१५ सप्टेंबर, २०२१

"No one was better at stringing out a joke between its setup and its punch line. The purest instance of the skill might be his famous 'moth' routine..."

"... in which he took a lame stock joke ('A moth goes into a podiatrist’s office . . .') and, by delivery alone, built a three-minute meta-gag on top of it, working his audience all the way. We weren’t far into our interview when I realized I had made the rookie mistake of taking Macdonald’s deadbeat persona as his real world view. It was and wasn’t. Early on, he charmed me by noting, in an offhand way, that he’d needed glasses all his life but, after losing his first childhood pairs, stopped bothering. ('I guess if I put on glasses now everything would be high-def,' he said—the description of normal human vision as a decadent TV feature being the Macdonaldian turn.) But I was caught off guard by how sensitive he was to creative work generally: he was a serious and studious reader, especially of the Russians, keen to get into the weeds with me about Tolstoy....."

Here's the moth thing (and notice the Tolstoy influence):


FROM THE COMMENTS: Sean Gleeson said:
The bit about "Macdonald’s deadbeat persona" feels like an error to me. Did he really pose as a man who refused to pay his debts? Does "deadbeat" have some other meaning? Did he mean to write "deadpan"?

He couldn't write "deadpan," because he'd just used the word 3 sentences ago — "his zonked-seeming deadpan," in a paragraph I didn't quote. I'm dismayed when The New Yorker gets any language usage wrong. I subscribe in part because for half a century I have looked to it as an exemplar of high-quality writing. 

And there's this aspirational stretching toward words that the reader might not even know yet. For example, the very next sentence after what I quoted is: "And he gave off lambent joy about his art." That's asking us to trust them and to get better at language and not to call bullshit. There's a part of me that wants to admire the writer's way with words and a part of me that's about to blurt — to paraphrase George W. BushWhat the fuck are you talking about, lambent?

If The New Yorker is going to make gaffes like "deadbeat," I'm going to have a lot more trouble going along with things like "lambent."

"Lambent," from the Latin word for "licking," evokes a licking flame. It's a word you can use instead of "radiant"... if you want to seem fancy or you'd like to make less learned readers feel as though they don't belong here. 

In context, I'd say Heller wanted to sound effusive praising Macdonald — to give him a tongue bath. But if you want me to give a sympathetic reading to your pretentious usages, don't make mistakes like "deadbeat."

ADDED: Nathan Heller responded in email that he's given me permission to publish:

Dear Ann, 
I am an intermittent reader and a big admirer of Althouse, and am always thrilled to see something I've written mentioned there. I'm also a huge fan of pedantic posts about language usage, so I read your criticism of the way "deadbeat" and "lambent" were used in a recent New Yorker remembrance of Norm Macdonald with an enjoyment verging on glee. Imagine my surprise to find that I was the author of the offending text. I was about to write myself a sternly worded note; then I looked in the dictionary. 
Merriam-Webster's first definition of a deadbeat is a "loafer." This is also, in slightly different terms, the first definition in the New Oxford American and the second definition in the American Heritage. The Oxford English Dictionary—which has the disadvantage of being British but the advantage of being pretty comprehensive—defines "deadbeat" as "a worthless idler who sponges on his friends; a sponger, loafer; also (originally Australian), a man down on his luck." 
Now, whether Norm Macdonald's comic persona was that of a loafer; a sponger and a loafer; a sponger, a loafer, and a worthless idler; or simply a man down on his luck is a matter I'll gladly turn over to the authorities. (On the sponging charge, I might note that Macdonald has insisted, at the mic, that he goes to parties solely for the cocktail sandwiches.) What seemed clear to me when I wrote that sentence, however, is the same thing clear to me now, which is that "deadbeat" is an exact term for the family of qualities in question. It is true that many people know, or think they know, the meaning of "deadbeat" from the phrase "deadbeat dad." But the dictionaries are clear that debt-related concerns are a narrow sub-case, not the meaning of the word. The O.E.D. gives "deadbeat dad" an entry of its own. 
After identifying the "gaffe" of "deadbeat," you go after my use of "lambent." You fret that this term reflects "aspirational stretching toward words that the reader might not even know yet." (To say that in a less high-flown way: the reader might—of all things—have to look it up.) "Lambent," as you note, comes from the Latin for licking, but dictionaries make clear that it's most often associated with certain qualities of light. Here's Merriam-Webster: "1) playing lightly on or over a surface: flickering; 2) softly bright or radiant; 3) marked by lightness or brilliance especially of expression." Here's the O.E.D.: "1a) Of a flame (fire, light): Playing lightly upon or gliding over a surface without burning it, like a ‘tongue of fire’; shining with a soft clear light and without fierce heat. . . . 1c) By extension, of eyes, the sky, etc.: Emitting, or suffused with, a soft clear light; softly radiant. . . . 1d) Figurative: Of wit, style, etc.: Playing lightly and brilliantly over its subjects; gracefully sportive. . . ." 
I used it in the phrase "lambent joy." Joy is a bright thing normally, but I was trying to describe the joy of Norm Macdonald. As anyone with any exposure to Norm Macdonald knows, his joy was not of the blazing, luminous variety. (He was, in fact, a comic with a small repertoire of suicide-related jokes.) If you had to describe the quality of joy in Norm Macdonald, you might call it dim but pure, playful, gentle, flickering in and out of view. I didn't call it "lambent" because the word seemed passable. I called it "lambent" because the word is precise. 
I, too, am dismayed when The New Yorker gets any language usage wrong. Fortunately, there are a lot of us—writers, editors, and copy editors—living our days on high alert to make sure it happens as rarely as possible. In any case, thanks very much for reading, and, as ever, for your post. 
Nathan 
-- 
NATHAN HELLER 
Staff writer 
The New Yorker Magazine

