"... but is rather a blood-and-soil movement that stands for nothing larger than one bombastic hothead."
Writes Nicholas Kristof in "The G.O.P. Is Now a Personality Cult/The party no longer stands for much of anything" (NYT), which I'm quoting as an example of the kind of thing I am seeing but not reading anymore. I made an exception for this one — after passing over many similar but slightly less tantalizing headlines — and I cherry-picked one line — mainly because I want to talk about how unreadably predictable this sort of material has become, but I do have one thing to say: If we need a center-right political party in this country, how about if the Democrats be that party?
At least be the center-center party. The whole center is gapingly open for anyone sensible and normal to step into it. I'm suspicious of one-sided demands for one party to forgo the thrills of extremism, to just calm down and be dull.
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३९२ टिप्पण्या:
«सर्वात जुने ‹थोडे जुने 392 पैकी 201 – 392Michael,
Legal residents who intentionally decide to not join in E Pluribus Unum aren't participants. That's completely fine. But those who choose to not be a part of it are observers.
Well yes, Kellyanne and her husband are from different castes.
She is lower-middle class, abandoned by her father and related to Italian mobsters.
He is a Harvard man.
The confluence of interests is ongoing. It is not many, anymore, it has become congealed in permanent alliances and, especially, in enforced conformity. This is yet another interesting process over the decades, that of the uniformization of the white cultures, or castes.
The now is vastly different from the then.
When Inga isn’t accusing Republican candidates or office holders of treason or fabricated sex crimes, she’s the very soul of reason.
Inga, those are not real policy differences between Bernie, Warren, and the squad. You basically said they are younger and don't hide their agenda as well. Agreed, but the objectives have the same end: socialism, and rejection of the American principles that make this nation exceptional. They all want us to turn down a path that has an unbroken record of failure with the most horrible consequences attached every time. None of them criticize the the most recent failed experiment in Venezuela or those people who orchestrated it, yet they hate Trump? That shows something very important.
Inga: "I actually did answer Bagoh’s question at 11:55 AM."
No you didnt.
Bagoh is asking for the policy differences.
However, Bagoh did not offer his question to you in an obviously hoax dossier so you missed it.
Do you want to try again?
List the exact policy differences offered by Warren/Bernie compared to the lefty loony brother-marrying Squad.
Trump is the center-right and to the extent he drags the Republican party with him, they will probably end up occupying that space.
What Kristof and the press either can't or won't see is that Trump's tweets and rhetoric aren't so much reflective of where he wants to go, they're intended to make the classic moderate center-right seem more appealing by comparison. His goal is not to deport the Squad, but to discredit their brand of America-bashing politics in comparison with his pro-American politics. People might not necessarily like Trump in the process, but that's not the point - he just has to get them to dislike Democrat policy more than his policy.
If you were to go back to 2015 and describe Trump's policies to the country at large, but didn't attach his name to them, they'd poll fairly well. Most of the press these days is so far to the left that they probably think Obama is center-right.
Who spied on reporters and locked them in closets.
Lmao!
Inga won’t answer questions unless in a hoax dossier or a video. But she believed Hillary.
wwww: "Legal residents who intentionally decide to not join in E Pluribus Unum aren't participants."
LOLOLOLOLOL
Actually, the dems had lots and lots of legal residents and non-legal residents and foreign citizens and govt officials "participate" in 2016.
Lots and lots.
And lots.
Drago,
So you think that legal, long-term residents of the USA, who choose to not become citizens, are participants and taking a side? I hear you. I see it different. I see that as observing, and standing apart. It's a deliberate choice to not become a citizen. Everyone has that right, and that's fine, but subjects are not citizens.
“You basically said they are younger and don't hide their agenda as well.”
No, I said they were a bit too radical. THAT was the main difference. Bernie and Warren are progressives, the Squad are progressives on steroids. The Country doesn’t need radicals to make policy. Bernie and Warren are not radicals. Most Progressives want to get their candidate in office. The Squad isn’t helping that effort a whole lot, even though young people really really like them.
Maybe if more Americans would individually find their own centers, we would all be happier politically, and would not need the nick kristofs of the world advising us?
(Too Marianne Williamson for you this Sunday?)
(Don't look now but there's a weight loss plug in there too.)
wwww is spinning so very very furiously to hide what the open border/full rights for illegals dems/LLR's are all about.
Its amusing to compare and contrast the dufferent wwww and Inga approaches in advancing the lefty agenda.
There is no difference among Warren and Harris and Beto and the Squad on reparations and open borders.
Bernie has called open borders a Koch Brothers position (it is) but no one quite knows precisely what he will do about it if anything.
It is apparently now racist to think busing was stupid. Don’t know if that means the position of the nominee if the party will be to bring it back or not but you can’t rule it out.
de Toqueville commented on US culture and politics.
As did Dickens, Thackeray, Naipaul, Sienkiewicz, Herge (Tintin), and Oscar Wilde, to name just a few.
I am a latter-day, well, any of those fellows you care to choose.
“Its amusing to compare and contrast the dufferent wwww and Inga approaches in advancing the lefty agenda.”
It’s boring to read Jon Boy’s repetitive canned comments to any liberal or anyone he thinks isn’t a fellow Cultist.
So you think that legal, long-term residents of the USA, who choose to not become citizens, are participants and taking a side? I hear you. I see it different. I see that as observing, and standing apart. It's a deliberate choice to not become a citizen. Everyone has that right, and that's fine, but subjects are not citizens.
Since I personally know some, yes. It’s insulting.
Inga: "No, I said they were a bit too radical. THAT was the main difference."
LOLOL
Inga knows better than to try and spell out the specific policy differences beween Warren/Sanders and the Squad.....
......because there is NONE.
A "bit too radical".....
LOL
Hiw funny is that?
Gee, you mean we shouldnt tear down literaly every single building in the US and rebuid it to be more "green"?
Really? You don't say...
Blogger cyrus83 said...
What Kristof and the press either can't or won't see is that Trump's tweets and rhetoric aren't so much reflective of where he wants to go, they're intended to make the classic moderate center-right seem more appealing by comparison. His goal is not to deport the Squad, but to discredit their brand of America-bashing politics in comparison with his pro-American politics.
7/21/19, 12:12 PM
I wouldn't bet a ton of money on this. Trump's clear priorities on trade and immigration make him anathema to the CoC-servatives, and therefore to the teeming hordes of the consultant class. I don't think he cares for the classic GOP Congress, especially after they decided to vote against his national emergency, Obamacare repeal, and other national priorities. For that matter, given how much is coming out about Omar, I think he'd love to have her convicted of immigration fraud. Maybe American judges strip away naturalized citizenship after someone abuses it legally, as some other countries have historically done, but maybe not. It's a fight that would only benefit Trump with his particular voters.
