"When I turned 25, I looked at every 14-year-old boy I could see, to try to understand what those men had seen, because I still on some level thought I had been a tiny adult. That whole year I was 25, I tried to just see the ones who were like six-foot-two, and 200 pounds — they all looked like children. They all looked like somebody who was 10 years old four years ago. Nobody looks fuckable. Nobody … I couldn’t conjure it up.... I know that pedophilia is a sexuality, like homosexuality. You can’t necessarily — you can’t be cured of it. It is in your brain. That’s one of the tragic things about it for those people. You can become someone who does not act on those impulses, but the understanding in the psychological community is … that’s your sexuality.... They make themselves beloved.... He is a pedophile. When you look at his statement, you realize also he’s profoundly narcissistic. He thinks this is about being caught that he’s gay. And then he is spinning it, right? 'Oh, people like gays now. So I’ll throw them that. I’ll say I’m gay and I will betray my whole community and do something else that conflates pedophilia with male homosexuality.' That’s great. Thank you for that. And that was probably the thing that made me want to talk more than anything else. How repulsive that was."
From "Man Comes Forward to Describe an Alleged Extended Sexual Relationship He Had at Age 14 With Kevin Spacey" (in New York Magazine's Vulture).
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१५८ टिप्पण्या:
Have a seat, Kevin.
Does Kevin Spacey ever say
"First!l?
Age matters. 14 is borderline. But many old gay men like young gay men. Sexually speaking, 14 is young man.
The issue here is not just Spacey using gayness to deflect attention from pedophilia, but also his attackers using pedophilia to deflect attention from actual gay conduct.
I guess way back in the olden times pederasty was commonplace. I sure Kevin Spacey wishes he could live like a some wealthy debauched Roman Senator.
Fourteen years old is a minor -- not borderline.
Spacey is a good actor but it's going to be hard to convince people he was blackout drunk for months during this "relationship".
I'm thinkking at the next DNC convention Meryl Streep can get up and talk to an empty couch.
Liz {Swados] and I got together and she recognized that I was in a lot of psychic distress. She pursued it to the point where I confessed to her.... She helped me get out. She gave me the words and explained to me also that 25-year-olds don’t have sex with 14- and 15-year-olds, that that’s wrong, that I was not the guilty party and I could leave.
God bless this woman. She clearly was the only adult in this poor young man's world who had anything vaguely resembling a moral conscience. The guy's parents! What?! Were they insane? To let a known pedophile anywhere near their child!
Pedophilia is a sexuality? So that's how they're gonna normalize it.
Kate beat me there. This whole thing is going to be turned around as a reason to ACCEPT it as a lifestyle choice. Dear God, what have we become?
Pedophilia is, indeed, a kind of sexuality. But what Kevin Spacey has engaged in is not pedophilia. Pedophilia is a sexual disorder characterized by primary sexual attraction to prepubescent children. Puberty is really the threshold that differentiates childhood from adulthood. A biological child (who are the targets of pedophiles) is not the same thing as a legal child (which is defined by law).
Spacey is certainly someone who appears to be a creep with poor morals and lousy interpersonal boundaries, but I do not think it is fair to label him a pedophile based on the information known thus far.
How common is it for homosexuals to have a history of having been molested as children/adolescents?
@Sydney:
How common is it for homosexuals to have a history of having been molested as children/adolescents?
Survey data has suggested that sexual molestation among gay men and women is significantly higher than for the heterosexual population. It is an uncomfortable topic, in my experience, for the gay activist movement, because they are so wedded to the "born gay" narrative, which I always thought was a fool's errand. What does seem to be true is that sexual orientation, whether a result of genes or early childhood experience or (most probably) some combination of the two, is pretty fixed throughout one's lifetime.
For the sake of accuracy, people should stop saying pedophilia. By definition, that involves prepubescent children. There's another term that is escaping me that applies to adolescents.
