I'm reading "Where blackface is concerned, outrage is appropriate, says UR professor," by Michael Paul Williams in the Richmond Times-Dispatch. He's quoting Bertram Ashe, who teaches English and American Studies.
Ashe said the history of blackface dates far back to about the 1830s and extended well into the 20th century. He described it as “a weird obsession with blackness that grows out of that master-slave relationship.”I found that article because I was looking for discussion connecting the Northam story to Spike Lee's movie “Bamboozled.” The movie is mentioned in the article, but not in any significant way. I haven't seen this movie (and it's not available for streaming at Amazon (I'd have to buy the DVD — and it's $89.99)), but I've seen the trailer and read descriptions, like this from The New Yorker:
“What folks don’t know is it was primarily a Northern entertainment,” he said. For Northerners who had never set foot in the South, it was a way for white audiences “to imagine what they thought black life was in Southern spaces,” he said.
“It’s a portal. It’s a space through which [white people] can behave and act in a way that is not like ordinary middle-class whites behave,” Ashe said. “It appears to be irresistible to a certain type of person who cannot keep themselves from blackening their skin and imagining a type of black persona.”
Pierre Delacroix (Damon Wayans) is the sole black programming executive at a TV network. Wanting to prove his bosses’ obliviousness, he proposes a monstrous absurdity—a “Saturday Night Live”-style minstrel show, featuring black actors, in blackface, reprising vile stereotypes. To Pierre’s horror, the show is picked up and becomes a hit, restoring those stereotypes to popular culture... The exuberant performances of the show’s stars—a comedian (Tommy Davidson) and a tap dancer (Savion Glover)... —bring out Lee’s potent theatrical paradox. The pleasure of mocking stereotypes risks perpetuating them, which is why comedy... is, in Lee’s view, a high and serious calling.But this was not a popular movie, so I think white people did not take advantage of what seems like permission to laugh at a minstrel show. And that was 20 years ago.
Blackface is a serious subject. Spike Lee made a movie about it, but it seems hard to watch because it's set up to cause us to laugh like racists and then feel horribly ashamed of ourselves. That's an interesting idea, artistically, but since we can see the trap, we can avoid it, by not watching. We're not lured in, so we don't have the experience of confronting our own corrupt heart. The professor's course sounds excellent, and it does seem to be a subject we could educate ourselves about. "What folks don’t know is it was primarily a Northern entertainment." We don't know what's inconvenient to know.
१६० टिप्पण्या:
We don't know what's inconvenient to know.
Isn't that the Democratic Party's campaign slogan?
From 1958 to 1978 the BBC broadcast The Black and Minstrel Show, which consisted of lavishly produced musical production numbers. All the male performers, and none of the females, wore blackface. After the show was cancelled, it toured on stage for many years, and was quite popular.
they thought black life was in Southern spaces
I would say it was so Northerners could feel like they were Southern slaveholders being entertained by their slaves. I doubt slave life interested many of them much.
He described it as “a weird obsession with blackness that grows out of that master-slave relationship.”
Who decides the difference between “obsession” with something, and just general human amusement with something one finds funny? Was Al Jolson obsessed with blackness, or did he find it artistically interesting? Did people crawl out of their mountain hollows and cross flooded rivers in some scene from As I Lay Dying just to get a fix for their obsession with blackface?
“It’s a portal. It’s a space through which [white people] can behave and act in a way that is not like ordinary middle-class whites behave,” Ashe said.
Isn’t that what almost all entertainment is?
“It appears to be irresistible to a certain type of person who cannot keep themselves from blackening their skin and imagining a type of black persona.”
Or covering their body in colorful makeup and doing high wire acts, or whatever people do to entertain other people and make money.
I understand that it upsets people, but I can’t help but think it’s ginned up. Still and all, it’s been ginned up and here it is, so we have to respect it.
I consider blackface to be just as outrageous as shows like M*A*S*H making veterans look stupid. Both are subjects of ridicule.
Stephen Foster was a northerner who created some great art out of imagining the life of slaves.
Gone are the days when my heart was young and gay,
Gone are my friends from the cotton fields away;
Gone from the earth to a better land, I know,
I hear their gentle voices calling, “Old Black Joe.”
Chorus:
I’m coming, I’m coming, for my head is bending low;
I hear those gentle voices calling “Old Black Joe.”
Why do I weep when my heart should feel no pain?
Why do I sigh that my friends come not again?
Grieving for forms now departed long ago,
I hear their gentle voices calling, “Old Black Joe.”
Where are the hearts once so happy and so free?
The children so dear that I held upon my knee?
Gone to the shore where my soul has longed to go,
I hear their gentle voices calling, “Old Black Joe.”
There is a touching performance of this song in the movie Barton Fink
"It appears to be irresistible to a certain type of person who cannot keep themselves from blackening their skin and imagining a type of black persona."
LOL.
An affirmative action clown tries to sound profound.
It appears to be irresistible to a certain type of person who cannot keep themselves from whitening their skin and straightening their hair imagining a type of White persona.
FTFY
I should say “enslaved persons” rather than “slaves.”
I should say “enslaved persons” rather than “slaves.”
Persons of Slavery, if you please.
As a nation we waste an awful lot of time on stupidity like this.
A picture from 35 years ago that somebody dug up? And we want to have another unproductive “national conversation” about the oh-so-serious topic it represents, that nobody was talking about before?
Right. Okay.
This reminds me of “The Labor Theory of Value.” It doesn’t make any sense but a whole bunch of people pretend that it does.
And then there's Klanface, the unamusing yet entirely culturally validated act of accusing innocent whites of being Klansmen. Al Sharpton, Tawana Brawley, the fake black church burning claims, the Duke scandal, Jesse Smollet's obscene fantasies, countless "hate crime" hoaxes -- and now the deployment of "hate crime" laws to investigate schoolyard vandalism clearly committed by Trump haters but attributed to Trump supporters.