No, I said they were a bit too radical.
They’re spouting nothing that hasn’t been spouted for decades. The difference back then they weren’t in office.
It’s that the mask is off and they feel comfortable that they can.
Inga cant answer policy questions (no cut and paste option readily available) so its Inga Deflection Time!!
Of course, all Inga would have to do is list out the policy differences between Warren/Bernie and the Lunatic 4 to prove me wrong.....
.....but we all know that wont happen, dont we?
Warren and Bernie would allow the great unwashed to fly?
Seeing Red: "Warren and Bernie would allow the great unwashed to fly?"
Shhhh!
Inga should be made to do this on her own as a learning exercise.
“...his pro-American politics.”
I recall his American Carnage speech at his inauguration. He sounded more anti-America than even the “Squad”. He painted the US as a “Carnage” in order for him to be able to say with any believability “Only I can fix it”. And you people bought it.
Deflector Inga: "And you people bought it."
We had to buy it, he found obama's economic Magic Wand!!!
Poor Inga.
Can you imagine having to pretend every single day that our economy isn't going gangbusters?
LOL
Poor poor Inga.
Too many Americans working for her to be pleased.....
I recall his American Carnage speech at his inauguration. He sounded more anti-America than even the “Squad”. He painted the US as a “Carnage” in order for him to be able to say with any believability “Only I can fix it”. And you people bought it.
So he said stuff almost every politician says? HORRORS!
He’s fixing it.
Not to worry Inga.
I understand the dems/LLR's are cranking out a brand new hoax dossier with obviously fake economic numbers so help for you is right around the corner!!!
Those differences are stylistic, but the ends are the same. The only problem you have with the squad is they want the same things faster, and they may ruin the chance to do it at all. In other words they are too transparent, which you call "radical". Still, I hear no policy objectives by the squad that Warren or Bernie would publicly oppose. If they do oppose them, then they are purposefully deceiving the voters they want.
I’ll fight for you!
You know, ‘92 was a good year. Not according to TFRIC. And he got elected.
bagoh20: "Those differences are stylistic, but the ends are the same."
Inga will never get it.
At least be the center-center party. The whole center is gapingly open for anyone sensible and normal to step into it.
Trump is pro-gay marriage.
Enacted prison reform.
Is working toward ending the war on drugs.
Is ending numerous stupid neocon/democrat wars.
Cutting taxes on low income people and raising it on wealthy property owners.
Wants the same border policies as Mexico/Canada.
Wants everyone in the world to have free trade.
If you can't see that Trump is the center you are an idiot Ann.
I'm suspicious of one-sided demands for one party to forgo the thrills of extremism, to just calm down and be dull.
You should be.
The people making these demands are assaulting their political opponents on a daily basis and firebombing ICE buildings.
Those differences are stylistic, but the ends are the same. The only problem you have with the squad is they want the same things faster, and they may ruin the chance to do it at all.
Just like Obama.
Just like TFRIC c. ‘93-‘94.
Drago said...
bagoh20: "Those differences are stylistic, but the ends are the same."
Inga will never get it.
Inga gets it.
She just realizes her only chance at throwing all of us in jail/the ovens is tricking stupid people like Ann who are looking for the "center-center."
BRAVO ACHILLES!
If we had a real media someone might ask Bernie about the famous Ezra Klein interview in which he denounced
open borders. It would be interesting and it would be a way to distinguish himself. Instead we have to guess. Mind you honesty would probably sink him with the base.
Alas he is married to a criminal. That could end up hurting him.
If one wants boring, one should tune out.
Ok people aren't following the thread.
Read the thread next time. You have jumped into the middle of a discussion.]We're discussing a specific commenter who said he took a side in the argument. A specific person on the thread. He is not an illegal immigrant. He is a legal, long term resident.
He is legal. Don't claim he is illegal. He's a long term commenter. Don't pretend our conversation was about another subject. He's a commenter, and a legal resident.
The question was: Is it taking a side if that individual chooses to not become a citizen and participate and vote? I say no. I don't judge it but I do think that person has decided to be an observer, not a participant. A subject, not a citizen.
"If you can't see that Trump is the center you are an idiot Ann."
It's hard, even for a skeptical mind, to see this with the 24/7 onslaught from the media. It's the reason they do it.
The republican party no longer stands for much of anything globalist, but there's broad agreement on de-linking from China (haven't heard the word Chimerica in a while), the trade war at least against China, closing the border, a grand compromise ending chain migration and likely allowing the DACA kids, isolating Iran and NK, avoiding war elsewhere, and deregulation. That's enough to hold a party together.
Wow. After hiding out for a couple of months since the Russia gate collapse Inga comes out swinging. Indicative of why there is no point in compromise with these people. Facts nor figures have no impact on emotional based worldviews, which is what leftism's base is. It's why there is no center today.
Centrism imo should be based on common sense. Uncontrolled immigration is costly and harmful to civillity. Controlled immigration is beneficial. Common sense dictates? Islam is antithetical to religious freedom. Common sense dictates? Socialism, as in the means of production being controlled by the government, has proven time and again as harmful. Common sense dictates? The list goes on. ROI should dictate national spending policy. Not the screaming memies.
You can argue against methods and rethoric all day as Chuck does, but "Trumpian" ideas aren't new stuff. Most of it is basic common sense 101 and have been around for a long time.
“She just realizes her only chance at throwing all of us in jail/the ovens is tricking stupid people like Ann who are looking for the "center-center."
Now if you want an example of radical, here you are. So you think Althouse is so stupid she won’t recognize the radicals commenters like Achilles and a few others her own blog? No wonder she is embracing the Center so strongly.
Trump represents the radical center. Extremism in defense of the center is no vice. Extremist style, centrist on the inside.
Or: extremist crunchy cracker outside, squishy centrist filling. Our new favorite snackfood product. Divisively delicious.
Inga: "Now if you want an example of radical, here you are."
Nope.
"Radical" is attempting to overthrow a duly elected President.....
....and something Inga has happily supported every step of the way.
“Trump is pro-gay marriage.“
Trump will do what the religious right want him to do to get their vote. They’re going to expect more of him this time around.
It’s radical to think the President is above the Law.
This just in: Inga discovers politicians tend to deliver for their base voters.
Next up for Inga: The sky is often blue during the day.
"It’s radical to think the President is above the Law."
Nobody thinks that.
The “religious right” doesn’t give a shit about Trump’s position on gay marriage.
Unfortunately it stands only as a contrast to the other major party. But given what that other party stands for, what the Republican Party stands for is everything.
