११ जानेवारी, २०२१

If the "Capitol mob" was "a raging collection of grievances and disillusionment" as The Washington Post says...

... in its headline, here, then doesn't that mean it wasn't an "insurrection" or much of a plan at all, just a coming together of disparate elements? Let's look at the long article. I'm reading it for the first time and making excerpts and comments as I go. I'm doing this without an agenda, just wanting to figure out what the hell happened and what it means.
Those who made their way to the grounds of the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday hail from at least 36 states, along with the District of Columbia and Canada, according to a Washington Post list of over 100 people identified as being on the scene of the Capitol. Their professions touch nearly every facet of American society: lawyers, local lawmakers, real estate agents, law enforcement officers, military veterans, construction workers, hair stylists and nurses. Among the crowd were devout Christians who highlighted Bible verses, adherents of the QAnon conspiracy theory and members of documented hate groups, including white nationalist organizations and militant right-wing organizations, such as the Proud Boys. 
The list is just a limited cross section of the thousands of people who descended upon the area, yet some striking commonalities are hard to ignore. Almost all on the list whose race could be readily identified are White.

Not sure how that is done. But okay. The Washington Post seems to have compiled a list of 100 people — a hundred out of what? "thousands"? — and it's making assertions about these people, somehow "readily identifying" their race and capitalizing "White." How many of the 100 were in the category whose race was "readily identified"? 10? 80? I have no idea.

Most are men, yet about one in six were women...

2 grammar mistakes there. It needs to be "one in six was a woman" to get subject/verb agreement, and, for parallelism, it needs to be either "Most were men, yet about one in six was a women" or "Most are men, yet about one in six is a women." We can argue about whether past or present tense is worse (or an outright error). But enough tripping along the pleasant side road that is grammar. Back to the substance:

... also almost all White. Many left extensive social media documentation of their passions, ideologies and, in some cases, disillusionment and vendettas.

Great. This is what I've been waiting for. Reading the social media of the various participants in the breaching of the Capitol. 

Their paths to the nation’s capital were largely fueled by long-standing grievances and distrust, and yet planned in spontaneous and ad-hoc fashion.

Was there a plan?  If it was "spontaneous and ad-hoc" then maybe it was not a plan, just diverse individuals whose paths flowed together at that place and time?

Several reported pulling together their travel funds and schedules in just a handful of days. Some took a solitary journey, including flying from coast to coast alone, only to find a shared community upon their final destination in Washington. Others traveled in buses that departed Wednesday at dawn, filled to the brim with other Trump supporters....

Don't mix up the plan to go to a big rally and street protest with a plan to break into the Capitol (and don't mix up a plan to break into the Capitol with a plan to take Mike Pence or members of Congress hostage).

Several who traveled to Washington to support the “Stop the Steal” rally told The Post they were driven by two primary grievances: their opposition to the election results and the restrictions in place to stop the spread of the coronavirus. Lindsey Graham...

Interesting name. 

... a 39-year-old entrepreneur from Salem, Ore., said her eventual path to the Capitol began last spring, when the six small businesses she and her husband own, including tanning salons, a gym and hair salon, were suddenly shuttered because of coronavirus restrictions...  Graham said she was “peacefully protesting” with thousands of people. She said she did not enter the building and does not condone violence. “I’m glad I was there because I am one of the people that can vouch for the crowd,” she said. 
Like Graham, 47-year-old construction worker Pete Harding said he was drawn to the Capitol by his disdain for restrictions to stop the spread of the coronavirus. Until last year, the Upstate New York resident said he had largely confined his strong political opinions to the Internet, describing himself as just a “keyboard warrior.” That’s all changed now, in radical fashion. The first days of 2021 found him — by his own account — charging through the chemical irritants that Capitol Police meant to deter him from entering the U.S. Capitol, rambling through the building, and then attempting to set fire to journalists’ equipment outside.... 
“We know that if Biden-Harris was going to get into office, they’ve said they’re going to make the lockdowns mandatory and mask-wearing mandatory across the country,” he said....

This article is making the lockdown seem more central to the protest than the idea that Trump won the election. 

After listening to Trump’s speech and marching to the Capitol, he found that “our people,” as he described the mob, had already pushed police back up to the top of the Capitol steps.

So Harding doesn't seem to be part of any plan to breach the Capitol, just a person in a crowd who finds out that in some other part of that crowd, something violent is happening. This reminds me of Black Lives Matter events, where there were peaceful protesters in some places and violent people in other parts. Is the whole mass to be called a "mob," with everyone who went to the event held responsible for what everyone else does? The answer should be no.

He waded through the crowd to join them, and persisted up the stairs, though he says police repeatedly deployed irritants to try to deter the mob. Harding describes himself as a “peacekeeper” who charged up the Capitol stairs to protect both police officers and rioters. 
“I started to see everybody going up the stairs at that point, and I decided I needed to be up there. … I knew that things could escalate and I needed to be there to de-escalate things,” he said. “I was there to protect and keep the peace. That’s what I do every single place that I go.”

By his own account, Harding made an independent decision to enter after the breach was made, and he has the image of himself as a "peacemaker."  

Harding said that the only weapon he carried was a dinner fork, which he put in his pocket because he believed he might need it to confront “antifa” or “Muslim brotherhood” fighters. 
It stayed in his pocket. “Fortunately, I didn’t have to wield the kitchen fork menacingly,” he said.

I hear that statement as humorous, though you could do some damage with a fork. Harding also seems to have believed, as I think many do, that any violence was attributable to anti-Trump forces — “antifa” or “Muslim brotherhood."

Once he left the Capitol, he saw journalists with cameras protected by barricades. He says he walked over twice to taunt them, saying, “You’re responsible for this” and “There’s a woman shot — this is on your hands.”

Harding claims that only after he walked away did other Trump supporters harass the journalists to the point that they fled, leaving behind their equipment. He was delighted. “I was kind of happy about it, to be honest with you, not going to lie, because they deserve it. But that’s not a crime,” he said. 

He said he came back and piled up the abandoned equipment, then used a lighter to try to set it on fire though he believed most of it was metal and wouldn’t burn. 

“The visual and the imagery was for the media to see, that they have started our country on fire,” Harding said, “with their constant lies about covid and about Trump.” Harding maintains that he did nothing illegal Wednesday....

