"Every lead pipe in the country would be replaced. All Americans would have access to high-speed Internet broadband by the end of the decade. As many as 2 million homes and housing units would be built, retrofitted or renovated. Biden released the spending plan with a slew of tax hikes on businesses that is likely to be the most contentious part of his proposal. The White House says the proposal would pay for itself over 15 years because many of the tax increases would remain even as the spending proposals only last for eight years.... On the tax side, Biden’s plan includes raising the corporate tax rate from 21 percent to 28 percent; increasing the global minimum tax paid from about 13 percent to 21 percent; ending federal tax breaks for fossil fuel companies; and ramping up tax enforcement against corporations, among other measures."
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२४२ टिप्पण्या:
242 पैकी 1 – 200 नवीन› नवीनतम»Not the Onion.
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ah3ra6/you_dont_see_this_every_day_diesel/
And the higher taxes will have no effect what so ever on prices and wages. Nor will it cause inflation. The laws of economics have been repealed. (/sarc)
“Well, we’re living here in Bidentown...”
Trillions will be wasted and the projects will fail, of course. This is another Great Society scam.
Redistributive change. The Green Blight: intermittent/renewable energy. An emphasis on virtual life.
Wouldn't be surprised one bit if the Democrats tried to jam this through just to force the Senate GOP to use the filibuster. Really amazing how the GOP fumbled things in Georgia.
@Althouse, if you believe any of that malarkey then the word “gullible” doesn’t begin to cover it. Just like the “high speed rail from nowhere to nowhere” out in California, the money will be frittered away on “studies” and “planning” (creating plans that they know will never be implemented!), the budget will grow and grow, the prospective completion date will drift further and further into the distant future, and in the end only a tiny fraction of the lofty goals will actually be implemented. However, people well-connected to the Democrat Party will get filthy rich for doing not much work.
They lost me right out of the box with "Every lead pipe in the country would be replaced.”
Insanely expensive and unnecessary.
I would rather major give the speech
Really amazing how the GOP fumbled things in Georgia.
I fully believe that McConnell chose to shoot the GOP in the dick in the hope that a loss would discredit Trump. Instead it only pissed off the base even more.
This plan is so scary that the stock market is up only a little bit today.
Mattman26 said...
“Insanely expensive and unnecessary.”
A lead-pipe cinch is a sure thing, a certainty. Lead-pipe cinch may also refer to something that is easy to accomplish. The origins of the term lead-pipe cinch are in great dispute, with many apocryphal stories attached to the term.
However, people well-connected to the Democrat Party will get filthy rich for doing not much work.
Just like Obama's stimulus bill.
"Every lead pipe in the country would be replaced. All Americans would have access to high-speed Internet broadband by the end of the decade. As many as 2 million homes and housing units would be built, retrofitted or renovated. Every
rainbow would end in your backyard, every time.
This plan is so scary that the stock market is up only a little bit today.
Redistributive, socially inoculated, renewable greenbacks. What's not to love.
In California when they threaten rolling blackouts they can go pound sand. I’m not going to sit at home in 100 degree heat while some jackass is charging his car. The last two day power outage due to wind I made it just fine. I can do it again (even in the heat). So let’s share the pain. You charge your car, I’ll run my air conditioner, and we can enjoy the power outage together.
Turns out that the Georgia GOP actively conspired to tank the election. The "Republican" secretary of state tried to frame Trump by lying about the phone calls, and trashing the actual recordings... which when found clearly revealed the entire "Find me more votes" claim was utterly false, a malicious lie, and ini so doing was an attempt to sway the election that likely worked.
But this story is just Democrats hating people and raising taxes forever.
Tax and spend. Tax and spend. Not spend on anything useful, of course.
Since Democrats all love higher taxes, why don't we just raise taxes on Democrats? A cool 50% federal tax, plus all the state and local taxes on top. Cut all the taxes for those who don't want them, like Republicans.
I want to see Democrats forced to pay over 100% income taxes when it's all said and done.
Crony Capitalism used by neo-Marxists, aka Democrat Party. Fuck these swine.
When will the Dems learn that corporations do not pay taxes, their customers do? Prices are going up in every taxed business unless the market conditions for that particular industry necessitate the business go tits up. Stagflation is inevitable.
I never thought Biden could possibly do the amount of damage he is doing in such a short time.
Left Bank of the Charles said..."This plan is so scary that the stock market is up only a little bit today."
Crony capitalists approve of crony capital? Who knew?!?
"...and we're living here in Bidentown.
NSFW
The government is now going to charge your electric car. What could possibly go wrong?
This post topic is very unlike Althouse. What's got into you Professor?
"Every lead pipe in the country would be replaced. All Americans would have access to high-speed Internet broadband by the end of the decade. As many as 2 million homes and housing units would be built, retrofitted or renovated."
Not much lead pipe left, Elon is taking care of the broadband, and lack of housing depends on local zoning laws. Sounds like a bunch of nothing. Let me know when Biden proposes to do something besides give away money to Democrat cronies.
Vance said...Turns out that the Georgia GOP actively conspired to tank the election.
They had help. How many people on the right encouraged Republicans to stay home to "punish the GOP for not supporting Trump"? Even if only 1% or 2% of Georgia Republican voters listened, that's enough. And it is what happened--the Republicans lost the runoff after winning a plurality of the general election because Republican turnout fell off more than Democratic turnout.
Where is our cure for cancer, Joe????
You were put in charge of that and promised it too.
"I never thought Biden could possibly do the amount of damage he is doing in such a short time."
It's not Biden. The fucker is a potted plant.
"The plan, set to be introduced by Biden in Pittsburgh on Wednesday, says it will enable drivers across the country to find electric charging stations for their vehicles on the road."
Do they come with Covid safe motels, where you can hang out, waiting for the full charge?
Every dollar taken out of the private economy through taxes is a dollar that is not paid to an employee in wages.
And it is not like tax money is needed any more in order for government to spend money. The imposition of additional taxes accomplishes nothing except to undermine the economy.
Tesla already tells drivers where the charging stations are, and will not only provide a route, but drive you to them. (OK, not autonomous yet, but the progress on such a task is amazing)
There are apps that do the same thing for non-Tesla electric car owners.
Biden is apparently promising to create something that already exists.
tim maguire said...
Vance said...Turns out that the Georgia GOP actively conspired to tank the election.
They had help.
Yes. Their biggest "help" was from Mitch McConnell and the "Republican" Senate.
What kind of idiots pass a bloated "Covid relief" bill a week before the election, that is massively full of Democrat priorities and pork for big donors, while having f*ck all for ordinary Americans?
The kind who WANT GOP voters to stay at home.
Well, they got what they wanted. No, Lin Wood didn't do this. Mitch McConnell did
Static scoring is a lie.
Right- there's plenty if websites to tell you where there are charging stations. sounds like government cronies made out well building out that Obamacare website so let's do it again. Plus- everyone loved it!!!
Blogger Vance said...
Turns out that the Georgia GOP actively conspired to tank the election. The "Republican" secretary of state tried to frame Trump by lying about the phone calls, and trashing the actual recordings... which when found clearly revealed the entire "Find me more votes" claim was utterly false, a malicious lie, and ini so doing was an attempt to sway the election that likely worked.
I'm sure he had excellent reasons. Spendable reasons. That's what counts to 95% of politicians.
Codevilla has a good column about it.
When you raise the tax on an activity you get less of it. People respond to incentives.
How many times has a national Dem announced they will bring Broadband to every nook and cranny if we spend xxx billions of dollars? Yet after they spend it, they use the same soundbite over and over and over. I think our Dem leaders have given us universal broadband several times over?
the Republicans lost the runoff after winning a plurality of the general election because Republican turnout fell off more than Democratic turnout
Guys, I don't want to get too far out over my skis but I'm beginning to suspect sending Kraken Girl down to Georgia might have been a tactical if not strategic error.
Mr Wibble said...
I fully believe that McConnell chose to shoot the GOP in the dick in the hope that a loss would discredit Trump.
I think he did it because he didn't want to be GOP Senate Majority leader with a "majority" of 2, Biden appointing lunatics, and weasels like Romney and Murkowski there to approve them anyway.
