"The First Lady and I have come to express the everlasting love and loyalty of 327 million Americans." pic.twitter.com/suJpBU8yux
— The White House (@WhiteHouse) November 11, 2019
११ नोव्हेंबर, २०१९
"Everlasting love" to every veteran.
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२०७ टिप्पण्या:
207 पैकी 1 – 200 नवीन› नवीनतम»327 million and one. Why did Trump leave me out?
It's nice every once and a while to have a president who likes and respects those who serve in the military.
Happy Veteran's Day Gents! Lotta Vets in the Commentariat. Any female Vets? - We love you too!
Happy Remembrance Day.
And remember USS Enterprise Air Group Commander McCluskey who told his 33 Dauntless Dive Bomber pilots to follow him and turn left. They have made a whole movie about that moment.
And the USN code breakers led by Lcdr Rochefort
I hope that new movie, Midway, is good.
The 1976 version with Charlton Heston and Henry Fonda may seem a little dated, but it was good too.
In Flanders Fields
BY JOHN MCCRAE
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
This weekend I saw a trailer and director interview for 1917 at my multiplex. Looking forward to going.
Carentan O Carentan
BY LOUIS SIMPSON
Trees in the old days used to stand
And shape a shady lane
Where lovers wandered hand in hand
Who came from Carentan.
This was the shining green canal
Where we came two by two
Walking at combat-interval.
Such trees we never knew.
The day was early June, the ground
Was soft and bright with dew.
Far away the guns did sound,
But here the sky was blue.
The sky was blue, but there a smoke
Hung still above the sea
Where the ships together spoke
To towns we could not see.
Could you have seen us through a glass
You would have said a walk
Of farmers out to turn the grass,
Each with his own hay-fork.
The watchers in their leopard suits
Waited till it was time,
And aimed between the belt and boot
And let the barrel climb.
I must lie down at once, there is
A hammer at my knee.
And call it death or cowardice,
Don’t count again on me.
Everything’s all right, Mother,
Everyone gets the same
At one time or another.
It’s all in the game.
I never strolled, nor ever shall,
Down such a leafy lane.
I never drank in a canal,
Nor ever shall again.
There is a whistling in the leaves
And it is not the wind,
The twigs are falling from the knives
That cut men to the ground.
Tell me, Master-Sergeant,
The way to turn and shoot.
But the Sergeant’s silent
That taught me how to do it.
O Captain, show us quickly
Our place upon the map.
But the Captain’s sickly
And taking a long nap.
Lieutenant, what’s my duty,
My place in the platoon?
He too’s a sleeping beauty,
Charmed by that strange tune.
Carentan O Carentan
Before we met with you
We never yet had lost a man
Or known what death could do.
The 2019 Midway movie follows the actual facts and uses dialogue used by the actual Military men. That makes it a great movie, not withstanding overdoing explosions. The made Nagumo seem a weak and ineffective Admiral. And the Chinese seem good allies. And the Japanese seem cruel monsters. All of which was powerful because it was true.
Together with Coral Sea Battle four weeks earlier, the big deal at Midway was not the four carriers sunk by the two American Carriers whose Air Groups found the Battle. It was our Navy fliers wiping out of most of Japan's existing expert naval Aviators. We lost half of ours, but we could ramp up to train new ones at Pensacola. And two years later, they wiped out 90% of the remaining untrained Japanese pilots and three more Japanese Carriers at the Philippine Sea/Marianas Turkey shoot. After which B-29s took off from the Marianas.
As for DJT's speech. He kept it short and simple: I am a loyal man to America's citizen warriors. And now I ask for your loyalty back in 2020 when your Godfather will need you.
Stand, don't kneel. Semper fi.
tradguy: " We lost half of ours, but we could ramp up to train new ones at Pensacola."
There were many air training bases and centers established in WW2 to train the wave after wave of new navy pilots for duty in the Pacific and joined by the incredibly fast moving navy/marine corps aircraft development programs put in place by the civilian armaments groups which gave us the F6F Hellcat, the F4U Corsair (you're welcome Major Boyington) and the Grumman Avenger.
A really cool one is the current Naval Postgraduate School location in Monterey CA. Situated with the old and converted Hotel Del Monte which has long been the Admin building for the Postgraduate School.
I am a firm believer that the turning point of the war for the Empire of Japan began on the morning of Dec 7, 1941. Short of Germany developing nuclear weapons and using them on the US there was no way in hell the Japanese had sufficient manpower and resources to actually defeat the US.
How were the Japanese going to actually invade the continental US and in order to secure the West coast to create a permanent buffer against the astonishing might of the US industrial base and manpower? And the idea of moving across the continental US to secure our food centers and then the industrial centers? Talk about fiction!
Coral Sea was the first naval warning to Japan that their expansion plans were not going to include cutting off Australia from US lines of communication. At that point, it was just a matter of time for the US to marshall sufficient forces to wear the Japanese down, build up forces along the outer rim of Japanese possessions, and slowly squeeze them to death anaconda style.
Japan's only real hope? Pearl Harbor would so dishearten the US that the "soft" Americans would give up the fight. LOL, right? But that's what the Japanese Imperial Staff, with their Bushido mentality, actually believed.
Not the first time a foreign power underestimated the American will to fight and then proceeded to make a serious strategic error.....
Took our son and DIL's girls to the local Veteran's Day remembrance ceremony. The girls are 5 and 7 years old, quite rambunctious as kids that age can be. They seemed to get the seriousness of the ceremony without having to be told. Stood with mrs. stevew and me quietly and respectfully. Of course, I have no idea what they were thinking in their young kids heads, but their behavior was gratifying.
My 18th birthday was in the summer of 1975 and so I didn't have to register for the draft; one of only two, I think, years in which that was the case. Draft dodging and general disrespect for the military was very common and popular then. My thinking at the time was in the mainstream. As I've aged I've come to respect and appreciate the members of our military. I have a greater understanding of what they do and why they do it, and am thankful that our nation has people willing to do it.
To all the vets here and everywhere, thank you for your service.
Last time I was in England a few years ago, they still blew the sirens at 11/11 11am and everybody came to a stop for the minute it went off even though it was a busy Saturday morning market in Birmingham. It was a reminder that the blitz didn't only happen in London. There were thousands killed and injured too further north. I used to stop and chat with an older veteran who stood on a busy walkway collecting for the veterans care.
readering: "This weekend I saw a trailer and director interview for 1917 at my multiplex. Looking forward to going."
It appears the plotline is going to mirror and draw out the plot device from "Gallipoli". The race against time to stop an ill-fated WW1 over the top assault into certain death.
Here's a very positive story about Rick Rescorla, a Viet Nam war hero who saved thousands of lives at WTC 9/11 Morgan Stanley office. Recently recognized posthumously by POTUS.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/02/11/the-real-heroes-are-dead.
R.I.P. Colonel Rescorla.
Everlasting love is not what I got when I returned from overseas in 1971. A lot of us got something other than that.
"Everlasting Love" was a classic song from 1974, Carl Carlton.
Where life's river flows
No one really knows
Till someone's there to show
The way to lasting love
Like the sun it shines
Endlessly it shines
You always will be mine
It's eternal love
When other loves are gone
Ours will be strong
We have our very own
Everlasting love
BTW, it appears that some significant Chinese funding helped back the making of the movie Midway and would explain why the producers were at pains to paint an especially honest portrayal of Japanese cruelty (Rape of Nanking anyone?) as well as to show the Chinese in as positive light as possible (which was not entirely untrue, admittedly).
You know what movie would get massive Chinese funding?
Remaking John Wayne's 1942 movie: "Flying Tigers" led by stud Gen Clare Chennault.
Of course, if the Chinese did financially back a remake of "Flying Tigers", they would insist the producers not include Gen Clare Chennault's high opinion and desire to support Chiang Kai-shek.
And of course, per the thread topic, President DJT will undoubtedly increase his already large advantage in active duty and veteran vote totals in 2020.
Gag me.
Vicki from Pasadena
Just for today, don't shit on the sidewalk, Vicki.
well yamamoto, told the command staff as much, based on his stint as naval attache, and his brief sojourn at Harvard, but the control group (the name of the junta) insisted on it, yamashita was another honorable officer, that mcarthur railroaded re the battle of manila,
and thank you for your service, all,
Griffin, Jeremy W.
Polschi, Ciprian-Ștefan
Ortiz, Elis A. Barreto
Ard, Dustin B.
Gonzalez, Jose J.
DeLeon-Figueroa, Luis F.
Kreischer, Brandon Jay
Nance, Michael Isaiah
Briški, Josip
Sartor, James G.
Robbins, Elliott J.
Riley, Micheal B.
Johnston, James G.
Holmes, Miguel L.
Slutman, Christopher K.A.
Hines, Benjamin S.