Anyway, this guy is hard to read about. He's obviously carried this around for decades as a very real and even compounding trauma. Kevin Spacey, who never gave him another thought likely, taking up all that uncomfortable space in his head. When I first heard about this I thought he should meet up with Spacey and get an apology and break that preoccupying spell of being afraid to see him. However, new allegations make it seem Spacey probably lacks the empathy and self awareness for any of that to be useful. He reminds me of Jian Ghomeshi, who was a CBC guy in Canada. Allowed to run rampant in the workplace like this for so long that the fall, when it comes, is spectacular and unexpected. Not only does that create an unnecessary string of victims over time, it sets up the perpetrators for career ending collapses, which while earned are probably painful and disorienting. Really, the only people that are served by the situation at all are the ones who chose to look away to avoid the discomfort and obligations of meaningfully looking.
6 Now the gates of Jericho were securely barred because of the Israelites. No one went out and no one came in.
2 Then the Lord said to Joshua, “See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men. 3 March around the city once with all the armed men. Do this for six days. 4 Have seven priests carry trumpets of rams’ horns in front of the ark. On the seventh day, march around the city seven times, with the priests blowing the trumpets. 5 When you hear them sound a long blast on the trumpets, have the whole army give a loud shout; then the wall of the city will collapse and the army will go up, everyone straight in.”
Just realizing I incorrectly assumed this was the 14 year old victim we first heard about. Apologies for being confusing - didn't read the article first.
Snark said...
There's another term that is escaping me that applies to adolescents.
There's a bunch of 'em - here's a few (Wikipedia):
++
Pedophilia is used for individuals with a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children aged 13 or younger.
Hebephilia is defined as individuals with a primary or exclusive sexual interest in 11- to 14-year-old pubescents.
Ephebophilia is the primary or exclusive adult sexual interest in mid-to-late adolescents, generally ages 15 to 19.
However, the term pedophilia is commonly used by the general public to refer to any sexual interest in minors below the legal age of consent, regardless of their level of physical or mental development.
++
Where's Dan Savage when you really need him?
However, the term pedophilia is commonly used by the general public to refer to any sexual interest in minors below the legal age of consent, regardless of their level of physical or mental development.
This is certainly true and is an impulse which should be pushed back on. Pedophiles are a much larger threat, and it does not help to cloud the issue by confusing that with consensual sexual behavior between those above and below the legal age of consent.
Shouldn't a distinction be made between those who are sexually attracted to prepubescent v. post-pubescent children? Here is Wikipedia on the subject:
"Hebephilia is the strong, persistent sexual interest by adults in pubescent (early adolescent) children (especially those showing Tanner stages 2-3 of development), which is typically ages 11–14. It differs from pedophilia[1] (which is the strong, persistent sexual interest in prepubescent children[2][3][4]), and from ephebophilia (the strong, persistent sexual interest in later adolescents, typically ages 15–19).[1][5] While individuals with a sexual preference for adults may have some sexual interest in pubescent-aged individuals,[1][6] researchers and clinical diagnoses have proposed that hebephilia is characterized by a sexual preference for pubescent rather than adult partners.[1][7]"
14 years old. I read a while back about a 65 / 60 year husband and wife old fighting off a mountain lion just after their 50th anniversary.
David Bowie and Jimmie Page slept with the same 14 year old (not at same time). Neither was a unique rocker for doing so.
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/music/11-rock-stars-who-allegedly-slept-with-underage-girls-7980930
The most beautiful woman I have ever seen -- who looked like she was 20 - was only 15 and would come to our local pool in a striped bikini. She was not attractive because she was 15; she was attractive because she was the most stunning female in the great State of Nebraska.
I hate to agree with Slate, but I think being attracted to a 14 or 15 year old, while it may be sick in itself if you act on that lust, is not the same thing as pedophilia. Also, I don't think acting on that lust makes you a pedophile; it makes you a sick asshole.
