२५ जुलै, २०१९

"Street dogs and people in India often have a kind of understanding. The dogs aren’t wild, but they aren’t owned either."

"Free-roaming dogs are often supported by the community, but nobody decides when and where they live, eat or mate.... Rahul Sehgal, the India-Asia director for the Humane Society International, who is based in Ahmedabad, said, 'In other places people don’t feed dogs.' But, he said, 'I haven’t seen a single place in India where dogs are not fed by individuals or community.'... There are about 35 million dogs in India... the dogs are mostly outside.... In North America and Western Europe, increasing wealth has led to a change in the status of dogs, which has certainly made rabies control by vaccination much easier. As Dr. Wallace put it, they move off the streets, 'into our yards, then our houses, then our beds.' In India, a big reduction in street dog populations would mark a significant cultural change.... As India becomes more urban and standards of living increase, he said, 'Suddenly people are intolerant of dogs.' People travel to other countries, he said, and 'they don’t see dogs in the street.' Over time, street dogs may disappear in the cities.... If so, that would be a very different India. Despite noise, feces, bites and the always present chance of rabies, the attitude of many Indians toward free-roaming dogs is still extraordinary tolerance."

From "Rabies Kills Tens of Thousands Yearly. Vaccinating Dogs Could Stop It/Sometimes the interests of humans and animals are the same, but humans have to save the animals first" (NYT), which tells about Mission Rabies, an effort to catch and vaccinate street dogs in India, where something like 20,000 people die of rabies every year. The vaccinated dogs are set free, and the vaccination lasts only one year. The vaccinated dog is marked with paint, but the paint lasts only "for a week or so."

ADDED: Something that I don't think is examined in the article: What benefits are provided by wild dogs roaming all over the place? I don't mean the sort of companionship that corresponds to the role of an indoor pet dog. Perhaps the rabies problem is tolerated because the dogs are controlling rats and consuming garbage. They're doing work that provides a greater health benefit — a greater good for a greater number. 20,000 sounds like a lot of loss, a lot of suffering, but it might be outweighed by other health benefits, quite aside from the love and companionship we automatically think of when we think of dogs.

५० टिप्पण्या:

Expat(ish) म्हणाले...

Compared to having a cow lie down in the middle of the highway on the main road into Bangalore, a dog in the street is nothing.

I will note that Indian drivers move very slowly so the injury rate for wild dogs is probably pretty low. However, slow speed is not due to anything other than; better gas mileage, lower stress on the janky mechanicals, poor road conditions, traffic congestion, and the relatively high capital value of the vehicle compared to salary. IMHO.

-XC

rehajm म्हणाले...

They scare away the tigers...

gilbar म्हणाले...

isn't this another example of how much better Hindis are than moslems?

Heartless Aztec म्हणाले...

I have a large raccoon in my neighborhood. Sits on my yard furniture at night as if he's the owner. 60 years ago when American dogs lived mostly outside Mr Racoon would be nowhere to be seen. Dogs also announced late nite strangers as they paraded through the neighborhood. But times change...

Fernandinande म्हणाले...

India had a big economic expansion recently, and only a few years almost nobody in India could afford to get more than one raby.

Ralph L म्हणाले...

From the CDC: "From 1960 to 2018, a total of 125 human rabies cases were reported in the United States, with roughly a quarter resulting from dog bites during international travel."

One or two deaths per year, but I wonder if that includes complications from.

Jamie म्हणाले...

I walk with a couple of friends most days in my large suburb of Houston. Two of us bring our small dogs with us. Once, I asked my non-dog walking buddy, who is Indian, what the deal was with the many Indian walkers we pass - why they shy away so strongly from two little dogs on leashes. (Once I noticed it was happening, I started moving into the grass to give them as much space as possible - I'm not in the business of making people feel scared!)

She said what I expected: that Indians in India are not accustomed to seeing dogs as pets but rather as wild and potentially dangerous. I've noticed a similar reaction from walkers who appear to be from Africa (basing this on skin color, dress, and accent or language), but not so much among East Asian-appearing walkers (who in my area often appear to have fully embraced Texas in both style and presence of pet dogs on leashes themselves - the only way to tell they may not be from these parts is the language they're speaking together as they walk). My friend herself said she's come a long way from when she first came to the States - though she isn't giving in to her kids' pleas for a dog, she at least doesn't feel a sense of danger from every dog she passes.

But I have to say, the way this article presents Indian attitudes toward street dogs is not the same attitude I sense from the people on our walks. There's considerably more actual fear than matter-of-fact wariness. I wonder if that has to do with the large proportion of walkers who are women.

Big Mike म्हणाले...

Regarding the unfortunate 20,000 lost to rabies, it’s not just that they died, but how they died. There are plenty of crappy ways to die, but rabies is one of the worst.

