I'm noticing:
"Trump just hired a deep-state conspiracy theorist as his lawyer. Here’s what Joe diGenova has said" (WaPo): "Genova... told Fox News Channel in January that the [Mueller] investigation is 'a brazen plot to illegally exonerate Hillary Clinton and, if she didn’t win the election, to then frame Donald Trump with a falsely created crime. Make no mistake about it: A group of FBI and DOJ people were trying to frame Donald Trump of a falsely created crime.'" Much more at the link.
And:
"The Monmouth University Poll... finds a large bipartisan majority who feel that national policy is being manipulated or directed by a 'Deep State' of unelected government officials.... Few Americans (13%) are very familiar with the term 'Deep State;' another 24% are somewhat familiar, while 63% say they are not familiar with this term. However, when the term is described as a group of unelected government and military officials who secretly manipulate or direct national policy, nearly 3-in-4 (74%) say they believe this type of apparatus exists in Washington...."
That is, the Washington Post is trying to delegitimatize diGenova by pinning a term on him that people might not understand, but that, if they did come to understand, would probably cause them to support diGenova. So not only does WaPo not hurt diGenova (and Trump), as intended, it gives higher profile to a relatively unknown term that has the power to sharpen awareness and concern about the very problem that diGenova is trying to warn us about, and we can see from the Monmouth poll that people are very receptive to that warning.
ALSO: Another term in play there is "conspiracy theorist." If we're going to throw that term around, isn't diGenova's "conspiracy theory" a conspiracy theory about a conspiracy theory (the theory that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians)?
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Only loosely related, but there was another school shooting, this time Great Mills High School in St. Mary's County, Maryland. Shooter has not been named, which I applaud. Two students wounded by the shooter, but in contrast to Coward County the school resource officer engaged the shooter in a gunfight and ended the shooting "almost immediately." Shooter has died of his wounds.
Interesting contrast to Sheriff Israel and his deputies in Parkland.
And On Deck, Ted Olsen, the ultimate insider (and perhaps the great lawyer that Trump needs at this point.)
Anyone in today's world who's not a conspiracy theorist hasn't been paying attention.
Including military in the Deep State definition is necessary perhaps, but will bring out a completely different group. They have been around for decades, and are firmly convinced that we live in some sort of military dictatorship, or at least militarist society. These are the people you still sometimes see protesting at the Post Office on April 15th that "Half you taxes go to the military!" Hasn't been true since JFK, but no matter.
Yes, the "Deep State" exists. Everyone who lives in and around Washington, DC, is aware of people who float from government job to government job, no matter what party holds the White House. Generally their politics are well to the left of center, so they tend to bob upward (fail upward) when Democrats hold the presidency, but hunker down at the same level (not necessarily in the same agency) when Republicans are theoretically in charge.
Few Americans (13%) are very familiar with the term 'Deep State'
Then they're not paying attention or they are only watching the MSM and late-night comics for their news. Or maybe they call it 'shadow government.'
Whoops. I was behind the curve again. Ted Olsen will not be getting into the Trump case, per his law firm.
"Few Americans (13%) are very familiar with the term 'Deep State'"
Yes, but they well understand the term "those idiots."
I think deep state is not so much about conspiracy as just the fact that the vast majority of career government folks are left of center and are there no matter which party is in power. It's (one reason) why I'd advocate moving government departments from Washington to small towns that have seen significant population loss in places like Iowa. It could boost those communities and connect more Americans with their government while at the same time stopping the stranglehold people in DC have on our lives.
We are all Shachtmanites now.
Shachtmanites believe that the Stalinist rulers of Communist countries are a new ruling class distinct from the workers and reject Trotsky's description of Stalinist Russia as a "degenerated workers' state". . - Wikipedia
Yeah, I would say that this applies to our "democracy" as well.
Shachtmanites also believe in "the concept of 'bureaucratic collectivism,' the idea that the USSR was ruled by a new bureaucratic class."
Yeah, I would say Max Shactman was right on both counts.
"A group of FBI and DOJ people were trying to frame Donald Trump of a falsely created crime."
Add Obama and Clinton to this cabal.
Lefties are confident that the 'Deep State' is a George Soros/Globalist scheme that serves their interests. That's why they don't mention it. If they thought it was even a tad bit conservative, you'd be hearing about it every ten seconds.
Genova... told Fox News Channel in January that the [Mueller] investigation...
I don't think it is correct for you to insert "[Mueller]" in there. The full quote makes it clear he is including parts of the investigation that started before the election, and therefore well before Mueller got involved. It doesn't change your point, but I do think it is inaccurate.
"Anyone in today's world who's not a conspiracy theorist hasn't been paying attention."
Yes, indeed. You cannot be too paranoid.
"I think deep state is not so much about conspiracy as just the fact that the vast majority of career government folks are left of center and are there no matter which party is in power."
An example of insufficient paranoia.
If diGenova is a conspiracy-theorist because he thinks that some in the Justice Department aren't treating his client fairly, then wouldn't any defense attorney who believes his client over the police be a "conspiracy theorist"? For that matter, if you think that you're innocent, wouldn't you want a conspiracy theorist like that defending you?
Also, all sorts of news organizations are repeating the line that diGenova is a conspiracy theorist. It's almost like they're all conspiring with each other.
DiGenova authored the big article in the current Hillsdale College Imprimis, where he makes all those points. Fair bet that Steven Miller saw it and brought it to Trump's attention?
Everything he says about the leadership of the Obama intel agencies and DoJ is obviously largely true. WaPo is, once again, insulting my intelligence by claiming otherwise.
The fact that Brennan, Clapper, McCabe, Ohr, Strzok, Page, Comey, Powers, Rice, Lynch and others were and are conspiring against Trump with what so far appears to be a largely manufactured case, or that Mueller really does appear to be on a witch hunt, does not disprove the Trump "collusion" narrative that is so near and dear to WaPo's heart. Absence of evidence (of Trump/Russia conspiracy) is not evidence of absence. Maybe there is something there that we haven't yet been shown.
But, when they lie to me about the one, they reduce their credibility about the other.
If we're going to throw that term around, isn't diGenova's "conspiracy theory" a conspiracy theory about a conspiracy theory (the theory that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians)?