The latter examples of Klanface have already been turned into curricula for students, lies forced en mass on captive schoolchildren to remind them of who has the power to manufacture potent race hatred and who must quietly submit to it. This the the world the Covingron kids, and everyone else, is growing up in. Stalin and Mao would blush with admiration.
With Klanface, there are no consequences, and the deeply racist modern media has your back. Nobody may even suggest that Corey Booker and Kamala Harris should avoid practicing Klanface as they not only endorse Smollet's lies but relentlessly pump up the mob. Especially, there are no consequences for the dishonest media.
In Chicago, according to police blogging, up to 20 detectives have been assigned to the investigation, in a city where 600-700 murders and 15,000 serious assaults lead to few if any legal consequences YEARLY. 20 detectives. Cops know the allegations are bullshit but they don't dare whisper the truth. Police brass are playing along with the lies.
Nobody is permitted to tell the truth about Klanface but some people are entitled to lie about it.
I laughed just as hard to Dave Chappelle's and the wayans brothers "whiteface" as I did to Robert Downey Jr. Blackface in tropic thunder.
We have to start acknowledging an ability to actually laugh at this race-baiting. It's actually the only way it goes away. Every time they turn it into an outrage they win. Every time they say one is privilege and the other humor they win by being in control of when and how the meanings can be cleaved for their benefit.
Had i been at the party i would've laughed at northam. I can't now because people like him are the ones in charge of creating the system and the stanchion on which he is now being pilloried. It's just desserts which honestly are still funny too.
The funny thing to me about the picture was that it raised the question: “Whose closet did that ready made Klan outfit come from?” Or “Whose sister had the pattern to sew one up?” Yeah, people still made there own cloths in those days, and they weren’t bad.
You can buy the DVD on eBay for $12. I saw the movie when it came out. Can't recall the whole thing but it was interesting
Skin Lightening, Brightening & Whitening: Everything You Need To Know
All women, regardless of age or ethnicity want even, clear and radiant skin because of their weird obsession with whiteneess that grows out of the master-slave relationship.
Hyperpigmentation can be exacerbated by genetics and ethnicity. For black and brown skinned women of African[sic], it’s a space through which black people can behave and act in a way that is not like ordinary blacks. It appears to be irresistible to a certain type of person who cannot keep themselves from whitening their skin and imagining a type of white persona.
And what is empire, but the worst sort of minstrel show?
Blackface today is done to play a black. What that black does would let you infer what you're up to. You can't tell from the black. The offense is idiotic.
Whiteface is a popular mountain north of Lake Placid. Popular because you can drive up it.
And Rachel Dolezal? Blackface writ large. Comedic?
Huckleberry Finn, Hemingway said it was the greatest American novel, people want it forgotten. I read it five times in college. Once on my own because I love Mark Twain, and four times for different courses, and each time there was something different in it. I still come up with new stuff from that book. Samuel Clemens lived among enslaved children as a boy, he imagined himself as enslaved and black. Is that “blackface” too? If not, why not?
The professor's course sounds excellent, and it does seem to be a subject we could educate ourselves about.
No wonder I rarely finish reading AA's long-winded posts, especially those about make-up and fashion, like this one.
For Northerners who had never set foot in the South, it was a way for white audiences “to imagine what they thought black life was in Southern spaces,”
Now I see the problem. It's the New Yorker cover again.
"it’s been ginned up"
Oh, it's definitely been ginned up. The interesting question is, was it actually planned this way, or is it just opportunistic piling-on?
Blogger AllenS said...
I consider blackface to be just as outrageous as shows like M*A*S*H making veterans look stupid. Both are subjects of ridicule.
Thanks AllenS! Your comment gave me an epiphany. I was thinking of blackface more like I did the use of Missouri negro dialect in Huckleberry Finn, which my college freshman roommate and I enjoyed using decades ago, simply because we enjoyed it. (Note - we were both from St. Louis). M*A*S*H enraged my father, who was a survivor of frightful combat in Korea. Your post gave me clarity.
I think the closest thing we have today to the modern minstrel show is Tyler Perry's ouevre. Spike Lee himself referred to it as "coonery buffoonery."
Wanting to prove his bosses’ obliviousness, he proposes a monstrous absurdity—a “Saturday Night Live”-style minstrel show, featuring black actors, in blackface, reprising vile stereotypes.
Not having viewed any of the source material, I'd have to surmise "Bamboozled" was in part an allegorical critique of Lorne Michaels' quarter century reign over what constituted mainstream late night comedy, and the role that black performers were relegated to in that insular white liberal Manhattan world.
“What folks don’t know is it was primarily a Northern entertainment,” he said. For Northerners who had never set foot in the South, it was a way for white audiences “to imagine what they thought black life was in Southern spaces,” he said.
Funny how history repeats itself?
I think that Colbert, pretending to be a conservative in order to mock conservatives was a kind of “minstrel show.” There is money to be made doing them, and there is something in human nature that loves othering people and then mocking and belittling them. He’s right about that.
Hence the meta irony here:
https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/tim-graham/2019/02/02/capehart-wont-say-alleged
@Fernandistein:
All women, regardless of age or ethnicity want even, clear and radiant skin because of their weird obsession with whiteneess that grows out of the master-slave relationship.
Thai people in particular are obsessed with lightening skin. In every corner 7/11 or Family Mart there are several shelves, if not whole aisles, dedicated to skin lightening products, and most popular media is dominated by light skin Thais. Dark skin is invariably associated with agricultural work and low social status.
(Damon Wayans)...proposes a monstrous absurdity—a “Saturday Night Live”-style minstrel show, featuring black actors...reprising vile stereotypes.