He decided it would be less stressful, and equally personally profitable, to be Senate Minority Leader.
Nothing else explains the Senate passing that "Covid" bill
It's true! It's true! The crown has made it clear
The climate must be perfect all the year
A law was made a distant moon ago here:
July and August cannot be too hot
And there's a legal limit to the snow here
In Camelot
The winter is forbidden till December
And exits March the second on the dot
By order, summer lingers through September
In Camelot
Camelot! Camelot!
I know it sounds a bit bizarre
But in Camelot, Camelot
That's how conditions are
The rain may never fall till after sundown
By eight, the morning fog must disappear
In short, there's simply not
A more congenial spot
For happily-ever-aftering
Than here in Camelot
Camelot! Camelot!
I know it gives a person pause
But in Camelot, Camelot
Those are the legal laws
The snow may never slush upon the hillside
By nine p.m. the moonlight must appear
In short, there's simply not
A more congenial spot
For happily-ever-aftering
Than here in Camelot
Camelot (Frederick Loewe)
If you wanted the economy to collapse I don't know how you could do a better job of it.
...and on corporate taxes we went through this during the Obama administration just a few short years ago. How short the memories.
Corporate taxes aren't free money for government. The burden falls on customers in the form of higher prices, on employees and potential employees in the form of lower salaries and benefits and fewer available jobs, and to shareholders in the form of lower profits and share prices, which harms not just fat cats but anyone with a 401k, pension funds, and government obligated pension funds which hurt all taxpayers...
...and since we're going back to one of the highest corporate tax rates in the developed world we'll roll out the double irishes, inversions and takeunders, ending the taxable entities and the taxable fat cat c suite compensation out of reach...
Electric vehicles could succeed, provided:
1. Access to charging stations as widespread as gas pumps
2. Elapsed time to fully charge vehicle is as fast as gas pumps
3. Cost is + or - per gallon prices
4. Battery 'mining' & disposal is cleaner than fossil fuel production
4. The electrical power is provided by NextGen nuclear plants
To paraphrase the line from True Grit---"I'd say that's bold talk for a senile old man with half a working brain and narrow majorities in Congress".
Biden's dog Major has a better grasp er-"bite" on the situation.
They'll pay all those illegals a "Living California Wage". Doc Mike hit it on the nose COST OVER RUNS. But it will be done in time for the Chinese to take over. Americans will already be living at Chinese standards by then.
Where's President-Emeritus Biden going to get all the plumbers, carpenters, electricians, dry wallers, etc. to do his projects, let alone all the materials required? From all the private sector projects that won't be built because he's priced all those things out of reach.
No private sector projects, no tax money from those projects. His $10T budget is really $20T when the tax money doesn't materialize. That's assuming any of the money actually makes it to the projects and isn't gobbled up by consultants, permits, environmental group payoffs and local graft.
Electric vehicles could succeed, provided:
6. They cost less than the $37,000 the least expensive Tesla will set you back.
No defense spending whatsoever. Lets all sing along with XI - https://youtu.be/SQD1Jsj1d3w
Who needs charging stations? With the New New Green Newer Deal, I have been assured new cars will run on unicorn farts and rainbow beams.
" PM said...
Electric vehicles could succeed, provided:
1. Access to charging stations as widespread as gas pumps
2. Elapsed time to fully charge vehicle is as fast as gas pumps
3. Cost is + or - per gallon prices
4. Battery 'mining' & disposal is cleaner than fossil fuel production
4. The electrical power is provided by NextGen nuclear plants"
I sell EV Chargers. This is so dumb. Electrical vehicles will succeed. The biggest reason is:
Operating costs are so much less than ICE. "Fuel" costs are much less, and EV have 20 moving parts versus 2000 on ICE. #1 and 2 above will never happen, and don't have to.
Dems see taxation through a false lens. It deadens the economy.
He decided it would be less stressful, and equally personally profitable, to be Senate Minority Leader.
I agree. It is more fun to be the minority Leader when there is a slim majority by the other party. Payoffs are better and less work.
Also, your children will have fewer cavities and better grades.
It's amazing what can be accomplished when one sets aside the practical issue of paying for these fantasies.
“On the tax side, Biden’s plan includes raising the corporate tax rate from 21 percent to 28 percent; increasing the global minimum tax paid from about 13 percent to 21 percent; ending federal tax breaks for fossil fuel companies; and ramping up tax enforcement against corporations, among other measures."WaPo reports.”
Actually, that probably means means back to the top marginal rate of 33%, since the way it worked was that, contrary to individual rates, beyond a certain point the corporate rate for ALL of your taxable income was 28%. The transition between the 21% and 28% rate utilized the 5% surtax to make that happen. I know this because we were in the 33% marginal bracket for some years.
The federal tax breaks for fossil fuels companies are mostly their Depletion allowance. Depletion works like Depreciation, but is quantity based, instead of being time based. If you drill and complete a well that is expected to produce 100k barrels, and it produces 20k barrels the first year, you can deduct 20% of the cost of drilling the well that year. 30k barrels the next year results in a 30% tax deduction. The key here is to realize that the cost of drilling and completing a well is a sunk cost. You have spent money to make money. It’s just natural to be able to deduct the cost of making money from the money made. Under the current system, you get to ultimately deduct essentially all of the expenses you incurred to make the money - the question is just when. If the Democrats eliminate Depletion, then how do people in the fossil fuel extraction industry recoup their costs of drilling, and offset them against the revenues from selling the fossil fuels? Does this mean that they would get to expense them the first year? I seriously doubt if that is the plan by the Dems. The only alternative would seem to be to allow them to deduct the costs of drilling and completing a well when the well is filled with concrete at the end of its economic life, which maybe decades from now. You want to kill the fossil fuels industry? This is the way to do it.
I have been saying for some time now that the Democrats are desperately trying to crash our economy. Taking money out of corporations, and flushing it down the toilet with these nonsensical “infrastructure” “investments” is going to just accelerate this. Remember, the government doesn’t create wealth - they just rearrange who has it, but the friction of their “management”, moving money from profitable to unprofitable endeavors, inevitably, and probably necessarily, reduces GDP. Going into a recession, we want to increase spending on plant and equipment, generating employment, instead of making the Pelosis, the Finesteins, etc, hundreds of millions of dollars more by skimming the dollars off the top, into their pockets. You want a deep recession? You want to really crash the economy? This is how to do it. Keep in mind that our former 28%/33% corporate tax rates were some of the steepest in the world. Money was fleeing businesses in our country as a result, with almost anywhere else in the world being more profitable.
You really have two choices: Idiotic? Or Treasonous (if they know that it is idiotic)?
"tcrosse said...
Electric vehicles could succeed, provided:
6. They cost less than the $37,000 the least expensive Tesla will set you back."
When did you last buy a car? EV cars are inevitable. That's why every major car manufacturer is coming out with one...or more than one.
“ I sell EV Chargers. This is so dumb. Electrical vehicles will succeed. The biggest reason is:
“Operating costs are so much less than ICE. "Fuel" costs are much less, and EV have 20 moving parts versus 2000 on ICE. #1 and 2 above will never happen, and don't have to.”
You essentially have a choice here. Give up EVs, or give up “renewable” electricity. We are nowhere close to solving both problems at the same time. You probably need a lot of new nuclear capacity to make EVs work.
>>I sell EV Chargers.
Don't ask the barber if you need a haircut.
A little reading material for Ann.
And the size of the battery means that they require huge quantities of materials in their manufacture. If we replace all of the UK vehicle fleet with EVs, and assuming they use the most resource-frugal next-generation batteries, we would need the following materials:
• 207,900 tonnes of cobalt – just under twice the annual global production;
• 264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate – three quarters of the world’s production;
• at least 7,200 tonnes of neodymium and dysprosium –nearly the entire world production of neodymium;
• 2,362,500 tonnes of copper – more than half the world’s production in 2018.
And this is just for the UK.
Some idea of the scale we are talking about.
6. They cost less than the $37,000 the least expensive Tesla will set you back.
A) That's on the way.