Yes. The Left has promoted several conspiracy theories in recent history (the JFK assassination being the most notable). Traditionally, if their conspiracy theory doesn't pan off, they are permitted to simply move onto the next. But in reality, JFK was killed by a left-wing extremist. This reality was twisted over years to where the prevailing story was that JFK was killed by shadowy right-wing forces. That took quite an academic/media conspiracy.
Until now, it seems. Either Trump colluded with the Russians to decide the 2016 election, or the Democrats colluded with media and intelligence agencies to manufacture a myth. One of these is likely true.
"the concept of 'bureaucratic collectivism,' the idea that the USSR was ruled by a new bureaucratic class."
That was (also, I guess) Milovan Djilas. Look for "The New Class".
The actual American "deep state" is something very much like it.
Very influential in its day.
Journalists tell you that JournoList wasn't a thing, even though their list of members and emails was exposed. Journalists are fucking liars.
I think deep state is not so much about conspiracy as just the fact that the vast majority of career government folks are left of center and are there no matter which party is in power.
I wish it were that benign. Unfortunately, the Deep State involves both major parties and doesn't give a hoot about issues, on the whole. They are behind the scenes, pulling strings and making sure their domain is secure. Hell, yes, it also involves the military.
This reality was twisted over years to where the prevailing story was that JFK was killed by shadowy right-wing forces. That took quite an academic/media conspiracy.
This is bullshit. The prevailing story is that Oswald acted alone. There are several prevailing conspiracy theories about JFK, both left and right wing. Some say the Cubans or Russians engineered it, or the Mafia, or the CIA among many others.
mockturtle, 2:58:
"Anyone in today's world who's not a conspiracy theorist hasn't been paying attention."
Fair point, but for a lot of conspiracy-hobbyists the main rule is a sort of anti-Occam's Razor: The most complicated explanation that can possibly be tailored around the known facts is likely to be true. Also many beloved "theories" are designed to be non-falsifiable, making them not theories at all.
Darrell said ...
Then they're not paying attention or they are only watching the MSM and late-night comics for their news. Or maybe they call it 'shadow government.'
I was at a lecture back in January, and the speaker made a clear distinction between deep state and shadow government. The deep state is what we're talking about here.
But the shadow government, according to the speaker, is something much more nefarious. The shadow government is the folks who hide all of the stuff from us on the guise of "national security."
Let me give you an example. There was all of this hue and cry before Nunes released his first memo. According to Rothstein, the memo contained some things that would jeopardize the work that the FBI/DOJ do to keep us safe.
And then we see the memo, and there was nothing in it whatsoever that would give our enemies any clue as to how we collect or process intelligence. This is the shadow government in all its glory. Rothstein didn't want the memo released because it would make the FBI look bad. End of story.
If our enemies could draw any conclusion from the Nunes memo, it is that our FBI is partisan, overly and unjustifiably secretive, and corrupt.
I submit that that unjustifiable secretiveness pervades the bureaucracy inside the Beltway. What the peons—i.e., the taxpayers—don't know, won't hurt them.
Which is worse, the deep state or the shadow government? Given that both exist all over Washington, it's not one or the other. The combination imperils the Republic.
Social democratic Shachtmanism, later developed by Shachtman and associated with some members of the Social Democrats, USA, holds Soviet Communist states to be so repressive that that communism must be contained and, when possible, defeated by the collective action of the working class. Consequently, adherents support free labor unions and democracy movements around the world. Domestically, they organized in the civil rights movement and in the labor movement. Social democrats influenced by Shachtman rejected calls for an immediate cease-fire and the immediate withdrawal of U.S. forces from Vietnam, but rather opposed bombings in Vietnam and supported a negotiated peace that would allow labor unions and government-opposition to survive. Such social democrats helped provide funding and supplies to the Solidarity, the Polish labor union, as requested by the Polish workers.
Here, the Civil Rights movement, including, oddly enough, the ALCU has been utterly co-opted by the "deep state," but there do appear to be some signs still of resistance in the labor movement. Tendencies that Trump exploited in his past election, and he continues to drive wedges between labor and the Democrat wannabee one-party state. Trump as Lech Walesa.
I think deep state is not so much about conspiracy as just the fact that the vast majority of career government folks are left of center and are there no matter which party is in power.
This is also bullshit, especially when you consider the agencies most identified with the deep state. The "vast majority" of intelligence, law enforcement, and the civilian workforce of the military (not to mention the uniformed military) are not left of center. Maybe you find more left of center people in agencies like HUD, HHS, Education or EPA, but they usually aren't considered part of the "deep state"
I also see that The Washington Examiner describes Joe DiGenova as a "white-collar attorney."
What is this about?
Do lawyers wear differently colored collars at their annual conventions to indicate their areas of practice, or something?
Fair point, but for a lot of conspiracy-hobbyists the main rule is a sort of anti-Occam's Razor:
Occam's Razor is not very helpful when you have information deliberately withheld. For instance, it just came out that Strzok was a friend of the FISA judge who approved some of the wiretapping of the Trump people. This had been redacted for 'national security' reasons.
You know what else was "redacted for national security reasons"? The name of the person who suggested that Strzok and Page meet the judge at a dinner party to not raise eyebrows. By the way, Fusion GPS met with the famous Russian lawyer before and after the Trump Tower meeting in the exact same way. In his testimony , the Fusion founder downplayed the meetings because he said other people were there and it was just a dinner party, one of two that Fusion gave for "clients" in the space of a week, both attended by the Russian lawyer.
This stuff stinks, and asking for honest explanations is not to be hawking a "conspiracy theory."
Freder said: "The prevailing story is that Oswald acted alone. There are several prevailing conspiracy theories about JFK, both left and right wing."
That's a whole lotta prevailin'. One wonders who will prevail.
Dear Freder, you are lying. Period.
That's a whole lotta prevailin'. One wonders who will prevail.
Former Los Angeles District Attorney Vincent Bugliosi estimated that a total of 42 groups, 82 assassins, and 214 people had been accused in various Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories.
This is also bullshit, especially when you consider the agencies most identified with the deep state. The "vast majority" of intelligence, law enforcement, and the civilian workforce of the military (not to mention the uniformed military) are not left of center. Maybe you find more left of center people in agencies like HUD, HHS, Education or EPA, but they usually aren't considered part of the "deep state"
Ha! Reject first! Ask rhetorical questions later! Classic.
We are talking about the leadership of these agencies. For instance, both Mueller and Comey were proteges of Eric Holder. You can google up "Brothers in Arms" in the WaPo if you want to read about it.