Inga: "It’s radical to think the President is above the Law."
LOL
Well, we can find out if Trump ever breaks the law!
Meanwhile, Ilhan Omar has committed tax fraud and immigration fraud and the dems have already declared illegal aliens above the law.
“Well, we can find out if Trump ever breaks the law!”
Oh lord. What dumb sychophantic naïveté. Jon Boy, you just outdid yourself.
Why can Inga very confidently assert that there are meaningful policy differences among these candidates but can’t detail even one?
Hoax Dossier Cultist Inga: "Oh lord. What dumb sychophantic naïveté. Jon Boy, you just outdid yourself."
LOL
Why dont you list the "crimes"!
We DO know what Mueller and te SDNY knows!!!
Inga is going to pretend the last 3 years never happened.
This should be fun....
what a load of crap. The GOP is wimp.
The democrats are hard hard left mother Jones Rachel Maddow bat shit crazy leftwing.
Jackasses vs Elephants vs RINOs
For those keeping track, Inga claims Trump has committed crimes, but cant explain what they are.
Inga claims Warren/Bernie are not as radical as the Lunatic 4, but cant explain how or in what policy way.
In other words, another typical Inga day.
The recent National Conservatism conference in DC (there are about a dozen or so videos of speeches there at YouTube) earlier this month was, from one perspective, an attempt to chart the post-Trump seas. I know I haven't voted for the GOP in either of the last two presidential elections (although I would've, for Mr Trump, if Oregon's situation were different).
LOL - "...Nicholas Kristof in "The G.O.P. Is Now a Personality Cult/The party no longer stands for much of anything" (NYT)..."
Well, the Democrats finally have some company - so says the Einstein from NYC - "Nicholas Kristoff". Elites just can't help themselves and are such easy targets to refute. Truly amazing what the MSM has done to their respective brands.
“Elites just can't help themselves and are such easy targets to refute.”
It’s astounding how you people believe Trump isn’t an “elite”. The guy with gold toilets...
OK, now, what are the laws Trump broke? Just list a couple. He is after all the most unlawful fascist president ever, so this should be easier.
You don't determine who is elitist by where they shit, but by who they shit on.
Next up for Inga: The sky is often blue during the day.
Not on the planet she inhabits.
IN THE WASHINGTON BLADE, A GAY MAGAZINE: Trump supporters are gay, trans, urban — and tired of being insulted. “Many LGBT Republicans had serious misgivings about Trump in 2016, and some still do. What I can tell you for sure is that many more gays in the DMV support him today because of the relentlessly hostile and unfair treatment he’s received in the media from day one.”
Via Insty.
Inga wants the Velvet Glove oldies to usher
in the Iron fist squaddies.
Keep boiling the frog slowly.
History Began This Morning Cultist Inga: "It’s astounding how you people believe Trump isn’t an “elite”. The guy with gold toilets..."
LOL
Oh! So now Trump IS a rich elitist again!!!
It seems like only yesterday when the lefty/LLR cultists were saying Trump is a fraud and is not rich at all!!
You know Inga, maybe you ought to write down your daily claims in order to improve the consistency if not the coherence of your daiy blatherings!!
It’s astounding how you people believe Trump isn’t an “elite”. The guy with gold toilets...
Who likes Mickey D’s.
So now the elite standard is gold toilets?
I guess that lets Jackie K. Off the hook because her toilets had warm water in case of splashes.
Only cold for the peons.
Not one difference Inga? You can’t name one meaningful difference between the two groups?
People might begin to think you don’t know what you’re talking about, or that you’re a liar. Then they might begin to think the same thing about the Democrats.
Inga: "It’s radical to think the President is above the Law."
LOL
But enough about Obama and the soft coup.
I think Pritzker a.k.a “Spaulding” qualifies.
Btw, my favorite part of Kristoff's Center-Right Steadying party of the past is that he and his lefty/LLR pals labeled that party as literal "nazi's".
So, what Kristoff and the left and the dems and the LLR's really want is a republican party that stands very very still when the left smears them and then asks permission of the left to go about their business.
Blogger bagoh20 said..."OK, now, what are the laws Trump broke? Just list a couple. He is after all the most unlawful fascist president ever, so this should be easier."
We all probably have our favorite Inga story. For me, it's hard to top when the Mueller Report came out and she posted "TOLD YOU SO", and then promptly disappeared for a month.
Gee. It was a nice thread before the loon crapped all over it.
A real elite gets to fire Ukrainian officials so that a son of Biden can profit mightily.
A real elite gets to set up a private server for private profit wile heading a major dept of the government, and then receive nice interviews with Rachel Maddow.
while
...Burlington College closed in 2016, crushed under the weight of debt it took on in a 2010 real estate deal. In its last five years, this tiny liberal arts school of fewer than 200 students occupied the former St. Joseph’s Orphanage (and its 33 acres, including the last virgin lakefront in town) overlooking Lake Champlain and the Adirondacks. A $10 million acquisition from the cash-strapped Catholic diocese was made while Jane Sanders, the wife of Vermont’s most famous socialist, was president of the college.
The site offered just what Sanders needed to fulfill the promise she made in 2004 to be a “transformative president.” The college’s operating budget at the time was just $3.6 million, and it had no endowment. The deal was made with a mortgage from the diocese, tax-exempt bonds, and a bridge loan from a 99-year-old philanthropist. Twelve years and three administrations later, the last president penned a letter blaming Sanders, whom the board dismissed in 2011, for sealing the college’s fate with an “appallingly inappropriate business deal.”...
Transforming to bankruptcy.
$20 Trillion under Obama.
Yes Jane Sanders is a crook.
Bernie may well not be--do you think he knows anything about a balance sheet or operations of any kind? He wouldn't even know where to begin.
So not part of the State-cult, like the Democratic party?
Via Insty: Bernie Sanders Is Finally Guaranteeing His Workers $15/Hr Minimum Wage…By Cutting Hours
Panda Express cut costs by reducing their veggie choice to basically broccoli with some cabbage. No more carrots, zucchini and mushrooms.
buwaya,
They aren't in different castes; they are the same family. In a caste system, people have great difficulty marrying outside of their caste. The idea of the "caste" doesn't fit the American experience. Anyways she got her law degree from George Washington U. That's a Private University that costs upwards of 45K per year tuition for undergrads more for law school.
If you analyze the splits, you'll note they are generational and inter-familial. That not a caste split.
Trump's clear priorities on trade and immigration make him anathema to the CoC-servatives, and therefore to the teeming hordes of the consultant class. I don't think he cares for the classic GOP Congress, especially after they decided to vote against his national emergency, Obamacare repeal, and other national priorities.