३६ टिप्पण्या:

Sydney म्हणाले...

Also, a little bit of Charles Grodon

Kai Akker म्हणाले...

---by Nathan Heller (The New Yorker).

Black? Female? I think not.

LGBTQ. Maaaay beee.

U in trouble, NYer subscriber. Thirty years in The Castle for you. Then you might attain The Trial. Hoo.

Temujin म्हणाले...

I love to listen to Sirius radio's comedy channels when driving. There are a handful of comedians that can regularly have me laughing hysterically when stopped at a red light. Invariably the person next to me looks over and sees me, then starts smiling at my laughing. Norm MacDonald was one of those I loved hearing. He always seemed bumbling, forgetting his way in his routine, or just wandering aimlessly through a bit, but...everything was perfectly worked out, practiced, and perfect.

He will be missed by me and the random people next to me at red lights who got to smile at a lunatic laughing by himself in a car.

ndspinelli म्हणाले...

Norm was loved by fellow comedians. He was virtually alone in showing empathy for Louis CK and Roseanne Barr. She gave Norm his first break as a writer and he never forgot that. He was told by Don Ohlmeyer, a friend of OJ and NBC prez, the ease up on the OJ jokes. So..Norm did more OJ jokes and made them more biting. He was fired, not by Lorne Michaels, but by Ohlmeyer. Norm was fearless.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

"It's mean streets if you're a wiener dog in a cardigan."
-Norm McDonald

rhhardin म्हणाले...

Moths aren't attracted to light. They hold light at a constant bearing abeam, thinking it's the moon and it's letting them hold a straight course to distant meadows. If the abeam is in fact slightly ahead of abeam, and it's a light and not the moon, they'll spiral into the light, which is what you see. They wouldn't spiral into the moon but merely alter the direction of their straight course a degree or two.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

The master of the shaggy dog story. I watched his first U.S. TV appearance years ago and knew he would be something special.

He would hammer subjects for years on end (OJ Simpson was a killer, the Clintons were killers) even if it cost him his job (SNL).

He didn't care...he played the long game.

There are a lot of clips of him discussing religion...he was a strong believer and a self-described Christian.

While alive, he was the funniest man on earth, and most comics would tell you the same thing.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

The dog, who the fairy godfather taught to talk in Barnaby and O'Malley, was always telling huge continued shaggy dog stories in oversized talk balloons while the other characters remarked on the problem of getting the dog to shut up.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

Look up Crockett Johnson's Barnaby and O'Malley, maybe some reissued books, for the cartoon series of the 40s that's droll and funnier than anything that has come later.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

"I'd hit her with a brick," the man said who, when they asked him whether he'd hit a woman with a baby, said no.

New genre, worst telling of an old joke, in honor of people who can't tell jokes.

Lead with the punchline, is a good start.

charis म्हणाले...

The moth joke is great. I'd never heard it. I kept thinking the moth was going to end up being a character in a Tolstoy story or something. O'Brien must have known the punch line, but he had to wait through the meandering lead up to it.

Geoff M म्हणाले...

The guy was quick on his feet too. His Conan appearance with Courtney Thorn Smith was amazing. Carrot Top's movie had no chance against that.

rcocean म्हणाले...

Poor Norm. Imagine just wanting to tell jokes, and you have to talk to Nathan Heller. Well, that's show biz. Frankly, I think his "Andy Richter" story or his "Harold Delany" story are much funnier. But it does goes to the heart of Norm's comedy, the delivery was almost as funny as the Joke itself.

Conan was a great straight man for Norm, and he knew how to play off him - unlike Letterman.

Sean Gleeson म्हणाले...

The bit about "Macdonald’s deadbeat persona" feels like an error to me. Did he really pose as a man who refused to pay his debts? Does "deadbeat" have some other meaning? Did he mean to write deadpan?

Tim म्हणाले...