" the prevailing story was that JFK was killed by shadowy right-wing forces. "
This was indeed the cutting edge belief in left-media. I was, for instance, an avid reader of the San Francisco Bay Guardian (till its sad demise), and this was typical.
Besides this was a general inclination to emotionally blame - Dallas, the state of Texas, guns, people who liked guns, Republicans, right-wingers including General Walker, whom Oswald tried to assassinate, etc. and etc.
Check out Oliver Stones movie JFK, the only full blown, expensive film treatment of the assassination. That got funded. It had some if not all the usual cast of villains in the conspiracy theories.
Well Freder, my experience with government workers is that many speak bravely, but they vote to protect their agencies and their paychecks.
The "vast majority" of intelligence, law enforcement, and the civilian workforce of the military (not to mention the uniformed military) are not left of center.
Yeah, only the people at the top--put there when the Democrats are in power. Or stupid Republicans that think that people like Mueller, Comey, and Fitzgerald are Conservative or non-partisan.
William, 3:21:
"Rothstein didn't want the memo released because it would make the FBI look bad. End of story."
That by the way is what I think motivated Comey's most famous actions: not trying to help Trump or help Clinton but to protect the institution. Why not recommend prosecution of Hillary Clinton? Because the FBI as a public institution will not survive having half the country hating it forever for tanking a presidential bid, and convincing themselves the FBI was secretly playing for the Republicans. Why give specifics in the announcement that read like an indictment? Because he didn't want the other half of the country insisting the fix was in [as I believe it was] and that the FBI let her off the hook for political reasons. Why the dramatic announcement and Mrs Litella moment in the last days of the campaign? See above.
I also believe Mueller's investigation at this point is no longer trying to prove actual collusion, but just to make the case that there was enough smoke that the FBI and DOJ acted reasonably with respect to Trump et al., and were motivated by high-minded devotion to protecting the nation, not by partisanship.
Former Los Angeles District Attorney Vincent Bugliosi estimated that a total of 42 groups, 82 assassins, and 214 people had been accused in various Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories.
Tell us again about all of the evidence that Trump colluded with Putin.
Dear Freder, you are lying. Period.
I speak from personal experience working as a contractor for DoD (Air Force and Army including time at the Pentagon) and at the EPA.
On what do you base your bullshit assertion?
And here is an interesting little fact. There has never been a Democratic FBI director. Look it up.
Speaking of conspiracies and/or theories, what the hell is going on in Austin?
“Just years apart in the 1990s, they both gave up their top-tier private law firm jobs to return to the trenches of prosecuting criminals — Mueller as a junior prosecutor in Washington, DC, and Comey in Richmond, Virginia,” Washingtonian reports. “Both men were rising stars mentored and guided by Eric Holder in the 1990s during Holder’s time in the Justice Department under the Clinton administration.” . - Washington Post
Who needs Republicans like these. I blame W for not being ruthlessly partisan enough when he took over. For instance, unlike Clinton, he didn't fire all of the Federal prosecutors, Clinton knew better.
People are arguing about "left of center", but that misses the point. Career federal bureaucrats are in favor of the federal bureaucracy, whatever their politics on every other issue. They are statists, and will fight against anyone who tries to weaken their brand of governing.
There has never been a Democratic FBI director.
Any party registration by inside operators at that level will be strategic.
I speak from personal experience working as a contractor for DoD (Air Force and Army including time at the Pentagon) and at the EPA.
I am sure you rubbed shoulders with the poltiical appointees at the top, and their immediate staff all the time! But if this whole "deep state" thing is not true, then I am sure the facts will come out and it will be 100% clear why Hillary skated while Trump turns on a spit. The evidence will be overwhelming.
"Another term in play there is "conspiracy theorist." If we're going to throw that term around, isn't diGenova's "conspiracy theory" a conspiracy theory about a conspiracy theory (the theory that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians)?"
Is there any logical way to jam in one more conspiracy theory re this chain? How does the conspiracy that included McCabe and Comey such that they both had to be fired (according to the DJT administration) for their participation re conspiring to use the gov against HRC.
American Indians used to tie foes to a stake and torture and burn them. They respected the ones who remained defiant and insulting to the end. It was a test. It's human nature. The more bullshit people throw at Trump, the more respect he gets.
Conspiracy theory. The basic idea is easy. A conspiracy theory that deserves our contempt is one where large numbers of people need to keep a secret. 9/11 Truthers. Think of how many people would have to be in on it, and you'll know it isn't true before you start.
What about here? Do you need a conspiracy? It seems to me it's enough that some top careerists at the FBI and a few other places don't like what Trump is doing and are trying to make problems. Nothing hard to believe about that.
“That by the way is what I think motivated Comey's most famous actions: not trying to help Trump or help Clinton but to protect the institution. Why not recommend prosecution of Hillary Clinton? Because the FBI as a public institution will not survive having half the country hating it forever for tanking a presidential bid, and convincing themselves the FBI was secretly playing for the Republicans.”
The reality was that the DoJ under AG Lynch was not about to let their Presidential candidate be indicted for her crimes. Everything else is merely consequences of that decision, including Comey trying to defend his agency from that.
McCabe lied about leaking stuff to the press, lied to Federal investigators. He doesn't even deny it! He just says that he did the best he could and it's all about protecting Trump. Comey lied to Congress about leaking stuff to the press too. He seems to have the same defense.
I know you Democrats think that the Constitution is nothing but a goddamn piece of paper, but they have a constitutional duty of oversight of the executive, and lying to them is a crime.
Freder Frederson said...
The "vast majority" of intelligence, law enforcement, and the civilian workforce of the military (not to mention the uniformed military) are not left of center.
Link please
Blogger mockturtle said...
Anyone in today's world who's not a conspiracy theorist hasn't been paying attention.
As it happens, I have been listening to Pat Buchanan's book, "Nixon's White House Wars" this week in the car.
Not even Nixon, as paranoid (with good reason) as he was, could imagine that Mark Felt was behind the Washington Post Watergate campaign to take him down. Th FBI was all along part of the Deep State under Hoover and it has continued.
It worked and here is most of the story.
If we are lucky, Trump will take all those people down in the next year.
Probably too much to hope for. But they have gotten awfully arrogant.