Agree completely. The problem is that there are not enough people like him who see "public service" as anything but a key to the Treasury. I have even experienced this in local government. I joined a group of reformers in our small city in Orange County. We managed to elect two reformers to thew city council. They did pretty well and encouraged us. We then increased our efforts and managed to elect two more. Once elected, they turned on us, made new friends (such as the LA Times local reporter) and went off on their own, non-reform, agenda.
Human nature, which is the reason why I am a libertarian. Not "Big L Libertarian" as they are mostly about drugs.
In a caste system, people have great difficulty marrying outside of their caste.
I’m not dating a republican!
They’re creating their own mental castes.
I’m not working with my hands! I’m not dating anyone who works with their hands unless an artiste.
It is, now, very much a caste split across your society.
You see it in corporations, very clearly.
When I started working for industrial firms in the US the management ranks had lots of engineers and even those who had risen from the blue-collar workers. This has become ever more rare, the executive ranks are now almost exclusively filled by persons who have been to elite colleges, with graduate degrees.
There is far less crossing the line now than there ever has been.
Indeed, there is far more crossing of racial lines than those of caste.
Remember that K.Conway went to college over thirty years ago.
She was, I believe, the first to go to college in her family.
Her husband was the son of an engineer and a chemist.
Things change, and they are changing faster and faster, including that thing about the hardening of your divisions.
What is it like today, this minute? It is as I say.
Seeing Red says, "I’m not dating a republican!"
We're talking about the Conway marriage. They're already married & have kids. That's kind of my point.
You’re talking caste. That’s an example.
"persons who have been to elite colleges, with graduate degrees."
Kellyann Conway has a graduate degree and went to private universities. She's not the wife of a carpenter & she's not a community college grad.
America doesn't have a heritable caste system like India. That's not to say there aren't money differences or religious differences. And I do think student debt is causing some marriage issues. People in their 20s and early 30s are reluctant to marry others with large student loans, unless they've got a good way to pay it off (medical specialist/ Big Law employment).
"You’re talking caste"
read the older comments. i'm responding to another commenter who suggested America has a caste system. I am arguing it's a foreign concept.
That's not to say there aren't other divisions. But a young woman who wants to have children in her 20s, who does not think she ought to marry someone with 150K of student loan debt? (or gambling debt or debt for buying a boat and a motorcycle?) ...that's not the same as a Brahmin refusing to marry anyone else but another Brahmin.
Kristof is an idjit.
I have led a privileged existence in a way, as American castes go.
As a Euro-foreigner and a technical professional, and having been raised haute bourgeois in a cosmopolitan society, I have more or less automatic entry into your haute bourgeoisie. As an engineer in a physical specialty (metrology, mainly) I have spent much of my time with your blue-collar technical class.
I see your class split from both ends, very well indeed. As I can, easily, normally leap the gap, I know it (the gap) very well. I know the opinions and world views on both sides.
And that’s not your only divide that I cross at will.
But your Brahmins only want other Brahmins, or would-be Brahmins.
Indeed, they never even meet anyone but Brahmins. Or speak to anyone but Brahmins.
There is an almost absolute social separation.
buwaya,
yes, I agree there may be some class or money difference. But class is not caste, and American class differences are not the class differences, of, say the UK or France or Japan. Some things are hard to get quite right if you are an alien and observer.
Living in different regions in the US may give a different perspective. Be wary of projecting coastal California cities and burbs, a very specific region, onto the entire US.
Heritable castes don't exist in the US in that way. Many Americans marry across class, religious, and racial lines.
“...read the older comments. i'm responding to another commenter who suggested America has a caste system. I am arguing it's a foreign concept.”
I’ve said for a long time now that Buwaya does NOT understand Americans or the American experience. The fact that he hasn’t become a citizen indicates he hasn’t been sufficiently invested in American culture, IMO. The US is misrepresented by Buwaya every time he attempts to explain us to us.
Class is not caste, but what you have is caste.
Your split is not entirely about income or property, though that matters.
You have wealthy plebs and poor patricians.
More analogous to ancient Rome than India, so far.
It is largely a matter of their own world-view, who they consider one of their kind.
Caste in other words.
I don’t think Buwaya fully understands Western culture for that matter. He is from the Philippines, that is his culture.
We all probably have our favorite Inga story. For me, it's hard to top when the Mueller Report came out and she posted "TOLD YOU SO", and then promptly disappeared for a month.
What you need to realize about Inga and Freder is that they do not have specific facts, only opinions. They accuse Trump of crimes but cannot name a single one. They believe Mueller had Trump dead to rights, but cannot find a specific charge. They never read original sources, only other lefty opinions.
Some of our other lefty trolls (e.g., Cookie) actually think and evaluate evidence, but not Inga. She is the perfect Democrat voter who believes what she is told to believe. She is a cultist, but projects that not others. She tries to seize the moral high ground, but her fat ass and small brain cannot climb that hill.
We all probably have our favorite Inga story. For me, it's hard to top when the Mueller Report came out and she posted "TOLD YOU SO", and then promptly disappeared for a month.
What you need to realize about Inga and Freder is that they do not have specific facts, only opinions. They accuse Trump of crimes but cannot name a single one. They believe Mueller had Trump dead to rights, but cannot find a specific charge. They never read original sources, only other lefty opinions.
Some of our other lefty trolls (e.g., Cookie) actually think and evaluate evidence, but not Inga. She is the perfect Democrat voter who believes what she is told to believe. She is a cultist, but projects that not others. She tries to seize the moral high ground, but her fat ass and small brain cannot climb that hill.
Caste is something one is born into, it’s not a political ideology, Buwaya. You don’t know that?
SF Bay Area, and NYC, are your power centers, above all. This is where your upper class, and upper caste, self defines.
Other than the specialized environments of your elite universities, this is where it exists most true to its nature, where it is the most real.
In my case I am in a unique position of having observed your people at Chez Panisse and the Black and White ball, as well as shop floors and shooting ranges.
Inga is here today to lecture “you people”. Listen up!
“Listen up!”
Indeed! And wake up too...you people!
Castes come from somewhere.
And this is America!
Who says you can’t choose to join a caste?
All you need to do is choose a cultural identity and adopt the correct attitudes.
Now, this might not get you physical admission, to the haute bourgeoisie, but you can at least image you have that.
It’s much, much easier to join the American middle class caste. Even if you are racially distinct, it is quite easy, for men anyway.
Guns and cars, beer and football used to work a charm. Guns are still excellent as a caste marker.
America doesn't have a heritable caste system like India.
No we have Harvard, Yale, Princeton.
And Trusties.
Inga wrote:
I’m here almost everyday. I read what you folks write. Unfortunately there are so few of you who still seem to be thinking rationally.