Clearly, some of what Harding did is illegal, but — by his own account, assuming he's correctly and fairly quoted — he seems like an independent actor, making his own decisions according to his idea of what is true and good, and not part of a group plan. Just to be clear: I completely oppose the intimidation of the reporters and the damaging of their property. 

Many attendees described a type of fervor they felt that drew them to the Capitol. For 48-year-old Leonard Guthrie Jr., it manifested in his faith in the Lord. The Cape May, N.J., resident hasn’t often been well enough to work since having two surgeries on his back. In the absence of employment, he has heavily leaned into his Christian beliefs and conservative political views. When he heard about the “Stop the Steal” rally, Guthrie thought he could combine his two passions. If he and other Christians had been able to pray outside while senators voted inside, he feels certain it would have changed their votes.... 

He said he broke through a police barrier to reach the U.S. Capitol steps and readily admits his transgressions, bluntly saying: “I broke the law.” Still, he feels aggrieved. “We’ve been silenced for so long,” he said. “For years, because I voted for Trump, I’m called a racist, a Nazi, a bigot and all that stuff, and it’s not right.”

Again, this sounds like an individual making his own decision in real time, not a participant in any plan to enter the Capitol. He wanted to pray outside, and it sounds as though he didn't go inside, but only to the steps, though he did break a barrier, and he's confessionally sorry. 

Others squarely cited their fealty to the president as the force that pulled them to the nation’s capital....

This is a screwy way to blame Trump. Trump is a man, not a force. If the "fealty to the president" is a "force" within people who love him, then "pull" is the wrong word. That wrongness is the tip that WaPo is straining to blame Trump. In any case, this is only saying people were drawn "to the nation's capital." That's only saying they chose to go to the city, not that they felt drawn to enter the Capitol building.

Now, I've read the whole thing. There's nothing here about a plan to break into the Capitol! That doesn't mean there weren't people with such a plan, and I can see why such people wouldn't want to talk to the Washington Post, but this article supports the idea that the crowd consisted of individuals who were acting independently. 

३१२ टिप्पण्या:

«सर्वात जुने   ‹थोडे जुने   312 पैकी 201 – 312
Michael K म्हणाले...

While others may disagree, a low point in Trump's entire political career was attacking Mike Pence (a sober, thoughtful, loyal, stable figure in the Trump administration) as a coward for carrying out his ministerial duties under the US Constitution. That was really, really bad.

Disagree. Pence was a coward when he was Governor of Indiana. The Legislature passed a version of the RFRA, federal legislation signed by Bill Clinton. The NBA and the usual lefties threatened a boycott and Pence folded immediately. He has a nice face and haircut but not much underneath.

I'm not saying Trump had a chance to stop the steal but Pence was no help.

NorthOfTheOneOhOne म्हणाले...

Skippy Tisdale said...

I'm not certain of the source but...


WASHINGTON, District of Corruption—Ignorant Republicans rioted yesterday but didn't even snag any free big-screen TVs out of the deal, sources at the Capitol Building reported.


That's from the Babylon Bee. Ignorant Republicans Riot And Don't Even Get Any Big-Screen TVs

rhhardin म्हणाले...

Scott Adams says Parler can't survive because either they censor (thus making themselves irrelevant) or banks etc. won't deal with them.

Too many cowards to permit Parler to function.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

"Trump just needed more bootlickers."

In politics? Unfortunately that is correct.

A polite term would be 'Wingman.'

Why does that ring a bell?

Btw, what is it like for you, personally, to willingly debase yourself and revel in being part of the progressive hive-mind?

I can't imagine having so much self-loathing.

Thank God I'll never know.

DarigoldVanilla म्हणाले...

Pearl Harbor Attack as interpreted by Trump and his MAGAt army:
-
2,335 American soldiers and sailors dead. Probably Willkie supporters. Better to play it down. Japan is just going to go away, like a miracle. Hawaii isn't even a state.

Lars Porsena म्हणाले...

The rioters missed the boat by not kitting up like AntiFa: helmets, kneepads, elbow pads, boots, thick vests, face shields, and last but not least balaclavas. Most would still be running around if they had followed these simple 'demonstration' tested precautions.

LA_Bob म्हणाले...

Mr Wibble said, "The GOP instead chose to stab Trump in the back. They're going to pay a steep price for that decision."

At this point, it's just about piling on. The "cool kids", mostly Democrats but all too many Republicans, hated that Trump "poached" on their turf and couldn't wait to drive him out. Finally, they got their way. And now they're just stomping all over him in gleeful revenge.

Sorry, Christian Creationists, despite my sympathy for you vs the "follow-the-science" know-it-alls we're really just savage animals after all.

Leland म्हणाले...

Observations from Amadeus tomorrow:

1) Requesting an audit of elections is highly suggestive of insurrection.
2) Parler could have saved themselves some grief by never becoming a business entity at all.
3) A low point in Trump's entire political career was descending the escalator.

A month from now:
1) Calling yourself a conservative is the action of a a traitor
2) Californians could have saved themselves some grief by not trying to heat their home
3) A low point in anyone's political career is registering as a Republican.

Hobbes is the perfect avatar for playing Calvinball.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

"Pence was a coward when he was Governor of Indiana."

Correction, he was a politician not a coward. But same thing.

Achilles म्हणाले...

Howard said...
Trump just needed more bootlickers.

Okay, then


I know you no justification for your actions. You have no real arguments. Nothing that the Democrats and the GOPe are doing right now can stand up to transparency or scrutiny.

That is why you are cheering on censorship.

That is why you are cheering on the persecution of people who disagree with you.

You are just an enemy of freedom.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

"At this point, it's just about piling on. The "cool kids", mostly Democrats but all too many Republicans, hated that Trump "poached" on their turf and couldn't wait to drive him out. Finally, they got their way. And now they're just stomping all over him in gleeful revenge."

This is exactly correct. Every politician looks in the mirror every morning and sees a president.

They were humiliated by a beginner beating them at their own game on the very first try.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

If the Democrats, who control the media, can get you to love a creepy cultist as a gay icon, and hate his decent cop killer as a homophobic monster, they know how to steal an election and outrage a nation.

Howard म्हणाले...