“McCabe lied about leaking stuff to the press, lied to Federal investigators. He doesn't even deny it! He just says that he did the best he could and it's all about protecting Trump. Comey lied to Congress about leaking stuff to the press too. He seems to have the same defense.”
Part of his firing was for lack of candor under oath, and the one place we know where he lacked candor under oath was in swearing to the validity of those four FISA warrant applications, knowing that critical information known to him was omitted- such as that they were based on the Steele Dossier bought and paid for by Crooked Hillary and the DNC.
Ever since Dan Rather got caught with a false document by the shared expertise of commenters/bloggers on the new fangled internet thing, the Conspiracy theorists have about a 90% accurate batting average compared to Corporate Media that has batted near ZERO.(The Corporate guys have on a few disasters let some raw video footage out before the best Narrative was re-written.)
The YouTube sites exposing " false flag " operations are still watchable although they are being censored furiously as we speak.
The JFK 7 sniper crosss fire was easy to pin down despite Mis-information produced by the conspiracy cover up experts themselves. The TWA flight 800 is a good expose of a coverup by the same outfit.
And tell me again who shot the Las Vegas crowd and why. The coverup guys have a lot of work left to do on that clean up,so you will find no answers worth a damn.
"They have been around for decades, and are firmly convinced that we live in some sort of military dictatorship, or at least militarist society."
mockturtle,
Can you deny we do live now in a militarist society? What have many (or even most) municipal police departments become but military-styled agencies? They obtain military weapons and vehicles from the feds, they are trained to behave as military troops behave, and even simple search warrants are often handled by SWAT teams who burst into homes unannounced with firearms out and ready to shoot any unfortunate family pet who wanders into view, (this is not to mention they will sometimes throw in flashbang grenades). Suspects are sometimes even shot even when helpless on the ground, because they "make a move" that scares the heavily armed police officers into fearing they're about to be attacked.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/lobbyist-says-he-was-nearly-killed-by-man-he-hired-to-investigate-seth-richs-death/2018/03/19/a4261e48-2baa-11e8-8688-e053ba58f1e4_story.html?utm_term=.732ba4a9b11a
"Lefties are confident that the 'Deep State' is a George Soros/Globalist scheme that serves their interests. That's why they don't mention it. If they thought it was even a tad bit conservative, you'd be hearing about it every ten seconds."
The deep state is neither "liberal" nor "conservative." These concepts are irrelevant. The deep state is concerned purely with power and dominance.
Democrats have been skating under the "Too big to prosecute" doctrine. Obama was involved in the email thing, for example, jsut as he was likely involved in all of those IRS files that were sent to the White House, etc. The "Too Big to Fail" the doctrine creates perverse incentives that lead to catastrophes.
"The reality was that the DoJ under AG Lynch was not about to let their Presidential candidate be indicted for her crimes. Everything else is merely consequences of that decision, including Comey trying to defend his agency from that."
Comey and co. could easily have investigated and referred the case to the DOJ anytime between 2009-2015 also. This was an open secret.
Blogger Robert Cook said... The deep state is neither "liberal" nor "conservative." These concepts are irrelevant. The deep state is concerned purely with power and dominance.
The deep state relies on the peons to be distracted by illusion that "liberal" and "conservative" are the most relevant concepts to focus on.
The deep state is concerned purely with power and dominance.
Yes, and there is a political party that makes a point of getting as many judges appointed as possible who will rule to limit the power of government, and it isn't the Democrats.
Is there any lawyer in the country who doesn’t know in his heart of hearts that Hillary got an illegal free ride from Comey/Lynch? Is there any lawyer in the country who doesn’t know in her heart of hearts that there is no probable cause for the stated purpose of the Mueller witch hunt?
Naturally, I exclude Laurence Tribe and Mueller’s button men from both groups. Their judgement is clouded by partisan irrationality.
s there any lawyer in the country who doesn’t know in his heart of hearts that Hillary got an illegal free ride from Comey/Lynch? Is there any lawyer in the country who doesn’t know in her heart of hearts that there is no probable cause for the stated purpose of the Mueller witch hunt?
Well, the important thing is to not think about the partisan implications of your observation, since they derive from a false consciousness that, for instance, liberalism and its main project of re-engineering the electorate through unfettered immigration, is at all important to the "deep state!"
They don't care about such things! They don't care about tax policy! They would never side with one party or the other on any matters of policy! There is no political party whose interests most closely align with the deep state! It's obvious!
"The deep state is neither "liberal" nor "conservative." These concepts are irrelevant. The deep state is concerned purely with power and dominance."
This is true.
The deep state is neither "liberal" nor "conservative.
Right. And George Soros is just a philanthropist. And Davos is just a bunch of textbook Capitalists. And the UN is really out to do good.
The deep state is concerned purely with power and dominance
And everything they do just happens to serves the Left's agenda, in the current iteration of 'Deep State'. Everytime. Co-incidentally. Open borders. Transferring wealth out of the US by gutting US industry. Global warming. The PC agenda. The Davos One=World Government BS. Guys like Obama being swell. Guys like Trump being Satan. Hillary the chosen one. Yeah, I can't see a pattern.
https://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2018/03/ralph-peters-im-quitting-fox-news-im-ashamed/
Trump is smart.
His new “lawyer’s” job is to go on TV and take apart Murller and Comey and the rest.
I’d start with Mueller’s $5 million fuck up of the anthrax investigation. The guy is arrogant and incompetent.
Then get into Mueller’s private practice. That $10 million “internal investigation” of the NFL he did was a total whitewash of Goddell and his lackeys. Every “internal investigation” this guy did was for tens of millions and was a farce.
Comey was $6 millions year general counsel at the largest defense contractor.
Plenty of crimes he helped cover up.
These guys are swamp rats. Comey has been disgraced and the piling on should continue.
Mueller still pretends to be a man of integrity.
Make them radioactive.
"And everything they do just happens to serves the Left's agenda, in the current iteration of 'Deep State'. Everytime. Co-incidentally. Open borders. Transferring wealth out of the US by gutting US industry. Global warming. The PC agenda. The Davos One=World Government BS. Guys like Obama being swell. Guys like Trump being Satan. Hillary the chosen one. Yeah, I can't see a pattern."
You see what you want to see. Your grab bag of random terms above doesn't constitute an argument.
timinvermont: “There is no political party whose interests most closely align with the deep state! It’s obvious!”