So, Inga, you're claiming to be the rational one? Really? Tell me, can a man become a woman just by wishing it, and if so, why did that only become possible recently? How many "genders" are there? I could go on.
It’s curious that you have people living six to a two-bedroom apartment in SF, working at non-profits, that have precisely the same world view as Tom “Wealth Management” Steyer, or Steve Jobs’ widow.
Those six-to-a-room nonprofit people conversely have not a thing in common with, or a lick of sympathy for, a machinist in Fremont.
The machinist is far closer, socially and in world view, to his 2-3% small-business employer than anyone in San Francisco.
And Tom Steyer despises that fellow who owns the machine shop.
Class simply doesn’t explain much.
What hath a few generations of assortative mating and gramscian damage wrought.
Kinda funny to see the single-loopers invalidating buwaya’s critique of our society on the basis of alleging he his not attained citizenship here. Like, with that magic document this magic earth will reveal to him a magical perspective that will overwhelm his foreign, caste-bound imagination.
The funny thing is that, in my little thought experiment, the Fremont machinist is probably Mexican, and the machine shop owner is probably a Sikh.
And the biggest patriot in the lot is probably the Sikh. And he backs Trump.
This is a complicated place.
And that, son, was how Trump sewed up the Mexican vote, one machinist working for one patriotic immigrant machine shop owner at a time.
—from a story I told my kid a few years hence
It is a complicated place and I welcome his comments. I find them interesting. But, I do think it's easier to understand the USA if one has travelled or lived in multiple parts of the country. Outsiders can give brilliant observations of the US, but they can also miss certain things that others might catch. We appear to disagree that the USA has a caste system similar to, say, India. I'm unclear if he thinks that, or not.
I am not invalidating Buwaya's ideas on the basis of choosing to not become a citizen. He said he was on a "side" yet he has chosen to not become a citizen. Perhaps he will change his mind in the future.
My opinion is that if one chooses to not become a citizen, one is an observer and not a participant. Why am I commenting on that in this thread? Althouse wrote a post suggesting the parties need to become more moderate. I responded that it is the duty of every citizen to act as a citizen. If the parties are not moderate, it's because the moderates are sitting it out and not participating. So, for me, what interested me about the post and thread was the question of participation. The Republic was based on the idea of citizens participating in the government. It's not a sovereignty based on subjects.
One distinct difference on domestic policy between Warren and “Omar.” One. And Inga can’t provide it.
Probably there are none on international issues either, but that’s not the question.
She has plenty of time for insults, not one second to defend her contention.
Buwaya,
I don't think there is a single "middle class." It's a country of more then 300 million people. Where would you draw the lines so that the category means something consistently? Rurals vs. suburbans? Exurban? Geography? Income level? Education? Types of education? Specific schools? (such a large country with such a diversity of schools.) Religion? Musical taste? Clothing?
Can a family making 30K be middle class? Can a family making 500K be middle class? Through in multiple other of the above different variables.
A more literary approach to this caste-class distinction is in Orwell's "Wigan Pier", chapter 8.
Granted, Orwells system is rather involved. He described himself, for instance, as lower-upper-middle class. It's no surprise this system hasn't caught on.
He does call the other dimension class, also, but its certainly not described as such.
Mine is much simpler. You have class, and you have caste. They don't always overlap, and they are measured on independent axes.
If the parties are not moderate, it's because the moderates are sitting it out and not participating.
Or one party is dominated by its crazy division. How many lefties have been harassed out of restaurants or assaulted for wearing a hat ?
The caste thing, which is Greek to Inga is also misunderstood by 4W.
This is a much better description than you will see most places.
The oligarchs, the clerisy, the yeomanry and the serfs. Pretty good description.
Christopher Lasch’s essays in The Revolt of the Elites is good background too. From the 90s but aged well.
30K = middle of second quintile. Thats your economic class right there.
Caste-wise you could have very different people in this case - struggling grad student, unionized sheet-metal apprentice, etc. You could have people with nothing in common within the class.
As for 500K, we're at the top of the top 5%. We are, in one case, talking married dink lawyers maybe, or a regulatory compliance consultant. The regulatory compliance dude's bitter enemy is the oilfield machinery manufacturer, who also nets 500K.
Now, who shares a culture and sympathies with each other, among these people?
Joel Kotkin via Insty:
...Our past generation of old industrialists may have been far more openly racist and sexist, created pollution and pockets of poverty, but they also built middle- and working-class opportunity; the oligarchs do neither. The Valley was once an exemplar of the American dreamscape but is now an increasingly narrow plutocracy dependent on non-citizen foreign labor, which constitutes upwards of 40 percent of their workforce as well as a cadre of young, largely temporary workers.
In its earlier iteration, Silicon Valley was a uniquely egalitarian place where outsiders made success and working people had decent incomes. Today, Wired magazine’s Antonio Garcia Martinez has labeled Silicon Valley as ‘feudalism with better marketing.” Despite enormous wealth, tech-driven cities like San Francisco and increasingly Seattle have become dysfunctional places, with massive homeless populations and a shrinking middle class....
If the sheet metal apprentice goes to the shooting range with his $600 AR-15 clone, and there meets the machinery manufacturer with his collectible AR which has been professionally restored, they will meet as equals, without social distinction.
That, right there, is what is distinct and unique in America, what is native to this soil, and no other. It is at its best and purest wherever powder is being burned.
Lots of good stuff coming out this week.
Where "acting white" came from.
Classroom integration wasn’t an entirely positive development for black educational prospects. That argument, completely out of vogue, needs airing amid our reacquaintance with the busing controversy of 50 years ago. When Senator Kamala Harris exposed Vice President Joe Biden’s opposition to federally mandated busing in the early 1970s, progressives congratulated her—and that’s understandable. Busing fostered the integration that many districts resisted even after the Supreme Court in Brown v. Board of Education rejected the “separate but equal” doctrine, which had condemned so many black kids to substandard schooling. Thorough studies have confirmed that busing improved the scholarly performance of countless black kids.
Certainly, the underfunded one-room schoolhouses in the old South had to go. Something else that has to go too, though: the idea that any black student is only being properly served if white kids are studying next to him. That misimpression, fostered by the school-integration movement, has yielded a disturbing by-product: a harmful psychological association between scholastic achievement and whiteness.
Well put. This is why American blacks fail where blacks from Africa or the West Indies do well.
I don't think there is a single "middle class."
There was at least 1 article a few years ago about who considered themselves “middle class.”
It stRted at @bout $20k.
That, right there, is what is distinct and unique in America, what is native to this soil, and no other. It is at its best and purest wherever powder is being burned.