Here is an interesting article on the history of age of consent. It was pretty much 10-12 years old forever, until feminists and moral crusaders got into the game. As women's chastity was formerly a commodity, there was something that was a general concern for the old folks. These days, chastity isn't valued much and there really isn't a compelling societal interest in homosexual chastity, other than disease control, and that topic is pretty much off the table.
http://www.sunypress.edu/pdf/60840.pdf
Moral crusaders are always worried about "the children", and use of the term immediately conjures the picture of a sunny tyke and a super-annuated pervert. As opposed to a practicing 14-year-old homosexual who had already been having sex with his 25-year-old cousin AND fucking 26-year-old Kevin Spacey in the ass, when he objected to being fucked in the ass BY Kevin Spacey. It's complicated. Where's Titus when we need him?
I am dumbstruck at people, including some on this comment thread, defending Spacey because 14 years old is sort of kind of sexually mature, almost.
Hell, if he did this to 14yr old women it would be seen for what it is, worse than just about anything Weinstein has been accused of.
What is with you word-choppers trying to parse what Spacey is accused of doing, into some trivial little thing, unfortunate but understandable and who are we to condemn him? Whatever fine distinctions a clinician might draw with reference to DSM-V have no bearing on how we, the public, should view the actions Spacey is accused of--leave that to his psychologist and if it comes to it a court of law.
Blogger Virgil Hilts said...
I hate to agree with Slate, but I think being attracted to a 14 or 15 year old, while it may be sick in itself if you act on that lust, is not the same thing as pedophilia. Also, I don't think acting on that lust makes you a pedophile; it makes you a sick asshole.
Only if you buy into the notion that feminists and moral crusaders get to determine who you want to fuck. It is a RECENT cultural phenomenon Virgil. 14-year-olds were fair game until the beginning of the 20th century. I don't really look to the 20th century for ANY moral guidance.
Ann,
This post should get your "clear speech" tag. It is rare to hear someone speak on this subject (or any subject, really) with this level of force and clarity. Your editing might have something to do with it, but I say give the man his due with by awarding this richly deserved and widely coveted tag.
I had a psychology prof who argued to the class that in the absence of physical harm the damage of childhood or adolescent sexual abuse/misuse came not from the experience directly but the reaction to it by others, society etc. He argued that they caught the shame and trauma almost like a virus. Those are my words, but that was the gist. He was this super cold, hard science guy and he liked to be shocking and challenging. People in my class were largely repulsed, but I found it interesting. It felt like victim blaming to people -
diminishing, enabling - while I saw it as potentially freeing and healing for victims. It sounded brilliant to me to recast the experiences as unchosen but largely neutral. It's hard to argue it because as mentioned it generally repulses people, but to this day I think it is an interesting idea.
Blogger Martin said...
I am dumbstruck at people, including some on this comment thread, defending Spacey because 14 years old is sort of kind of sexually mature, almost.
Hell, if he did this to 14yr old women it would be seen for what it is, worse than just about anything Weinstein has been accused of.
Martin, not everyone buys into your contemporary definition of decency.
Traci Lords was 15 when she started her "career".
Can you be a retroactive ephebophiliac?
The line between pedophilia and statutory rape is considerable. Both are crimes. But it would not be much of a defense in most people's minds for Kevin Spacey to say, "I'm not a pedophile, I'm just a statutory rapist." But maybe it is in some people's minds, a la Roman Polanski. This substitution does not work:
"I know that statutory rapist is a sexuality, like homosexuality. You can’t necessarily — you can’t be cured of it. It is in your brain. That’s one of the tragic things about it for those people. You can become someone who does not act on those impulses, but the understanding in the psychological community is … that’s your sexuality.... They make themselves beloved.... He is a statutory rapist."
So you could argue that pedophilia gets more sympathy.
The guy's parents! What?! Were they insane? To let a known pedophile anywhere near their child!
"I met [Kevin Spacey] again the summer of 1983, when I was 14, at Shakespeare in the Park. I was waiting on line with my family. I saw him, and he saw me, and while my parents were waiting for tickets, he and I went for a walk.
And that didn’t strike anyone as strange?