I loved him in Men on Film.
"For Northerners who had never set foot in the South, it was a way for white audiences “to imagine what they thought black life was in Southern spaces,” he said. “It’s a portal. It’s a space through which [white people] can behave and act in a way that is not like ordinary middle-class whites behave,” Ashe said. “It appears to be irresistible to a certain type of person who cannot keep themselves from blackening their skin and imagining a type of black persona.”"
I'm sure those Northerners thought themselves superior to blacks (and to Southern whites), but if that statement captures what blackface was about, what made it specifically racist? Was it always viewed as racist, at least by blacks, or did it at some point become racist?
The professor's course sounds excellent
The professor's course sounds political and ideological through and through.
"I think the closest thing we have today to the modern minstrel show is Tyler Perry's ouevre. Spike Lee himself referred to it as "coonery buffoonery.""
A minstrel show popular mostly with blacks, no?
"because it's set up to cause us to laugh like racists"
Laugh? Based on the trailer I did not see any comedy.After reading the Wikipedia summary - it is typical angry Spike Lee, with most whites portrayed as racist buffoons(klanfaces) and police eager to kill blacks. Having blacks in black face is just an attack on blacks for "acting white". It is his usual black nationalist dogma.
"I think the closest thing we have today to the modern minstrel show is Tyler Perry's ouevre. Spike Lee himself referred to it as "coonery buffoonery.""
A minstrel show popular mostly with blacks, no?
The fact that this blew up over a Med School Yearbook intrigued me. I went to Med School at almost the same time albeit in a Northern state. I don't remember a yearbook and had there been one it would not have interested me. But I do recall in Year One there was a talent review that had it been recorded and archived might have been a bit dissonant to the modern age. I was as might be imagined busy with a lot of other things that year so my shelves of memory are poorly stocked, but there was for sure a song about birth control called "Isn't Oral Contraception Grand" and a skit about the Sexual Attitude Reassessment Program based on Star Trek and featuring the Dean of Students. I was not a member of the cast btw.
The Governor of Virginia is impaled on two spikes at the moment.
1. Hypocrisy is still the Cardinal Sin of politics. Crusade against racism and have photos of you in blackface or hood? Toast.
2. Competence. Yes, on some level we still care. If you are gonna stand up there and lie through your teeth you'd better be good at it. Like that Billy Clinton fellow. Otherwise you fumble about apologizing and unapologetically retracting the apology while hinting at other things you might have done that might or might not be coming at you with an unavoidable trajectory. Burned toast.
He should take one for his team and slink off quickly. But I suppose he feels he's earned his current post damn it and is entitled to it no matter what his employers think about it.
TW
Whatever.
If Northam were an (R) - it would be a big deal. The biggest deal ever. White hoods and black face? come on.
And can we please stop with this insinuation in referring to "35 years ago" that 1984 was a hotbed of segregation and Jim Crow? Thirty-five years ago was not the 1930-60s.
I saw Bamboozled in the theater. The trailer really doesn’t do it justice. The white network executive is already steeped in black ghetto slang and dialect when Wayans walks into his office the first time. The man is living a dream of cool.
What I remember shocking me was a long stream of spliced together cartoons and movie and TV clips from the golden age of movies and tv that portrayed an endless stream black people as hopeless, feckless, lazy, shiftless, ignorant, superstitious, dishonest morons. That was the entertainment sea that we were all swimming in. And the public was OK with it. Look at the clip Meade linked to in the other thread, Butterfly McQueen as Prissy in Gone With The Wind. It was typical of the time. Or look at Al Jolson in the first sound movie, The Jazz Singer. A nice Jewish boy putting on blackface and warbling “Mammy” is the star of the show.
What all this says about today I don’t know, but Bamboozled is one angry film. I hope you get to see it.
I very consciously avoid any entertainment that wants to “teach” me about racism. I’m damn tired of it being used as a political weapon. I choose not to play.
TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — Iran’s semi-official ISNA news agency is reporting that a fire in the country’s space research center has killed three scientists.
The Sunday report quotes Telecommunications Minister Mohammad Javad Hashemi Azari Sadeq Jahromi as saying that three researchers have died “because a fire in one of the buildings of the Space Research Center burned their faces black.”
No one who lived through it can forget the positive effect of Sidney Poitier on the portrayal of blacks in film. The man was a white person’s dream of their imaginary black friend. When they were casting “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner”, who could they possibly cast as he fiance but the god-like Poitier? He’d be welcome in any liberal living room in America. LillIes of the Field! A Patch of Blue! The man was black Jesus come to redeem Hollywood from its sins.
Morgan Freeman wears Godface for his performances.
But he is not He.
Ginned up is offensive to the Irish, I believe.
Or maybe just the Kennedy Klan.
It appears that being offended has become a full-time job for many liberals.
Would a Black man and a White clansman becoming friends be a good thing or a bad thing? I already know your answer if you are a liberal. You only see things as black or white!
Not to mention In the Heat of the Night and They Call Me Mr Tibbs.
I am reading Chester Himes’s Harlem detectve novels. They are crude but t compelling. So far I like The Real Cool Killers the best. Himes’s take on Harlem in the 50s is intriguing. One thing is clear: folks felt a duty to lie to the cops. “He went that way!” (Pointing the wrong direction).
What the young men in the photo did was acceptable within their group at that time. I wonder if some of today's LARPers and cosplayers will find themselves in trouble in 30 or so years for a costume that seems fine today.
@bgates:
I loved him in Men on Film.
By far the funniest recurring skit on In Living Color.
Amadeus 48:
The man was black Jesus come to redeem Hollywood from its sins.