Hendriks, Robert A.
Collette, Joseph P.
Lindsay, Will D.
Beale, Joshua Z.
Mikeasky, Joshua
Emond, Eric Michael
Ross, Andrew Patrick
Elchin, Dylan J.
Jasso, Leandro A.S.
Taylor, Brent
Procházka, Tomáš
Slape, James A.
Sanagustin, Diobanjo S.
Bolyard, Timothy A.
Transfiguracion, Reymund Rarogal
Marcin, Martin
Benes, Kamil
Stepanek, Patrik
Celiz, Christopher Andrew
Maciel, Joseph
Conde, Gabriel D.
Golin, Mihail
Brabander, David Thomas
Cribben, Stephen B.
Sims, Jacob M.
Stoica, Madalin
Bebiashvili, Mdinari
Butler, Aaron R.
Hunter, Jonathon Michael
Harris, Christopher Michael
Kirkpatrick, Hansen B.
Baldridge, Dillon C.
Bays, William M.
Houck, Eric M.
Thomas, Cameron H.
Rodgers, Joshua P.
De Alencar, Mark R.
Boniface, Robert R.
Those are the soldiers who have died in Afghanistan since Trump became president. Fuck his "everlasting love." How about getting our young men and women out of that shithole country fighting a pointless, zombie war.
Communist focus on nationalism has led to rehabilitation somewhat of Chiang's wartime role. I have visited his wartime headquarters in Chongking.
At same time censors apparently cut any indicia of possible insubordination within US military in film (which I am meaning to see).
Vicki:
Pound Sand...
1/5 2/3 Force Troops Lejune
Isn't "327 million" the entire population of the US? I don't see that he's referring to veterans at all...what am I missing?
Tcrosse, read what J. Farmer wrote.
Ga6, eat #$%^. You and your fellow righties will be crying crocodile tears at the "injustice of it all" when the Cheeto gets voted out of office. And good riddance to him. I don't want impeachment, I want a thorough drubbing at the ballot box. More than he deserves.
Vicki from Pasadena
Those are the soldiers who have died in Afghanistan since Trump became president.
54 in almost 3 years isn't very many people, about the same number killed in training accidents.
traditionalguy said...
And remember USS Enterprise Air Group Commander McCluskey who told his 33 Dauntless Dive Bomber pilots to follow him and turn left. They have made a whole movie about that moment.
McCluskey did a hell of a job at Midway, but to me today is for remembering men like John C. Waldron and VT8.
@Fernandistein:
54 in almost 3 years isn't very many people, about the same number killed in training accidents.
Now there's a beautiful sentiment for Veteran's Day...
"Sure, your country sent you off to a war that started when you were at most a toddler because we needed you to protect a corrupt, Islamist government in Kabul and sure you got to witness your comrades getting killed and maimed and sure you got murdered yourself and sure your family and friends will be devastated, but fuck you, you could've just as easily died in a train accident."
Sickening that a willingness to throw US soldiers' lives pointlessly into a trash can is confused with patriotism.
J. Farmer said... "Sure, your country sent you off to a war that started when you were at most a toddler because we needed you to protect a corrupt, Islamist government in Kabul and sure you got to witness your comrades getting killed and maimed and sure you got murdered yourself and sure your family and friends will be devastated, but fuck you, you could've just as easily died in a train accident."
*****************
Great sentiment, if "you" were drafted.
But you weren't. "You" volunteered.
Now, will go go full-bull-goose looney and say those soldiers were fools? Isn't that your fallback? Or is that "you" were poor and dumb and uneducated, and had no choice but to join?
@wholelottasplainin':
Now, will go go full-bull-goose looney and say those soldiers were fools? Isn't that your fallback? Or is that "you" were poor and dumb and uneducated, and had no choice but to join?
Uhh...you do realize that sentiment was meant to mock Fernandistein's claim that 54 soldier deaths in Afghanistan since 2017 is no big deal?
In case that went over your heard, let me be clear. I do not fault or blame soldiers. I fault and blame the politicians that send them off to die fighting pointless, bullshit wars.
J. Farmer
How many soldiers died in Afghanistan (or anywhere) during the administrations of other presidents, who I'm sure expressed similar sentiments?
OK, you hate Trump, hate him so much your peener hurts. We get it. But laying these deaths at his feet is silly; what, you expect a president to pull out of all of our troops out of everywhere? Wrap them in plastic, maybe?
I graduated from Grosse Ile High School, on Grosse Ile, Michigan
GHW Bush learned to fly at the small Naval Air Station that used to be on the south part of the island.
It's now a small municipal airport.
Many years later, my Senior Prom was held at what used to be the Officers Club.
I tried getting into my date's panties by telling her I was shipping out tomorrow and that I could die any time.
She wasn't having it.
Patriotism ain't what it used to be.
@RMc:
How many soldiers died in Afghanistan (or anywhere) during the administrations of other presidents, who I'm sure expressed similar sentiments?
There have been two previous presidents since the Afghanistan War. The first was Bush the other was Obama. Obama stupidly ran on Afghanistan being the "good war" and massively escalated the troop presence there, something I completely opposed. Trump, on the other hand, campaigned on ending these wars, something I supported and something he has reneged on.
OK, you hate Trump, hate him so much your peener hurts. We get it. But laying these deaths at his feet is silly; what, you expect a president to pull out of all of our troops out of everywhere? Wrap them in plastic, maybe?
Try to get your head out of the cable news/talk radio partisan bubble for a second. This has nothing to do with hating Trump. This has to do with hating Trump's decision to send even more US troops into that stupid, pointless war. You speak as if withdrawing troops from Afghanistan is some kind of near-impossible, herculean task. Here's a thought: we marched in, we can just as easily march out.
Jeez, Vicki, can't you do *anything* for yourself?
@RMc:
p.s. If you think a US soldier dying to protect the government in Kabul is a noble cause, by all means make that case.
Gag me.
Vicki from Pasadena
Some comments stand the test of time. This one - on Veterans Day - most certainly will.
People far, far better than you gave their time, families, jobs, body parts, mental health - and some, their lives - just so you could shit all over them on this day, Vicki.
Says a lot about you and none of it good.
Jim
USAF
303X3
Trump, on the other hand, campaigned on ending these wars, something I supported and something he has reneged on.
If he had not reneged on Afghanistan, do you think he would still be POTUS?
Try to get your head out of the cable news/talk radio partisan bubble for a second.
Oh, please. If you knew anything about me, you'd know I avoid that sh!t like the plague. But anyone who disagrees with you is automatically wrong, right?
Hey, can you print a list of soldiers who died under Obama? No? Beacuse that wasn't the point you were trying to make, namely Orange Man Bad? (I'm certainly no fan of the guy, either, but using dead soldiers' names to make your point is an especially cynical enterprise.)
@Francisco D:
If he had not reneged on Afghanistan, do you think he would still be POTUS?
Yes
@RMc:
Oh, please. If you knew anything about me, you'd know I avoid that sh!t like the plague.
You don't have to watch it to embody its sensibilities (e.g. OK, you hate Trump)
But anyone who disagrees with you is automatically wrong, right?
Not automatically, no. You were wrong for very specific reasons, which I outlined and which you ignored.
Hey, can you print a list of soldiers who died under Obama? No?
Sure, as soon as someone invents a time machine. Barring that, I'd much prefer to focus on the person who currently occupies the office and actually has the power to do something. Similarly, I spent Obama's term blaming Obama for Obama's actions instead of blaming Bush.
Beacuse that wasn't the point you were trying to make, namely Orange Man Bad?
That wasn't the point I was trying to make, but the fact that you think it was exemplifies the "cable news/talk radio partisan bubble" I referred to earlier.
(I'm certainly no fan of the guy, either, but using dead soldiers' names to make your point is an especially cynical enterprise.)
There's no cynicism involved. The fact that US soldiers are dying in that shithole makes me want to vomit. Forgetting about Afghanistan and the American deaths that are continuing to occur there because it is politically expedient to do so is way more cynical than anything I've ever attempted.
If you think US soldiers dying to protect the government in Kabul is a worthwhile mission, by all means make that case.
Waldron did lead the VT-8 squadron to the Japanese Fleet by disobeying his orders, but it was wasted because they had been sent out to the wrong place in flying coffins that had no chance without fighters and a smoke screen, and they carried torpedoes that seldom went off even if one hit a ship. As a result they were all slaughtered for nothing.
Blogger J. Farmer said...
Sickening that a willingness to throw US soldiers' lives pointlessly into a trash can is confused with patriotism.
How about the defense of the Philippines when it was known in DC that they were indefensible?
I kind of agree with you about Afghanistan but the hysteria about the Kurds would be squared or cubed by the career military who have squandered lives there all these years. Read Dakota Myer's book for Christ's sake ! Trump has a war at home he has to win before he can undo all the damage done by the Bush/Obama military for 20 years.