No. I had been sexually active for a year then, also with a person ten years my senior — a member of my family, my cousin. Throughout that period, I’m giving off very obvious signals about my relationship with my cousin. I’m wearing his clothes. I’m sleeping over at his house. And my parents are in what seems to me a very profound state of denial about what’s going on. They know I’m gay. I came out to my parents in the eighth grade, when I was 13.
It’s a shameful moment in the history of my family. But my cousin had sexually abused my older brother when my brother was 11 and he was 17 or 18. He was forgiven by my family and kind of invited back into the fold. My mother told him [to stay away from me]: 'If you touch [him], I’ll kill you.' But then I start sleeping over at his house and wearing his clothes, and that goes on really for a year before anybody asks me any questions."
There may be a correlation between pedophilia and transgender orientations. However, we know that pedophilia is trans-social, which is a mental orientation that is inclusive of the gender and transgender spectrum. It is a divergence from standards of normal human behavior (i.e. religious/moral), not Nature's fitness function (i.e. consistent with).
Nambla
@Lydia,
It was the cousin not Spacey I was referring to when I commented on the parents' insanity. The parents knew about the cousin's predilections, yet they turned a blind eye to what was clearly an ongoing sexual relationship between their son & the cousin.
It's better for mob action because it's the children, but the mob may be worn out by now.
In any case it's a crime so you don't need moral posturing.
He's a gay pedophile who skipped the priesthood.
Adolf Guggenbuhl-Craig says borderline pedophiles make good teachers because they can sustain an interest in what the kid is saying where a normal adult tunes out.
So it's not as if they don't have a beneficial effect sometimes.
"Fourteen years old is a minor." Of course. But as other comments have stressed, it is important to distinguish between pedophilia and statutory rape. Attackers throw the pedophilia charge at Spacey to deflect attention from not uncommon targeting of young but pubescent boys by gay men. No one wants to talk about what gay men actually do. Which I am not bringing up to deflect attention from what cisheteros, from Weinstein to Wieseltier, do.
Pedophilia is a sexuality? So that's how they're gonna normalize it.
I think the LGBT community didn't think through their argument very well. Once you've normalized everything "you're born with", how can you ever draw a line?
LGBTQ? P follows from the same argument. The NAMBLA people have been looking for a good spokesperson for years.
I do think they'll have to rebrand it, of course. Like Y, for young love. With a campaign that consent should know no age limit other than the one in the young person's heart.
Actually, he's a gay man for whom boys and men are fair game in the Hollywood sex cult.
Then there's the problem of Socrates, in Phaedrus (?), anywhere somewhere going on about the excellence of young boys.
And who was Sappho's lover. We need ages.
"This post should get your "clear speech" tag. It is rare to hear someone speak on this subject (or any subject, really) with this level of force and clarity. Your editing might have something to do with it, but I say give the man his due with by awarding this richly deserved and widely coveted tag."
He seems like the model of where you'd like every person who was sexually involved too young, regardless of circumstance, to arrive at eventually. You recognize that you shouldn't have been there, that something was lost, that things that were not in your control laid the path, and that in a perfect world you would have had better protection both from within and without. But generally, you're ok, and you've potentiated all the wisdom that was there for the taking.
Guggenbuhl-Craig also says that a lot of the damage from sexual relations with minors comes from the hysteria about damage from sexual relations with minors, not from sexual relations with minors.
The mechanism is that it denies the minor any role in the situation at the time when he ought to be learning to take responsibility for it. If he's even partly responsible for it, he can avoid it; if not, not.
It's a way out that's denied to him by the hysteria.
Actually, he's a gay man for whom boys and men are fair game in the Hollywood sex cult.
Yes, but there is a strong historical lobby to keep pedophiles from being associated with gay people. To wit, there was a meme going around in 2012 that went something like this:
Q: What are gun owners going to do about the Sandy Hook shooting?
A: I don't know. What are gay people going to do about Jerry Sandusky?