Levi Starks म्हणाले...

Their dogs are practically loaded guns.

Wince म्हणाले...

Perhaps the rabies problem is tolerated because the dogs are controlling rats and consuming garbage.

If not, what meat are they fed... except other dogs?

"Indian dog food is... dogs!"

John henry म्हणाले...

Ralph,

Is that "cases" or deaths?

I read it as cases and I suspect that a small number of those result in death.

But perhaps it is deaths and I am misreading you.

John Henry

John henry म्हणाले...

Surprised you did not link this

https://althouse.blogspot.com/2004/11/rabies.html

John Henry

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent म्हणाले...

“Despite noise, feces, bites and the always present chance of rabies”

Yeah, despite that. This is why Third-World countries remain Third-World countries.
To make a comparison to the homeless in our own country is horribly in-Christian but equally unavoidable.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent म्हणाले...

UN-Christian.

John henry म्हणाले...

In most countries those dogs would e rounded up and killed.

Most of my knowledge on this comes from Kim but I wonder if some of this comes from Hindu beliefs in reincarnation?

"don't kill that dog, he's my uncle Fred! Fred was a bit of a wanker which is why he came back as a stray dog"

Not meaning to insult any religion here

John Henry

brylun म्हणाले...

On my 3 extended trips to India, aside from the sacred cows wandering the streets (you can't avoid stepping in cow dung...), the monkeys were almost everywhere - the monkey temple in Vrindavan, the Elephanta caves, and even on the streets near the Taj Mahal. The monkeys are bold and will take your sunglasses, or the soda can right from your hand. India now is a mix of old and new: you will see a naked sadhu covered in ashes wandering the streets, people riding elephants in the streets, and then down the street there will be a Starbucks! I wonder how much longer old India will be on display.

Expat(ish) म्हणाले...

@John Henry - it is hard for us, as Americans, to understand the level of chaos and neglect that exists at street level in India. Think SFO^SFO. I've spent over a year in India on business trips and I'm mostly accustomed to people pooping in the street, seeing a higher caste person strike a lower caste person with impunity (shades of the 'Merican South!), the utter lack of sanitation in what we would think of as a middle class restaurant, the graft in nearly every business transaction, the constant parade of political show trials, etc, etc.

If there was a program to eradicate dogs, there would be more dogs than ever in six months - Indian Will Rogers.

-XC

PS - Having said that, I always enjoyed my time in India and made many friends there. It's just very very different.

Birkel म्हणाले...

These articles were written by people who do not understand The Tragedy of the Commons.

Or Leftist Collectivists for short.

Rick म्हणाले...

dogs are controlling rats and consuming garbage.

They aren't just consuming garbage, they are also giving it back. Not a net benefit in my opinion.

Caligula म्हणाले...

I saw a lot of dogs in India, but people's relationship to them was very different than in the USA.

The dogs mostly roamed in packs, they were not friendly at all (none would ever come up to you to beg for food, or for a nuzzle) but they were also non-threatening. So long as you left them alone they wouldn't snarl at you, or growl, or otherwise exhibit threat behaviors. I'd always assumed that a pack of dogs that had no attachment to any particular people would become aggressive and threatening, but these dogs were not.

Which is not to say the dogs were not dependent on people: they were scavengers, apparently living off of human garbage. And, there were lots and lots and lots of them: in public parks, on the streets. Just going about their doggy business without interacting with people.

Char Char Binks, Esq. म्हणाले...

People in the US used to barely train their dogs not to attack people passing by on the street, if they gave even that much training, and would often let them run without leashes. I remember this from my childhood, and from what I've read and heard, it was worse before then. Walking to school or to the local market always carried the risk, generally minor, of meeting with a vicious dog, restrained or not. More often, there were simply dogs to reckon with, not knowing if they were going to be aggressive, or if they would break free of their restraints.

Stricter laws and a greater willingness to sue have changed that situation for the better. Countries are only not shitholes when people are compelled by force of law to not be shitty.

traditionalguy म्हणाले...

This is also an amazing display of the near absolute tolerance that India's culture has under its Hindu history. There is an acceptance of all thousand gods and the animals inhabited by them.

NB: do not abuse cows or elephants in India or their will be a riot.

Bay Area Guy म्हणाले...

I was in Belize about 20 years ago, and the stray dog phenomenon there can be quite upsetting to dog-lovers. My wife, a classic dog-lover, who grew up with many rescue dogs, had a hard time resisting the urge to feed/save 'em.

But it doesn't work. They're a bit wild, a bit hungry and not too domesticated.

It's like "Mad Max" but for dogs.

Mark म्हणाले...