B) That price is competitive to similar cars in the same class.
As many as 2 million homes and housing units would be built, retrofitted or renovated.
WOW! AS MANY AS 2 million homes (including "housing units") would be built
or "retrofitted"
or "renovated"
for the low low, low low, price of 2 TRILLION Dollars!!
That's ONLY A MILLION F*CKING DOLLARS, for EACH home (including "housing units") that would be built
or "retrofitted"
or "renovated"
I'm Assuming, that this means; "new storm windows", for a few apartments
for the low low, low low, price of 2 TRILLION Dollars!!
EV vehicles are not inevitable. EV vehicles are "needed" to avert the coming "climate crisis." Just ask AOC. Ask her what the crisis will be. She can't tell you because she's the village idiot. There will be no climate crisis, the Earth will not overheat. It's been warmer in the past than it is now.
There is no correlation between temperature and CO2 concentration. Earth's temperature varied over several degrees over the last 3,000 years with no change in CO2. These temperatures were greater than what the climate hoaxers predict.
What we are facing in the future, 2030-2050, are cooler temperatures because the sun going into a sunspot minimum phase. Just like happened during the little ice age and the Maunder minimum.
They lost me right out of the box with "Every lead pipe in the country would be replaced.”
>>
Some idiot who has never plumbed or known a plumber in his life thought of that.
Also it takes some kind of stupid to believe that there is even a knowledge of where every lead pipe is. I guarantee you that just finding all the lead pipe in the country would be an impossible undertaking.
The Chinese are going big on electric vehicles. One of their primary companies is called Geely. Amazon is buying a ton of EVs from them for their delivery vans.
I have nothing against EVs. However, the idea of replacing the combustion engine is stupid. We need diverse methods of travel which protects us should disaster strike one method.
What did we learn when the Dutch Elm disease hit Chicago?
You essentially have a choice here. Give up EVs, or give up “renewable” electricity. We are nowhere close to solving both problems at the same time. You probably need a lot of new nuclear capacity to make EVs work.
The argument against this argument is there is already an extraordinary amount of excess generating capacity- at night, which is when the majority of vehicle recharging takes place. Grid storage and homeowner level storage is creeping along with the slow introduction of EVs into the fleet. By the time we see a preference cascade to EVs (if we see it) the grid will be able to handle it. Plus with storage increasing, we may even get to lose some generating capacity and see a reduced cost for electricity, since we won't need expensive 'peak period' generating plants that run as little as a few hours a year.
"many of the tax increases would remain even as the spending proposals only last for eight years"
Prog-perfect.
But pray tell, Modern Monetary Theorists, why do we need the taxes at all? Just for the sheer pleasure of coercing the populace and business?
But pray tell, Modern Monetary Theorists, why do we need the taxes at all? Just for the sheer pleasure of coercing the populace and business?
'Inequality' and your answer, so I've been lectured...
Your Federal Government: millions of workers doing poorly and at great expense of that which need not be done at all.
This is one step up from paying people to dig holes and then to fill them in, but it is one step down from flying over Dim-controlled cities and pushing bales of $100 bills into the air.
I think I’d work on hardening our electricity transmission and delivery grid. It would save a lot of trouble later...in case of an EMP attack or a random solar storm, for example.
Grid storage and homeowner level storage is creeping along with the slow introduction of EVs into the fleet.
Hasn't worked for California. There are already lots of charging stations out there, empty most of the time. It would be better to let demand drive development rather than some five year government plan.
How in the world did we ever get gas stations built across the country without a massive "infrastructure" program from the federal government? Sheesh. In reality, as electric cars become more plentiful, workplaces, gas stations, restaurants, and shopping malls (among others) will start installing more charging stations. The installation costs are massively cheaper than the costs of installing and filling massive underground gasoline tanks. It won't cost a lot of money, 3rd party companies will cut deals with the owners of the parking lots, and everything will proceed far faster than some government program which will undoubtedly build stand-alone buildings to provide full services for all. Maybe they can mix it with the proposal for the USPS to get into the low-income banking business. Every new federal charging station on the corner can have a government-run bank in it.
But will the seas recede? We were promised.
I will just echo Mike of Snowqualmie. I could not put it better.
The question now is whether the people pushing this really believe it or is it just another "I'll hold your money and you hold mine"? I tend to believe the scam theory as some of these people are very smart, unlike the dopes that post lefty nonsense here.
What Amadeus 48 said.
Pay for itself.
How many times have we heard these promises?
I see that some have already made the point.
Nobody knows where all the lead supply lines for water are. And no one knows where all the lead drain lines are either, but they're not really a problem.
I worked at a big box. Had a customer call one day "What do you have to repair a lead pipe?" I asked where it was and was told her husband was working on a supply line to the house, and it was lead. "We don't have anything, call a plumber." She insisted we would have something. So I told to go ask her husband two questions- 1. Is it a water supply line? 2. Is he certain it's lead? She came back with yes and yes. This a a fairly affluent suburb where all the lead supply lines had been replaced over a decade earlier. ALL OF THEM! Well, seems except for hers. And how many others? So, I told her to call public works which handled the water, or a plumber. The big boxes - and me - can't take on the liability of helping anyone repair a lead supply line.
Like working in an old boiler house that's been certified asbestos free. It isn't.
Apparently, NYC still has wooden supply lines for water underground. A large percentage of the water delivered to Manhattan doesn't make it to end users.
I'm looking forward to the electric Abrams and the electric Amtrack.
It would be better to let demand drive development rather than some five year government plan.
From the proposal it sounds like government is spending billions to point out where the charging stations are, not actually building out charging infrastructure?
A curious press might inquire into the last round of infrastructure spending by Democrats.
If I recall, Biden was in charge of the database tracking “every dollar”.
President Barack Obama placed Biden in charge of supervising implementation of the stimulus to underscore his promise of strict oversight of the package, which is aimed at creating or saving 3 million to 4 million jobs.
Biden said transparency and accountability are key to the program's success.
"There are going to be mistakes made," said Biden. "Some people are being scammed already."
"Our credibility depends on transparency" for how taxpayers dollars are used, he added.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSTRE5516HE20090602
"The installation costs are massively cheaper than the costs of installing and filling massive underground gasoline tanks."
I have customers who have paid well over $100,000 just to upgrade their electrical service simply to add chargers. As far as the chargers, installtion costs vary based on where you want them, but it can get pricey. The chargers themselves, not that bad.
By the way, the Feds are already helping pay for this with a 20% tax credit up to $30,000.
Why can't these people just leave us the fuck alone?
Rusty at 1:45. Rem accu tetigiste
“The argument against this argument is there is already an extraordinary amount of excess generating capacity- at night, which is when the majority of vehicle recharging takes place. Grid storage and homeowner level storage is creeping along with the slow introduction of EVs into the fleet. By the time we see a preference cascade to EVs (if we see it) the grid will be able to handle it. Plus with storage increasing, we may even get to lose some generating capacity and see a reduced cost for electricity, since we won't need expensive 'peak period' generating plants that run as little as a few hours a year.”
Ok. Wind blows some at night. Often not as much as during the day. But the sun surely don’t shine at night.
How are we not going to need peak generating power, if we install more solar and wind power? You seem to be suggesting that the amount of solar and wind power generated will be more than sufficient to cover peak usage but given how counter cyclical both of these are, that would require significant excess capacity at no peak times. Where does that electricity go? You can’t put it into the grid. Nowhere for it to go there. As these sources increase, at least in CA, the electrical system is getting more fragile and unstable, not less. Used to not have very many brownouts. Now rolling brownouts are becoming routine. And you expect that building more solar and wind capacity will make this better?
...Give up EVs, or give up “renewable” electricity....
...The argument against this argument is there is already an extraordinary amount of excess generating capacity- at night...
Hmmm, Hmmmm, Hmmmmm.... REALLY? REALLY?????
we're talking about how EV's and "renewable" electricity are incompatible;
And Someone (with a straight look on their face,) says:
There is already an extra ordinary amount of excess generating capacity- at night...
FROM RENEWABLES?!?!?!? REALLY??? REALLY?????
i'm kinda wondering about the efficiency of solar AT NIGHT
It's 2009 on steroids.