Even it that were correct, and it’s not, what is obvious is that Hillary is from the party of the President who was the greatest “Deep State” enabler ever. Trump, OTOH, promised to drain the swamp where the Deep State feeds.
Why have WaPo and NYT become the Google and FB of news? Probably 90% of the links I encounter are to one or the other.
Last night ex Deputy Assistant Secretary of State to HRC Philippe Reines said on Fox,
"If there was a deep state in favor of Hillary she would be president"
Let that one sink in.
mccullough said...
"These guys are swamp rats. Comey has been disgraced and the piling on should continue.
Mueller still pretends to be a man of integrity.
Make them radioactive."
From behind the plate, Safeco Field: 2 thumbs up. WAY up!
"If there was a deep state in favor of Hillary she would be president"
Let that one sink in.
They thought that they had the odds up to 95%!
"From behind the plate, Safeco Field: 2 thumbs up. WAY up!"
Is this homo code?
Your grab bag of random terms above doesn't constitute an argument.
3/20/18, 4:29 PM
Yes, the old "That's a word salad" argument! Basically you are not even wrong! Of course there is no need to address any of the particular points that you made! Just reject, then ask a rhetorical question.
As an aside, who wants to bet on where Trump and Sessions will find enough occupants for a 18,000 prisoner addition to capacity at Guantanomo Bay Naval Station where prisoners are held for Military Tribunal adjudication under the Always Faithful watch of the USMC. Could there be that many Conspirators about to be arrested? Or maybe it is all a head fake since the MSM has not mentioned anything about it.
Practice Tip: When sudden accusations of ridiculous crimes by Trump and Conspiracy Theories by Trump supporters suddenly come up like spring onions, then you know it is time fora serious cover up of the Dem gang's activities about to be exposed.
"Trump just hired a deep-state conspiracy theorist as his lawyer.
First, Is there a Deep State? Two word answer: Fuck yeah.
Here’s what Joe diGenova has said" (WaPo): "Genova... told Fox News Channel in January that the [Mueller] investigation is 'a brazen plot to illegally exonerate Hillary Clinton and, if she didn’t win the election, to then frame Donald Trump with a falsely created crime.
Second, diGenova is very good on the Russian Collusion Hoax. He was the US Attorney for DC under Reagan, which is highly prestigious, and often a stepping stone to become AG (See Holder, Eric).
The list of lawyerly folks, in order, who are really good on the Russian Collusion Hoax:
1. Andrew McCarthy
2. Alan Dershowitz
3. Jonathan Turley
4. Joe diGenova
The Conservative Treehouse is also outstanding -- hat tip to Michael K.
diGenova's only liability is that he is unrestrained. He doesn't work for a big law firm and isn't bucking for a high-ranking government position. He says whatever he wants, often stridently. In his view, the FBI cabal (Comey, McCabe, Strzok, Page) should not just be fired, but should all go to jail. Ditto for the DOJ cabal (Lynch, Yates, Ohr).
It is kind of strange though, given that the deep state does not align with either political party, how Obama's controversial policies get implemented post haste, and Trump's are resisted at every turn.
It's kind of weird how the IRS was sending tax returns to the Obama White House, but not the Bush White House.
It's kind of weird how the FEC immediately went to court to take down an anti Hillary movie made by Citizens United.
It's kind of weird how Hillary does her interview by the FBI months after the conclusion was decided and then watered down even further, no notes were taken, potential co-conspriators were given immunity for no purpose.
Etc etc etc. The "Deep State" seems kind of partisan. Even simple things. Bush's college grades leak, Obama's college grades locked up tighter than a drum. That's your partisan bureaucracy at work.
Cookie pontificated: "Can you deny we do live now in a militarist society? "
Good Lord man. Go back to your high school history department where they are leftist psuedo-intellectuals like you.
You don't have to make an argument with evidence there. You just virtue signal with accepted tropes.
What absurd bullshit!
Love that DeGenova is in.
https://youtu.be/aa95jLxZfc4
diGenova's only liability is that he is unrestrained. He doesn't work for a big law firm ...
That's where the "white-collar attorney" description comes in?
"Can you deny we do live now in a militarist society? "
So what is your scale exactly, let's put Tibet at the bottom, zero, and North Korea at the top, I mean as far as the military pervading all aspects of society.
Oh wait, Tibet isn't a country anymore because they were overrun by communists who had to destroy their country in order to save it. I guess that "zero" think didn't work out.
I don't like the term "deep state" because it suggests a secret cabal that controls the entire federal government, whereas in fact what we mostly see are bureaucrats imbedded in various parts of the federal government who are pursuing their institutional and ideological interests. These include some career civil service types, but also folks who move into and out of the federal government at pretty high levels. There are different groups in different parts of the government, and each one is focused on its own little ideological garden patch.
Right now we’re focusing our attention on the DOJ/FBI, but there are groups in other agencies involved in other issues. Environmentalism has been a biggee for some time; gay, transgender, etc. rights and grievances; abortion; protection of illegal immigrants; etc., etc. When I was practicing in DC and doing pro bono work for organizations that were trying to help the homeless, the local government often opposed what we were trying to do, but I found we had supporters in the DOJ who were prepared to bring or threaten a civil rights law suit at just the right time. Were these young lawyers a “deep state”?
Right now we find that the various bureaucrats in the various bureaus are mostly “left”. But is the “deep state” always Leftist? Surely people on this thread are old enough to remember J. Edgar Hoover. What we ought to decry is the expansion of the administrative state, whatever the ideology of the particular bureaucrats.
"Trump just hired a deep-state conspiracy theorist as his lawyer. Here’s what Joe diGenova has said" (WaPo): "Genova... told Fox News Channel in January that the [Mueller] investigation is 'a brazen plot to illegally exonerate Hillary Clinton and, if she didn’t win the election, to then frame Donald Trump with a falsely created crime. Make no mistake about it: A group of FBI and DOJ people were trying to frame Donald Trump of a falsely created crime.’”
That’s not a conspiracy theory. That’s what happened.
Freder: "I speak from personal experience working as a contractor for DoD (Air Force and Army including time at the Pentagon) and at the EPA."
That is the funniest thing Ive read all day.
The idea that a couple of stints as a low level contractor in the DoD and EPA gives you any insight at all into the machinations (policy and tactics) of deep state players in the DOJ/FBI/CIA/NSA/anyone and the weaponization of hoax "intel" might just qualify as one the dumbest assertions you've ever made.