Despite the suggestion that the hindu faith affects this, I did not see any real difference in the treatment or presence of dogs while travelling from India to Pakistan or Bangladesh.

Just more wild cows and many more monkeys in India. All seemed to consider dogs something to avoid and never invite in.

Ice Nine म्हणाले...

It is not a matter of what benefit dogs provide in India. They don't particularly. This is simple. Hindus revere all animals and consider them to be manifestations of God and to possess souls. There are even dog-gods I believe. Most Indians wouldn't dream of harming a dog.

I've traveled much of India - I don't recall dogs being much of an issue. They're there and they are basically ignored. They're like pigeons. They are nowhere near as obtrusive as the cows and the cow pies!

Stephen St. Onge म्हणाले...

“The vaccinated dog is marked with paint, but the paint lasts only ‘for a week or so.’ ”

Not a lot of thinking going on here. Depiliate a small patch of the dog’s skin, and tattoo it. Problem solved.

effinayright म्हणाले...

I don't buy the idea that the dogs kill rats and thus keep down the diseases the latter spread.

In Calcutta long ago, I came across a half-dead rat while walking down a slum street.

Seeking to put the poor critter out of its misery I found a good-sized rock and threw it down on him---------whereupon a number of locals came out to yell at me and make threatening gestures.

I and my two traveling mates beat a hasty retreat.

As for cows: yes, Hindus won't harm them, but if a cow happens to be dying in the street, I've seen men with long knives waiting for it to expire so they can skin it for its hide.

I agree that India's a fascinating place, filled with the many contradictions of great poverty cheek-by-jowl alongside great wealth.

Kipling called it, "the Land of Stinks and Palaces."

He was right.

Seeing Red म्हणाले...

They don’t need to own DoGs/slaves because they have a caste system.

RichardJohnson म्हणाले...

Jamie:
She said what I expected: that Indians in India are not accustomed to seeing dogs as pets but rather as wild and potentially dangerous.

I am reminded of a work colleague from Lima, Peru. At the time, I was working out of an office in my boss's home.She came to my boss's house for me to train her on the software we used. My boss had a Labrador Retriever who was a rescue dog.

The moment that the dog saw the Peruvian, it peed on the floor. The dog could sense that the Peruvian didn't like it. The Peruvian was accustomed to pack dogs in Lima, so her instinctive reaction to my boss's dog was dislike.

Fortunately,the floor was tile,so the mess was cleaned up without any damage to the floor.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

"Surprised you did not link this"

I link in the sense of having a specific tag for this subject.

Very few diseases have a tag here. The only other 2 I can think of are cancer and Alzheimer's.

Seeing Red म्हणाले...

Hopefully Indians in America will adapt to our ways re. "pet" dogs.

My neighbors did. They bought snacks for my dog.

There are dogs on both sides of them.

Clark म्हणाले...

John Henry:

The 125 cases = 125 deaths. If you get treated within a few days of being exposed, you won't get rabies. If you get rabies, you are almost certain to die.

There is the one case of survival recently in Wisconsin. Doctors hope to refine and develop the treatment that worked in that case so they can save others in the future. If you get bitten, get the shots. If you think you might have been bitten, get the shots.

Ignorance is Bliss म्हणाले...

Very few diseases have a tag here. The only other 2 I can think of are cancer and Alzheimer's.

You also have a tag for socialism.

jimbino म्हणाले...

"What benefits are provided by wild dogs roaming all over the place?"

As I understand it, they show the humans there where and how to defecate. Their value in combating disease by killing rats is a joke, since dogs are known to transmit these zoonoses to humans:

Diseases Acquired From Dogs

* Anthrax
* Blastomycosis
* Bergeyella (Weeksella) zoohelcum
* Brucella canis
* Campylobacteriosis
* Capnocytophaga canimorsus
* Capnocytophaga cynodegmi
* CDC groups EF-4a and EF-4b
* CDC group NO-1
* Cheyletiellosis
* Coenurosis
* Cryptosporidiosis
* Cutaneous larva migrans
* Demodex folliculorum
* Dermatophytosis
* Dipylidium caninum
* Echinococcosis
* Francisella tularensis
* Gastrospirillum hominis
* Granulocytic ehrlichiosis
* Leptospirosis
* Lyme disease
* Neisseria canis
* Neisseria weaveri
* Pasteurella multocida
* Plague
* Rabies
* Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever
* Salmonellosis
* Scabies
* Staphylococcus intermedius
* Strongyloides stercoralis
* Trichinosis
* Visceral larva migrans
* Yersinia enterocolitica

Gospace म्हणाले...