It is also what college education is destroying. I was in college with the last of the WWII GI Bill students. Most were gone except grade school but they were around. That is what created the 50s classless society.
The median is around $60k, isn’t it?
"It stRted at @bout $20k."
right. & pretty much everyone labels themselves middle class.
Obviously it depends where someone lives. If one can buy a nice, ranch style-house in a safe neighbourhood for 75K, that's a different situation then what one can purchase in Silicon Valley for 1 million. At a certain point, if it cannot be defined, what is it? We can say the ranges of what it can be, but is there a consistent commonality that is not denied by another definition?
"they will meet as equals, without social distinction."
Yes and this happens in many associational clubs and religious organizations. Radio operators, model plane hobbyists, archery, judo, knitters, recipe-sharers: Many hobbyists meet and respect each other on the basis of their hobbies. The military likewise gets rid of hereditary markers and substitutes military rank.
Caste system like olde England.
"The fact that he hasn’t become a citizen indicates he hasn’t been sufficiently invested in American culture, IMO. "
Sounds like "SEND HIM BACK!" to me.
While someone in SV might consider themselves middle class from income compared to who they are surrounded by, do they consider themselves middle class mentally compared to the rest of the country?
Can they talk to a mechanic or small business owner with not their credentials, but make the same money? Someone Making the same money who lives in a lower cost area.
Knitters....not any more.
Well, in my 36 years here I have visited at least 12 states, and moreover worked with these people, doing real things. I have fixed systems in Olathe Kansas and Buffalo NY, hung out with the native breed in Austin TX and Columbia SC, and many more.
You learn far more about people when working problems than in any other way.
I have thereby acquired a deep respect for the "native" American blue-collar working man. And I have found that, concerning this type, the white American working man, a great similarity across regions and accents.
Via Insty:
JULY 21, 2019
REMEMBER, TRUMP IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE ANGRY, IRRATIONAL ONE: Video Goes Viral of Rep. Tlaib Losing It at 2016 Trump Event: ‘You Guys Are Crazy!’ “Overnight, this video has gone viral on Twitter. The reason, of course, is that it proves once and for all that Tlaib truly is nothing more or less than a radical left-wing activist, fueled by hatred and anger for those who dare disagree with her. . . . That’s bad enough as it is, considering that she’s a congresswoman, but what makes this even worse is that she truly is the face of the modern Democratic Party: angry, obsessed, bullying and out of control.” And in need of some restraint.
Nothing unites better than weapons.
Not even model railroads.
There is a liquidation of difference, where all are armed.
It is a remarkably affable, open, generous sort of society, for the short time shared on the range.
Sports? hah. Not even cars, and certainly not bicycles.
Its a thing, you have to be there.
Yes and this happens in many associational clubs and religious organizations.
There is good evidence that these social organizations are disappearing.
"Bowling Alone."
And here: another essay on the book and the phenomenon.
The SDT (Sudden Demographic Transition) began emerging in the West after World War II. As societies became richer and goods cheaper and more plentiful, people no longer had to rely on traditional families to afford basic needs like food and shelter. They could look up the Maslovian ladder toward “post-material” goods: self-fulfillment, exotic and erotic experiences, expressive work, education. Values changed to facilitate these goals. People in wealthy countries became more antiauthoritarian, more critical of traditional rules and roles, and more dedicated to individual expression and choice. With the help of the birth-control pill, “non-conventional household formation” (divorce, remarriage, cohabitation, and single parenthood) went from uncommon—for some, even shameful—to mundane. Lesthaeghe predicted that low fertility would also be part of the SDT package, as families grew less central. And low fertility, he suggested, would have thorny repercussions for nation-states: he was one of the first to guess that developed countries would turn to immigrants to restock their aging populations, as native-born young adults found more fulfilling things to do than clean up after babies or cook dinner for sullen adolescents.
Womens hobby groups, I have found, can be remarkably petty and fractious. The milk of human kindness can run there, but not without reservoirs, dams, rapids and rocks.
Ham radio operators and model plane meets.
I do think few things substitute for regular religious attendance, Hebrew school, church dinners, associated committees, walking clubs. It's a intergenerational group, and it's valuable to have that mix of generations. Also rare outside of family gatherings.
Retiring to Spain. Are you going to keep up your permanent residency in the USA? How often will you need to come back to keep it? Or are you going to give it up?
Ham radio operators and model plane meets.
Do you know who you will meet at those groups? Trump voters.
Twitter threads there will be fewer. Knitting web sites are being taken over by the left for some reason.
NetFlix stocks has crashed 12% since the big Obama deal. Chick fil A is the most popular fast food place in the country. I had never heard of it until the protests and boycotts.
"Do you know who you will meet at those groups?"
I don't find that people talk politics. Isn't that the point? The hobby unites and that is the central interest? But, putting that aside, how is this consistent with the argument that society is segmented into heritable castes?
How do people figure that different family members can vote in different ways? Family members are in the same caste, if caste has a meaning.
I don't get the dismissal of traditional women's skills but, ok, whatever. I've got a friend who spins and makes her own yarn.
Family members are in the same caste, if caste has a meaning.
Lawyers are members of the clerisy. My two lawyer kids are lefties.
Knitting web sites
You are talking about 1 internet site. We're talking about in-person meets and socialization. There's a huge difference.
But do you see my point? If divisions between husbands/ wives/ parents/ children exists, then you can say it's a division, but not a caste division. Otherwise it would contradicts the whole concept of caste.
How do you know?
That site has 8 million visitors.
We are finding out.just because it hasn’t happened, doesn’t mean it can’t. It’s already happening in Cali.
I’m talking about what happened in my family. 1 hateful pussy hatter. We seriously talked about whether to disinvite for Christmas.
I live surrounded in a blue state.
We're talking about in-person meets and socialization. There's a huge difference.
Of course there is. You don't see the difference between normal people and the activists that live on facebook and twitter,.
Here are normal people.
The Molotove Cocktail waitress Alexandria Hernando-Cortez said her bloodline gave her and all Latinos the right to wander the Americas at will with no visas, passports or papers.
That is the very definition of Kristof's "Blood and Soil".
"You don't see the difference between normal people and the activists that live on facebook and twitter,"
what are you talking about? We were having a understandable conversation and then you come up with stuff outta left field. What's that about?
I advocate for everyone to join a church and attend it once a week in addition to other church clubs or gatherings. I'm also the one that has said, repeatedly, that twitter is not representative of real life. I'm the one suggesting people attend and participate in local meetings, clubs, and get-togethers.
I'm the one who believes the internet cannot and does not substitute for real socialization.
"I’m talking about what happened in my family."