Your wrong Joe Smith. The WH is full of sharks in every administration. They are ass covering note takers with their own ambitions and agendas. The job is too big and too complex for one Alpha. Trump's not a team player.

Sprezzatura म्हणाले...

Althouse wants to know if there was anything organized re the folks that somehow ended up at the Stop the Steal rally where POTUS told them to go to the Capitol to put pressure on Pence and others. And they, as individuals, for some reason decided to “be wild.”

It’s a mystery.

Achilles म्हणाले...

Blogger Amadeus 48 said...
Just a few observations:

1. A Stop the Steal rally is highly suggestive of action.
2. Team Trump would have saved themselves a lot of grief if they had gone nowhere near the Capitol on Wednesday.
3. While others may disagree, a low point in Trump's entire political career was attacking Mike Pence (a sober, thoughtful, loyal, stable figure in the Trump administration) as a coward for carrying out his ministerial duties under the US Constitution. That was really, really bad.


You are such a good little German.

Your masters will be pleased. Maybe even pat you on the head a little.

Sam L. म्हणाले...

The WaPoo: I despise, detest, and totally distrust the WaPoo. The NYT and the media, too.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

If anyone would care to look, The Age of Unreason began about 20 years ago, and Trump’s name wasn’t mentioned as part of it, as far as I know, while the Clintons and Oprah are all over it, even today.

Can’t see how anyone missed it, considering all the trouble.

Amadeus 48 म्हणाले...

Re: Pence

Read the XIIth Amendment. His role is purely ministerial. Read Pence's letter. He said that the objections should be debated in accordance with the statute, and they were.

I swear, Donald J Trump has the ability to cloud peoples' minds.

MayBee म्हणाले...

Glenn Greenwald has some reporting coming out. He says none of these people were active on Parler, but communicated on Facebook.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

"Your wrong Joe Smith."

Still want to know what you think about your life as a political whore.

You're very good at it so you must get paid a lot per trick.

hstad म्हणाले...

Ann Althouse thank you for identifying this post. However, in your comments, I believe you've missed the core issue of the DC demonstrations. As the discredited WaPo headlines state: "...the "Capitol mob" was "a raging collection of grievances and disillusionment". It's not if - it's a fact! Why? It is not by accident Trump was elected as President or Bernie Sanders was more popular then Biden. These grievances are just different sides of the same 'Populist Coin'. The average Joe and Jane have not seen their economic position rise that much since the last recession. Yet, the 'Elites' and 'Wealthy' have gotten wealthier. Why? Because they participated in the greatest Stock Market Value rise in this country's history because of lower interest rates. I'll give you an small example of the abuse of our economic system. Because these interest rates are so low - major public corporations have leveraged [all time high for corporate debt] themselves substantially during that timeframe. But the debt was not so much to expand their productivity, but to buy back their stock. Why? Because by retiring a certain percentage of their company's stock they create an artificial stock shortage thereby increasing the stock's price. Who benefits? Why the top managers of these companies because they issued themselves 'Stock Options' before the debt fueled stock buy-back. Nice game our 'betters' are playing. The average person can't understand why the wealthy got more wealthy and middle class barely kept the head above water. The stock buyback scheme is a perfect example of how the system is rigged in favor of 'Elites'. Jobs exported to China similar issue. Trump tapped into these "...collection of grievances and disillusionment.." to get elected. Bernie Sanders did also from a different direction. That's the 'bird in the coal mine' issue (populism) that this election did not solve. Despite Biden's win, this populism did not go away and will result in this country going either Trump's direction or Sanders' direction the next election. We are living through interesting times.

Howard म्हणाले...

Good morning, Achilles. I have zipties snapties and cable ties in every tool bag too. Velcro gets all the press, but zipties are indispensable. I'm against the deplatform cancel culture. It's a mistake. I believe that allowing foolish people to announce it to the world is the best way to defeat their ideas.

You people need to finesse the situation and capitalize on this mistake. However, many people here say that taking the bait and throwing a tantrum is the path to succeed. So far, I'd say the post election Republican base behavior has lost you any chance advancing in 2022.

Quit digging.

MountainMan म्हणाले...

MayBee said..."Glenn Greenwald has some reporting coming out. He says none of these people were active on Parler, but communicated on Facebook."

CEO of Parler said this yesterday morning on Maria Bartiromo show. Facebook is the no. 1 app for setting up these demonstrations. Parler has no grouping or event management capability.

Howard म्हणाले...

Also... Your own Trump supporter people here on Althouse are telling you that. Imagine what the gen pop is saying.

YoungHegelian म्हणाले...

@Amadeus,

His role is purely ministerial. Read Pence's letter. He said that the objections should be debated in accordance with the statute, and they were.

What are you saying then, A? That Trump & his supporters had some idea of something that Pence could do to aid their cause that he was not institutionally capable of doing, and they misunderstood the situation? That may be true, but it makes the Trump team seem conveniently constitutionally stoopid, doesn't it?

No, Trump & his team felt that Pence stabbed them in the back. What were those expectations that Trump & his team had? I don't know, and I doubt you do either, because it's not like Trump's views have gotten a lot of air since Wednesday, even on right-wing media.

As Mike K. points out above on Indiana's RFRA, it's not like Pence hasn't been known to fold under pressure. Did he fold in some fashion on Wednesday? That's a good question.

hombre म्हणाले...

Blogger Ajnal said...
“why did they bring zipties to a protest?”

If they were not Antifa, the zip ties were for attacking Antifa. If they were Antifa, the zip ties were for defending non-Antifa.

Rusty म्हणाले...

Blogger DarigoldVanilla said...
"Pearl Harbor Attack as interpreted by Trump and his MAGAt army:
-
2,335 American soldiers and sailors dead. Probably Willkie supporters. Better to play it down. Japan is just going to go away, like a miracle. Hawaii isn't even a state."
OK. Now do the holocaust.

Leland म्हणाले...

Pearl Harbor Attack as interpreted by Trump and his MAGAt army:

Typical projection. You make the claim that never happened, because you wish it were so very true they would be that absurd and unhinged, but they are not. Instead, the BLM riots actually were compared to the D-Day invasion with many journalist referring to US Army soldiers rushing the beach as members of Antifa, a WWII Russian organization.

love johnson म्हणाले...