There are neighborhood dogs in America, albeit not many. The characteristics I saw in the neighborhood dogs I've known were simple. Large. Friendly. Protective of CHILDREN. The neighborhood dog will know all the neighborhood children, and protect them. The ones I knew were on Staten Island. Several people fed the dogs. Left water for them. Let them into their house overnight. The dogs knew where they were welcome. No one person owned them. Somehow the neighborhood dogs were not mangy, had a collar with rabies tags, and were left alone by the dogcatcher.

Out in ruralville where I live now we have occasional dog packs. Shooting and killing them if they're chasing deer OR cattle is perfectly acceptable.

Sebastian म्हणाले...

"Perhaps the rabies problem is tolerated because the dogs are controlling rats and consuming garbage. They're doing work that provides a greater health benefit — a greater good for a greater number. 20,000 sounds like a lot of loss, a lot of suffering, but it might be outweighed by other health benefits, quite aside from the love and companionship we automatically think of when we think of dogs."

Perhaps, on the other hand, a nice American law prof averse to travel, safely ensconced in her Madison cocoon, has no earthly idea whether Indian dogs serve a "greater good," whether such a "greater good" is good or greater in the eyes of Indians, or whether Indians care at all about the things she thinks "people" care about, like "love and companionship" from animals.

Ralph L म्हणाले...

The shelters here will vaccinate feral cats for free, don't remember about dogs. They clip the end of an ear off so they don't need to catch them.

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

Where I grew up in the sticks, dogs were unleashed and outdoor animals. They had "owners", but I wouldn't say they were owned. Never spayed or neutered, either. Dog fights were common whenever one was in heat, and we knew enough to not get involved in those fights, too.

sprx म्हणाले...

Dog is born free, but everywhere in chains.

Lydia म्हणाले...

Re the sacred animals of Hinduism:

9. Dog [number 10 is the Rat]

It is believed that dogs guard the doors of heaven and hell. Symbolically, they may also personify Yama, the lord of death, and Yami, his sister. The heavenly dog Sarama is considered the mother of all dogs. Bhairava, a fierce form of Shiva, who is worshipped in Tantra, has a dog as his vehicle. He is also depicted in some images as having the face of a dog. Images of dogs are also worshipped in some Bhairava temples, in addition to feeding the dogs that loiter near such temples. ... Symbolically, dogs represent loyalty, obedience, devotion, and the Vedas. According to Hindu superstitions and omens, dogs yodeling in the night is considered inauspicious. Hindu myths and legends suggest that gods may often appear before humans disguised as dogs either to test them or help them. ... Since Hindus believe in reincarnation, they believe that dogs may represent past affinities or relationships. For the same reason they do not like the idea of killing or abusing dogs. Streets dogs are huge menace in contemporary India, but because of religious beliefs they are not allowed to be euthanized.

Barry म्हणाले...

Most dogs I saw in India seemed to cower when approached. I did not see any that appeared to be pets.
I have walked extensively in poor neighborhoods in India and never felt threatened in any way except for 2 stray dogs that tried to bite me from behind. I turned around and confronted them and they barked as they backed away.
Since Muslims see dogs as unclean we did not see any dogs in Malaysia but lots of cats.

Joe म्हणाले...

When I lived in Venezuela almost 40 years ago, one of the things which bugged me was the number of semi-wild "street" dogs (though it did vary by cities. In one southern city, there were relatively few street dogs, for which I have no explanation.)

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

“Perhaps, on the other hand, a nice American law prof averse to travel, safely ensconced in her Madison cocoon, has no earthly idea whether Indian dogs serve a "greater good," whether such a "greater good" is good or greater in the eyes of Indians, or whether Indians care at all about the things she thinks "people" care about, like "love and companionship" from animals.”

Of course, that’s why I said perhaps. My first thought was that vaccinating the dogs was impractical and wild dogs should be regarded as dangerous and euthanized. I chose not to say that because it antagonizes people.

Ralph L म्हणाले...

Take them all to the Pakistani border and fire into the air.

Anga2010 म्हणाले...

I think that they prolly eat some of the dogs. It's Obamaesque.

Nancy Reyes म्हणाले...

too many poor people in Asia have a "whatever" approach to life: accepting their children's deaths as karma. However, things are changing.

But the 200 deaths a year from rabies here in the Philippines occurs despite people being willing to kill feral dogs, the government doing rabies vaccinations to farm dogs, and free rabies shots for you and your kids when you are bitten.

So why do people tolerate feral dogs? Because they kill rats, feral cats, and eat edible garbage in places where garbage collection is rare or absent. (after the dogs eat it, you can burn the rest).

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Twelve म्हणाले...

Read The Wolf in the Parlor by Jon Franklin. How dogs became dogs has not been much investigated. Lots of supposition seems to have been mistaken. Street dogs and much else is explored. Excellent book.

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