How could you forget To Sir, With Love, though granted it wasn't a Hollywood film. An Afro-Caribbean comes to inspire a bunch of East End toughs and loose schoolgirls. It was released in the UK about six months before Enoch Powell's infamous rivers of blood speech.
"coonery buffoonery"
Coonery buffoonery appears to be irresistible to a certain type of professor of English and American Studies who cannot keep themselves from producing coonery buffoonery.
The disconnect among the majority here, best exemplified by rhh, is due to the psychological phenomenon described in David Foster Wallace's lecture "This is Water"
Also, the debate at Oxford where James Baldwin wipes the floor with Wm F Buckley Jr.
Howard,
Do you honestly think rhhardin represents a midpoint or some constituency here?
Can you name his supporters?
Hell, I skip rhhardin more than I skip Howard.
So, about 95% of the time.
Wayans' mockery of white speech and dialect was the most racist element of that movie. Spike Lee is a hateful racist bigot.
The question is not whether or not an individual believes black face is right or wrong. The question is whether or not the liberal mob will attack and destroy you over the ultimate facecrime.
Imagine this article being written if that pic was in a Trump yearbook. If it were written, the author would be destroyed.
I subscribe to this line of thinking via Kurt Schlitchter:
The whole point of these rules is to keep people confused and afraid by arbitrary application of the rules. Consistency is a bourgeois conceit.
Sorry, it does not sound like an excellent course. Fernandistein at 8:26 and the next half dozen comments identify why.
The only Black Face I've ever seen has been in Hollywood movies from the 40s. "Holiday Inn" comes to mind. The Black Face routine in that movie makes me cringe. It also makes me cringe when black characters have to act like they are mentally deficient - such as in "Remember the Night." Both two great 40s movies in all other respects. However, I think those portrayals are educational as to the attitudes and thinking of the time. Also helps me to appreciate what Blacks had to endure.
I've seen blackface in old movies, old cartoons, and in the Boston Blackie movies of the '40s. That was then, and not now.
I am a fan of rhhardin, but I don’t endorse everything he says. But sometimes he says some really funny shit. Like that time he was on about heating his house by mining Bitcoin. Who even thinks of that? But just go back to the #metoo threads and see how popular he was. Which is not popular at all. He got a ton of pushback.
But its far easier to simplify us in order to caricature us, it’s what people who are not overly bright do. They have to keep the number of variables small or they get confused.
Do you honestly think rhhardin represents a midpoint or some constituency here?
I'm mean.
We know from Trayvon blacks are shot and lynched every single day in every city of every state in America, and this clown decides to run around dressed up as one, make-up and all?
He just doesn't get it. Out of touch. Weird and creepy. Strange.
Fire that son of a bitch! Fire his ass!
James Baldwin was a fucking genius, neither side was punching down there. Tennessee Coates would just cut off Buckley’s mic and declare himself the winner corncob style.
As time passes, those who were there die, and even those who talked to those who were there. Now the past is reconstructed. This reconstructed past is unnuanced and heightened in many ways. Slavery and Jim Crow are presented as unremmiting horrors. Blackface entertainment as some secret key to the ontogeny of today's problems. Michael Jackson imitations as disqualifying for public service.
As far as I am concerned, the only real problem I have with Northram is that he is clearly lying now.
Wow, someone mentioned Michael Jackson, a black boy who grew up to be a white girl. Reverse blackface, if you will.
Minstrel shows are bad.
Menstrual shows are worse.
Prove me wrong.
Minstrel shows were popular everywhere, they toured all over the place. Any place with a venue. In fact that is the beginning of the whole vaudeville/burlesque circuit.
I remember reading about black comedian Bert Williams circa 1900, who himself had to grease his skin darker. For some reason that "permitted" him to be pretty edgy in his monologues opening for the Ziegfeld Follies. He'd get in their faces. They'd take it from a darky.
@Marybeth "What the young men in the photo did was acceptable within their group at that time."
This was the mid-eighties. Blackface was well known as racist and unacceptable.That it was acceptable "within his group" of friends is exactly the problem.
I am sure that black people always disliked blackface, but during Jim Crow and the 70s and 80s, they didn't waste time whining about it because they cared more about voting and getting decent schools and jobs. Now that those things have been done, the talented tenth can obsess about something unimportant like past blackface.
Why is a minstrel show in black face any more racist than SNL's Black Jeopardy?
Whiteface:
Put on your costume and apply make up to your face.
The people pay, and they want to laugh.
And if Harlequin invites away Colombina
Laugh, Pagliaccio, and everyone will applaud!
Turn the spasms and tears into jokes,
The tears and pain into grimaces, Ah!
Laugh, Pagliaccio,your love is broken!
Laugh of the pain, that poisons your heart!
@ Birkel - If I post my wife in blackface, it will be condemned. If I post my wife' menstrual show, it will be applauded. There's your proof.
How come the Dems are organizing massive marches on the VA Governor's Mansion? They marched against Trump for winning the election.
Today's minstrel shows are put on by drag queens. Instead of blackface, there's an abundance of exaggerated make-up and fake boobs. Instead of blacks, women are the object of ridicule.
This was the mid-eighties. Blackface was well known as racist and unacceptable.That it was acceptable "within his group" of friends is exactly the problem
Were you an adult then? Are we going to scour the past for thought crimes? I think that blackface as a device to create a “black” character as an object of ridicule was considered racist. But in 1983? Michael Jackson was a fucking god. Thriller had come out in 1982 and was a national sensation. I remember it. I loved it. I don’t know if we have musicians today who almost completely dominate popular culture like he did. He took over Elvis’s spot, which had been handed down to the Beatles. Think Sinatra, that’s how big he was. We don’t have people today that loom that large. This is before the crazy stuff.