Oh WAIT A MINUTE! i GET it now!!
by "renewable" electricity, you mean Personal Gas (or Diesel) Generators!!!!
Well, YEAH! i guess they ARE "renewable", if you mean you can refill the tank
I Guess that's true, for Public charging stations TOO
Seriously, in this Brave New World, i recommend Everyone getting personal generators
Our new house will have a 500-gal propane tank and a 22kW generator. We're outside of the urban growth boundary with zoning of one house per 5-ac. When the power goes out, we'll be the last to get it back. Been there, done that when we lived in our Bellevue house. The power was out for six days after a monster November wind storm with freezing temperatures.
I'm not a plumber but have done a lot of plumbing and pipefitting since the 60s. I've worked with pretty much every kind of pipe and tube there is at one time or another.
I have never even seen a lead pipe though I have used lead bar solder to assemble cast iron drain pipe.
Apparently, in older cities, there is still lead pipe connecting the water main to the meter in many instances.
But probably not on anything built since the 60s.
So just how serious, quantitativly, a problem is lead water pipe? How many homes get water through lead pipe at any point in their supply?
And, how much of a problem is it for those that do?
I think that what most people think is lead pipe, like journalists who say "Smith hit Jones with a lead pipe" have no idea what they are talking about. Smith probably hit JOnes with a galvanized pipe. That would be most common.
John Henry
Gilbar said:
"That's ONLY A MILLION F*CKING DOLLARS, for EACH home (including "housing units") that would be built or "retrofitted" or "renovated"".
Very few people bother to drill down to the per unit cost of these govt boondoggles. There ought to be a law that every stinking proposed bill lays out very very clearly how much the thing costs per taxpayer and per beneficiary [taxeater], etc.
Blogger Mike of Snoqualmie said...
Our new house will have a 500-gal propane tank and a 22kW generator.
If I were you I would think about a Faraday cage.
The White House says the proposal would pay for itself over 15 years because many of the tax increases would remain even as the spending proposals only last for eight years....
OK, where do I go to get my replacement keyboard? This one has coffee all over it!
When has a fed EVER stopped spending the "income" from a tax? How STUPID are these people? Taxes are NOT income, they are theft from others, at the point of a gun, so that the government can fund its self. It is a drain on the economy and on individual productivity.
It is a necessary evil in a best case situation and the death of a country in the worst.
Individuals make decisions based on evaluation of risk/reward. Raise taxes and those paying more taxes don't do nothing, they make a new set of decisions based on the loss of these extra funds that the taxes consume.
Every single tax "income" projection is a lie as it does not account for individual reaction to the new tax.
These people have taught me to loath them, one and all...
Elon Musk is already bring superfast broadband to the entire US and the world in a couple years.
Service via starlink is already available in may areas. I'm on the waiting list but it is supposed to be available in PR by 2022.
It is supposed to be superfast, like 500mb down, IIRC. I think the cost is supposed to be reasonable. Less than I pay the cable company.
Info here www.starlink.com
This is a private company. I don't know if they are getting a subsidy or not.
What the Hell do we need govt getting into this for?
John Henry
“Our new house will have a 500-gal propane tank and a 22kW generator.”
Hope you already have the generator on order. At least in NW MT, N ID, and NE WA, there seems to be a pretty good backlog for generators.
Since the US no longer mines lead within our country's borders, will the lead pipes under discussion be recycled? What is the likelihood that some of these lead pipes will be recast into bullets for firearms? Will Biden somehow legislate that this does NOT happen, or is he accepting the direct fruits of his proposed actions: more deaths and injuries from Gun Violence?
Biden is making more dead Americans. He should be impeached.
Best experience to become a Democrat politician: used car salesman.
Best experience to become a Republican politician: forgiving victim of spousal abuse.
surprise
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/03/more-than-half-of-bidens-infrastructure-bill-does-not-go-towards-infrastructure/#comments
This sounds like solyndra II
Electric charging stations will appear,like magic, when the market identifies the need. I suspect companies that drive for a living will require such infrastructure and construct it for their own fleet of electric vehicles, and will provide public access to their infrastructure to generate income.
We can't afford to pay for the stuff the government already bought for us. Why would we be ordering more stuff? Hell, we can't even pay for the stuff they bought us before 1970.
“So just how serious, quantitativly, a problem is lead water pipe? How many homes get water through lead pipe at any point in their supply?”
Probably very much depends on where you are. Little problem here the PHX area, which had negligible population in the 1960s. Maybe a significant problems in deep Blue urban shitholes, that should have been retiring lead pipe for decades now, but have chosen to spend their money elsewhere. In short, a massive subsidy to Deep Blue urban shitholes, whose responsibility replacing this is. But, of course, big city machines have to be rewarded, because they are the ones who illegally manufactured probably over a million fraudulent votes to put Biden in the WH.
Blogger Curious George said...
By the way, your fellow citizens are having money taken from them at gunpoint and the Feds using it to help pay for this. with a 20% tax credit up to $30,000.
FIFY
If it is such a great idea and it will pay for itself, why?
John Henry
George,
On the commercial chargers, the ones I might find in a parking lot that will charge quickly, how many amp/volt service do they need?
Same question for home: How many amps/volts would I need for a fast enough charger to go empty to full in 4-6 hours? (Or whatever is typical)
Where does the juice come from? (Solar? Wind? Coal? Gas? Utility or home?)
John Henry
What is the actual percentage of the bill that could plausibly be considered infrastructure? I'll be surprised if it is over 50%. If it was 25% I wouldn't be shocked.
That's what these bills are these days. They get a pretty name that sounds all good and nice and then they hide everything they can in there because our media propagandists don't care, plus the propagandists are too dumb to understand it anyway.
Most homes built in the past few decades, and almost any older home, cannot add 60Amps to their home's wiring for a car charger, without spending $2000 to $5000 or more to renovate their circuit breaker boxes and interior wiring. So they'll be using 10Amp or 20Amp circuits for car charging, and taking 8-12 hours to complete a charge.
As a small general contractor building and selling new construction residential homes here in Austin, I now put 60Amp circuits in the carports of my new houses so the buyers can recharge their cars. The cost is a less than $2000 bucks per new home. Tesla says one can achieve 44 miles of travel for an hour's charge.
One can fill up with gas in 5 minutes and achieve 350 miles of travel capability, without limits on the range due to cold weather or use of my AC. EV is still an anser in search of a problem to solve.
Imagine your city has a blackout and the only car you have is an EV. I'm all for EVs, I just want an internal combustion engine to charge it. Maybe pull one behind the EV on a trailer.
I pledge to do all of this myself, for 80% of the "expected costs," and guarantee similar final results.
You're welcome.
Mike,
Re the generator, propane is nice but may not always be easy to come by.
Make sure you get a dual fuel generator gas/propane.
Also, consider a marine water heater. You can use the hot gas from the engine exhaust to heat a ton of water. Maybe enough to heat the whole house plus hot water.
John Henry
None of this "infrastructure" money will actually pay for infrastructure. It'll be sucked down into the Democrat consultants' black holes.
It'll be propane. There's no gas service where we live. The water heater is a heat pump type with electric backup for when the temperature is below 20-25-deg F., which doesn't happen very often here.
Darkisland:
I read you comment as [natural] gas/propane, not gasoline/propane. Yeah, that's a good idea.
All Americans would have access to high-speed Internet broadband by the end of the decade.
Uh, that's already available today, thanks to Elon Musk and his Starlink venture. No government funding is necessary. He's also working on the vehicle charging stations.
So just how serious, quantitativly, a problem is lead water pipe? How many homes get water through lead pipe at any point in their supply?
>>
In 2000, Madison Water Utility launched its Lead Service Replacement Program aimed at physically replacing every single known lead service pipe in the city, more than 8,000 in all. The landmark program would take 12 years to complete and cost $15.5 million.
Madison has 1/1500 of the nation's population, roughly.
So, if every city had the same problem as Madison, $23+ Billion, or 1/1000 of the bullshit "infrastructure" bill.
Dammit. 1/100.
Bruce Hayden @4:11
Preach it!