My FBI daughter was over this weekend. She watches network news. She was ranting about Trump's "incompetence" this morning. I asked if 3% unemployment and 28,000 Dow Jones made any impression on her and she answered "NO."
Vicki from Pasadena could not have said it better.
Without question we should get the fuck out of Afghanistan. Right now. Also Iraq. And Syria. And Yemen. And Saudi Arabia.
Get everything out material wise possible, destroy everything else, and mebbe Drop a nuke in the Geographical center If that godforsaken land.
Not to mention making all the assholes who got us there PAY.
As a result they were all slaughtered for nothing.
No, they pulled all the zeroes down to sea level so the SBDs were able to get the job done.
Don't disrespect their sacrifice. The Navy was responsible for the torpedo fiasco., Read "Iron men and Tin Fish."
@Michael K:
How about the defense of the Philippines when it was known in DC that they were indefensible?
Or the Pentagon's acknowledgment that after 1968, our primary goal in South Vietnam was to save face.
I kind of agree with you about Afghanistan but the hysteria about the Kurds would be squared or cubed by the career military who have squandered lives there all these years.
That's precisely why we have a civilian-controlled military. If career military want to make a fuss and stomp their feet over ending a war that the US public long ago abandoned, then so be it.
I asked if 3% unemployment and 28,000 Dow Jones made any impression on her and she answered "NO."
John Derbyshire has a quote: "Wherever there is a jackboot stomping on a human face there will be a well-heeled Western liberal to explain that the face does, after all, enjoy free health care and 100 percent literacy."
There are far more fundamental things going on that cannot be captured by econometrics. It's a bit like pointing out how nice the finishings are in a house that is burning down.
But anyone who disagrees with you is automatically wrong, right?
Not automatically, no.
*snort*
You were wrong for very specific reasons, which I outlined and which you ignored.
And you ignored my question: what do you want Trump to do? Pull out all the troops? Nuke Kabul? What?
Like all lefties, you're great when it come to complaining (when Repubs are in change, that is...you stay silent when a Dem is in the White House), but not much for solutions. Meanwhile, you write out lists of dead soldiers like you actually give a damn about them. You don't. You just want to use them as a cudgel. (Not that Trump doesn't deserve a good cudgeling once in a while, but, like I said, awfully cynical.)
A guy typing on his computer on Veteran's Day is hurling insults at the President for expressing gratitude and appreciation for America's veterans and active military personnel. Because he cares more.
There are far more fundamental things going on that cannot be captured by econometrics.
So...soldiers dying somewhere, anywhere, automatically cancels out everything good? Welp, okay.
VT-8 and other torpedo planes didn't "Die in Vain" - they pulled the Japanese fighters down to a low level and opened the way for the Dive Bombers.
A guy typing on his computer on Veteran's Day is hurling insults at the President for expressing gratitude and appreciation for America's veterans and active military personnel. Because he cares more.
Shorter J. Farmer: "I care more than any of you filthy peasants! IMPEACH!!"
@RMc:
And you ignored my question: what do you want Trump to do? Pull out all the troops?
Ding ding ding ding. You got it! Exactly what I wanted Obama and Bush do. Get them out of that stupid, pointless war.
Like all lefties, you're great when it come to complaining (when Repubs are in change, that is...you stay silent when a Dem is in the White House), but not much for solutions.
Hahahahahaha...you obviously don't know shit about me or what I believe. Some friendly advice, concern yourself with things I say and actually believe, not some strawman caricature you've invented in your head.
So...soldiers dying somewhere, anywhere, automatically cancels out everything good? Welp, okay.
Wrong, again. That wasn't the point I was making.
Shorter J. Farmer: "I care more than any of you filthy peasants! IMPEACH!!"
I congratulate you on your deft ability to attack strawmen.
p.s. Just to make it clear, I am not and have never been a lefty. I'm a paleocon and an ethno-nationalist. The first vote I ever cast for president was Pat Buchanan in 2000.
They were flying obsolete planes. Douglass Devastators, that had a top speed of 206 mph and cruised at 128 mph. They carried torpedoes obsolete torpedoes that couldn't be launched at speeds over 100 knots or higher than 100 feet. By Comparison the Japanese Torpedoes could be launched at up to 1,000 feet at 200 knots.
Farmer describes the liberation of Bergen-Belsen
“Sickening that a willingness to throw US soldiers' lives pointlessly into a trash can is confused with patriotism.”
No, I am not being unfair Farmer. Your comment is directed at Trump's thanks to *all* veterans.
And you ignored my question: what do you want Trump to do? Pull out all the troops?
Ding ding ding ding. You got it! Exactly what I wanted Obama and Bush do. Get them out of that stupid, pointless war.
You must know that that's not realistic, not by any president, ever. But keep playing your "holier than thou" game. (It's amusing to the rest of us, at least.)
The first vote I ever cast for president was Pat Buchanan in 2000.
Well, then, you're just not very bright. My apologies.
Fernandistein is missing that one veteran can thank another. He is also missing that the living can thank the dead.
And he is still beating Farmer.
J. Farmer, What should President Bush have done about Afghanistan, Bin Laden, etc. after 9/11? Nothing? Deliver a stern speech? What?
@Ken B:
No, I am not being unfair Farmer. Your comment is directed at Trump's thanks to *all* veterans.
No, my comment is directed at Trump.
Fernandistein is missing that one veteran can thank another. He is also missing that the living can thank the dead. And he is still beating Farmer.
So how many US soldiers would have to die in Afghanistan this year before it was worth giving a shit about? 100? 500? 1000? 10000?
Just a note, we've been in Afghanistan since OCTOBER 2001. 1,856 Americans were KIA. Since Trump has been POTUS its been what? 50.
Frankly, I Never understood Why we were in Afghanistan in the first place?
I understood why we were OVER Afghanistan; but ground troops?
Seems like we'd be just as effective (MORE effective) at winning hearts and minds, if the 8th Air Force would be around for a few days*; and then we said:
Do NOT make us come back
a few days* You might be surprised what the 8th Air Force can do, in a few days
We only have 9,000 troops there, compared to 100,000 in 2010. BTW, most of the deaths occurred under Obama. Under Bush about 300. So, that leaves about 1,500 for Obama. Funny how all those Anti-war protests went away once the Big O took office in jan 2009.
@RMc:
You must know that that's not realistic, not by any president, ever. But keep playing your "holier than thou" game. (It's amusing to the rest of us, at least.)
It is not realistic to expect a president to end a war that they campaigned on ending? We got the troops numbers in Afghanistan down from 100,000 to 12,000, but the last 12,000 is an impossibility? Were you going around in 2016 telling people that Trump was full of shit about ending wars? And if it wasn't realistic for Trump to end the war, then why did he have to escalate it?
Well, then, you're just not very bright. My apologies.
Devastating riposte. How will I find the strength to carry on? Oh, I know, the fact that I was right about Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and Yemen. But think god our country didn't follow my stupid ass and instead relied on all of those "experts."
Farmer
I quoted your entire comment. You're going with “You quoted me out of context”?
@Enlighten-NewJersey:
J. Farmer, What should President Bush have done about Afghanistan, Bin Laden, etc. after 9/11? Nothing? Deliver a stern speech? What?
Punitive strikes against Afghanistan and special forces operations against Al Qaeda. We did not need to overthrow the Taliban. The hijackers arrived on commercial flights with visas. How is nation-building Afghanistan supposed to protect us from this problem?
If we're going to leave Afghanistan in any kind of orderly manner-removing equipment etc- and protecting the contractors that do that. It's going to take at least as long as it took to build it up. People think that the infrastructure just magically appears.
@rcocean:
We only have 9,000 troops there, compared to 100,000 in 2010. BTW, most of the deaths occurred under Obama. Under Bush about 300. So, that leaves about 1,500 for Obama. Funny how all those Anti-war protests went away once the Big O took office in jan 2009.
The current number is more like 12,000 to 13,000 with the Pentagon saying that it has plans to leave about 9,000 there indefinitely. Agree with you about Obama and said so at the time. Escalating the war was a colossally stupid decision and chosen mostly for cynical reasons. To portray Afghanistan as the "good" war and Iraq as the "bad" war. But again, it is not a defense of Trump doing something stupid to say that Obama also did something stupid.
@Ken B:
I quoted your entire comment. You're going with “You quoted me out of context”?
No, I am going with your statement had nothing to do with the point I was making. Namely, that we should withdraw from Afghanistan post haste. If you think "Bergen-Belsen" has anything to do with that argument, then I completely disagree.
@Rusty:
If we're going to leave Afghanistan in any kind of orderly manner-removing equipment etc- and protecting the contractors that do that. It's going to take at least as long as it took to build it up. People think that the infrastructure just magically appears.