Why is the WaPo assuming that just because a person has white skin and a penis, they are a white person and a male? In today's woke America, they could "identity" as a Black woman, therefore the vast majority of the "rioters " could have been Black women. You know what happens when you make assumptions.

Amadeus 48 म्हणाले...

To all you cat-callers out there:

If Trump and people like him want to win future elections, they might try to figure out how to win a majority of electoral votes without the use of levitation.

Do you really think it was a power move to go to the Capitol to "Stop the Steal"?

Also, when you release the Kraken, make sure there is a Kraken to release. Giuliani's team looked like they were doing a fan dance every time they got in front of a judge (Well, your honor it's there, you just can't see it. It was there a minute ago. Just wait...).

We are all frustrated by the last two months (or maybe ten months), but we have to look forward to figure out how minimize the damage of Biden/Pelosi/Schumer and how to beat those ridiculous governors in 2022 (Cuomo, Newsome, Pritzker, Whitmer, etc.).

Rabel म्हणाले...

Looking at the event form the other side:

It's possible that the multiple plainclothesmen who posed behind a barricade with handguns out and pointed at the door of one of the main chambers (while protesters roamed around the gallery of that same chamber immediately behind them), and the plainclothesman who shot Ashli Babbitt, and other plainclothesmen unseen in photos and videos were given specific "shoot-to-kill-on-breach" orders and stationed at particular locations.

Those would have been illegal orders if they did not require the usual threat requirements for use of deadly force.

Who were those plainclothesmen, what was their organization, who were their commanders, and what orders were they given.

DarigoldVanilla म्हणाले...

Now do the Holocaust.

I think that the MAGAts at the riot already addresses this with their messaging:

- 6 million were not enough

- Camp Auschwitz

MountainMan म्हणाले...

A few things that are missing in a lot of this conversation:

1. We have not heard much more about the two bombs that were found at the DNC and RNC buildings. This is not something that would be typical of Trump supporters. Why so much silence on this?
2. Scott Adams and others have faulted Trump for not being more cognizant that something like this could happen. But wouldn't it be the job of the Secret Service or the FBI to be monitoring Facebook, Twitter, or other social media to see what was coming? Certainly some of this was planned. Where are they, especially the FBI? I just don't seem to hear anything about it.
3. Why was Mayor Bowser and the Capitol Police so lax about this? Was it because there were no indications that anything would happen, particularly since Trump rallies have been generally peaceful with any disturbances usually coming from non-Trump groups who are present? Why were some of the Capitol Police as seen in several videos willing to just stand by, or even help, some of these protesters to enter the building, while at some places there appeared to be violence and attacks on the police?
4. Why the rush to impeachment? Why no calls for an investigation? It seems there needs to be a Congressional investigation, identify events, locations, timelines, etc. Have heard no calls for that.
5. And finally, the elephant in the room: what might China's role be in all this? Could they be the source of the bombs? Could they have put provocateurs in the crowd to stir this up? They have a lot of enmity for Trump and want him gone, permanently. Supposedly they are doing cartwheels in Beijing and using this an example of the failure of American democracy and why their single party totalitarian system is better. And the incoming administration and their big tech oligarch supporters are in China's pocket.

I am not usually a conspiracy theorist but there are just too many things about the whole election and subsequent events that are very disturbing.

Amadeus 48 म्हणाले...

Yes, Trump's team was Constitutionally stoopid. But they were at the end of their rope. They weren't realistic at all. And they didn't give any weight to what the 75-80 million Americans that voted for Biden might think, feel, and do if the apparent popular and electoral vote were reversed and victory awarded to Trump without any actual showing of stolen, invented, or miscounted votes by a preponderance of evidence. Team Trump featured speculation rather than proof in all their court filings.

Mike (MJB Wolf) म्हणाले...

DarigoldVanilla said...
1 Ashli, the AF veteran murdered by a Capital Hill Policeman

That’s a boldface lie, You incredibly obedient tool.
Thug was killed as she was breaching the inner chamber of the citidel of our democracy.


That is certainly the D C-media talking point from the fascists in charge but is easily refuted by watching the video. Interesting to me that neither she nor the policeman who shot Ashli are even in the room in question. The cop extends his arm into the hall from one side and she is standing looking in a door opposite, with at least three capitol cops in riot gear right behind her. The cop at left shoots her through the door she was standing at. She was not armed. She was not threatening anyone. In fact she was within the grasp of cops if they wanted to arrest her. This is a very disturbing story but the penchant for the left (and mysterious commenters suddenly appearing here) to lie about and propagandize the death of a protester who appears to have been unjustifiably killed is even more disturbing. Very disturbing.

And not at all surprising. I’m glad I watched the video before big tech started hiding it. That conspiracy to DEPRIVE the public of actual news is the sign of a very desperate Democrat party. I thought they just “won” everything. Why do they act like cornered losers?

Temujin म्हणाले...

Howard, I can understand people taking opposite views in politics, or foreign policy, economics, etc. But freedom seems a topic we could all get on the same plot of ground over. I'm astounded, but not surprised, how far the left in this country, and all of Western Civilization seems uncaring at all about the removal of freedom of speech for those who have opposing thoughts. Not to mention, outright and obvious censorship and/or pushing fictionalized stories. It's one thing to discuss election fraud- did it or did it not happen. It's another thing entirely to remove any mention of Hunter Biden's laptop, to dismiss it. Or to pile on about an obviously fraudulent Russia Collusion hoax for 3 full years. Or, as in the past few days, the removal of Parler and conservatives from any social media with no recourse.

The loss of truth and the loss of freedom of speech should weight mightily on the souls of those on the left who have always portrayed themselves as the protectors of free speech. But, maybe in reality they're not the protectors of free speech, but the destroyers of it? Could that be? Well...yes. There's a long history of it.

Howard, could it be that you're the baddies after all? Are we the baddies?

Michael K म्हणाले...

Blogger Skippy Tisdale said...
I'm not certain of the source but...


Babylon Bee, our only source of true news.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

As others have pointed out, the riots and looting this summer were organized on Facebook and the internet.

Is the FBI so thoroughly corrupt that they decided to not investigate who was organizing these events. If so then we are done.

Has anyone heard of any high-level prosecution? Crickets.