Mike
Whether heat pump or direct electric you are running the genny for the juice while 30% of the fuel or so gets wasted as exhaust heat. Capture that and use it for hot water and space heating.
Another 30 gets wasted as engine heat. If a water cooled engine, you can also recover that heat. And have a quieter installation.
John Henry
Blogger Todd said...
"When has a fed EVER stopped spending the "income" from a tax? How STUPID are these people?"
"Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program." --Milton Friedman
“Our minds tell us, and history confirms, that the great threat to freedom is the concentration of power. Government is necessary to preserve our freedom, it is an instrument through which we can exercise our freedom; yet by concentrating power in political hands, it is also a threat to freedom. Even though the men who wield this power initially be of good will and even though they be not corrupted by the power they exercise, the power will both attract and form men of a different stamp.” ― Milton Friedman
I agree that mechanically an electric car has a lot of advantages. Much simpler to build own and operate
If the battery problem, cost, weight, pollution, charging time, range, power source could be solved, I'd be a huge advocate.
John Henry
I'll ask about that. The question is how much more will that be. Power outages here are a lot less frequent than they were 10 years ago. Puget Sound Energy's been very good about trimming trees near power lines. Unlike PGE in California. The likeliest outage will be a wind storm in November. And of course, there's always a risk of earthquakes.
Bagoh,
Isn't that what a prius is? An engine that runs at efficient speed charging the battery to make the car go?
Put a 20 hp engine plus battery good for 50 75 miles. Charge it at home use the engine as needed to keep it charged on longer trips.
John Henry
"The White House says the proposal would pay for itself over 15 years because many of the tax increases would remain even as the spending proposals only last for eight years...."
The beatings will continue even after moral improves.
We have as 2007 Prius, my wife's car. She loves it. The engine and the motor can run in tandem. At low speed, it's the motor moving the car. At higher speed, the engine moves the car and charges the battery. It has a regenerative braking system to recharge the battery. If extra power is required, both the engine and the motor can move the car.
Did you see anything at all about this stuff in Biden*'s basement campaign? Me neither. It's a Green New Deal Trojan Horse. This isn't what Americans voted/frauded for.
What about all the lead solder?
This buckshot decimated the charter fishing/guide industry for the middle class. My guy in Destin says it’s happening again.
I have a Prius and two Hyundai Ioniqs. My youngest son is driving the 9 year old Prius. Went with the Ioniqs because of lifetime battery warranty for original purchaser. Sooner or later I'll have to replace the Prius batteries.
But the best most efficient way to drive is with a hybrid. More efficient than having a distant power plant charge up your battery. So far, they all seem to have a blended mechanical-electric drive which work together and seem to me to be unnecessarily complicated. Pure electric drive as Darkisland said is much simpler. Seems to me they should make the drive 100% electric, and the gasoline or diesel engine a coupled genset designed to run at most efficient speed for the engine. Having it come on and off as needed to either charge or on long steep hills assist the battery. The genset would be the part most likely to fail- and since it isn't part of the drivetrain- it could be designed to be taken out with a few bolts and a big plug and a new or refurbished unit dropped right in place. A few quick disconnects and you could couple the engine to a fixed radiator for cooling the engine and assisting the car's heating system.
Ah, heating, that's a thing. When it's in single digits outside, the engine runs more just to keep the cooling water warm. Both in the Prius and the Ioniq. That's part of the reason the Ioniq mileage drops from 53-55 MPG in summer to 45-46 MPG in the coldest part of winter. That and the winter gas formulation.
There's over 150,000 miles on the Prius. Toyota warranted the batteries for 100,000. Because I live in NY- the state told them it was 150,000 miles. I've been reliably informed some people get >250,000 miles from the original set.
The vast majority of people can recharge their EV overnight using a regular 120V socket, and get enough charge to last the average person's commuter day. If you have a 15 gallon gas tank, and get 25 miles to the gallon, you have a 375 mile range. (Teslas can do 250-400 miles) How often do you refuel your car? What if you could drop 2 or 3 gallons in the tank at night while you're asleep?
stevew said...
What about all the lead solder?
Your water has to be acidic- very acidic for it to leach into your water. TBH, not actually a big problem. It's one of those made up problems, like the radon scam.
How often do you refuel your car? What if you could drop 2 or 3 gallons in the tank at night while you're asleep?
>>
About once every 2 weeks.
5 minutes.
Don't have to remember to plug it in, don't have to pull it in the garage or haul a cord outside.
Don't have to wait
And, in California, there's no significant cost benefit. It costs $36-$54 to fill up your electrons thanks to the price of power.
EV's are really only good as commuter cars. When we go on vacation, our destination is well over what an EV can do on a single charge. We can stop for gas and if it's not crowded, be done in five minutes. We usually plan our trips to refuel at Costcos and sometime have to wait 30-minutes before we can pull up to the pump. In an all EV situation, the number of recharging stations would have to be 10 times the number of gas pumps just to keep the wait time down.
Your water has to be acidic- very acidic for it to leach into your water.
Yes, indeed. Should have included /sarc at the end of my comment.
From the WaPo: Please correct or explain if this is wrong.
"As little as 12 percent of the energy from a car’s gasoline fuel goes toward making it move. ...By contrast, battery electric vehicles are between 60 and 100 percent efficient. Even if the electricity that powers them comes from fossil fuel sources, they’re using a lot less of it, so their emissions are far lower."
Here
What's hilarious about this bill is that Trump would have been delighted to sign it into law exactly four years ago but Democrats had already decided Orange Man Bad.
In the movies, it was some post-apocalyptic event like nuclear war or something that caused it. I never was clear on that.
But in Joe Biden's America, Road Warrior will be legislated and imposed by government.
Bottom line seems to be if an EV doesn't work for you don't buy one. They work great for plenty of people. Tesla claims over 90 percent of their vehicle miles occur less than 50 miles from home. This year you'll be able to take delivery of at least one vehicle with gen 2 batteries that offer 500 miles of range, and will recharge at rates as high as 300mi/hr. If that still doesn't work for you diaper wearing Cannonball runners, feel free to keep your gas/diesel rig...
the number of recharging stations would have to be 10 times the number of gas pumps just to keep the wait time down
Meanwhile Joe's pals the Chinese are just laughing and laughing and laughing in their gas-powered cars.
Meanwhile Joe's pals the Chinese are just laughing and laughing and laughing in their gas-powered cars.
China is the world's largest electronic vehicle market.
Ha, ha. Look at these sweater-around-the-neck country clubbers going on in their white privilege about driving their electric cars.
Where you planning on putting those power stations in the projects? How they going to buy these things that cost three times what they make or get? That's right, you want the Black folks keeping to the bus, so it doesn't matter.
The problem with the WaPoo's efficiency numbers is they're ignoring the efficiency of the power station and the transmission network.
the end-to-end efficiency will be:
[generator efficiency]x[transmission efficiency]x[charging station efficiency]x[battery efficiency]x[motor efficiency]
A natural gas generator efficiency is about 35%.
Transmission efficiency is about 94%
Charging station efficiency is about 90%
Battery efficiency is about 85%
Motor efficiency per WaPoo:80%
End-to-end efficiency: 20%
The WaPoo is underselling the car's efficiency. Looks like both ICE and EV have roughly the same efficiency.
As far as I can tell, a super-duper Level 3 charging station will, optimistically, take half an hour to charge the car. Is that about right? So, long road trips are out.
Not interested in the slightest.
H said, From the WaPo: Please correct or explain if this is wrong.
"As little as 12 percent of the energy from a car’s gasoline fuel goes toward making it move. ...By contrast, battery electric vehicles are between 60 and 100 percent efficient. Even if the electricity that powers them comes from fossil fuel sources, they’re using a lot less of it, so their emissions are far lower."
Well, first off, it is just flat out not true.
If you are getting your electricity for a car from a coal-burning power plant then you're emitting considerably more CO2 than if you drove a comparably-sized car powered by an internal combustion engine.
That's been said over and over, and I've never seen it challenged, and it's always been an amazing irony, that if you lived in say the mid-west where most of the power comes from coal, or that was the case until recently, you would produce more CO2 by driving an electric car.