Except Trump added troops to the equation. That's moving in the exact opposite direction.
In the midst of this argument about military tactics I would like to thank the veterans in my family. When you include extended family that means veterans of every war from Afghanistan back to the Revolutionary War. Only a few were killed but many came back hurting.
One great-great-grandfather served for 3 years in a combat cavalry unit of the Union Army. He came home and married but abandoned his young children after his wife died. I suspect he was overcome with grief. I did not hear this family story until I was in my 50's. Being abandoned caused the next generation much pain and trouble in their relationships.
Another, my father, was in an Army division which liberated Dachau--my father was not in the group who went into the camp but he must have talked to those who did. He never mentioned it happened. His war stories were all about minor experiences in a foreign country and more like tourist stories. I found out about Dachau by researching his unit's history on the internet after he had died. My father was never very settled in life and never found a job he really liked.
Another, my wife's brother, was special forces in Vietnam and he has never said a word about his service except that it would have been a good idea to use his seatbelt the day he almost fell out the jeep he was driving. Total silence on anything else. He's not very settled, either.
Another, my niece's husband, is 100% disabled from a IED blast. He can now walk after a few years of mostly using a wheelchair but pain meds are a part of his daily routine.
But their service has given me the USA, free from rule by Nazis and communists, and free of Islamic terrorists out to establish Sharia law. I turned 18 in 1972 and registered for the draft but they didn't even run the lottery that year. My high school class has zero war casualties. I have a lot to be thankful for.
You might be surprised what the 8th Air Force can do, in a few days
They were already in the Stone Age.
We got tickets to Disneyland when Dad came back from ferrying stuff to and from Cam Rahn and Subic. He also brought several hundred Marines back in '69. Fortunately, we were only 10 miles from Anaheim.
actually about 2,000 have been pulled out in the last few months, as the times was complaining,
This conversation (and I thank Ann for easing the "moderation") reminds me of "The perfect is the enemy of the Good."
Yes, we need to get all the troops out of Afghanistan, also out of Pakistan. We are not going to get the mountains of "stuff" that is there. Once the Pakis see that we are really leaving, we will be lucky to get all the troops out alive.
Read "Jawbreaker" by Gary Berntsen about what we were doing before the "Big Army " arrived and ordered all the SF guys to "shave and get into uniform." After that the war was lost. It reminds me of Vietnam. We had 1500 SF guys in VN who were pros and doing some good but we were never going to be able to do what Lansdale did in the Philippines. VN had a long border with Cambodia and Laos that would become a refuge for VC which is what happened,. The Philippines are islands and a refuge did not exist. The British were successful in Malaya because the Chinese were not indigenous.
Still Trump has to win his war with the Deep State before he can solve problems like Afghanistan. It does no good to keep asking "Are we there yet?" I've had children that were more patient.
actually about 2,000 have been pulled out in the last few months, as the times was complaining,
The 12,000 to 13,000 figure includes the approximately 2,000 who had been withdrawn over the course of 2019.
that's ridiculous, but then again par for the course, of course, if trodpoint/jawbreaker had continued, maybe they might have been able to get bin laden, but the teams were already in hamburg, if not south florida,
@Michael K:
Still Trump has to win his war with the Deep State before he can solve problems like Afghanistan. It does no good to keep asking "Are we there yet?" I've had children that were more patient.
Between late 2010 and early 2014, the US withdrew more than 60,000 troops from Afghanistan. By the end of 2014, the troop presence had been halved. We moved more troops in the second half of 2014 than are currently present in Afghanistan.
that's ridiculous, but then again par for the course, of course, if trodpoint/jawbreaker had continued, maybe they might have been able to get bin laden, but the teams were already in hamburg, if not south florida,
Perhaps I am confused by your terminology, but "the teams were already in hamburg, if not south florida" after Jawbreaker? Huh?
before September 11th, if we're talking preemptive actions, but the men at the 7th floor at Langley, had pretty much abandoned massoud, for one pretext or another, after another one of his men, Abdul haq was killed, there was a fallback on Karzai,
To the veterans here: thank you for your service.
@narciso:
before September 11th, if we're talking preemptive actions, but the men at the 7th floor at Langley, had pretty much abandoned massoud, for one pretext or another, after another one of his men, Abdul haq was killed, there was a fallback on Karzai,
The Jawbreaker team did not begin operating until after 9/11.
We moved more troops in the second half of 2014 than are currently present in Afghanistan.
So ? Have you noticed the frenzy over the Kurds ?
When I came back from Nam the first time there was a scruffy hippie girl who spit in my face as I was walking out of LAX airport, so I laid her out cold. Would have done the same to her boyfriend but he ran faster than cared to in a dress uniform. That wasn't you was it Vickie?
Dedicated to J. Farmer, a gormless son of a bitch who's shit don't stink:
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
Roy Lofquist:
Dedicated to J. Farmer, a gormless son of a bitch who's shit don't stink:
Sweet of you to say so. Thanks.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better...
So I take it that between 2008 and 2016, you had no criticisms of the job Barrack Obama was doing as president or the decisions he was making or the agendas he was pursuing? Now if you did have such criticisms, how useful would you find that quote as a response to those criticisms?
@Michael K:
So ? Have you noticed the frenzy over the Kurds ?
So whenever there is a "frenzy," we can expect Trump to abandon his goals and kowtow to the hysteric mob? And you're defending Trump with this claim?
traditionalguy said...
Waldron did lead the VT-8 squadron to the Japanese Fleet by disobeying his orders, but it was wasted because they had been sent out to the wrong place in flying coffins that had no chance without fighters and a smoke screen, and they carried torpedoes that seldom went off even if one hit a ship. As a result they were all slaughtered for nothing.
Waldron disobeyed orders because Stanhope Ring was a ego-maniacal boob who couldn't navigate worth a damn and was actually leading Hornet's first strike away from the Kido Butai. One torpedo hit could have drastically changed that battle. Waldron knew that, knew his duty, and knew the risks. He did what he had to do.
I don’t understand why anybody thinks we should still be there. Get out. Bomb them back completely to the Stone Age. Destroy everything, but get the fuck out.
@Michael K:
If you haven't read it, Craig Symonds' book on Midway is excellent.
Tell me this J.
PDT has expressed his wish to withdraw from Afghanistan. You support this and strenuously object to his, to date, failed attempts to do so. You invoke the memory of 54 dead in AF under his leadership.
You acknowledge, but do not give a gig for, Big Army and other political resistance. You say PDT can just say "Do it NOW!!!" and it will happen.
Ok...but...
What if a combination of Big Army intransigence and CIA/Deep State meddling...lead to the shootdown of a C-5B troop carrier with 150 souls or more on board? What if that happened a few times? What if every final flight of an evacuation led to the slaughter of the abandoned ground crews?
Or various other horribles-bases being overrun, contractors caught and butchered, inevitable local mass slaughters, valuable munitions and supplies left for the enemy.
You're like a child with this "JUST DO IT!"
And today of all days is a day you could have kept a civil tongue in your head. Why don't you write your hero Pat Buchanan and ask him to tell you what a good post you wrote and what a good job you did heaping filth on the President of the United States on Veterans Day. I'll hang up and wait.
Oh and,
Thanks Dad.
@Nichevo:
And today of all days is a day you could have kept a civil tongue in your head.
Yes, how terrible of me to use Veterans Day to point out that young American are dying in a pointless, endless war.
Why don't you write your hero Pat Buchanan and ask him to tell you what a good post you wrote and what a good job you did heaping filth on the President of the United States on Veterans Day. I'll hang up and wait.
That's where you and I differ, old friend. I actually think that leaving American service members to die in a useless war is way filthier than criticizing a president.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. As you would say, fine, never mind the personalities, now deal with my scenario.
Since I am apparently not allowed to have an opinion on such matters, I'll defer to a couple of veterans:
How Best to Thank a Veteran? Avoid More Unjust Wars
Why We Must Reclaim ‘Armistice Day’
@Nichevo:
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. As you would say, fine, never mind the personalities, now deal with my scenario.
Deal with a fanciful scenario you pulled out of your ass? Sure. My answer is: we'd have to cross that bridge when we got to it.
J. Farmer explains the merits of moderation.
This is why we can't have nice things.
Yeah, so 100, 200, 500 casualties on one day, and you'll be like, Whatever, we did it my way? You think that kind of thing is fanciful? You think people wouldn't do that to get at PDT? And never mind where blame is finally allotted, those people are dead. Plus which, many complications are possible without any such treachery.
