and the metro station or whatever, I leave it on rather than deal with the hassle of taking it on and off in between. I've been wearing masks for years (Japan and Korea), so other than at the height of summer I don't find it uncomfortable at all.
As someone fully vaccinated, I'm exempt from some mask mandates (worthless though they are, given that scarves and ineffective cloth masks satisfy them). But as a diabetic, eh, my immune system is weaker thsn the norm and my risk profile is comparatively high, so I wear a mask for the marginal incremental protection.
With the left, no matter the question, more government power is always the answer.
Note that he doesn’t bother with such minutiae as whether mandates are necessary or even helpful. Does he wrestle with whether mandates are altruistic? Or is all if that simply assumed on his way to justifying ever more governmental power over individual people’s lives?
Alejandro Mayorkas, tested positive for Covid-19 (...) Double jabbed and infected. Me? Never jabbed, never infected.
Yet.
even with the same infection fatality rate as a "bad flu" it will still kill a lot more people
No. IFR measures how many die given X number of infections. Same means “same” not more.
because it's more infectious and the population is immunologically naive
Gobbledegook. Nothing in this statement is based in epidemiology. Once all the asymptomatic cases and false positives are corrected the IFR for C-19 is almost exactly what a bad flu year would yield with two caveats: children (<12-y-o) have at least double IFR from a “normal” flu season, and obesity is not usually an additional risk factor/ comorbidity for seasonal flu. These facts have been widely available for a year and a half now, although ignored and obscured by the hyper political words and deeds of Fauci Biden et al.
Imagine all of the wonderful things we can force people to do in the name of altruism.
"Sometimes Altruism Needs to Be Enforced"
and Howard said...
Lobsters are naturally altruistic at least according to Jordan Peterson
This is how stupid you have to be to support Joe Biden.
The Atlantic was not always as bad as it has been lately.
We do not need to see these actions in a negative or even authoritarian light.
Actually, yes we do because yes they are.
They are not simply the workings of our political system.
Actually, they are the workings of a senile old man believing stupid things for stupid reasons and throwing a massive hissy fit.
@Althouse, can I ask why you posted this? If you were hoping to persuade your readers “to do the right thing,” then (1) you don’t understand your readers very well, (2) you don’t understand the American people very well, and (3) you still have not made a honest effort to understand the downside risks of these vaccines.
tim in vermont said...
The difference is that even with the same infection fatality rate as a "bad flu" it will still kill a lot more people because it's more infectious and the population is immunologically naive.
I am sorry that you need the ability to reason quantitatively to understand the above.
Here Tim, I'll use small words, just for you:
People who've received the "Covid 19 vaccine" can still:
1: Give Covid to others, even when they have no symptoms
2: Be sick with Covid themselves
3: Be hospitalized became of Covid infection
4: Die from Covid infection
This shot is not a "vaccine" in any meaningful sense of the word.
Yes, Covid 19 is more infectious than a normal flu. So what?
Far more lives have been destroyed by the lockdowns and other idiotic coined "responses" than have been killed by Covid, or would have been killed by Covid if the gov't had done nothing.
The amount of weight people have gained because of the Covid lockdowns has not only generated far more bad health consequences than Covid ever will, but it's also made people more vulernable to Covid's bad effects.
If you want to hide in your home, do so
If you want to take a shitty shot, do so
If you want to play health performance theater and wear a worthless mask, do so
But leave the rest of us alone
"Sometimes altruism needs to be enforced" reminds me of that poster or t-shirt with a stylized human figure pointing a gun at the head of another stylized human being, with the slogan "Statism--ideas so good they have to be mandatory!"
"The amount of weight people have gained because of the Covid lockdowns has not only generated far more bad health consequences than Covid ever will, but it's also made people more vulernable to Covid's bad effects."
I have a friend who's having surgery for colon cancer as I type this. His screening six years ago was clear, the one scheduled for a year and a half ago got pushed back to August (2021, not 2020).
Because covid.
A point that hasn't been mentioned, one that Nicholas Christakis probably couldn't even allow in his head, is that we have no fundamental instincts for goodness and cooperation. Altruism is not hard-wired into our make-up as human beings. We were, and still are, animals. Courtesy, sharing, cooperation, everything that separates us from the other animal, has to be taught to each human child. And since not every parent is up to that task, the law is necessary. It is the one thing that keeps us from being at each other's throats.
My evidence is all the young people who were never taught the basics of civilization and have remained animals. The young people who rush into stores and loot them, ironically as a team. The ones who destroy what they can when a police officer does something wrong (or not) and the footage hits Twitter. And the ones who go from fights at recess to murdering in a few short years. They were never taught how to be human beings. And now the law doesn't protect us from them.
Christakis is naive as well as wrong. He has no idea his words are tools for others. He won't even get a thank you for helping them seize control. He'll probably get a cell, because people will remember the Halloween costumes, and despite the words he gave them, he'll need to be cancelled. Then he'll learn the real animal instincts human beings have.
Final point: "Altruistic behavior" is behavior that doesn't do you any good, while doing other people good.
So this nimrod is saying that none of masking, social distancing, and getting the Covid shots actually do you any good.
So nice that we can agree on something
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