A peon who fancies himself "in the know".
Laughable.
Leviathan.
"Can you deny we do live now in a militarist society? "
Define militarist.
@The Godfather,
But is the “deep state” always Leftist?
Honestly, it was not. It was definitely rightwing from the 50's through the 60s, and early 70s. It ebbs and flows on the political scale, depending on the times.
Freder,
I was a DoD contractor for several years and three different projects. What does that mean?
It's a job.
Your reasoning is pitiful. The left lives in a cocoon and has lost the ability to marshal reasonable arguments.
"I speak from personal experience working as a contractor for DoD (Air Force and Army including time at the Pentagon.."
Field Marshall Freder is part of the Deep State!
"The deep state is neither "liberal" nor "conservative." These concepts are irrelevant. The deep state is concerned purely with power and dominance."
Yes and no. Yes, it is concerned with power and dominance. But, no, not purely so.
It is leftist and radically totalitarian in its cast. It is the leftism of the Leninist Red Terror and the Cheka, of the Lefortovo and Lubyanka, of the execution cells in the Katyn Forest.
"Deep State" is more a descriptive term than a noun. It is unorganized but not disorganized. It an opportunistic auto-immune disease of the body politic, a maladaptive socio-political-cultural mutation blindly seeking to transform and finally destroy its host -- like the body snatchers from the pods or the aliens in the "The Astronaut's Wife."
Can you deny we do live now in a militarist society?
Yes. I can, and do.
A group of FBI and DOJ people were trying to frame Donald Trump of a falsely created crime.
Yes, that is what happened.
The effort is continuing, under the leadership of Robert "The FBI Whitewasher" Mueller.
On what do you base your bullshit assertion?
Having lived in the Washington Metropolitan area from 1969 to 2016; having been a federal contractor with several different agencies continuously from 1985 to 2015 (includes the FBI, several contracts of varying sizes with the Defense Department, the NSA, a bunch of regulatory agencies, Social Security, Homeland Security, and the VHA); having a wife who was a federal employee; and personally knowing numerous people who qualify as denizens of the deep state. Is that enough?
I suspect I have a bit more background and a lot more experience than you, Freder.
"They have been around for decades, and are firmly convinced that we live in some sort of military dictatorship, or at least militarist society."
mockturtle,
Can you deny we do live now in a militarist society? What have many (or even most) municipal police departments become but military-styled agencies? They obtain military weapons and vehicles from the feds, they are trained to behave as military troops behave, and even simple search warrants are often handled by SWAT teams who burst into homes unannounced with firearms out and ready to shoot any unfortunate family pet who wanders into view, (this is not to mention they will sometimes throw in flashbang grenades). Suspects are sometimes even shot even when helpless on the ground, because they "make a move" that scares the heavily armed police officers into fearing they're about to be attacked
Cookie, that wasn't my quote you attributed to me. Please delete it.
I never gave much credence to the Deep State concept (the plain old un-deep State has been problematic enough, murdering and plundering down through the centuries); but what made me give it credence was when the coccept was pooh-poohed by the "liberal" Hive, the stupidest people on the face of the earth, or as I sometimes call them, The Gang That's Wrong About Nearly Everything.
...isn't diGenova's "conspiracy theory" a conspiracy theory about a conspiracy theory (the theory that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians)?
"A missing leg that's now missing?"
Now if I were to adopt the Harry Reid standard (Romney didn't pay his taxes---Lie!--Chaser from an unrepentant Reid, well he didn't get elected did he?) I would take a look at John Brennan. Brennan has been particularly vicious and foaming at the mouth at Trump. Brennan, as head of the CIA had no authority to investigate US citizens--but he could and did persuade the FBI to investiate US citizens as part of this cockamamie Russian theory.
Now Brennan has admitted that he voted for the Communist Party candidate for President of the United States in 1980. Using the Harry Reid standard, is it possible that John Brennan is and was in fact a KGB mole within the CIA?
Tim 3:29
You know what else was "redacted for national security reasons"? The name of the person who suggested that Strzok and Page meet the judge at a dinner party to not raise eyebrows. By the way, Fusion GPS met with the famous Russian lawyer before and after the Trump Tower meeting in the exact same way. In his testimony , the Fusion founder downplayed the meetings because he said other people were there and it was just a dinner party, one of two that Fusion gave for "clients" in the space of a week, both attended by the Russian lawyer.
This stuff stinks, and asking for honest explanations is not to be hawking a "conspiracy theory."
worth a repeat
"Conspiracy Theory" has a negative connotation. Ahhh, you're just a conspiracy theorist, buzz off.
And, with language, usage is everything.
So, I use a narrow, legal definition of conspiracy - an agreement by 2 or more people to commit an illegal act.
So under this narrow definition:
1. "Watergate" was a conspiracy - a conspiracy to commit burglary (5 burglars were caught inside the DNC) and a conspiracy to obstruct justice (Nixon and Haldeman urging the CIA to call off the FBI investigation.)
2. The Lincoln Assassination was also a conspiracy - a conspiracy to commit murder (John Wilkes Booth and his confederate hatched a plan to shoot Lincoln, stab Steward and kill VP Johnson, all on one night.)
3. I believe the folks convicted in the Iran-Contra Affair were charged with various conspiracies. Many were pardoned, and Ollie North had his conviction overturned on appeal.
The bottom line is that "conspiracies" -- the narrow definition -- are very common in ordinary crimes (2 guys rob a bank) and the more famous political crimes, we all know about.
So, personally, while I recognize the negative connotation of "conspiracy," I think it is an accurate label in many highly charged circumstances.
Is there a difference between a Deep State and a large, unaccountable bureaucracy that does its own thing regardless of who is in power, but which mostly agrees with the Dems?
Dickin'Bimbos,
One wonders if the name of the party was redacted because they are cooperating.
DOJ could force, and I mean start jailing the recalcitrant, if it wanted. We shall see.
As the Deep State's conspiracy gradually has been revealed, I think back increasingly to Sally Yate's accusation that Michael Flynn was vulnerable to RUSSIAN BLACKMAIL because he had violated THE LOGAN ACT.
The Steele Dossier began with a report that the Russian Intelligence Service was able to BLACKMAIL Donald Trump because he was filmed watching prostitutes urinate on Barack Obama's bed in a hotel room.