@Nichevo:
Yeah, so 100, 200, 500 casualties on one day, and you'll be like, Whatever, we did it my way? You think that kind of thing is fanciful? You think people wouldn't do that to get at PDT
So just to recap your answer, Donald Trump really wants to withdraw troops from Afghanistan, but he won't do it because if he were to try the US Army/CIA will arrange to get hundreds of Americans killed in order to scuttle such plans? Yes, I do find that rather fanciful. But if that is true, then it doesn't matter who the president is. Is it your position that we are never leaving Afghanistan and we should just get used to it? If not, when by your reckoning will the Army/CIA permit the commander-in-chief to end that war?
So whenever there is a "frenzy," we can expect Trump to abandon his goals and kowtow to the hysteric mob? And you're defending Trump with this claim?
As I said, I have children more patient than you. The "hysteric mob" is flooding the airwaves with pure bullshit. Are you willing to see him taken down by fools to get your end?
victoria: "Gag me."
What you and your significant other(s) do in the privacy of your home is of no concern to me.
@Michael K:
As I said, I have children more patient than you. The "hysteric mob" is flooding the airwaves with pure bullshit. Are you willing to see him taken down by fools to get your end?
Newsflash, doc, the Establishment is going to scream bloody murder no matter what Trump does. The "hysteric mob" is a given. He can either kowtow to them or push through them. Getting out of Afghanistan is supported by a huge majority of the country, and Trump ran on the issue. But if he attempts to actually do it, he will be "taken down by fools?" If that is the case, that Trump cannot do something that (a) he clearly has the Constitutional authority to do and (b) is very popular with Americans, then how do you have faith that he can do anything?
Grownups understand that when you have to choose one complex thing versus another, whether it's a house, a spouse, or a president, you have to accept that not everything is exactly as you'd like, but the pluses outweigh the minuses, and you enjoy the pluses and live with the minuses. The people who bitch about Trump not being ideal in every dimension are not grownups.
Thank you to my Dad, my son, my son-in-law, my brother-in-law, two of my cousins, and three of my uncles for their service to our nation. They dodged bombs and bullets while spending what should have been some of the best years of their lives overseas. They endured desert heat, freezing cold, mud, sand, water, bugs, malaria, dysentery, meningitis, cold meals, wet sleeping bags, lack of sleep and all manner of physical and psychological abuse.
Dear God, I'm proud of them.
@James K:
The people who bitch about Trump not being ideal in every dimension are not grownups.
Except that isn't the argument. As I commented in an earlier post, you can recognize that Trump is the best available option while simultaneously understanding that the best available option is not good enough. You can win the battle and still lose the war.
the best available option is not good enough
I have no idea what that even means. "Good enough" for what? I'm sympathetic with your view that we should be out of Afghanistan, but it's not as though our presence there is going to result in the demise of the republic. "Good enough" is meaningless in this context. You take the best available option, and you celebrate that you're not stuck with the likes of Hillary or any other Democrat.
Punitive strikes against Afghanistan and special forces operations against Al Qaeda.
How are you going to support the Special Operations troops operating against Al Qaeda?
"Of course, if the Chinese did financially back a remake of "Flying Tigers", they would insist the producers not include Gen Clare Chennault's high opinion and desire to support Chiang Kai-shek."
In this day and age, a remake of "China's Little Devils" might be a monster hit... it was a big hit with me when I watched it on TV as a young kid.
@James K:
I have no idea what that even means. "Good enough" for what?
My apologies, that was confusing. I was referring to Trump's presidency in toto, not merely in regards to his Afghanistan policy.
You take the best available option, and you celebrate that you're not stuck with the likes of Hillary or any other Democrat.
Being better than "Hillary or any other Democrat" is not the same thing as being good. Based on that reasoning, one can level no criticism at Trump. It's a bit like asking if you'd rather bleed to death from a knife wound or just get shot in the head. One may entail less suffering, but they're still two bad options. Plus, that is the game the right has been playing with us for years. "Hey, we're better than the alternative, so just ignore the fact that we totally suck." Trump may be the best of bad options, but we're still getting practically unchecked illegal immigration, a million-plus legal immigrants per year, trillion-plus dollar deficits per year, and open ended commitments in places like Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia. In other words, if Trump truly is our best hope, then we're doomed.
@Jason:
How are you going to support the Special Operations troops operating against Al Qaeda?
I'll answer with a question: Is it possible to wage war against a government without the goal of overthrowing that government and assuming responsibility for putting something new in its place?
"If you haven't read it, Craig Symonds' book on Midway is excellent."
Also, "Shattered Sword" by Parshall And Tully, which focuses more the Japanese Side. If you're very interested in Naval aviation of the period, I'd recommend "The First Team" by Lundstrom which covers Coral Sea and Midway. I think John Ford's movie "The Battle of Midway" is on Youtube.
I'll answer with a question: Is it possible to wage war against a government without the goal of overthrowing that government and assuming responsibility for putting something new in its place?
History says yes.
So just to recap your answer, Donald Trump really wants to withdraw troops from Afghanistan
Yes
but he won't do it because if he were to try the US Army/CIA will arrange to get hundreds of Americans killed in order to scuttle such plans?
That's the hard form of the argument. The soft form of the argument is that extracting the troops in an orderly fashion is complicated, the apparatus is skilled at pushing back and at various unactionable forms of obstruction, and President Trump not going through these channels and cutting the Gordian knot brings any possible impacts on his own head.
Yes, I do find that rather fanciful. But if that is true, then it doesn't matter who the president is. Is it your position that we are never leaving Afghanistan and we should just get used to it?
I think we are going to get around to it. I certainly hope so, I agree with you that I am not happy that we have people there past a minimal number. I don't know that 9000 or 14000 is the right number but will you be hysterical if we have say 500 guys there? Or 100? And for this size deployment we avoid whatever parade of horribles?
If not, when by your reckoning will the Army/CIA permit the commander-in-chief to end that war?
After Donald Trump deals with the Deep State. I know there is no bigger issue for you than immigration but immigration, Foreign Wars and all the rest of it stems from the same thing, corruption and subversion of the government. First place the mask on yourself, then assist the child. There is no greater issue in this time than that elites and the bureaucracy run this country, or think they do.
you can recognize that Trump is the best available option while simultaneously understanding that the best available option is not good enough.
This constant dismissive attitude is meaningless. Words without meaning, or substance. It has a kinda, sorta, smarty sounding ring to it. None the less, it can be uttered in an almost unlimited number of situations. Is it almost always the case the A is better that B but that doesn't mean A cant be improved on.
So What? Unless you identify C, it's nothing but muttering into your soup.
Except that isn't the argument. As I commented in an earlier post, you can recognize that Trump is the best available option while simultaneously understanding that the best available option is not good enough. You can win the battle and still lose the war.
Oh yeah, I was going to comment on that earlier. Say all the EOD guys you have can do it in three minutes, and the bomb is set for 2.
EOD Trump comes along and he can do it in... About 2 minutes. Maybe 1:55, maybe 2:05. Depends.
Now, do you give him a chance? If he's going to be a few seconds over can you maybe buy him a little time by pouring liquid nitrogen on the timer? Maybe the process of EOD will itself lengthen the timer via some virtuous cycle. Better than 3 minutes, yes?
And, more importantly, having given him a chance, how do you feel about anklebiters coming up to him while he's working on the bomb and slapping him with lawsuits preventing him from cutting wires, or poking him in the head, or asking him for a match while he's busy? Or just yelling in his ear, man you suck, you can't do it?
but he won't do it because if he were to try the US Army/CIA will arrange to get hundreds of Americans killed in order to scuttle such plans?
Oh and,
If you think a Col. Vindman wouldn't do that.exact.thing, I won't waste your time or mine further.
@Nichevo:
Now, do you give him a chance?
I voted for him in 2016 and will in all probability vote for him in 2020. I can recognize that he's the best option, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or being particularly optimistic about his chances of success. I have explained over and over again why I think the long-term trends make me pessimistic about America's future, and I have always said from the beginning that I consider a Trump presidency a hail mary pass. Now, if someone wishes to counter my pessimism by explaining how the long-term trends make them optimistic, by all means do so. I am all ears. But complaining that I am either overly critical or insufficiently deferential to Trump does not do that.
@iowan2:
So What? Unless you identify C, it's nothing but muttering into your soup.
Wrong. Criticizing a condition does not require you to simultaneously offer an alternative. Questions can be vexed with no clear path forward. The Bush presidency was a failure. The fact that it was preferable to a Gore or Kerry presidency is besides the point. Every four years, the Establishment throws a couple of mutants at us, everyone acts like the fate of the world hangs in the balance, then we pick one, and business goes on as usual. Wash, rinse, repeat.
As a veteran, I absolutely feel every ounce of the everlasting love and respect of our current CIC.
That made me think of the Eighties movie. The I realized it was actually called Endless Love. A Chicago teen named David Axelrod gets to make love with a classmate played by Brooke Shields. I guess it must have been a great favorite for one aspiring young Chicago Democratic operative. They remade the movie a few years back and totally trashed the ethnic angle. Now the boy is named David Eliot. They must not have thought the Jewish-Gentile theme was compelling anymore. I don't know if they kept the Lionel Ritchie anthem in the new movie.