That is the second best Shaggy Dog story I have ever heard. If falls only to Isaac Asimov's Shah Gui D.

gilbar म्हणाले...

i'd Never heard that Moth joke before; I laughed so hard, i almost joined Norm in the afterlife.
They don't make them like That, anymore. GOD Bless you Norm

gilbar म्हणाले...

i have to admit, i Never saw the light coming

daskol म्हणाले...

My favorite comedian. His book is a fun read, too, very.

Lem Vibe Bandit म्हणाले...

I just finished Norm binging on YouTube.

I’m going to miss him.

rcocean म्हणाले...

Yeah "Deadbeat" doesn't make any sense. Must be "deadpan" or "downbeat". but its the New Yorker so I doubt anyone proof read it.

Narr म्हणाले...

OK, I've watched that one, and the two pig jokes. The pig jokes are just variants of jokes I heard in college or earlier in the '70s, and were probably old then.

"Moth" had a good twist, but I don't think his delivery is all that good to be frank. Conan's chortle sounds forced too.

I'll check out his OJ stuff now, though.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

Do yourself a favor...get on YouTube and get lost in Norm clips...it's worth it to slog through the ads.

Make sure nobody is sleeping because you will wake them up with all the laughing : )

Another source of his live interviews is here...

This is the first show (ignore the begging or don't), but below the video window you can explore other comedians.

William म्हणाले...

I liked the way he told a shaggy dog story like he was recounting the plot of a Bergman movie. He pulled up those dark details of the moth's existential despair with such ease and credibility. I don't know why all that literacy in the service of a lame joke made the joke funny, but it did. Like the aquarium worker, his jokes always tried to serve a useful porpoise. ....He didn't use politics in his comedy. That's as much as you can hope for nowadays.....He seemed like a good guy.

rightguy म्हणाले...

This is weird as I have been recently YouTubing Norm a lot. There is a five part series of his appearances on Letterman which are funny as hell. Strongly recommended. He was a gifted comic who was highly intelligent with surprising depth & humility, yet he did a dumb guy thing for laughs.

RIP, Norm Macdonald. A comedian's comedian.

rehajm म्हणाले...

His Ezra joke is short but the pain from laughing is long…

Jaq म्हणाले...

The remark he made in retort to a comic who claimed that the Universe doesn't care about us, "I think there is a logical flaw there, I am part of the Universe, and I care about you," well something like that, anyway, that retort should live forever.

Curious George म्हणाले...

His best SNL Weekend Update stuff was about Hillary"

Mike (MJB Wolf) म्हणाले...

If it weren’t for pretension the New Yorker would have no tension at all. (A very subtle writer’s quip.)

charis म्हणाले...

Last year I listened to a set of lectures on Theories of Knowledge by a philosopher named Joseph Shieber. (In the Great Courses) At the end, as an example of a reliable source of facts and information, he highlighted The New Yorker magazine. His endorsement and yours make me curious about subscribing to it.

Roger Sweeny म्हणाले...

Jonathan Edwards!

AMDG म्हणाले...

The moth joke -an example of the journey being greater than the destination.

NorthOfTheOneOhOne म्हणाले...

rcocean said...

Yeah "Deadbeat" doesn't make any sense. Must be "deadpan" or "downbeat". but its the New Yorker so I doubt anyone proof read it.

More like a spell-check screw up and lack of proof reading.

Aggie म्हणाले...

More than any other comedian, Norm MacDonald reminded me a lot of Tommy Smothers. He had that same glinting crazy side-eye look when he was up to mischief, the same way of making you think he was slow-witted or naive in a way, when he was setting up a flash of comedic brilliance. Some people's true character is always out in front, and he was one of those.

My two favorite Norm clips have to be the one in Jerry Seinfeld's car,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljaP2etvDc4

... and the Conan show appearance with Courtney Thorne-Smith.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqhrPa_7LVA

Both Conan and Thorne-Smith were rendered helpless, and I finally got to see Seinfeld really laughing.

Bilwick म्हणाले...

If nothing else, Norm opened my eyes to the evil that was Albert Fish
That guy was a real jerk.

Jeff Brokaw म्हणाले...

I’ve really enjoyed all the Norm clips these last few days and appreciating all over again how much I liked him ... but I still cannot believe he’s gone.

He never even looked “older” and I never heard about his illness and then BOOM, gone. And we were born in the same year. More than a little unsettling for me personally.

Tina Trent म्हणाले...

Norm Macdonald could make Holocaust denial jokes funny, and he lost his job for refusing to stop noticing the national shame that was a racist jury releasing a black murderer because one of his victims was a white woman.

And did anyone from SNL at the time defend him? Al Franken? Janine Garafalo? Julia Louise Dreyfuss? Adam Sandler? Will Ferrell? Lorne Michaels? Others did.

One has to assume they all thought OJ getting off for killing a white woman and a white man was a good thing. What a bunch of cowards.

Maybe this snarky New Yorker writer could write about that. Because I’m not getting the point of his story, except that it reminds me of that joke about The New Yorker.