The point is that at the time, 1983, NOBODY was making fun of Michael Jackson. Not this guy, who probably loved his music. The joke was probably that even the KKK loved Michael Jackson.
This whole area of taboos and neuroses is purely American.
I understand it, on a surface level, but it simply does not raise any emotion.
I know to stay out of controversies, as in not to argue politics and religion at work or in social settings, but this is simple prudence when dealing with foreigners or especially with natives where you are a foreigner. Guilt? Shame? No.
I suspect it didn't, either, for most Americans even in the recent past. This seems to be the result of a powerful propaganda effort over the last forty years to erect taboos and generate anxiety.
I Wanna Be Black
I wanna be black, have natural rhythm
Shoot twenty foot of jism too
And fuck up the jews
I wanna be black, I wanna be a panther
Have a girlfriend named Samantha
And have a stable of foxy whores
Oh, oh, I wanna be black
I don't wanna be a fucked up
Middle class college student anymore
I just wanna have a stable of
Foxy little whores
Yeah, yeah, I wanna be black
Oh, oh, I wanna be black
Yeah, yeah, I wanna be black. - Lou Reed. (1978)
NOTE TO SELF:
Oso Negro and I are unlikely to enjoy the same shows.
I never liked Michael Jackson. Not popular in my circles at the time either.
Kid stuff really.
We don't know what's inconvenient to know.
I was a big fan of the Dave Chappelle's show.
I'm guessing I felt if a black guy is doing the controversial comedy it must be ok.
I don't know.
Dark skin is associated with low social status almost everywhere else, besides Europe.
India, China, Japan, Turkey, and even Ethiopia. Especially true with respect to females, with just a few exceptions its been an important factor in female beauty and status.
And it has been so for hundreds of years. At least.
@ Birkel - LOL! Who's to say? But do you accept my proof? I was thinking more of the professional grievance types, not the prurient.
Mary Poppins wore blackface and did it all while pretending to be a lowly chimney-sweep. How dare she punch down racially AND economically!
Thats not supersensifragilistiracialisocious!
Great stuff. I thought I read that blackface had a big vogue in England. Again the idea would be: what must it be like to be one of those exotic people. When Louis Armstrong did his first tour of England (chased out of Chicago by mobsters), he was surprised at how many fans he already had there. There was almost a cult of authentic jazz followers--black performers preferred. He had a habit of introducing a song by saying "we're going to go back to Africa now," and his fans didn't like this.
@ Tim in Vermont - So do you consider Lou Reed a racist? Or do the colored girls still go doo doo do doo doo do doo doo for you? There was also Patti Smith with "Rock and Roll Nigger" and John Lennon with "Woman is the Nigger of the World"! We can't denounce a Beatle, can we?
"I'm mean." It's your loss is you skip over rhhardin's posts. He's got some great one liners.
An interesting parallel would, I think, be the waves of European fads for Asian culture.
It began, probably, with the 17th century fashion for Turkish stuff, which is seen everywhere in art. Leftovers of this include the devotion to coffee and the jingling johnnies in various regimental bands. China and India followed, chinoiserie and tea and costumes and the Brighton pavillion. Yes, people were dressing up as Chinese and Indians. And of course the fad for the Near East, Orientalist art and design.
How this stuff was processed is fascinating. If you haven't seen it, run off and get "Topsy-Turvy", Mike Leigh, 1999. Gilbert&Sullivan creating and producing "Mikado". Brilliant. And it all probably couldnt be made today, neither "Mikado" nor "Topsy Turvy".
wearing the same pants
How many guys could still fit in HS pants several years after college?
I'm embarrassed to say I liked to wear similar bell bottoms in green & white in the 70's.
The British are an interesting case.
You Americans have infected them with your neuroses. They did learn PC from you, you know.
Bad, bad Americans.
It began, probably, with the 17th century fashion for Turkish stuff,
I just reread "The Count of Monte Cristo." Much of the images of the Count were about his "oriental" practices and manner of dress. It was written in the early 19th century. Those who have seen the movie have an entirely incorrect impression of the story.
I can see that "Bamboozled" is available used, but my point is that it seems to have been taken off the market. Why would any of Lee's movies not be currently available? It feels like censorship to me.
Consider the Bugs Bunny - Daffy Duck dynamic.
Dark skin is associated with low social status
It is also characteristic of northern climes. Vitamin D is the reason. The colder the climate, the lighter the skin.
I've never had any interest in blackface. It was before my time. Michael Jackson was a weird and talented guy, The wish to imitate him may have had different roots than the wish to mock black people......Michaell Jackson is a problematic figure. He was very talented, but he was almost certainly a child molester. Unlike Bill Cosby, he never lost significant support in the black community. Some of the black leaders who were effusive in their support of Michael Jackson during his trial should be questioned about that support...... Sometimes you see Katherine Cleaver on talk shows. No one ever asks her about her child born in North Korea and her admiration for the regime there......It's best to concentrate only on the things white people got wrong.
It doesn't surprise me that you are having a hard time finding Bamboozled. The target of the mockery in the film is pretty much the types of people who run Hollywood.
It's official.
I hate SDaly.
Sorry dude.
Not sorry.
:-)
The pants picture is going to end Northam, I think. I imagine such pants were fairly common in the 1970s, but having him show up with them pretty much nails him on lying yesterday.
What about orange face? Althouse likes it when SNL does that.
The point of course is mockery. Was Northam mocking blacks? I don’t see proof of that just from the photo. Minstrel shows though we’re mockery.
Obviously I don’t consider Lou Reed a racist. Stephen Foster was likely no special racist by the standards of his time, but today, he would probably take a fair amount of deprogramming before he could be allowed outside.
Its true that modern readers (and modern interpreters for the masses) have a problem with 19th century lit. Or earlier lit. Or anything before yesterday, these days. They have not absorbed enough to make sense of the context. Its hopeless, for them, to read Mark Twain or Dickens.