And if you follow me, please, we will next be discussing the 2004 film, Enduring Love ...
Anyone who has ever been a cog in a bureaucracy knows that just because a new boss comes in, that doesn't mean that that person instantly gets everything changed to what they want. It takes time to change the course of a hulking behemoth like the US military/foreign policy apparatus. People can be disappointed - and post about it incessantly - if they want to, but that's reality.
Anyone who has ever been a cog in a bureaucracy knows that just because a new boss comes in, that doesn't mean that that person instantly gets everything changed to what they want.
You're absolutely right. Fortunately no one here is making that argument. But I assume you believe there exists a realm of possibility between nothing they want and everything they want. I do, too. So given that we both acknowledge such a realm, now we are haggling about the price.
In the meantime...
How Voters Turned Virginia From Deep Red to Solid Blue
Nothing to see here folks. Move along.
“Being better than "Hillary or any other Democrat" is not the same thing as being good. Based on that reasoning, one can level no criticism at Trump.“
I never said Trump was above criticism. But claiming he’s “not good enough” implies there’s some alternative. To continue my metaphor, if you’re looking for a spouse, and you decide that he or she “isn’t good enough,” you can break it off and try to meet someone else. “Not good enough” has meaning. But we don’t have that option in choosing a president. So it’s meaningless.
Criticizing a condition does not require you to simultaneously offer an alternative.
It surely does makes you look like a fool, though, especially after lording your (alleged) intelligence and sensitivity over the rest of us. (Of course, the fact you thought "President Buchanan" was a good idea is proof of that.)
Now, step away from the internet and turn off the computer. You'll feel better in the morning. (Certainly, the rest of us will, not having to read any more of your drivel.)
Don’t feel bad Doc Mike, at least the FBI kid didn’t say “OK Boomer” re our economy that is juiced with insane gov borrowing that will F non-boomers.
“It's nice every once and a while to have a president who likes and respects those who serve in the military”
Except POWs.
BTW, have you ever heard another POTUS speak re today?
Wrong. Criticizing a condition does not require you to simultaneously offer an alternative. Questions can be vexed with no clear path forward.
There you go again. Now its a vexing problem. That means there is no discernible solution. That means Trump is the best solution. There is no better. It's vexing. Unknown.
@RMc:
(Of course, the fact you thought "President Buchanan" was a good idea is proof of that.)
Right. Buchanan was an immigration restrictionist, skeptical of "free" trade, and opposed to foreign adventurism. Thank god cooler heads like yours prevailed, and we got George W. Bush instead.
"Make America First Again" - Pat Buchanan on Face the Nation in 1992. Now where have I heard that phrase before?
(Certainly, the rest of us will, not having to read any more of your drivel.)
You're free to ignore every word I write.
@iowan2:
There you go again. Now its a vexing problem. That means there is no discernible solution. That means Trump is the best solution. There is no better. It's vexing. Unknown.
Maybe you're not hearing me. I am happy to concede to you that "Trump is the beast solution." My reply is: so what? What good is a "best solution" if that solution still fails? What good is me handing you the keys to your dream house if that house is built on top of a sinkhole? If SoCal is your ideal society and government, then you're going to love New America!
Penny only supported one troop.
Oh well, another thread hijacked by our blog's own super genius masterdebater and marathon rote disputater. I don't think he has lost an argument in 2 years, at least in his own mind.
Donald Trump really wants to withdraw troops from Afghanistan, but he won't do it because if he were to try the US Army/CIA will arrange to get hundreds of Americans killed in order to scuttle such plans?
Come on. You are smarter than this ! Nobody said he "wont do it !" You are just stamping your tiny feet.
@rightguy:
Oh well, another thread hijacked by our blog's own super genius masterdebater and marathon rote disputater. I don't think he has lost an argument in 2 years, at least in his own mind.
I can't tell you how painful it is to be insulted by anonymous people on the Internet who don't know me and have zero influence in my life. Oh the humanity!
@Michael K:
Come on. You are smarter than this ! Nobody said he "wont do it !" You are just stamping your tiny feet.
Tiny feet? Oh, Michael, so long in the tooth and still emotionally stuck on the schoolyard. Of course it was not my contention that he "won't do it." I was merely rehashing Nichevo's argument, whose response was, "I think we are going to get around to it," but only "After Donald Trump deals with the Deep State." (whatever that means)
Farmer
The way to lose the war is to make everything, just everything, about politics. That makes rearranging deck chairs look productive in comparison. Yet that is what you did. Not enough to mention those killed in Afghanistan. Not enough to just make your policy point. You have to try to exploit them to add oomph to your “fuck Trump”. Because everything, just everything, has to about politics. Maybe the rest of us are rearranging deck chairs; you are disabling the iceberg warning alarm.
Here is an example of what I mean Farmer. Don Cherry — google if you don’t know him — was fired today for saying immigrants should wear a poppy on Remembrance Day. He is right. But you are one of those undermining Remembrance Day and other civic virtues with your need to scream Fuck You! when Trump honors veterans.
@Ken B:
You have to try to exploit them to add oomph to your “fuck Trump”.
Exploit? Now see I actually think leaving American soldiers to die in a pointless, thankless war because it's too politically difficult to withdraw them is far more exploitative than invoking their names to exemplify precisely why we need to get out of that stupid war. I made the same exact points during Obama's escalation of the war, and oddly I don't remember anyone here rushing to Obama's defense and explaining to me that I simply failed to appreciate the nuance or complexity of the task involved.
Because everything, just everything, has to about politics.
Not everything, no. But war and foreign affairs most certainly are political. And if we're going to accept the argument that Trump cannot withdraw them because of political oppositionism, can anyone explain to me why he added more troops?
But you are one of those undermining Remembrance Day and other civic virtues with your need to scream Fuck You! when Trump honors veterans.
Except I haven't screamed "Fuck you!" I pointed out that it would be a far greater honor to remove our troops from a pointless war (where they continue to die needlessly) than saying nice words about them, which every president does, every Veteran's Day.
Farmer
Go on telling yourself the guy who bursts into the funeral yelling “Fuck Trump” is the one standing up for civil society.
Farmer
You didn’t write “Fuck his everlasting love”?
Go on telling yourself the guy who bursts into the funeral yelling “Fuck Trump” is the one standing up for civil society.
Go on telling yourself I ever said "Fuck Trump." And go on thinking this is something personal about Trump. And go on thinking that I haven't been complaining about the Afghanistan War for 18 years.
You didn’t write “Fuck his everlasting love”?
I absolutely did. Words are cheap. Much better to show someone you love them instead of telling them.
p.s. Perhaps it's a holdover from your Canadian upbringing, but members of a republic should be expected to excoriate their leaders. Sucking up is for subjects, not citizens.
A thank you to my Dad, CPO US Navy, my father in law, Sgt Maj US Army (the 82nd), my Uncle, SGT US Army, all WWII vets, gone but remembered every day. My brother, CPO US Navy, Vietnam vet and still kicking butt at 79. My Great great Grandfather and his 3 brothers, Confederate Army, two died and two lived. Their father a veteran of the War of 1812. I expect that there are veterans of the Revolution in my family tree too. I, a US Navy vet, salute you.
And all Veterans.
Farmer, you are just a plain stupid Idijt.
@LYNNDH:
Farmer, you are just a plain stupid Idijt.
Appreciate the wit. Your dad, father-in-law, and uncle would be so proud.
Well I hope everyone feels better having gotten a lot of anger and frustration out.
To the leftists who project their hive mind "thinking"onto conservatives, this thread exemplifies my long held belief that conservatives argue from the heart and the head. If there are no dumb leftists to argue with, they will argue with other conservatives.
It is a good thing. That is why we are (or have been) a free country.
Farmer : I work 10 + hours per day and my job proscribes explicitly active blogging during the work day. But it would be fairly easy to figure out who I am.
But seriously, I find your hair-splitting, know-it-all marathon rote disputations tiresome, unenlightening, tedious, and unpersuasive. That is my honest opinion, not an insult. You seem to be trying to simply win the argument, rather than trying to advance the discussion and find the truth.
Francisco D:
To the leftists who project their hive mind "thinking"onto conservatives, this thread exemplifies my long held belief that conservatives argue from the heart and the head. If there are no dumb leftists to argue with, they will argue with other conservatives.
I thought Mike Kinsley nailed it when he said, "Conservatives are always looking for converts; liberals are always looking for heretics."
tradguy @ 1:10pm,
I would say, rather, that the losses were complementary: Japan could not make up its losses in either personnel or warships; we hit them in both.