Trump's biggest mistake was not calling out the national guard in every city being burned. I don't care what the governors wanted.

Michael K म्हणाले...

Team Trump featured speculation rather than proof in all their court filings.

From what I understand (and the lefty trolls will disagree), the courts all declined to hear any evidence. Maybe that was on the basis of insisting there was no judicial role or, as in Penn, they were in on the grift. Even the refusal by the Roberts court to hear the Texas case is inexplicable except as a political judgement not to get involved. What Trump needed was "The Scarlet Pimpernel," but they are rare.

Michael K म्हणाले...

Is the FBI so thoroughly corrupt that they decided to not investigate who was organizing these events. If so then we are done.

Yes, next question. My FBI daughter is now a hard left partisan. They are the new Stasi.

Rabel म्हणाले...

"Thug was killed as she was breaching the inner chamber of the citidel of our democracy."

Which, without a clear threat of harm, would be murder by definition.

They weren't guarding the wire at Khe Sanh.

Where is AllenS. Is he OK.

NorthOfTheOneOhOne म्हणाले...

MountainMan said...

CEO of Parler said this yesterday morning on Maria Bartiromo show. Facebook is the no. 1 app for setting up these demonstrations. Parler has no grouping or event management capability.

I'm starting to believe that the Parler deplatforming is more about eliminating competition than anything else.

Witness म्हणाले...

"Was there a plan? If it was "spontaneous and ad-hoc" then maybe it was not a plan, just diverse individuals whose paths flowed together at that place and time?"

A more relevant question to ask of people wearing "Civil War - January 6, 2021" shirts isn't whether they had a plan per se, but maybe whether they had a premeditated intent.

YoungHegelian म्हणाले...

@Witness,

A more relevant question to ask of people wearing "Civil War - January 6, 2021" shirts isn't whether they had a plan per se, but maybe whether they had a premeditated intent.

You mean, as opposed to "No Justice, No Peace!".

DarigoldVanilla म्हणाले...

MJB Wolf
If that domestic terrorist had not been stopped, the rest of the mob would have kept surging forward and possibly killed even more people.
Cute that you think me being a new commenter makes me incorrect.
What makes your narrative wrong, is it’s incorrect assertions and obvious propaganda talking points. Maybe stop trying to turn this delusional QAnon militant into a martyr.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

"I'm starting to believe that the Parler deplatforming is more about eliminating competition than anything else."

Censorship and eliminating the competition...

Why not both?

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

"If that domestic terrorist had not been stopped, the rest of the mob would have kept surging forward and possibly killed even more people."

The only way that your thinking is plausible, is if you will freely admit that the tens of thousands of summertime rioters and looters and murderers are also 'domestic terrorists.'

By that thinking, the cops should have shot one or two rioters outside the Minneapolis Target store to stop the looting.

And the shootings should have been repeated in every neighborhood and in every city.

Is that your argument?

Try selling that to your fellow progs.

Readering म्हणाले...

Pence was a coward for taking so long to make it clear that he was not going to unilaterally reject the electoral votes from the states selected by Trump in order to prevent Biden/Harris from getting to 270. He allowed the WH to put out a statement denying news reports days earlier that he was privately saying he would not do that. Knowing Trump as he does, how did he think Trump would back down on his own from his interpretation, supported as it was by the execrable John Eastman and others, and by the Gohmert lawsuit (which Eastman was too cowardly to sign)?

Michael K म्हणाले...

supported as it was by the execrable John Eastman and others, and by the Gohmert lawsuit (which Eastman was too cowardly to sign)?

Eastman was Dean of a law school. Too bad you didn't attend one.

Achilles म्हणाले...

Howard said...
Good morning, Achilles. I have zipties snapties and cable ties in every tool bag too. Velcro gets all the press, but zipties are indispensable. I'm against the deplatform cancel culture. It's a mistake. I believe that allowing foolish people to announce it to the world is the best way to defeat their ideas.

You people need to finesse the situation and capitalize on this mistake. However, many people here say that taking the bait and throwing a tantrum is the path to succeed. So far, I'd say the post election Republican base behavior has lost you any chance advancing in 2022.

Quit digging.


Like I said.

You are a fascist seeking justification for acting like a fascist.

gadfly म्हणाले...

Althouse: "There's nothing here about a plan to break into the Capitol! That doesn't mean there weren't people with such a plan . . ."

Well, WaPo can be wrong but other sources cite Parler posts that are no longer available unless an archive site still exists. Then there are stories of verified entry into the capital through unlocked doors - in one case by an armed, zip-tie carrying nutcase who was arrested in Nashville. Add in the QAnon U.S. Rep from GA who posted instructions on how to find Nancy Pelosi's office. The morning of Jan 6 began with Rep. Mo Brooks (R-AL) screaming like a maniac at a Trump rally, telling people it was time to “kick ass.” That was followed by Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani clearly calling for a “trial by combat.”

After WWII, Nazis could not get off the hook by claiming no knowledge of Hitler's crimes and no killing of Jews. The people who traveled to Washington at Trump's behest did so because they believed his lies about the election. Believing Trump is a difficult concept to those who know he lies but knowing he lies, and still following his coup instructions runs way past the rule of law.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Anybody else remember when Andrew Breitbart would insist politics follows culture - not the other way around? Because, if you do, you're doing it wrong.

You're arguing about Trump (politics - five years) as though he's been a greater influence on events than Oprah (culture - 30+ years) when - by far - you every reason to trust her less than him, to investigate her role in politics, and to suspect she did something crooked:

Her whole career has been dedicated to the promotion of fraud - as a" journalist" - and everyone knows it.

Achilles म्हणाले...

Blogger Amadeus 48 said...
To all you cat-callers out there:

If Trump and people like him want to win future elections, they might try to figure out how to win a majority of electoral votes without the use of levitation.


So the same people that lied about Trump colluding with Russia for 5 years are telling you that they just have to ban all discussion of election fraud and anyone who supports Trump to protect the truth.

And you are sucking it up like a good German.

Readering म्हणाले...

That's why Eastman is execrable. (Not a very good law school.)

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Can anyone who's against Trump explain where Obama fits in Oprah's menagerie of charlatans?

And - if they know it's a menagerie of charlatans (who rape and kill and rip-off people) but they claim Obama's different and a good guy - why doesn't he do anything about THAT?