I remember asking a High School English teacher, in a prestigious "academic" high school mind you, where a child of mine was starting, about whether they would do Dickens. The look of panic was its own answer.
There has been a near-complete cultural split in the US, between even the 70's-80's, and today. Thirty-forty years ago people were closer, culturally, to 1830, and could understand it, they could get the humor in Dickens, than today's kids are to 1980. Its a different world. Most commenters here are old, they remember a world that no longer is, they havent got a background in modern academic conditions, in order to compare.
I don’t see proof of that just from the photo. Minstrel shows though we’re mockery.
What I see from the Zerohedge (Obama’s CIA says they are Russian Disinformation) link above is that he’s a liar. I think that he should have owned it. If I had a pair of pants like that, I would probably remember them today.
What I remember shocking me was a long stream of spliced together cartoons and movie and TV clips from the golden age of movies and tv that portrayed an endless stream black people as hopeless, feckless, lazy, shiftless, ignorant, superstitious, dishonest morons. That was the entertainment sea that we were all swimming in. And the public was OK with it.
Well put.
You could probably splice together an endless stream of clips of black people being dignified, noble, heroic, or simply human, from the same sources. Selective sampling is a propaganda technique.
There are some songs in the Irving Berlin catalogue that his estate has taken out of circulation. "Do what the darkies do....and shake your blues away" has not been retired, but I don think it's been recorded in the last fifty years or so. Catchy tune, but the lyrics haven't aged well......Black music has has had a profound influence on American tastes in music, but the reverse is also true. Hoagie Carmichael studied music with a black jazz artist, Hoagie Carmichael explicitly wrote music for Louis Armstrong at Armstrong's request. Those songs were big money makers for Armstrong.......Michael Jackson was the most talented dancer of his era. I think the fedora hat that he wore was a nod towards Fred Astaire. We've all been imitating each other for quite a while now..
The right has been blinded and its only concern is that the proggies get to keep their vision of ultimate destruction.
Get to fightin' or get out of the way.
One point about all the European waves of Asian fashions, of the 16th-19th centuries, is that they were NOT mockery. We would call it "cool". In its time this stuff was the in thing. When Louis XIV dressed as a Turk, he was not mocking Turks.
Turn over the damn temple tables!
Granted, Mozart was mocking Turks, in "Abduction from the Seraglio".
Blogger tim in vermont said...
"As far as I am concerned, the only real problem I have with Northram is that he is clearly lying now."
The only problem I have with Northam is that he is a pediatrician who wants to kill babies.
Granted, Mozart was mocking Turks, in "Abduction from the Seraglio".
But the Pasha ended up being the good guy at the end.
And Terry Gilliam was also mocking Turks in "Munchausen" in 1988.
Another movie that couldnt be made today.
tim in vermont said...
"Obviously I don’t consider Lou Reed a racist."
Not following you here, tim. Didn't Mr. Reed say he wants to be black because of his stereotypical view that black men are all pimps, with a "string of foxy whores"? How did that get to be non-racist?
Right, Jupiter. “That’s not funny!”
Nobody is allowed to use irony anymore. And any irony one may have used in the past can and will be used against you.
I am reminded of Norman Mailer and the White Negro. Since at least the 50's, there has been a notion popular in the white counter-culture, that blacks just naturally are what the white beatnik, existentialist, hippie, etc is striving to become. In this telling, black people live in an idyllic state of immersion in the moment and in raw, bodily sensation, while white people are uptight assholes who live in their heads.
I didn't say it wasn't funny. And I am not finding fault with Lou Reed. I think you have forgotten that on this blog, I am an out racist, who thinks you're all racists too, you just won't admit it. Hell, I wouldn't admit it anywhere but here. I'm not immune to Left Fascists. I've got to earn a living.
@Jupiter,
am reminded of Norman Mailer and the White Negro.
"I'm dreaming of a White Negro,
With ev'ry Kwanzaa card I write..."
The use of "spaces" in academic jargon is so obnoxious to me. That being said, the professor makes some thought-provoking points.
The idea that blackface was a form not only of stereotyping but of giving oneself license to act differently than normal reminds me of the fool from medieval times. Because he was a fool he could say and do things no one else could get away with. There is a liberating element to stepping into someone else's "character." I don't know if it is possible to do that without also stereotyping, since you are playing a character by definition that you do not know well yourself.
I'm sure someone has made this point before, but in that regard I wonder if gangsta rap is a modern form of minstreling. Self-stereotyping black artists produce a genre that is overwhelmingly made up of cliches and white suburban teenagers gobble it up. The genre glorifies violence, wealth, and sexual prowess in a way that most of its consumers will (hopefully) never live out in their own lives, so it becomes in that sense a form of vicarious trangression, much like blackface was in its heyday. Even if for some of the artists the music is an attempt to give expression to their reality, for most of the audience it's coming from another world. Maybe the Spike Lee movie was a backhanded reference to rap and its popularity outside the black community?
I say again:
Gov. Coonman is the one in the KKK outfit. That's why the media sent everyone down the blackface rabbit hole.
If Northam had skipped the blackface and just worn the fedora, maybe people would have thought he was imitating Fred Astaire, and the whole joke would gave been ruined. Why would Fred Astaire take a Klanswoman to the party?......I heard some commentators note that Northam remarked how difficult it was to remove shoe polish from your face. They took this remark to mean that he was extensively acquainted with the experience of blackface. The more likely explanation is that at some point during his military career he spit shined his shoes and was acquainted with the difficulty of getting the Shinola stain off your finger. I hope this clears up the misunderstanding, and Northam can now get back to the serious work of being Virginia's Governor..