Farmer
So your rebuttal to my argument is that you didn’t say “Fuck Trump”, but rather you said “Fuck his ‘everlasting love’”? Precious.
You know that stupid Obama thing, “we are the change we have been waiting for”? You warn of baleful changes to American society. You are the change you've been warning about.
@rightguy:
But seriously, I find your hair-splitting, know-it-all marathon rote disputations tiresome, unenlightening, tedious, and unpersuasive. That is my honest opinion, not an insult.
That's fine. You're free to ignore me.
You seem to be trying to simply win the argument, rather than trying to advance the discussion and find the truth.
We are talking about subjective political questions, not mathematical equations. You are right that I am not trying to "find the truth" and probably wouldn't recognize "the truth" as such even if I were to find it. Here's what I think I am doing: saying what I believe and why I believe it. Others are more than welcome to tell me that they disagree with me and why. I will read what they have to say, consider it, and give a response.
Go back and read my original comment and then read the first few replies to it. Here's a sample:
wholelottasplainin': Now, will go go full-bull-goose looney and say those soldiers were fools? Isn't that your fallback? Or is that "you" were poor and dumb and uneducated, and had no choice but to join?
RMc:OK, you hate Trump, hate him so much your peener hurts. We get it.
stevew:A guy typing on his computer on Veteran's Day is hurling insults at the President for expressing gratitude and appreciation for America's veterans and active military personnel. Because he cares more.
Roy Lofquist:Dedicated to J. Farmer, a gormless son of a bitch who's shit don't stink:
So my question is do these replies sound to you like they are "trying to advance the discussion and find the truth?"
@Ken B:
So your rebuttal to my argument is that you didn’t say “Fuck Trump”, but rather you said “Fuck his ‘everlasting love’”? Precious.
Yes, Ken. There's a reason the phrase "actions speak louder than words" exists.
You warn of baleful changes to American society. You are the change you've been warning about.
I don't know if you've read Candice Malcolm's Losing True North: Justin Trudeau's Assault on Canadian Citizenship, but imagine if someone had, and their critique was, "how dare you be mean to Justin Trudeau," how compelling would you find that response?
Not Californicators?
Farmer sez:
In the meantime...
How Voters Turned Virginia From Deep Red to Solid Blue
"Once the heart of the confederacy, Virginia is now the land of Indian grocery stores, Korean churches and Diwali festivals. The state population has boomed — up by 38 percent since 1990, with the biggest growth in densely settled suburban areas like South Riding. One in 10 people eligible to vote in the state were born outside the United States, up from one in 28 in 1990. It is also significantly less white."
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/09/us/politics/virginia-elections-democrats-republicans.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
I did what was asked, but know I can never measure up to men on Omaha Beach or Seminary Ridge. Humbled. I sometimes wish I had that moment, mostly thankful I didn't.
LPT for arguing with Farmer.
Cancel all appointments.
Put on a large pot of strong coffee...
Put on a large pot of strong coffee...
Haha. Or a line of blow washed down with a Hendricks and tonic and a slice of cucumber.
I thought Mike Kinsley nailed it when he said, "Conservatives are always looking for converts; liberals are always looking for heretics."
The only person I ever saw literally foaming at the mouth( when triggered by Buchanan.)
Now, that was the golden age of television.
Only 47 comments by J. Farmer on this thread. So far. I mean, he probably added a few during the time it took me to tally them up...
Only 47 comments by J. Farmer on this thread. So far. I mean, he probably added a few during the time it took me to tally them up...
47, err, 48 out of 165. That's not even 30%. Sorry guys, I must be slipping. Hopefully Ann will turn comment moderation back on tomorrow, and this will all just seem like a bad dream.
What good is a "best solution" if that solution still fails?
Your brain is a strange place. I have never considered a failed outcome as a solution to anything. Just admit you can only argue for the sake of argument. Not for betterment of anything. Back to my original observation. Just words for the sake of words. Saying nothing going nowhere, lacking purpose and meaning.
B of E,
W/o his comments, what’s the ratio of bubble agreement v alternative thinking?
Even with him, what’s the number?
Why is echo chamber interesting to you folks? Odd. IMHO.
Lots of attacking Farm re process.
That dummy keeps using words to make points that can’t be refuted!
He’s so stupid!11!!! I
Only 47 comments by J. Farmer on this thread.
46 are responses...
@iowan2:
Back to my original observation. Just words for the sake of words. Saying nothing going nowhere, lacking purpose and meaning.
Apologies. I cannot rehash my entire worldview in every comment for the sake of people who may be unfamiliar with that. Believe it or not, there is a limit to how much I am willing to write and repeat myself ;)
But for the sake of clarity I will briefly describe it here. I consider myself an ethno-nationalist. That is, I believe that the best societies are ones in which the nation is synonymous with a dominant ethnic core. I think multiethnic, multicultural, polygot societies are a receipt for friction and conflict and cannot stably hold together. Therefore, I think it is best to avoid such an arrangement. From that perspective, I think the primary problem facing America is demographic. Thanks to the 1965 immigration act, the country has been transformed by mass immigration. And this transformation has been kicking into hyperdrive since at least the 1990s. We have been admitting a million-plus legal immigrants annually for years. As of today, non-white births exceed white births. In the next couple of decades, white Americans will make up less than half the country. Take a look at what immigration has done to the socio-political culture of California. How eager are you to replicate that phenomenon on a national scale. Celebratory pieces are already appearing in the MSM touting the fact that immigration has transformed Virginia politics. I linked to one such piece. That same demographic transformation is turning Texas and Florida purple on its way to solid blue. It's the people who make the culture and the politics. If you change the people, you will change the culture and the politics. And when that occurs, this won't be America anymore. It will be transformed into something completely different.
That is the problem as I see it. And I am pessimistic because I see the problem continuing unabated, and so far Trump has not shown me that he has either the ability or the inclination to stop this problem. Perhaps nobody does. Perhaps we've reached a tipping point. But I am utterly pessimistic about America's future. And I am prepared to defend that pessimism against any consensus anytime, anywhere.
jaydub @ 6:01pm,
I'd say LOL, but in all seriousness that's not a bad way to respond to an assault.
As for Farmer, here's a bit of context though I suspect he's fairly impervious to that.
@ Kirk Parker @9:45...The US Navy kept losing aircraft carriers in the ensuing last five months of 1942 in the engagements around the Guadalcanal melee. They got down to one Carrier left. But they were not losing that many trained carrier pilots for several reasons, including cockpit armament and flying them from sinking Carriers to join the Cactus Air Force.
The number of Carriers meant little because besides being a harmless floating city and hotel for the Admirals , ALL that a carrier is is its Air Group. It's the pilots stupid. And only the active pilots seemed to understand that complete importance. Which is why the pilots' leader in the air was the crucial man. McCluskey though wounded the first day confronted the Admiral's planned mission for pilots on the second day when there was nothing left to sink but there was a 100% risk of the stupid plan killing all of the pilots.
Intelligence matters.We need every Stable Genius we can get.
Kirk Parker:
As for Farmer, here's a bit of context though I suspect he's fairly impervious to that.
Yes, I am "fairly impervious" to comparing the demobilization of 12 million personnel around the world in early 1946 with bringing home 12,000 personnel (0.1% of the WWII total) from Afghanistan 5 years after Operation Enduring Freedom ended. But for a bit of context, from your link: "The number of personnel in the US military between mid-1945 and mid-1947 was reduced almost 90 percent, from more than 12 million to about 1.5 million."
Farmer
I don’t mind you being rude to Trump. I mind you being rude to mourners.
The way you keep politics from taking over everything is respecting when an occasion is non political. I don’t mind the conductor of the local orchestra being a Trudeau fan, or saying so in local op-eds, but if she gives a little speech from the podium before the Beethoven I will be angry.
@Ken B:
I don’t mind you being rude to Trump. I mind you being rude to mourners.
What mourners have I been rude to? This is Veteran's Day, not Memorial Day.
The way you keep politics from taking over everything is respecting when an occasion is non political
Read the two articles I linked to at 6:36pm, both written by veterans, and both criticizing US militarism. Is it your contention that they should not have expressed those ideas today because today should be "non political?" I think Veterans Day is a very opportune time to point out that Americans continue to die, and thousands more have their lives in danger, in a war that this country long ago abandoned and is basically just running on autopilot. Veterans Day might be a good time to remind ourselves as a nation that we should treat our soldiers with a bit more honor then shipping them off to an endless zombie war and then forgetting about them.
Just some observations. I don't worry about much anymore hence I'm not pessimistic. Pessimism leads to a waste of what could otherwise be a good day. I see no point in it. That said, I do view with, shall we say, a certain skepticism current demographic trends. The immigration of too many people from non-Western societies spells trouble. Yes there is a racial component to this. I'm not going to get into that here. I will say, however, that it seems to me that the attitudes and beliefs of many Americans of European (white) ancestry are really quite destructive. Many non-white immigrants -- specifically East Asians (e.g., Koreans), upper caste Indians from northern India, Caribbean and West African blacks, Armenians, Assyrians -- make for better Americans than many native born Americans. I want for America to remain a majority white country. But I recognize that many white Americans have their heads up their asses.