Clear answers, please. My head already hurts.

Mike of Snoqualmie म्हणाले...

“Treason doth never prosper: what ’s the reason?
Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”

John Harrington

Democrats are trying to create an environment where none dare criticize them. Not going to work.

Francisco D म्हणाले...

Michael K said... Yes, next question. My FBI daughter is now a hard left partisan. They are the new Stasi.

Is she hoping for a big inheritance? Otherwise she might report you for sedition.

Inga म्हणाले...

“Btw, what is it like for you, personally, to willingly debase yourself and revel in being part of the progressive hive-mind?

I can't imagine having so much self-loathing.

Thank God I'll never know.”

Oh but you do know. You are part of the Trumpist Mass Delusion. How much self delusion does it take to become part of the mass delusion?

Inga म्हणाले...

“Michael K said... Yes, next question. My FBI daughter is now a hard left partisan. They are the new Stasi.”

Nice dad.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Can anyone who's against Trump explain where Obama fits in Oprah's menagerie of charlatans?

And - if they know it's a menagerie of charlatans (who rape and kill and rip-off people) but they claim Obama's different and a good guy - why doesn't he do anything about THE REST OF THEM?

Mike (MJB Wolf) म्हणाले...

LOLGF butterhead

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Maybe that's too hard. Let's try again:

If you're a progressive, and down for black civil rights, why would you replace Trump - who was freeing wrongly imprisoned blacks with Kim Kardashian - for Joe Biden, who wrote the 19994 Crime Bill that wrongly imprisoned millions of blacks for 26 years?

I'm black - explain it to me.

Inga म्हणाले...

“Stop the Steal”. Even the name of this movement suggests action. How did they plan on stopping what was happening in the Capitol? By standing there waving Trump flags? Why did Trump tell them to March down to the Capitol and even that he would be with them?

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Maybe that's too hard. Let's try again:

If you're a progressive, and down for black civil rights, explain why OBAMA would replace Trump - who was freeing wrongly imprisoned blacks with Kim Kardashian - for Joe Biden, who wrote the 19994 Crime Bill that wrongly imprisoned millions of blacks for 26 years?

I'm still black - explain it to me.

Readering म्हणाले...

Not a good faith question.

Readering म्हणाले...

Trump trying to get votes. Still a racist.

Readering म्हणाले...

Biden reacting to crime epidemic now long over.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Maybe that's too hard. Let's try again:

If you're a progressive, and down for women's rights, explain how OBAMA can know there are four extremely credible rape claims against Bill Clinton - all former members of the Democrat Party - but even he didn't say anything when Bill was asked to speak on integrity, at Joe Biden's DNC nomination.

No one took offense in the slightest - explain your standards for American leadership, or something.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

"Oh but you do know. You are part of the Trumpist Mass Delusion. How much self delusion does it take to become part of the mass delusion?"

For the last time...it is NOT ABOUT TRUMP.

No sane person is kissing his ass the way Clinton and Obama had their asses worn out by you people.

It is what he represents...the effort to prevent America from sliding so far left into socialism and fascism that there will be no way back.

But that's a feature to you so you don't understand.

Leland म्हणाले...

“Stop the Steal”. Even the name of this movement suggests action.

So when someone says "stop", that's when you act? These words you use don't mean what you think they mean.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

"Is she hoping for a big inheritance?"

No. But I bet she's hoping for a big promotion.

That's what happens in organizations that have a political tilt at the top.

If you want to get ahead you've got to go with the flow.

That's what happened when Obama's independent generals got fired, and the weak ones let him cut their balls off.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Readering said...

"Trump trying to get votes. Still a racist."

Not answering the questions. They're too hard. Let's try again:

If you're a progressive, and in the fight against racism, explain how you're in the party of Bill Clinton, who had a mentally-disabled black man killed, Ricky Ray Rector, just so he'd look soft on crime - AND the party of Ed Buck, who killed multiple black men during this election cycle.

Please use small words, as I'm kinda slow.

Owen म्हणाले...

Michael K 2 12:28: "...the new Stasi." As a dad, that must be hard to take. Sympathies here.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

"Oh but you do know. You are part of the Trumpist Mass Delusion. How much self delusion does it take to become part of the mass delusion?"

For the last time...it is NOT ABOUT TRUMP.

No sane person is kissing his ass the way Clinton and Obama had their asses worn out by you people.

It is what he represents...the effort to prevent America from sliding so far left into socialism and fascism that there will be no way back.

But that's a feature to you so you don't understand.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Bill Clinton had a mentally-disabled Ricky Ray Rector killed just so he WOULDN'T look soft on crime

Inga म्हणाले...

“So when someone says "stop", that's when you act? These words you use don't mean what you think they mean.”

Who was supposed to do the “stopping”? Were the Trumpists supposed to stop the steal? Were Democrats supposed to stop the steal? Democrats don’t believe there was a steal, so how or why would they be tasked to stop a fantasy? So are you implying because the word stop is being used in this movement, everything will just stop all by itself?

I think you’re confusing yourself, or attempting to obfuscate.

Jim at म्हणाले...

The media coverage of this thing is so over-the-top, I've simply turned it all off.

They truly are the enemy of one half of the country.

Leland म्हणाले...

For the last time...it is NOT ABOUT TRUMP.

Indeed. The person that came in second to Trump in the 2016 Republican primary was described as Joseph Goebbels by the President elect, and now other Democrats are demanding that person resign from their democratically elected position that ends the same time as Biden's.

TeaBagHag म्हणाले...

No sane person is kissing his ass the way Clinton and Obama had their asses worn out by you people.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's why there was so much Clinton and Obama merch and waving flags with their name(that was made in China) during their terms.

Try again, zombie cultist.

Leland म्हणाले...

Who was supposed to do the “stopping”? Were the Trumpists supposed to stop the steal? Were Democrats supposed to stop the steal? Democrats don’t believe there was a steal, so how or why would they be tasked to stop a fantasy? So are you implying because the word stop is being used in this movement, everything will just stop all by itself?

Good questions. Perhaps Congress could have spent 10 days investigating those answers. They spent 3 years attempting to stop Russia collusion that didn't happen, except for a few ad buys on Facebook by a Russian firm supporting BLM.