The Deep State's conspiracy was focused on a goal of insinuating to the US public that Trump was vulnerable to RUSSIAN BLACKMAIL. That was the theme.
The removal of Flynn was the first step in an intended series of steps, using a combination of wiretapping and leaking.
Sally Yates was showing the way to the other conspirators. Like her, all were supposed to gaslight Trump and the public. They would wiretap and leak and would lie under oath that they did not know who was wiretapping and leaking.
JaimeRoberto:
Based on voting patterns, the bureaucracy votes for Democrats by at least 7-3 and probably as high as 8-2.
Mostly is a VERY wide margin.
That is the funniest thing Ive read all day.
Only because you read my comment out of context. I was responding to the assertion that the vast majority of career government folks are left of center.
"It is kind of strange though, given that the deep state does not align with either political party, how Obama's controversial policies get implemented post haste, and Trump's are resisted at every turn.
It's kind of weird how the IRS was sending tax returns to the Obama White House, but not the Bush White House.
It's kind of weird how the FEC immediately went to court to take down an anti Hillary movie made by Citizens United.
It's kind of weird how Hillary does her interview by the FBI months after the conclusion was decided and then watered down even further, no notes were taken, potential co-conspriators were given immunity for no purpose.
Etc etc etc. The "Deep State" seems kind of partisan. Even simple things. Bush's college grades leak, Obama's college grades locked up tighter than a drum. That's your partisan bureaucracy at work."
@ Tim In Vermont 3/20/18, 4:56 PM
Worth a repeat
Field Marshall Freder: "I was responding to the assertion that the vast majority of career government folks are left of center."
That is demonstrable just by looking at donations as well as voting patterns in large govt enclaves.
https://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/virginia-president-clinton-trump
Not even close.
http://www.govexec.com/management/2016/10/clinton-drastically-grows-lead-over-trump-among-federal-employees-poll-shows/132742/
O’Sullivan’s First Law:
“All organizations that are not actually right-wing will over time become left-wing.”
Take the US federal government as an example.
Going back to my comment #1 on this thread, the shooter at Great Mills H.S. has been identified, alas. The school resource officer fired precisely one round almost simultaneously with the shooter firing one round in his direction. The school resource officer was missed, but his round inflicted a fatal wound on the shooter. The deputies of Coward County in Florida need to take notes.
BM: "The deputies of Coward County in Florida need to take notes."
I should think not.
I don't want those deputies in Coward County to become faint. Plus, it might disturb their sleeping on the job.
Carter Page was only one, relatively insignificant person, but he had lived and worked in Russia and he still was traveling to Russia and interacting with important Russians -- and he was involved with Trump's campaign staff.
Page was a person who had communicated and still was communicating a lot Russians and with Trump associates. That's why the Deep State conspirators concocted a justification to capture and study all of his past and current communications.
Page's communications were raw material that could be used to develop a story that Trump was vulnerable to RUSSIAN BLACKMAIL. The story would be leaked in bits and pieces to Trump-hating journalists, who gradually would insinuate to the public that such blackmail was being proved by wiretaps.
The public never would be able to read the wiretap transcripts, but the Trump-hating journalists eventually would assure the public that all 17 US Intelligence agencies agreed that Trump was being subjected to RUSSIAN BLACKMAIL.
An important part in the plot was to leak transcripts of President Trump's telephone conversations with foreign leaders. These leaks would condition the public to assume that all future reports of leaks were based on actual transcripts.
Since Trump did not deny the transcripts of his telephone conversations with the Presidents of Australia and Mexico, then the public would assume later that wiretap transcripts never were doctored.
Let's assume that Tim in Vermont's remark that the Deep State, assuming it exists, wasn't aligned with the Democrats over the Republicans or vice versa. But then neither was Trump. Or rather Trump was at odds with what both parties stood for on the issues of trade, immigration, and empire (i.e., a forward foreign policy). Mightn't this have been the source of the problem?
An important element of the Deep State's plot was the appointment of a Special Counselor. His never-ending "investigation" would prevent the public or Congress from obtaining any information from the Intelligence Community about what was going on.
Meanwhile, a steady stream of leaks would inform the public that the Intelligence Community was discovering through wiretaps that President Trump was being subjected to RUSSIAN BLACKMAIL -- just like the discovery about Michael Flynn.
The reported wiretaps -- forever mysterious to the public and to Congress -- would insinuate that Trump was being BLACKMAILED BY RUSSIA about:
* the 2016 election
* sex
* business deals
* his taxes
* his family
* the purchases of advertisements on Facebook and Twitter
* and so forth and so on.
Trump wins again over the media. Heh, heh, heh
Mike Sylvester said:
Sally Yates was showing the way to the other conspirators.
Bingo.
Folks harangue about McCabe, but I think in the end we will see that Sally Yates was the ringleader that never needed to say a word. She signed two of those FISA requests (one just a handful of days before the Inauguration?). There were no "secret" meetings with "secret" text messages - everyone understood the role they were playing without anyone needing to say a word.
Too bad Peter and Lisa couldn't keep their mouths (texts) silent.
@Mike Sylvester,
"As the Deep State's conspiracy gradually has been revealed, I think back increasingly to Sally Yate's accusation that Michael Flynn was vulnerable to RUSSIAN BLACKMAIL because he had violated THE LOGAN ACT."
This was a big tell. Only two people have ever been indicted on charges of violating the Act, one in 1802 and the other in 1852. Neither was convicted.
Anybody that raises potential LOGAN ACT violations is a fool, causing mischief. They are trying to SOUND serious, but they aren't. They are using it as a pretext against their political enemies.
Blogger Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...
Tim 3:29
You know what else was "redacted for national security reasons"? The name of the person who suggested that Strzok and Page meet the judge at a dinner party to not raise eyebrows.
OR, perhaps the name was redacted because there is an ongoing criminal investigation involving said redacted name. I'm betting Carlin or Yates.
Perhaps "white-collar attorney" is meant to describe a lawyer who actually works on court cases as opposed to merely making phone calls to other persons of "influence"?
in fact what we mostly see are bureaucrats imbedded in various parts of the federal government who are pursuing their institutional and ideological interests.
The Deep State is a system of government employees who work to enlarge their empire and build an organization that has some similarity to the Mafia. Do you know which political party is devoted to enlarging the government and feeding it resources ?