“What folks don’t know is it was primarily a Northern entertainment,”
That would explain why I thought it was so weird to see that this photo was taken in 1984.
I was born and raised in Atlanta and graduated high school in 1970. I couldn't remember any blackface whatsoever. Not even as Halloween costumes. That this was some Northern phenomenon would explain it.
"Blackface is a serious subject."
No, it isn't, unless you buy into kissing black race baiiters' assess. And who's more of a racist son of a bitch than Spike Lee?
I lived in the neighborhood in Brooklyn where he filmed "Do the Right Thing."
Yeah, the right thing is to loot and torch white busineses. What a fucking piece of shit Spike Lee is, Althouse. Why are you suggesting we need to kiss that murderous bastard's ass? He made a movie, professor, advocating arson and murder in my neighborhood.
Blackface is just theatrical makeup. So, an actor can change personna. Fuck murderous black racist pieces of shit like Spike Lee.
Senator Elizabeth "Paleface" Warren condemns the evils of blackface.
If you think Lee's movie set in Ft. Greene park was just storytelling, consider this:
Ft. Greene has actually been mixed for 45 years or more, with Chinese, Indians and whites.
Lee has become something of the go to guy for the NY Times on any issue relating to "gentrifcation" and Brooklyn. Lee has always made it clear that he thinks black gangs have the right to use violence to drive out the "gentrifiers" because Ft. Greene belongs to blacks.
Lee is fucking violent black hoodlum with deep connections to black gangs in Brooklyn. He's Al Sharpton with a camera.
I see resignation or removal in his future. Seems there's just too much pressure. There's something clumsy about how he's handling this (kind of reminds me of Gov Bentley of Alabama), or there's just no good way, I'm not sure. I haven't done enough reading. People speculated on here what the next "it" thing is that will get people in trouble. My prediction is strip clubs.
@Eleanor: Yes, drag mocks womanhood. But don't tell the conservatives who get off on cheering Milo's drag, because they pout when you deflate their virtue-signaling.
@Althouse: Spike Lee's films are, sort of unusually, owned by his small production company, so he decides how they are distributed. He is not censored and his less art-school work is available on the usual streaming sites. He has, though, claimed that he was drummed out of Hollywood because of "TheJews." In reality he makes lots of money working the academic/film school/ awards circles, so it may actually benefit him to make some of his films less accessible, the way lame academic books nobody reads cost $300 yet are bought by the thousands by college and university libraries. In fact, you can probably find all of his films at your school's library or film department -- and many other interesting and obscure films.
@Shouting Thomas: yes, he is a virulent racist. He openly advocates violence against whites and routinely accuses whites of imaginary injuries to blacks. He grotesquely misrepresents the history of interracial violence, is a major denialist of the vast crime wave perpetrated by blacks against other blacks and whites over the last 50 years, and he fetishizes violence against whites in many of his films and began carefully, specifically degrading white females after backlash regarding some of his interracial romance pieces. He had to pay a big settlement for advocating violence against people during the Trayvon Martin travesty. He should have had to make more payments to more people. he only had to pay some of the people against whom he literally rallied a violent mob.
So, maybe he deserves the title Klanface.
Everything possible has been said ,I guess.
This guy is a turd,for many reasons. Kinda hope he does not resign. Stand up to the hysteria. Set a precedent.
Maybe he is forced out later for some normal crime or incompetence.
In California, we got rid of Gray Davis and installed Arnold. Out of the frying pan, into the fire.
eddie willers said: "That this was some Northern phenomenon would explain it."
I have 60 years in a triangle stretching from Pennsylvania to Northen Virginia. I've never seen a live person in blackface - it's only been in national media.
When academics make statements, they should have data, sources, and methodology to explain why they said whatever it was. If they don't have that, then the information is just anecdotal.
This thread is hilarious. All the usual suspects coming out to say how "Outraged" they are by black-face.
Look, I'm in favor of *anything* that gets white people to stop putting on black face. Its annoying and weird. So, if calling it racist gets the job done - hurrah.
BTW, Groucho didn't do minstrel shows because his comedy was a very bad fit. Jolson did it in movies and its distracting and odd. You keep wondering why he slapped black makeup on. Of course, I'm not a big fan of Jolson anyway. I think he became a star because very few people went into show-biz back then. It was a small talent pool.
Probably noted by others. The Gov is not in the picture. Another guy, shorter than Gov is in blackface. KKK person is shorter than black face guy.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/02/smoking-gun-northam-college-photo-shows-man-in-same-plaid-pants-as-the-blackface-kkk-yearbook-photo/
People seem to forget that the Hays Code forbade racial epitaphs and showing other races in a bad light.
That's why you rarely saw a black person shown as a crook/bad guy after 1935. If they were shown as lazy or stupid it was always for comic effect. step n fetch it was COMEDY. Butterfly McQueen is a comic character and a counter point to all the other Blacks in GWTW who are show in a positive light.
I consider blackface to be just as outrageous as shows like M*A*S*H making veterans look stupid. Both are subjects of ridicule.
Agree -Vets have a right to complain.
BTW, every Korean I've met hates MASH - both the movie and TV show. Both treat a war that killed 10% of all Koreans and split their country apart as a laugh riot.
rcocean@1:54PM "It was a very small talent pool" LOL! Completely the opposite. Just think of vaudeville in towns and cities across the country, and all the acts and performers. Think of all the tough boys who were dancers, Jimmy Cagney, George Raft, George Murphy and many more. Triple threats, they sang, danced and acted. Far more well rounded entertainers generations ago, and they had to be because the competition was good and deep. Not so, today. Any movie star could be replaced by a YouTube personality and no one would notice.