Lots of people have talked about issues, disagreements, arguments and agreeing-not-to discuss at Thanksgiving w/ relatives, children, close friends, parents. There was a thread about it around Thanksgiving.
Splits within families mean it's not a caste spit. Caste has no meaning if the family is full of different castes.
M,
His golf resort & a reception! Now that's an expensive wedding! Suitable for the thread the other day about expensive bachelorette parties.
wwww said...
Buwaya,
I don't think there is a single "middle class." It's a country of more then 300 million people. Where would you draw the lines so that the category means something consistently? Rurals vs. suburbans? Exurban? Geography? Income level? Education? Types of education? Specific schools? (such a large country with such a diversity of schools.) Religion? Musical taste? Clothing?
Can a family making 30K be middle class? Can a family making 500K be middle class? Through in multiple other of the above different variables.
The castes are ideological.
There are a group of people who think the US is nothing special. They don't believe in unalienable rights. They believe in gun control and open borders. They think the government is the answer to their problems and should determine who has what. They tolerate a massive amount of corruption in their political leaders.
There is another group of people who believe they were born with the right to say what they want. They believe what they earn is theirs and they have a right to bear arms and defend themselves. They believe all people are equal including the government and the mandarins.
This is America!
You certainly can join a caste, here.
Its done all the time.
Just profess the right religio, mores, cultura, and you are in.
Mostly.
You certainly can join a caste, here.
that's not a caste that's joining a professional organization, a volunteer group, a church, a rotary club.
“There are a group of people who think the US is nothing special.”
“In late April 2015, a month before Trump officially announced his candidacy, he spoke at an event called “Celebrating the American Dream” that was hosted in Houston by the Texas Patriots PAC, a local tea party outfit…About an hour into the program, McIngvale posed Trump this query: “Define American exceptionalism. Does American exceptionalism still exist? And what do we do to grow American exceptionalism?”
Trump replied:
I don’t like the term. I’ll be honest with you. People say, “Oh he’s not patriotic.” Look, if I’m a Russian, or I’m a German, or I’m a person we do business with, why, you know, I don’t think it’s a very nice term. We’re exceptional; you’re not. First of all, Germany is eating our lunch. So they say, “Why are you exceptional. We’re doing a lot better than you.” I never liked the term. And perhaps that’s because I don’t have a very big ego and I don’t need terms like that.”
Oh hahahahaha!
In re guns -
On a shooting range, I have found, one joins the implicit society there by default.
Total strangers offer to let you shoot their rare and exotic weapons.
All you really have to do is look upon their armaments with appreciation.
This is normal.
I have, and my boys have, in this way, shot -
Desert Eagles
Tuned competition 1911's
The .454 Casull
collectible Lugers
etc., and etc.
We are talking deadly weapons, with live ammunition.
It cannot be just that I have such a friendly and trustworthy face.
The university system is full of people who have never worked an honest day in their lives. They aren't even professors who generally work very hard. They are administrators in various "studies" schools.
These people have a lot in common with the people who populate the government bureaucracies and NGO's. They populate newsrooms in all of the major media including FOX.
They are all raised and trained and funded by the same oligarchs who put their names on all sorts of college buildings.
This bloated mandarin class is pumped full of money by the wealthy globalists and their primary goal is to tear down the institutions that made the US special.
Let us list out what makes the US exceptional:
The Concept of unalienable rights.
Due process.
Private Property.
Equality under the law.
The Bill of Rights.
Every single one of these is under assault by the democrat/CoC cuck-republican parties.
Colleges have been throwing men into kangaroo courts completely obliterating due process protections at the behest of Obama and his DOE. Kavanaugh was falsely accused of leading rape gangs with no proof whatsoever. Trump is being accused of rape by obvious liars constantly. The Russia Collusion Hoax is a tour de force of corruption and evil.
The supreme court authored the Kelo decision.
Millions of people voted for Hillary and Bill Clinton. Both are obvious criminals. Obama has been caught spying on political opponents in conspiracy with multiple foreign governments.
Hillary got a law passed to ban a movie critical of her. Citizens United struck an obviously unconstitutional law down and it is a rallying cry for every enemy of freedom.
Do we even have to mention the efforts to take away our guns?
There are two castes in this country and the money lavished on one side by the wealthy globalist elite makes the differences clear.
No, its not a social group, it is a society, a culture, a secular (or not) religion.
It is moreover an extended network of the same, who recognize each other through overt (the "left") or covert (the "right") messaging.
I have been navigating these complex questions of the nature of caste markers for decades. I, personally, easily confuse people regarding the caste markers. But then I am in this privileged position of jumping over these barriers at will.
I should, perhaps, write a book about this. Another one on my list.
We had a center-right Republican party. They called George W. a Nazi.
"On a shooting range, I have found, one joins the implicit society there by default."
Yes, it's similar to other hobbies about which people can be passionate. You could go to a Ren Faire and see similar socialization. It sounds like you go to the range more then my friends. My friends and my Dad tend to go hunting but have occasionally gone to the range. Mostly deer. One of our friends is teaching himself how to tan hides.
One of my friends doesn't let her daughter watch much screen time but she watches you tube hunting videos with her Daddy. So her toddler daughter says stuff like, "that's a good shot."
“There are a group of people who think the US is nothing special.”
“Former Democratic President Obama has said, “I believe in American exceptionalism with every fiber of my being.”
Inga...Allie Oop said...
Oh hahahahaha!
We all know Inga is a stupid person and at her core a truly dishonest piece of shit who wants to re-educate, persecute, and murder her political opponents.
Knowing that we know what to expect from her.
The full video answer that Inga refers to is here.
It is a two minute answer. Suffice to say Inga selectively quoted it and Trump is clearly foreshadowing.
This is the heart of Trump's Make America Great Again platform. Under BushClintonBushObama what made America great was being ground down and sold out.
What really pisses Inga off is we are becoming great again as a country. The people she hates are making more money and have more freedom.
Trump found that magic wand that would make manufacturing jobs come back and the economy actually grow.
The only thing it took was getting the globalists like Obama and Bush and Clinton out of power and putting the US government back into service of the people of this country.
My wife is American and my kids will remain in the US, so we will re-enter the US regularly, I expect. Which is all thats required, besides renewing the green card.
Trump doesn’t like the term American Exceptionalism, it isn’t fair to the rest of the world he says, Hahahaha!
Achilles actually thinks that Trump video helps him. Oh my lord. Not funny...sad.
"so we will re-enter the US regularly, I expect. Which is all thats required, besides renewing the green card."
Can you renew it if you move overseas and don't spend enough time per year in the USA? I'm a citizen, so I don't know. But many countries require permanent resident non-citizens to reside in the country a certain amount of time per year or they loose their permanent status. That's one of the advantages of citizenship. The passport means you can move overseas and move home again.