And of course there is a direct connection between CO2 and efficiency, because if the whole system wasn't less efficient overall the electricity from coal powered car wouldn't be emitting more CO2.
Now I don't know what the CO2 numbers are for a power plant powered by natural gas. That would be an interesting, and no doubt complicated, exercise to try to calculate.
But what about electricity coming from solar cells? Is that going to be more energy efficient than an internal combustion engine?
Well my first response is that this is the wrong question -- because this isn't really the metric people care about.
But my second response is what the heck is the Washington Post talking about? It's like they don't know some very basic facts.
a) 20% would be a typical solar cell efficiency.
b) We have to subtract from that losses from storing it in a battery -- which I need to look up and probably depends on the battery -- but as a placeholder let's say it's 30%.
c) And then since the solar energy isn't usually being produced right where it is being used, we have transmission losses. And this can be pretty substantial because of the low voltages that solar cells produce. Again I'd have to look up the actual number, which would be a range, but as a placeholder say 15%.
So 0.2 x 0.7 x 0.85 = 11.9%
Hmmm....there's a big difference between 12% and 60%. What am I missing?
After thinking about that a bit more I was wrong when I said, "...because if the whole system wasn't less efficient overall the electricity from coal powered car wouldn't be emitting more CO2." Because that is not necessarily the case.
The electricity from coal powered car might actually be more efficient despite it generating more CO2. I'm not saying it actually is. But it just that without going deeper in the math of it, it might be.
This gets at the point where I said above that energy efficiency is the wrong metric.
There are two numbers that most people actually care about in this context. What it costs and CO2 emissions.
An EV vehicle just shifts the CO2 generation for the car to the power plant, which may be located thousands of miles away. Not to mention all the CO2 generation required to make the battery, motor and electronics and all the mining required to recover the tiny amounts of rare earth elements that go into an EV system.
An EV vehicle just shifts the CO2 generation for the car to the power plant, which may be located thousands of miles away.
I don't give a shit about that. I don't believe in AGW, and I support fossil fuels (including fracking).
EVs are simply better than ICE vehicles in every way but range and speed of charging, and those are improving all of the time.
For instance, here's something that never gets mentioned... look at the government's list of safest cars to drive.
As far as I can tell, a super-duper Level 3 charging station will, optimistically, take half an hour to charge the car. Is that about right? So, long road trips are out.
You don't spend a half hour going to the bathroom, grabbing a snack and just stretching when you fill your tank on a long road trip?
Remind me not to take a road trip with you.
Thanks to Mike from Snoqualmie and mandrewa for thoughtful responses. Commenters to WaPo make a similar point. Here's from the most liked: "Electric cars need to overcome road and air friction too. They're on wheels, there's road friction. They're moving through the air, you need to design for aerodynamics there too. Electricity is lossy, too; there's no completely efficient energy transfer." As is usual with WaPo, the commenters offer more information than do the reporters.
Where you planning on putting those power stations in the projects?
Where the gas station are right now.
How they going to buy these things that cost three times what they make or get?
The same way they buy an ICE car. EV's are competitive on price within their class.
That's right, you want the Black folks keeping to the bus, so it doesn't matter.
Not really. In any case, the bus is going to be electric too.
"You don't spend a half hour going to the bathroom, grabbing a snack and just stretching when you fill your tank on a long road trip?"
30 minutes? Every time I fill the tank? Not even close.
Biden: So, all I need is money from the Cabal to build infrastructure. And then, the country is ours.
Ruling Cabal: Wow! Well, very nice presentation. I'd like to see this budget deficit shrink ray.
Biden: Absolutely! Will do. Soon as I have it.
Cabal: You don't have it? And yet you have the audacity to ask us extremely wealthy people for money?
Biden: Apparently.
Cabal: Do you have any idea of the capital that the Cabal has invested in you, Biden? With far too few of your sinister plots actually turning a profit. How can I put it? Let's say this high-speed rail project is you. If we don't start getting our money back... Get the picture?
Look, Biden, the point is, there are a lot of new politicians out there, younger than you, hungrier than you, younger than you. Like that young woman out there named AOC. She just used an emotional story about past sexual abuse to bring charges against unarmed Trump supporters for trying to overthrow the government!
Biden: I've got it. I've got it. So, as far as getting money for the infrastructure...
Cabal: Get the shrink ray, then we'll talk.
Remind me not to take a road trip with you.
Gahrie, we understand you are an enthusiast. Fair enough. Try not to stretch too far as some points like this weaken your argument. We drive to California from Tucson every three months or so to see kids and grandkids. We get from Tucson to Quartzite on one tank. Full up, potty, get some chips and cokes in 10 minutes and are on our way. The next stop is in OC. That is 475 miles. Coming back, we fill up in OC, at CA prices, and make it to AZ before we have to fill up again. Then, back to Tucson, usually on the same tank. I have friends with Teslas. They can't do that, and one says his wife has a "heavy foot" and he can see the battery drain when she is driving.
"The same way [the poor] they buy an ICE car. EV's are competitive on price within their class."
***********************
Yeah, SURE they are---as long as taxpayers kick in the $7500 subsidy.
But wait---we can call that "reparations"!!
It's all good.
Every car has a most efficient speed. But you can't operate at that speed constantly. An automobile engine has to be oversized for what's needed for normal cruising speed in order to get you up to normal cruising speed before you get creamed. Same goes for trucks.
An electric motor operates close to the same efficiency regardless or load. The battery- ah, doesn't vary much, but does have a most efficient charge/discharge rate. And they're going to be different. And you never want to bring the battery to full charge- though you think you do- because to increase overall efficiency, you will use regenerative braking. On my 36 mile commute home at midnight, when I don't have to worry about irritating people behind me, I use my mechanical brakes at the very end of slowing down for stop signs and stop lights- and in a big hurry for deer. I now where to turn the cruise control off for each speed limit change so I'm down to speed by the time I get to the sign. Actually got pulled over once because a trooper saw me slow down to 45 then 30- with no brake lights. Then, they went on as I stopped for him. I took the time to explain how hybrids worked- there weren't that many of them around yet.
It wouldn't be hard at all to design a close-coupled gen set to operate at most efficient speed to charge a car while running. Let's say enough power to keep the car going at 65 MPH up the Grapevine without charging or discharging the battery. Then at 65 MPH on any fairly flat road, some electricity would go straight to the electric motors, some to charge the battery, until it gets to 80%. (Leaving 20% headroom for braking. Not enough if the battery is at 80% when you start going down the Grapevine....) If you've never driven the Grapevine- in the car I had at the time, if I hit the bottom at 80, and no one got in my way, I'd be at 60 at the top. If someone got in my way- that's the speed I'd be doing the rest of the way. It really is amazing how many will end up doing 40 MPH in the far left lane... both amazing and very very irritating.
There's always a tradeoff between efficiency and power. And a tradeoff on weight and safety. One of the things I wasn't taught in public school but learned in real life- there's no such thing as "The Perfect Car". My Mennonite neighbors with an even dozen kids need almost a bus for family transport. My wife and I could now use a 2 seat sports car for tooling about, but we'll stick with a small 4 door sedan. And the RAV-4 sitting in the drive for when we need to pick something up. Most people around here have pickup trucks for that, and their daily commute.
As for pure electric vehicles, one word of advice. Don't buy one if you live in a hurricane evacuation zone. Or in areas with frequent winter road closures.
Gahrie said...
As far as I can tell, a super-duper Level 3 charging station will, optimistically, take half an hour to charge the car. Is that about right? So, long road trips are out.
You don't spend a half hour going to the bathroom, grabbing a snack and just stretching when you fill your tank on a long road trip?
Remind me not to take a road trip with you.
*************
Gahrie mindlessly assumes that everyone has a home charging station, so they never get caught with a low tank.
SNORT.
So, no, Gahrie, I don't take a half-hour break to gas up when I see I'm running on fumes and can't risk the 5-mile trip-and-back to the Safeway for groceries.
"By the way, the Feds are already helping pay for this with a 20% tax credit up to $30,000."