Your comments about Jolson are equally ignorant. There are stories of him arriving late to the theater and putting his makeup on onstage, talking to the audience, and he'd get ovations for it. There isn't a single performer of that era, white, black or other, who doesn't rate Al Jolson the greatest entertainer of his age.
Spike Lee has made some good movies:
She's gotta have it.
School Daze
Mo Better Blues
Jungle Fever
He started going down the wrong path with Malcolm X and became boring.
William said...
If Northam had skipped the blackface and just worn the fedora, maybe people would have thought he was imitating Fred Astaire, and the whole joke would gave been ruined. Why would Fred Astaire take a Klanswoman to the party?....
Wasn't him.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/02/smoking-gun-northam-college-photo-shows-man-in-same-plaid-pants-as-the-blackface-kkk-yearbook-photo/
Blackface is a serious subject
Today blackface is used to mock the incredibly stupid black leaders of the last 40 years. It's a serious topic because whites virtue-signal by how stupid a black they can pretend to take seriously. The stupider, the more virtue.
So blackface of oourse is a serious subject to those whites. Otherwise their virtue crumbles.
Also it keeps those black leaders in position. You wouldn't want a smart black there.
“What folks don’t know is it was primarily a Northern entertainment,” he said. For Northerners who had never set foot in the South, it was a way for white audiences “to imagine what they thought black life was in Southern spaces,” he said.
Anyone who spent anytime listening/reading Thaddeus Russell understands this argument. The post-Civil War era was a Victorian time where strict social conformity was oppressive to many of the nouveau-riche. Blacks were seen as lazy and sexually promiscuous. Minstrel shows and blackface were a way for decent white folk to fantasize about living a carefree and hedonistic lifestyle.
http://www.thaddeusrussell.com/renegadehistory/
rh to AA: "Blackface is a serious subject"
It's a serious topic because whites virtue-signal by how stupid a black they can pretend to take seriously.
Was somebody just saying rh isn't worth reading? Feh. He just expressed in one pithy sentence what I was winding up to gas on about for three or four paragraphs. Packed in every nuance of the response I was going to make to the exasperating paragraph that followed the sentence he quoted above, too.
I'm mean.
Lol.
I think I have Bamboozled on DVD. I remember it as a good movie, but I haven't seen it in a long time. Maybe I'll watch it again.
Coal dust-face is first and foremost a point of leverage and second as a racket for profit under Pro-Choice/diversity.
Settle this... Guild and Howard will slap on blackface, head over to Oakland and sing Mammy, for the gathering crowd. Then they can report back to us just how the bros take it. Bets???
@ Tim in Vermont I was 22 in 1984 as Northam was graduating from med school. In NYC crime and race were hot topics - so it is hard for me to imagine anyone doing black face as a way of honoring a singer. Guess we just disagree on this.
As noted by Fullmoon, Northam is not the man in the pants in the Zerohedge photo. Northam is the guy in the plaid shirt. The guy in the plaid pants has a unique side puff hairstyle that kind of matches the blackface man in yearbook photo. Zerohedge's photo actually supports Northam's claim that he is not in the yearbook photo. I find that crazy. I had assumed he was lying about it not being him in the photo. Such a unique costume and you can not remember if you were the one wearing it. Now I suspect that the photo was on his page as some kind of inside racist joke having to do with his nickname. Northam probably thought it would all come out, but then his old friends promised their silence so he changed his story.
Blackface tells us what it would feel like to be amusingly deplorable.
Cacimbo **2 said "Now I suspect that the photo was on his page as some kind of inside racist joke."
I'm thinking Northam took the photo. Who knows? At that time, you had the photos you took developed. You didn't make extra copies very often.
Since liberals demand Civil War monuments be removed, so must Northam. It's not the act, but the symbolism.
Ann Althouse said, "I can see that "Bamboozled" is available used, but my point is that it seems to have been taken off the market. Why would any of Lee's movies not be currently available? It feels like censorship to me."
I've only seen one Spike Lee movie. It was the first one he made and I saw it in the theatre in 1986. I enjoyed it.
It had no racist themes at all. It wasn't political (or at least I don't think so). It was a fun movie. And I'm pretty sure it was made on a very low budget.
Anyway it's easy to find today. It's streaming on Netflix now. You can buy the DVD on amazon for $14.
So it's an interesting question why "Bamboozled" isn't available.
Except that's not true. It's on Netflix. If you're a member you can get the DVD in a few days.
It's strange how some movies sort of fall through the cracks. Mighty Aphrodite was hard to find for a while. Right now I cannot find a recording of Vanessa Redgrave as Rosalind in As You Like It anywhere. I even emailed the RSC.
I liked inside man, which was more of a caper film, with some social commentary re the mcguffin at the heart of the story.
What if you wear blackface and your Black character is highly admirable, or even heroic? Are you still a terrible human being?
"There isn't a single performer of that era, white, black or other, who doesn't rate Al Jolson the greatest entertainer of his age."
Its sorta neat that Al Jolson still has fans!
Guildofcannonballs said...
The right has been blinded and its only concern is that the proggies get to keep their vision of ultimate destruction.
Get to fightin' or get out of the way.
Amadeus 48 (9:21) nails it.
Lee's montage at the end of Bamboozled is a brilliant, powerful, damning indictment of how, for decades, Hollywood used its power to demean African Americans in films and cartoons. At first, it's curious to watch, then sad - yet it keeps going - until it's sickening to see. Hollywood, more thsn any other entity in America, is responsible for creating and re-enforcing stereotypes of blacks that have, and still, exist today.
I've never been able to watch an entire Spike Lee joint, mostly because his characters don't converse so much as stand on a soap box and orate.
I watched the clip. I assume Mel Brooks decided not to sue the producers over a film that grossed $2,463,650 at the box office on a $10 million budget (per Wikipedia)
टिप्पणी पोस्ट करा