We used to do Ren Faire in the 90's.
And SF conventions. And game conventions. And you name it.
But its not the same at all.
One simply does not join just by showing up.
I have been here 36 years, and done some of everything.
I know you Americans extremely well.
It is a truly odd thing about shooting.
As for me shooting, at best I go twice a year, if that, and only on invitation. I don't own a gun and as far as I know the kids don't either. It certainly isn't a hobby. My true mad hobby is photography.
But shooting is definitely an American caste marker, and moreover a membership key to the "right". If you want to get one of that caste to open up, about everything in the world, drop a hint about an interest in firearms. The type is accustomed to maintaining bland silence among suspicious strangers.
Conversely, absolutely say nothing of the sort to anyone on the "left", or rather the haute bourgeoisie, or those aspirational to it. It is an excellent way to be frozen out, to be "cut", as in the antique Britishism.
Inga...Allie Oop said...
“There are a group of people who think the US is nothing special.”
“Former Democratic President Obama has said, “I believe in American exceptionalism with every fiber of my being.”
Obama also told Putin he would have more flexibility after the election.
We look at we people do not what they say.
Obama succeeded in reducing US production of hydrocarbon products driving up prices for gas and natural gas for working Americans and making his ally Putin rich.
Meanwhile Trump is opening up US production keeping gas prices down for Americans, and the petro states are not making as much as they were under Obama.
We know who's team Obama was on and we know who's team Trump is on.
Inga...Allie Oop said...
Achilles actually thinks that Trump video helps him. Oh my lord. Not funny...sad.
It does. His explanation was clear to anyone with above room temperature IQ.
He clearly meant that we didn't need to brag about being great.
He just wanted us to actually be great.
You are really just a stupid person.
“... we know who's team Trump is on.”
No, I don’t think you do.
"I don't own a gun and as far as I know the kids don't either."
I know a several friends and family who own guns and hunting rifles. Remember hunting and guns for the house are not restricted to one political party. And some people go to the range and others tend to hunt more. Some do both. Some are serious collectors. Some just have 1 handgun for the house.
In SF, and the Bay Area, and, I gather, in NYC, it most certainly is limited to those outside the caste. Those inside it don't own guns. Or it is a major faux pas to let on that they do.
This place is not like what you are used to, and, collectively, they own you. They are your real leaders, or rather masters.
And that gets to my point. You cannot understand the US without understanding those who own it. You cannot understand the US without understanding the resistance either. If you know both, and what they think, you cannot be Pollyanna.
But shooting is definitely an American caste marker, and moreover a membership key to the "right".
Yes.
Remember hunting and guns for the house are not restricted to one political party.
De minimus for the left. You may think you are correct but try to discuss it.
Inga says fake Indian high-school health teacher Warren and immigration fraud "Omar" are on your team.
More laughable, Inga thinks that "Omar" thinks she's on her team.
Inga is really living in lala land. I am sure she drooled over Obozo the Magnificent, hung on his every utterance. Well here is one utterance she will have a hard time reconciling to the present environment under President Trump.
There was a loss of 219,000 manufacturing jobs under Obozo (most of whom were probably Dem voters). He said those jobs were never coming back. He mocked Trump when he said they could, saying, what is he going to do, wave a magic wand? Abracadabra baby! By rolling back Obozo's job killing regulations and passing tax cuts, over 500,000 manufacturing jobs have been created over the past 3 years. To loons like Inga, she would rather be an ideological purist and keep these folks on welfare rather than admit error. FYI Bernie the Loon just was confronted with reality over the $15 minimum wage, but that is a story for another day`
You know, I am beginning to warm to Becky Inga’s favored candidates as long as they promise to bus her grandchildren to a
school filled with Ilhan “Omar” family members (can’t say who they are because she lied about who they are). And you know they might just do that!
Certainly you’re in favor of this proposal made by a moderate like Harris, Becky.
buwaya is absolutely correct regarding shooting ranges. I shoot regularly at my club, and my last trip I took an STG-58 and a new AR-10 in 6.5 Creedmore. I was there for 3 hours, and I think fired maybe 50 rounds myself, the other shooters there were basically lined up to try them out. I reload, so didn't mind them using my ammo, some had their own 308 ammo, so used their own. I think it is a very American, almost uniquely American, experience.
I have soured on Kristof over the last few years. He has a habit of saying "what is the matter with people for not already agreeing with me". He asserts his way of looking at things is the reasonable reference point and then criticizes those that don't stand on that spot.
Todd - I've been thinking about getting an AR chambered in 6.5, but I'm concerned about ammo availability. I have had a hard time buying ammo for my .300 Savage at various times over the years, and don't want to repeat that experience. What are your thoughts on that?
bagoh20,
"If the shit hit the fan, me and the people in this forum who you spar with would be standing between you and them with their torches and bicycle locks."
Dream on. Nobody here would push her out to face the mob, but I can't believe there are that many who would risk even a fingernail for her in that scenario. Now, given a politically neutral event with no hint of the cold culture war turning hot--say, a big traffic accident like Instapundit blogged about recently, or an earthquake or flood or something--sure. But in a situation of political mob violence where her pets are threating us? Not on your life.
Phil,
I reload, so no trouble for me, Starline and others have the brass. Field & Stream has a good sale now on 6.5 Creedmore ammo. In my opinion the 6.5, whether it be Creedmore, Swede, or Grendal will be popular for a long, long time. The long range possibilities, the current bullet selection, and the mild recoil all recommend it. I put a solid A-2 stock on both my 6.5 and 308 AR-10s, which eases the recoil to slight to negligible for the 6.5, less so on the 308. I don't think that ammo will be a problem at all. Also, Natchez Shooters Supplies has some 300 Savage (Federal) for $31.99, but 6.5 Creedmore at $17.99. Both of course for 20 rounds, so there's that, and may suggest where the market is going. Was going to the range today (I didn't get enough trigger time to fine tune my scope) until my wife decided to take a day off, now I'm cleaning the shower instead.
Phil - Not sure you're still in, but the 6.5 is a great cartridge that will be with us a long, long time. Whether you choose the Creedmore, Swede, or Grendal, the long length bullet allows for some serious long range shooting. I put an A-2 stock on my 6.5 and 308 AR-10's which reduces recoil noticeably. The ammo will be plentiful, it's already cheaper than your 300 Savage (Natchez has both and the 6.5 is half of the cost of the 300). Or, start reloading, buy a basic set up from Lee Precision, Widener has 500 bullets for the .300 at $75. Save your brass, and for less than $250 or so, you can shoot as much as you like.
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