******************
NO. TAXPAYERS are paying for this idiocy, not the Feds, who merely collect it from us by holding a gun to our heads.
The arguments going back and forth here about EV's are interesting but somewhat pointless. The real money for automakers in EV's are in high end vehicles. Tesla's problem is while their range is great for EV's, their build quality leaves a lot to be desired and the interiors are nothing special. I never considered buying an EV first because of the range issue, second due to the charging station issue and third and just as important there wasn't a luxury sedan EV. A startup is offering a vehicle that meets my needs so I put a deposit down on it? Do I care about climate change? Hell no.
Do I need to virtue signal? Again, hell no. What I do need and want is a vehicle with the ride comfort of an Lexus LS 460 but has more interior space and especially more leg room and yet the overall dimensions are smaller. I found one and I preordered it.
The price is about the same or a little less than the current Lexus equivalent of the LS 460. I will install the 60 amp service for my house and there half dozen charging stations near where I live and several near where I work. The vehicle I'm ordering is supposed to get 400 miles on a full charge. That was the first past the post for me. Realistically I expect 280 miles which is what I drive per week. So for the same money I get a sedan that is designed to compete with Lexus, has the same practical one a week fill up as my current Lexus, has more leg room, is quieter and has a better center of gravity which all else being the same makes the car safer. Since most luxury cars use 93 octane the fuel the price of a twenty gallon fill up or an 85% charge at worst is the same. Possibly less. There is a reason Mercedes, Audi and Volvo are getting into the premium EV market. Is this type of vehicle for all? Most certainly not. But there is a market for vehicles like this. As for the power generation issues, when enough of these types of cars are on the road sanity will prevail and nuclear power plants will be built as there is no practical non air polluting electrical generation method besides nuclear power.
“Since the US no longer mines lead within our country's borders, “
The US produces lead concentrate at a rate of 280,000 metric tons per year from 6 mines. It is all sent overseas for smelting though.
An important issue is choice and needs. If I'm not in a hurry, I might be OK with chilling with a book for half an hour, but if I'm in a hurry to meet a schedule, that mandatory 30 minute wait is going to be excruciating. Why would I voluntarily straightjacket myself like that and buy one of these things? I'm not interested.
And that's even assuming a charging station is available when I pull in. Has anyone produced an estimate of what a highway charging site has to look like to meet the need if everyone is driving EVs?
Can you imagine pulling in an finding 3 cars ahead of you?
And that's even assuming a charging station is available when I pull in. Has anyone produced an estimate of what a highway charging site has to look like to meet the need if everyone is driving EVs?
Simply replace each existing gas station with a charging station.
"Can you imagine pulling in an finding 3 cars ahead of you?"
On my first trip back to Phoenix from SoCal, I waited until I got to AZ to refill my tank to save on gas. That stop is at the Flying J in Ehrenberg and I'm convinced the convenience store there was the inspiration for the cantina scene in Star Wars. Every pump had a 4 to 5 car line, their website says they have 10 lanes.
So there's that...
Gahrie mindlessly assumes that everyone has a home charging station, so they never get caught with a low tank.
A 120V socket overnight will provide 100 miles of range the next day.
"Simply replace each existing gas station with a charging station"
That's clearly insufficient; current facilities would back up if it took 30 minutes to gas up each car.
So, I guess a back of the envelope calculation is, if it takes 5 minutes to gas a car, we would need 6 charging stations for every gas pump we have now.
Josephbleau said...
“Since the US no longer mines lead within our country's borders, “
The US produces lead concentrate at a rate of 280,000 metric tons per year from 6 mines. It is all sent overseas for smelting though.
That's because they all have better environmental laws and we know the lead will be handled safely without any harm to people, plants, or animals.
"Simply replace each existing gas station with a charging station."
It takes about five minutes to fill a tank with gas. Tesla says a supercharger station will charge to 80% in 30 minutes. Call it 100%, and you can fill up 6 gas tanks for every 1 electron bucket. How many more "pumps" do you need to handle the same number of electric cars as a regular gas station already does without having to put in a motel for people waiting to charge up?
Simply replace each existing gas station with a charging station.
Filling up with gas is a 5-minute operation. Recharging is a 30-minute operation. To maintain the same throughput, it's going to take 6 charging stations for each gas pump. It would be a really good trick to squeeze 6 charging stations into the space required for 1 gas pump.
It takes about five minutes to fill a tank with gas. Tesla says a supercharger station will charge to 80% in 30 minutes. Call it 100%, and you can fill up 6 gas tanks for every 1 electron bucket. How many more "pumps" do you need to handle the same number of electric cars as a regular gas station already does without having to put in a motel for people waiting to charge up?
You're ignoring the fact that most commuters aren't going to be using the charging stations at all, they're going to do it at home, at night when they're asleep. As a bonus, the electricity they buy will be even cheaper, and quite a few will have free electricity from their solar panels.
There are EV charging stations at the Kennebunk ME turnpike (I95) service plaza. I think Kennebunk Power & Light installed them. When I periodically drive by (that's where I enter the highway going north and exit coming south) I have never seen a vehicle connected.
Serious question: does one pay to charge their EV at one of these charging points?
"You're ignoring the fact that most commuters aren't going to be using the charging stations at all, they're going to do it at home, at night when they're asleep."
No, I'm talking about what happens on the weekend when those commuters all want to take a trip. Take a look at my earlier post about the gas station in Ehrenberg- 10 pumps, each fueling a car and each line with 4 or 5 more cars waiting behind it. How does that work for EVs? 2 to 3 hour waits before even getting to the charger?
Serious question: does one pay to charge their EV at one of these charging points?
Short answer: yes.
There are several different companies building charging stations right now, but Tesla dominates by a big margin. Each has different charging systems and rates. I'm assuming that eventually there will be a standard charging socket/outlet combination, but right now we're still living in a Betamax/VHS world.
Originally when you bought a Tesla it did include free charging at their stations. That is no longer true.
"You're ignoring the fact that most commuters aren't going to be using the charging stations at all, they're going to do it at home, at night when they're asleep. As a bonus, the electricity they buy will be even cheaper, and quite a few will have free electricity from their solar panels."
I believe the discussion was about highway travel. What are we supposed to do when we hit the road for the weekend? (I know, we aren't supposed to do that in the brave new world.)
No, I'm talking about what happens on the weekend when those commuters all want to take a trip. ... How does that work for EVs? 2 to 3 hour waits before even getting to the charger?
Charging times and battery range are both improving extremely quickly. There is no reason to expect this not to continue just as fuel stops and mpg did for ICE cars.
Original Mike why are people assuming EV's will be the only vehicles in two vehicle households? And why assume in a two car household a long distance trip will only be with the EV? ICE cars will never go away, it's that over time they will make up a smaller percentage of the total car market.
The "tax breaks for fossil fuel corp" are just ordinary business expenses. There are no special breaks. Windmills and solar on the other hand...
The tax hikes will kill the goose that lays the golden egg. It will slam the brakes on econ growth. Trump's tax reduction spurred the boom that saw 3.4% unemployment and rising wages.
You guys sound like all the people telling the Wright brothers they were wasting their time.....
Or the buggy makers making almost exactly the same arguments when ICE cars were introduced.
Biden promised to raise taxes, stop drilling and fracking, and open the border. The voters seemed to either not understand these things or not be paying attention.
Actually, I am considering an EV. They just replaced the handicapped parking spaces in front of the gun club I belong to here with EV charging slots. Always empty, of course. Primo parking spots. Around PHX, I would probably have to recharge a couple times a week. I just don’t drive that much distance. And AZ isn’t limited like CA is about shifting electric generation to highly erratic, overpriced, oversubsidized “renewables”. Instead, we sell some of our excess electricity to CA, who can’t seem to generate enough power on their own. Expect to retain a real car for road trips, so the EV doesn’t really have do be that fancy, since it would only be me in it.
I just have a problem with everyone else subsidizing my parking slot preferences. Or your virtue signaling. That said, if this all is enacted, I would probably accept federal rebates to buy the EV solely as a way to help, a little, in recouping the massive tax increase we would be facing on corporate income taxes.