Amadeus 48 म्हणाले...

"From what I understand (and the lefty trolls will disagree), the courts all declined to hear any evidence. Maybe that was on the basis of insisting there was no judicial role or, as in Penn, they were in on the grift. Even the refusal by the Roberts court to hear the Texas case is inexplicable except as a political judgement not to get involved. What Trump needed was "The Scarlet Pimpernel," but they are rare."

I don't think that is a complete description of the proceedings. Team Trump was invited on several occasions in different venues to present evidence in preliminary proceedings and legislative hearings of actual voter fraud or manipulation and declined to do so. Ultimately, they came forward in various venues (including legislative hearings) with some examples of mishandled or nonconforming ballots, votes that could be challenged based on residency questions, and so forth. The whole Dominion issue was comparable to the Diebold kerfuffle that the Kerry campaign foisted on the public in 2004. There was a lot of "could have" and very little "did".

Do I think there were lots of shenanigans by Democrats in this election? Yes. What made a difference? The way the rules were manipulated to allow mailed-in votes of unknown provenance into the system. Voter ID verification collapsed. Nobody knows who voted in this election. But in the time allowed, how can we sort it out? Whose votes get thrown out?

Also, Biden led in all the polling. Should anyone be surprised that he won?

I detest Joe Biden. I can't imagine why anyone who has been paying attention would vote for him. I am stunned that the voters in GA put those two numbskulls (or worse) in the Senate. But for Trump to say the GOP legislatures in AZ, PA, MI, WI, and GA purposely worked to frustrate him in those states is ridiculous. There is no there there. Remember when Brian Kemp was the worst mass murderer in history because he reopened GA as Trump encouraged him to do? Yeah, that's a guy that was out to get Trump.

The fact is that in his chagrin at losing an election that he could have won, DJT has lashed out at everyone that didn't do what he wanted. Bill Barr, Mike Pence, local politicians in GA, Tom Cotton, etc. all got the "You traitor! You let me down!" treatment from Trump.

I'll tell you who has let his supporters down: Donald J. Trump.

Bilwick म्हणाले...

Inga the State's Handmaid would like "Stop the Steal!" replaced by "Tread on me! PLEASE, master-- tread on me hard!"

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Inga said...

"Who was supposed to do the “stopping”?"

Honest Americans.

"Were the Trumpists supposed to stop the steal?"

If possible.

"Were Democrats supposed to stop the steal?"

If possible.

"Democrats don’t believe there was a steal, so how or why would they be tasked to stop a fantasy?"


They're being disingenuous and everyone knows it. Tell me, what was the punishment dished out for this by the Democrat Party?

"So are you implying because the word stop is being used in this movement, everything will just stop all by itself?"

No.

"I think you’re confusing yourself, or attempting to obfuscate."

I think a party that's lied about Russian collusion and the President being a traitor for four years, and gave a media charlatan like Oprah the Presidential medal of Freedom after 30 years of confusing liberals on almost everything, and has stolen elections before, without punishment and is alway trying to capitalize on it - and only confessed to stealing elections after there was a mass killing of some kind - well, THEY'RE PLAYING WITH FIRE.

But that's just me. And I'm DEPLORABLE.

Inga म्हणाले...

“Good questions. Perhaps Congress could have spent 10 days investigating those answers.”

Did the storming of the Capitol force Congress to do the investigations that you’re calling for? What did they think they would accomplish? If there had been credible proof that the election was stolen, it would have been used by Trump’s lawyers instead of the laughable cast of characters and weak arguments about election laws that were used and dismissed.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Inga said...

"Democrats don’t believe there was a steal, so how or why would they be tasked to stop a fantasy?"

"If there had been credible proof that the election was stolen, it would have been used by Trump’s lawyers instead of the laughable cast of characters and weak arguments about election laws that were used and dismissed."

I like how liberals speak of others making "fantasies" when everyone knows they're living in one. They seriously believe that, because there's no evidence where Trump is looking, that means there was no crime? And - good solid Americans they are - they ain't got to find one, if there was one, somewhere else?

I will no longer expect a "loyal opposition" from anyone on their side again.

Inga म्हणाले...

Also how many times did the Republican leadership of Georgia recount, do the requested audits of signatures? Do Trumpists seriously think these Republicans were all of a sudden part of some vast conspiracy? Were Trump appointed judges and known conservative USSC and State Justices all part of the vast conspiracy to steal the election away from Trump? Don’t you see how crazy this makes Trumpists look? Your arguments are weak, based on conspiracy theory and amplified into a roar of nuttery by Trump himself. The images of the rampaging Trumpists inside the Capitol will forever be Trump’s and his followers legacy.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

"Try again, zombie cultist."

Your name is appropriate.

Neither one of the aforementioned cocksuckers is president. Why would there be merchandise?

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Inga will almost always talk to me, and back me up when the racial heat gets too hot, but - when she's off on the wrong foot - she'll ignore me like any racist here.

THAT'S how racism "works" too.

The truth needs your assistance, Inga.

TeaBagHag म्हणाले...

Neither one of the aforementioned cocksuckers is president. Why would there be merchandise?

During their term, numbnuts.

trumpintroublenow म्हणाले...

Persons 1-5 carefully plan the capture, trial and execution of Nancy Pelosi. A key part of the plan is to have 200 dimwit deplorables run around the Capitol causing havoc to provide them cover and keep the police busy. None of the 200 know of the plan. That is part of the plan.

Laslo Spatula म्हणाले...

"But that's just me. And I'm DEPLORABLE."

Great track.

I am Laslo.

Inga म्हणाले...

“Inga will almost always talk to me, and back me up when the racial heat gets too hot, but - when she's off on the wrong foot - she'll ignore me like any racist here.”

Crack, I’m not interested in getting into a debate. I really just want to state my opinion and I support you expressing yours and others here expressing theirs. Debating here has lost any meaning, you should know that better than anyone here.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Inga said...

"Crack, I’m not interested in getting into a debate."

Interesting. But you're talking - here - where we regularly debate. You especially. I lurk more, but you're sparring. What's changed?

"I really just want to state my opinion and I support you expressing yours and others here expressing theirs."