With a spoonVicki!why are you so miserable and unhappy?
Oh wait I don’t care.
God Bless our Veterans and the Great USA.
'I did what was asked, but know I can never measure up to men on Omaha Beach or Seminary Ridge. Humbled. I sometimes wish I had that moment, mostly thankful I didn't." - LP
I saw an older guy at the pharmacy today. He was wearing a hat with "Retired Air Force" on it. I thanked him for his service. He told me,"I'd like to say I flew F-16's in combat, but I was a meat cutter". Then he chuckled.
After heleft I thought,but you and everyone else that signed up has pledged to stand between the bad guys and my children and grandchildren if called. Just because that particular call was not made, does not diminish that pledge.
Wish I'd thought that in time to tell him.
Farmer maybe you should run for President 2020, seems you have all the solutions. Be best
So... back and forth about Veterans Day?
Really!
This is why we can't have nice things.
This is why we can't have nice conversations.
Farmer ought be happy because God has blessed America.
Look at the names he listed, now think of a reason to be positive about America's diversity... C'mon, you can do it!
You can do it. Just as a way to prevent the mind from excess rigidity. This one positive thing won't prevent all the doom (Derb should get the hell out of America with his Chinese wife right???) from overwhelming in due time, but it could be a respite from emotional collapse.
That being said I agree with almost every point Farmer makes and the sellout "hey I'll be dead when your generation has to pay my generation's bills so F off" is reason for contempt.
Imagine Farmer living during the plaque. Or, Americanly, imagine living through the Great Depression. War between the States. I just read about crime in Denver circa 1900 and how the dirty cops helped Soapy scam any newcomer with a buck to his name.
We as a nation have been through worse than what we face now, which is merely persuading people to believe in God and not Satan's Communism, which is all Communism everywhere.
As Max Ehrman wrote, strive to be happy. Thank God you weren't born in Mexico, appreciate what you have to work with to mold America into the force for liberty we all thought at one time it could be.
"If we're going to leave Afghanistan in any kind of orderly manner-removing equipment etc- and protecting the contractors that do that. It's going to take at least as long as it took to build it up. People think that the infrastructure just magically appears.
Except Trump added troops to the equation. That's moving in the exact opposite direction."
Sometimes. To move forward you have to go back. How many of those troops are in charge of removing stuff as opposed to combat troops.
I'll tell you what a Marine combat veteran told me when is asked him how come his platoon didn't just retreat-run away. He said," If you stay and fight you just might live. If you run you will sure as shit die." Read about the First Marine Division in Korea.
A cynic would say it is good any non-white sounding name listed by Farmer above died, and that racist would deserve Hell I would presume unless repentance came into play. Remember, without the natives (non-white) us whites might have lost to the Germans. And without the Germans kicking out the Jews they might have faired better than they did, all to our detriment.
Interesting tension between those appreciative of ceremony and tradition and Farmer more interested in robust debate based on the correct notion that that is why freedom exists in large part, because great men understood without free speech you cannot have free thought.
Farmer's point that settling for a "no-go" versus a "go" proposition because the easy alternatives are all no-goes explains conservatives supporting Slew McCain's shitty grandson and the cunt representing Utah (in the Senate).
I understand Farmer being hurt by Trump not following through on promises yet, just another pump and dump politician it seems, cheerleading us all straight into debt insolvency. I see it more as America's choice in 20/20: elect the GOP, as shitty as they are, to pass laws the potUS can sign otherwise we just keep heading faster and faster toward the cliff from which there can be no return. And the new shitty GOP will be better than Paul Ryan's and John Bohner's and the fat pedo's shitty GOP I guarantee you that.
Final thought: The new shitty GOP, if it does come into existence and is in fact better (less shitty) than the old pedo-led shitty GOP, will not be because of any of Farmer's detractors but because of the Farmers of America and the world applying pressure toward a true "go" like Tom Coburn exemplified budgetary-wise.
Especially to all the Vietnam era veterans, thank you for your service. My heart aches when I hear your stories of returning home to more violence and hatred. Of having to call the police when you landed at Detroit metro so you could safely leave the terminal, for instance. I wasn't a protester but I also did nothing to stop it. My penance is to make as many quilts as possible to wrap you in gratitude and healing.
Thank you for your service; and welcome home.
AA: So... back and forth about Veterans Day?
Really!
Everybody's pissed off at Cassandra. But I think that's deflection from the real source of anger, judging from the obtuseness of so many of the responses to his comments.
Look, "conservatives" have spent the last 50 years ostracizing,vilifying, purging,memory-holing, and sacrificing to the prog-Ba'al anybody in their ranks who pointed out the sorts of simple truths about, say, demographics that our J.F. bangs on about. When it becomes impossible to *not* see that "what all the damned fools said would happen" is happening, everybody gets mad at Cassandra's pessimism - with an anger that is out of proportion to the mere annoyance occasioned by repetitive "we are doomed" posts.
This is why we can't have nice things.
Lol. Though I'll point out that "this is why we won't be able to have nice things" is Cassandra's message in a nutshell.
I see the problem continuing unabated, and so far Trump has not shown me that he has either the ability or the inclination to stop this problem.
I agree with much of your statement about the 1965 immigration law but I do object to your characterization of what Trump has done as president. For example:
An example of what is desirable vs what is possible.
Posted on November 11, 2019 by John Hinderaker in Immigration
DACA Arrives at the Supreme Court
For some time, I have puzzled over why the Obama administration’s DACA (“Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals”) program has not been declared unconstitutional, while Obama’s DAPA (“Deferred Action for Parents of Americans and Lawful Permanent Residents”) went down to judicial defeat. We won’t have to wait much longer, as the U.S. Supreme Court has taken the case and will hear arguments tomorrow:
The long-running battle over the Trump administration’s bid to end the Obama-era program for young undocumented immigrants known as “Dreamers” will land before the Supreme Court on Tuesday.
***
“The administration has basically chalked up the fact that they are going to lose a lot of these cases in the lower courts,” said Thomas Dupree, a former top Bush Justice Department official and now an appellate attorney.
“But they’re playing the long game. I think that there are those in the White House and the Justice Department who have made a calculation saying, ‘Look we can absorb all these losses in the lower courts because we are going to win the endgame when this case gets into the Supreme Court.’”
It remains to be seen how the court will rule, however, on this complicated issue — which concerns the limits of one president trying to rescind the policies of his predecessor.
It is hard to understand why one president cannot “rescind the policies of his predecessor” by following the same procedure his predecessor did.
The Trump administration announced its plan to phase out the program in 2017, only for the federal courts to rule that it could not apply retroactively and that DACA should be restarted in full. The White House fought back on those decisions, saying the president has broad authority over immigration enforcement policy.
He certainly does. I haven’t studied the briefs so as to be up to speed on the technical arguments that will be presented to the Court tomorrow. But at the end of the day, it is hard to see how the courts can hold that the president is legally barred from carrying out his constitutional duty to see that the laws–including the immigration laws–are faithfully executed.
And that is only one policy. They call themselves "The Resistance" and have had a lot of help.
So... back and forth about Veterans Day?
Really!
This is why we can't have nice things.
Pearl-clutching Ann is my favorite Ann.
https://mobile.twitter.com/usacsmret/status/1194226145228705793
Farmer, for once listen to Doctor K : perfection is the enemy of good.
AA: “Veterans Day”
There's your mistake right there. It's not Veterans Day. It's Farmer day. It’s always Farmer day.
@rightguy:
Farmer, for once listen to Doctor K : perfection is the enemy of good.
He has made that point over and over again, and I have responded to it over and over again. I am not asking for perfection, but we do disagree on what "the good" is.
@Ken B:
There's your mistake right there. It's not Veterans Day. It's Farmer day. It’s always Farmer day.
You know, Ken, nothing is compelling you to read anything I write or reply to it.
Always interesting when Farmer shows up. You guys should be willing to challenge your assumptions more often.
Farmer
I am not surprised you discourage responses.
@Ken B:
I am not surprised you discourage responses.
I "discourage responses" that are nothing more than personal insults hurled towards me. I left the schoolyard a long time ago and have no desire to go back.
J. Farmer:
whooooosh!
J.Farmer said:
(stuff..)
11/11/19, 2:26 PM
J.Farmer said:
(Followup)
11/12/19, 11:00 AM
Like I said before, you wanna argue with Farmer, cancel all appointments, turn off the TV and phone, and make a lotta coffee.
Like the Scouts say, "Be prepared".
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