"Charging times and battery range are both improving extremely quickly."
Fine, if they do I might be interested. I have nothing against the idea of an electric car in principle. I object to the bum rush. If they really were ready, the hard sell wouldn't be necessary.
The vast majority of people can recharge their EV overnight using a regular 120V socket
really?
do the VAST MAJORITY of people live in houses? With Garages?
I don't
If you live in an apartment, how's this overnight charge supposed to work?
On final thought; about 'long road trips'
Are you REALLY, going to want to be forced to take your '30 minute leg stretches'
at charging stations? Or are you going to have to do those, and THEN stop at the diner you wanted to eat at?
ps. When i travel to Wyoming, A LOT. It's "only" 925 miles from my house to the Bighorn natl forest. I can do that in a little less than 13 hours. Would i be able to do that in only Two stops... I don't think so. If i COULD, i'd be looking at 14 hours?
pps. make sure that Gahrie never roadtrips with me!
"Original Mike why are people assuming EV's will be the only vehicles in two vehicle households?"
As a second car they might make sense for some. My wife and I couldn't get by with it. Last summer we needed both our gas cars to shuttle back and forth from the house up north to Madison (4-1/2 hour one way) because the grandchildren needed watching with covid and all. I'd consider it as a third car, if we had room for 3 cars.
"You guys sound like all the people telling the Wright brothers they were wasting their time....."
How much did the government give Orville and Wilbur to design and build their plane?
I'm not opposed to EVs. I'm opposed to the government subsidizing them.
does it seem that EVs are starting to sound, a LOT, like Communism?
As in:
Communism is the PERFECT system, it's NEVER worked; 'cause people just haven't FULLY IMPLEMENTED IT
Once we have PERFECT CHARGING STATIONS, and PERFECT BATTERIES, and PERFECT the idea of sitting around for 30 minutes every 4 hours..
EV's WILL BE PERFECT!!!!
¨ Biden promised to raise taxes, stop drilling and fracking, and open the border. The voters seemed to either not understand these things or not be paying attention.”
Or, maybe, just maybe, the Democrats stole the Presidency and control of rage Senate with north of a million illegal and often bogus fraudulent votes. Did you know that four months after the election, Fulton county GA has still to produce proof of legitimacy for over 400k absentee ballots, when Biden’s margin of victory was in the low five digits in that state? Absentee ballots that were overwhelmingly for Biden , and eliminating them (as should have been required by law) would probably have given Trump maybe a 350k win in that state (and the two GOP Senate candidates wouldn’t have faced run offs). Mysteriously, in all six swing states that were instrumental to Biden’s win, that appeared to have had massive voter fraud, the documentation for the mail in and absentee ballots has been withheld or wiped out, along with the core images of their voting machines.
In short, the voters knew, and voted against this nonsense. Didn’t matter. The Dems just printed up enough ballots to win anyway.
FWIW, we have taken the Tesla on numerous road trips, mostly to the Bay Area and back. The stations are close enough together that there is no trouble about recharging, except when some event gets in the way (one of our trips happened to coincide with a Tesla convention in AZ, and then we found fewer stations than cars). From here, it's Springfield, then Grant's Pass, then (I think) someplace round Mt. Shasta, then Corning, then depends which way you go. There's a supercharger in Petaluma, and now a bunch more round the Bay Area. Fremont, of course. Recharging honestly takes 45 minutes or so.
It's a ten-hour drive from here to SF. You wouldn't want to do that all in one go anyway.
If I buy an EV, I'm basically driving a coal-powered vehicle where I live.
Gahrie,
Originally when you bought a Tesla it did include free charging at their stations. That is no longer true.
It's true if you bought your Tesla when it was true. We still get free charging.
Has anyone mentioned that google maps already shows charging stations? IIRC, you can also plan a trip online with all the needed charging stations marked out along the route.
"That's clearly insufficient; current facilities would back up if it took 30 minutes to gas up each car."
There's an underlying assumption -- faith, actually -- that "technological progress" will resolve this issue in short order.
As a kid in the 1960's, I remember predictions that by 2000 we'd have colonies on the moon and Mars, cities in the sky, and everything would be nuclear-powered. Technology is wonderful but it doesn't pull Unicorns out of thin air.
How much did the government give Orville and Wilbur to design and build their plane?
None, they didn't believe it could be done. They gave them a shit ton immediately after they flew it however.
There's an underlying assumption -- faith, actually -- that "technological progress" will resolve this issue in short order.
Exactly as it did for ICE cars that faced exactly the same problems as an emerging technology.
I just wish we would leave it to the marketplace. People will buy them and investors will build stations if people decide they make sense.
Are you REALLY, going to want to be forced to take your '30 minute leg stretches'
at charging stations? Or are you going to have to do those, and THEN stop at the diner you wanted to eat at?
Chances are, there's a already a charging station within walking distance of the diner if it's on a highway.
Maybe it's time to rethink American citizenship.
Not sure what being a citizen is worth these days when anyone can walk in and get the same exact rights as you have except they don't have to pay any taxes.
Mark,
Where you planning on putting those power stations in the projects? How they going to buy these things that cost three times what they make or get? That's right, you want the Black folks keeping to the bus, so it doesn't matter.
The Tesla Supercharger in Salem is in NE Salem, in a large shopping center used by absolutely everyone. The Black folks on the bus (Route 11 runs along North Lancaster, a block away) would have no more difficulty getting there than I would. Less, actually, b/c there's no direct bus from here to North Lancaster, so I'd need to walk 25 minutes to the nearest bus, then go to the Transit Center, then change buses. Maybe twice, depending on how far I wanted to walk.
Yes, I realize that all of this is unrelated to charging a Tesla, which you'd have to drive there. And FWIW, Salem is about 1.5% Black anyway (I believe there are more Sikhs than Blacks in this city). But your crass "keep the chargers away from the 'projects'" business can't go unnoted.
Gahrie,
How do you charge from home solar panels over night?
Where I live the sun doesn't shine at night.
So I guess batteries in the house to charge from, right?
Or play your fellow utility customers for saps, use the power company as your "battery" and charge the car at night with coal. Or whatever your utility has.
And probably expect the utility to pay you the same price per kwh as you pay them. The "net metering" grift.
John Henry
How much did the government give Orville and Wilbur to design and build their plane?
The Smithsonian paid Langley for his flops, then spent 45 years giving him credit for the first flight and feuding with Orville Wright. In 1948 they finally condescended to show the 1903 Wright brothers aircraft. Bunch of bureaucratic a$$holes, reminds me of Biden.
Gahrie,
Chances are, there's a already a charging station within walking distance of the diner if it's on a highway.
Sure. The Supercharger at Grant's Pass is behind a Black Bear diner (I think the Mt. Shasta one is too), and if you don't happen to like them (I do), there are about a dozen fast-food, &c. places within a block or too.
9 Crazy Examples of Unrelated Waste and Partisan Spending in Biden’s $2 Trillion ‘Infrastructure’ Proposal: “Just roughly one-third of the money goes to the kinds of spending people would usually associate with infrastructure.”
1. $10 Billion to Create a ‘Civilian Climate Corp’
2. $20 Billion to ‘Advance Racial Equity and Environmental Justice’
3. $175 Billion in Subsidies for Electric Vehicles
4. $213 Billion to Build/Retrofit 2 Million Houses & Buildings
5. $100 Billion for New Public Schools and Making School Lunches ‘Greener’ (after $128.5 billion in COVID-19 aid to schools that were mostly closed).
6. $12 Billion for Community Colleges
7. Billions to Eliminate ‘Racial and Gender Inequities’ in STEM
8. $100 Billion to Expand Broadband Internet (And Government (and NGO) Control of It)
9. $25 Billion for Government Childcare Programs
"Recharging honestly takes 45 minutes or so."
I'm not surprised. Thank you for your candor.
Charging stations? LOL. Primitive thinking.
Has to be a way to turn existing concrete and asphalt highways into solar/wind/static electricity powered charge-as-you-drive boulevards.
Or, using wind resistance of moving vehicle to charge car.
Charging stations gonna be like old ten pound bakelite rotary compared to iPhone.
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