Both parties are involved but only about 75% of the GOP is part while 99% of the Democrats are.
The Deep State is a parasite on the nation.
"I think in the end we will see that Sally Yates was the ringleader that never needed to say a word."
I agree. I hope Flynn can sue her to make himself whole when all is said and done.
We can all agree it’s not a conspiracy theory that the Obama administration spied on the Trump campaign and transition team.
Keep the name "Lisa Monaco" in mind as we move forward.
Someone had to be the "point person" at the intersection of the DOJ and the White House....
Tom Stier(D) is on the warpath to impeach Trump over.... he won't say. But he's gonna do it!
Cookie sees the obvious.This country started as a offshoot of a Militarist Empire fighting with three other Militarist Empires: France, Holland and Spain. The godsend for this country was George Washington. After Yorktown, he turned down being made King by the Military who had earned it for 8 years. Then the 13 States were stuck on stupid self destructing until Madison got a National convention called to write a new Consitution for the United States. These delagates saw themselves as a continental power. That was what they had fought 8 years for. But a strong executive was still taboo as a King...until George washington came back and supported it and it was known General Washington would be that Presiding Executive power.
They TRUSTED General Washington. That was the God send: a man they trusted. And trusting our Executive has been the key to the country's survival since then. Until Obama and lawless globalist, CIA Deep State corruption came within a heartbeat of killing it off.
Today another God send is well on his way into doing his 8 years of war to repair that damage and make the USA great again.TRUST HIM.
To me a conspiracy theory is an explanation not firmly anchored in well known, verifiable facts. There is a theory that a circle within the US government (especially at the top of intelligence and law enforcement), within the Democratic party and within the media is trying to undo the election. This began as a conspiracy theory. As time has gone on this theory has slowly moved toward being anchored in well-known verifiable facts. But the knowledge is uneven. Many Democrats simply don't possess it. Their ignorance reminds of the video of the unseen gorilla. The Democrats are simply concentrating so hard on counting the "fascist-deplorable-backwards tweets that they miss the gorilla, the attempt to undo a US election.
http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/gorilla_experiment.html
Kathryn51 said...
Too bad Peter and Lisa couldn't keep their mouths (texts) silent.
That seriously needs a sarcasm tag- it almost sounds like you mean it.
"Can you deny we do live now in a militarist society? What have many (or even most) municipal police departments become but military-styled agencies?"
In neither of the two places where I live would this be the case. But then they are not blue and urban, more deep red rural and suburban. The one municipal police department and two county sheriffs offices close to me have not been militarized at all. And I would think that is true of much of the law enforcement in red state America, just from my personal observation. Most of the ones I have had personal contact with are like clones of Andy Taylor.
Carter Page eventually could have been lured into communications or meetings with agents provocateurs who would lead him into discussions indicating that Trump was being blackmailed.
Carter Page eventually could have been recruited or pressured into collaborating in concocted conversations indicating that Trump was being blackmailed.
The wiretaps of Carter Page could have led to other associates who likewise could be wiretapped.
The wiretapping of Carter Page was only a beginning.
Mike Sylwester said...
The wiretaps of Carter Page could have led to other associates who likewise could be wiretapped.
The wiretapping of Carter Page was only a beginning.
Actually when Page went from a level VII surveillance asset to a level I surveillance asset that designated him an active agent of a foreign power. That allowed the FBI to monitor the communications of anyone Page communicated with.
Convenient.
It was also done post hoc. The Obama administration was spying on political opponents during the Iran negotiations and thereafter. The FISA warrant was to gain cover for what they had been doing illegally already.
Freder Frederson said...
That is the funniest thing Ive read all day.
Only because you read my comment out of context. I was responding to the assertion that the vast majority of career government folks are left of center.
Results of election in the District of Columbia:
Clinton 93%
Trump 4%
Totally middle of the road. Absolutely.
You are really dumb and bad at this.
”You are really dumb and bad at this.”
You think this is bad? Ask him to explain how a light bulb works.
"I think in the end we will see that Sally Yates was the ringleader that never needed to say a word."
If she had been just a little bit smarter, and not directly disobeyed Trump and Sessions on immigration , she might have caused a lot more mischief. IG Horowitz is scheduled to dump his conclusions this month, and working backwards, his investigation essentially can be tracked back to her firing, because it was she, and her memo, that was (IMHO illegally) preventing the IG from investigating the National Security Division (NSD) at the DoJ (and presumably the parallel organization at the FBI). And both the Crooked Hillary email whitewash and the Page/Trump wiretapping, etc, investigations were under the FSD, which had been conveniently been cut out of legal oversight by the IG by her. And, of course, it was Yates and McCade who signed (under oath) the first Carter Page FISA Title I surveillance warrant application. That alone should get her law license suspended, if not get her disbarred outright - for intentionally lying by omission to the FISC.
The Special Counsel was created to discredit Trump, not to investigate Russian collusion. If the real object was to investigate Russian collusion then the Democrats and Hillary would be in big trouble because as we are learning now any collusion that occurred was likely to have been on the part of Hillary.
They cannot come up with any Trump/Russian collusion and worse: Facts and events that look very much like it was Hillary and her minions that colluded keep popping up. It’s beginning to be embarrassing. Maybe Mueller can gin up a process crime or a questionable business practice but I doubt that if he does it will have much effect. Any evidence Mueller offers of collusion or crime had better be rock-solid.
So the Special Counsel has tried very hard to discredit Trump and has failed. The Special Counsel, anti-Trumpers, NeverTrumpers and Deep State actors seemed to have not yet comprehended that they no longer control the information flow. They probably believe that Trump is just lucky. The character assassination techniques that used to work so well for them have stopped functioning, especially when it comes to Trump. Thank God for Twitter. With this one social platform Trump has rendered them largely ineffective.
Now Trump is going to discredit the Special Counsel, using Twitter and his new lawyer. Turnabout is fair play - right? They should have left Trump alone because I believe there is a very good chance that some of them will face a jury. Mike Cernovich once claimed that one of Trump’s main traits is that he ALWAYS gets even. I hope it is so. I want to see mug shots, perp walks and courtroom videos of at least some of them getting what they so richly deserve.
I’ve stopped viewing cable news and feel I am better informed for it. I record and fast forward through the panels to see if there’s anyone credible among the panelists; example: Mollie Hemingway. Otherwise I ignore them.
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