But what if you're wrong? And why do you WANT to subject others to an, even potentionally wrong opinion - and demand we not respond in a salon - right to our faces? Isn't that being rude on top of a nice display of narcissism, we're expected to sit back and admire?

"Debating here has lost any meaning, you should know that better than anyone here."

If I did I wouldn't be here, so you're wrong there, too: you're doing it wrong.

Why don't you try answering my easy questions?

They might help you get to some real answers, instead of just throwing out questions at random, like a crazy Jazz drummer drops bombs.

Come on. I'm still your buddy.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

"she'll ignore me like any racist here."

It's disappointing that an intelligent person like you keeps throwing around the word 'racism.'

You seem to use it as a crutch to explain away the difficulties in your life.

It might explain some of them, but it seems to be a catch-all.

Honest to God...99.99 percent of Americans don't care what you look like.

That leaves 847 mostly democrat Klan members in a swamp somewhere in Florida.

Don't go there and you'll be fine.

Inga म्हणाले...

“And why do you WANT to subject others to an, even potentionally wrong opinion - and demand we not respond in a salon - right to our faces?”

I’m not demanding anyone not respond. What I’m saying is that I don’t need to engage in debate. I actually try NOT to respond to the responses. It’s futile and it wastes my time. I’m only responding to you in this fashion because I respect you.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Joe Smith said...

"It might explain some of them"

[rolls eyes]

I'm also an atheist, and - in case you haven't heard - religion poisons EVERYTHING, so that should cover whatever's left over, to your satisfaction, if you need a catalogue of my despair.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Inga said...

"I’m only responding to you in this fashion because I respect you."

If you respected me, you'd answer my direct questions:

How can a progressive, who supports black civil rights, get rid of Trump - who was releasing wrongly imprisoned blacks with Kim Kardashain's help - and replace him with the author of the 1994 Crime Bill that wrongly put millions of blacks in prison for 26 YEARS?

Rabel म्हणाले...

Amadeus 48 said...

"Also, Biden led in all the polling. Should anyone be surprised that he won?"

Good one. Sarcasm with a light touch.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Amadeus 48 said...

"Also, Biden led in all the polling. Should anyone be surprised that he won?"

Biden ran for President three previous times. Never got above 4%.

Yet he won while Trump increased his margins with minorities.

Give me a break.

Fernandinande म्हणाले...

"Most are men, yet about one in six were women..."

2 grammar mistakes there.


Sentence fragment.

It needs to be "one in six was a woman" to get subject/verb agreement,

A "one in X" construction can be either singular or plural; your correction sounded wrong so I looked it up: "about one in six were women" is correct.

Readering म्हणाले...

Idiotic response TCE.

Readering म्हणाले...

You think he stole the nomination?

Readering म्हणाले...

Don't really understand repeatedly making accusations of racism in comments. Many folks who express hatred for me here profess to be unable to get my sex straight. But as I write many times, who cares, it could all be dogs on the internet.

RichAndSceptical म्हणाले...

This article is a must-read. It confirms what many of the people at the demonstration said happened. https://thenationalpulse.com/breaking/ex-capitol-police-chief-says-pelosi-mcconnells-sergeants-at-arms-refused-security-measures-while-new-timeline-proves-trump-incitement-claims-bogus/

I believe it was a combination of outsiders (Antifa), acting as instigators, plus some Trump supporters who breached the Capitol and committed the violence. Several hundred Trump supporters arrived at the Capitol to find the door open and no security to keep anyone out. They went in and walked around, not even realizing what was happening in a different part of the building.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Readering said...

"You think he stole the nomination?"

Of course I don't think he stole the nomination: Get rid of Jimmy Carter and he's the only other member of the party, without semen on his outfits, left.

And having Bill Clinton vouch for his integrity at the DNC - when Bill's credibility accused of raping four Democrat women who, you know, have to sit and watch this whole gaudy spectacle play out on international television, not just for the rest of their lives, but for all of history - because progressives care about women so much. And they don't want to see Hillary sad - after she gleefully harassed and lied on every one of them after Bill raped them. It's been investigated by MSNBC and Ronin Farrow and found to be true. The Democrats say nothing, on that, but continue to lecture on anything else, as a smokescreen.

Just like with Jonestown, once it's all over, I can't imagine how you're going to live with yourselves.

Readering म्हणाले...

Lacking imagination.

Bilwick म्हणाले...

It always pays to expand one's vocabulary, and I just learned a new word that's apparently been around for a while. It seems like an apt label for people like Inga, Howard and the rest of the servile tribe: "statheist."

Iman म्हणाले...

Shorter Howard: “It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again.”

Iman म्हणाले...

Please answer Crack’s question, Inga.

Marcus Bressler म्हणाले...

My FWB's parents are from Guyana and she was telling me about the poverty there and how her parents were fortunate to get out and build a life of prosperity here in America. So Howard, I won't be fleeing to Georgetown there even for a vacation. There is enough kool-aid available to drink here.

THEOLDMAN

Big Mike म्हणाले...

There was an article in Buzzfeed, of all places, that as far as I am concerned proved that the Capitol assault was led by Antifa members. Here is the money quote:

“I got called a [n-word] 15 times today,” the veteran officer shouted in the Rotunda to no one in particular. “Trump did this and we got all of these fucking people in our department that voted for him. How the fuck can you support him?”

“I cried for about 15 minutes and I just let it out.”


What does this tell me? It tells me that the crowd was riddled with fake Republicans. Remember fake Republican Chuck (capital 'C') commenting on Dr. Ben Carson as Secretary of HUD? I cannot say that absolutely no Trump supporters are racists that feel free to use the 'n-word' in public, but on the whole there are few racists among people who run small businesses and must therefore deal with black customers, nor among people who work for a living and have been dealing with black bosses, working alongside black co-workers, directing black subordinates, and living next door to black neighbors. On the other hand, most liberal Democrats fervently believe, as the black police officer does, that every Republican is a hard core racist and therefore willing to use the 'n-word' at any time and in any environment. It wouldn't surprise me if Althouse herself believes that -- she does let her milieu tell her what to think and when to think it more often than a woman with her brains should permit.

No, take it from me. 'n-word' means fake Republican.

Readering म्हणाले...

Trumpists.

«सर्वात जुने ‹थोडे जुने   312 पैकी 201 – 312   नवीन› नवीनतम»