This was quickly shouted down by people who argued that man-boy pedophiles were not gay. Which, of course, is like saying that men who sexually abuse underage girls are not straight.
Fourteen years old is a minor -- not borderline.
Legally, no. But it's not pedophilia either. At 14 the victim is sexually mature.
Oh, cabin boy, oh cabin boy,
That spiteful little nipper!
He filled his ass with broken glass
And circumcised the skipper.
Legally, no. But it's not pedophilia either. At 14 the victim is sexually mature.
Maturing, but not mature. A 14 year old, particularly a contemporary American one, is nowhere near ready to safely procreate, which people seem to forget is the literal definition of sexual maturity. Not, for example, owning boobs or attracting the attention of those who want to make him/her a sex plaything.
It's a little disheartening to read this thread and get the impression that several of you think that we need to liberate middle schoolers from those Puritans who think they should be protected from sexual activity which poses physical, emotional, and social risks to them.
A biological child (who are the targets of pedophiles) is not the same thing as a legal child (which is defined by law).
J. Farmer, splitting hairs down the nanoparticle scale once again.
Please rain down some of that comforting equivocation on the thousands of convicted pedophiles doing time for diddling fourteen-year-olds.
It's a little disheartening to read this thread and get the impression that several of you think that we need to liberate middle schoolers from those Puritans who think they should be protected from sexual activity which poses physical, emotional, and social risks to them.
A few pederasts here, perhaps...
Wait. What?
“We also spoke with his current therapist, who confirmed that he began speaking about it in sessions in 2015.”
I'd like to know in what situation anyone who purports to care for/about a 14 year old child thinks that it's in that child's best interest to be in a sexual relationship. A teenager should have a man's penis in his anus? On what fucking planet is that healthy for that teenager?
Spacey is certainly someone who appears to be a creep with poor morals and lousy interpersonal boundaries...
Jesus H. Christ on a stick! Whether Spacey is a creep is unimportant. If what the accuser has alleged is true he's a fucking criminal.
Blogger I Have Misplaced My Pants said...
A 14 year old, particularly a contemporary American one, is nowhere near ready to safely procreate, which people seem to forget is the literal definition of sexual maturity.
11/3/17, 5:02 PM
Can Americans of any age, really, be trusted as ready to procreate? I suggest a government agency, staffed by experts in Gender Studies, be established to approved applications for procreation. Hang a big penalty on those who procreate in an unauthorized fashion and call it a "tax". Charge extra for white people.
Blogger I Have Misplaced My Pants said...
I'd like to know in what situation anyone who purports to care for/about a 14 year old child thinks that it's in that child's best interest to be in a sexual relationship. A teenager should have a man's penis in his anus? On what fucking planet is that healthy for that teenager?
11/3/17, 5:06 PM
On what fucking planet is that healthy for anyone?
Just saying.
Wait. What?
“We also spoke with his current therapist, who confirmed that he began speaking about it in sessions in 2015.”
There would have had to have been consent, of course. Due diligence on confirming the story. Seems right all around.
Blogger I Have Misplaced My Pants said...
I'd like to know in what situation anyone who purports to care for/about a 14 year old child thinks that it's in that child's best interest to be in a sexual relationship.
11/3/17, 5:06 PM
And another thing - as a 14-year-old boy, I was involved in a sexual relationship with a local 16-year-old girl. IT WAS GREAT! Absolutely brilliant! Fabulous(no homo)! First-rate! I made the decision about what was in my best interest. Thank goodness we were able to fly below the radar of the neighborhood scolds. I have lived to the age of 60, and somehow managed to live a full life, contribute productively to society and raise three children who do the same. This will be startling to some.
When I was 15 I had a boyfriend who was 23. It was not the same situation, and if anything, I traumatized him. LOL. The man in this story is right - it's complicated. It's hard to define rules that work all the time. It's kind of one of those 'you know it when you see it' things. This guy was a victim of something, and I was assuredly not.
I doubt there are many naturally attracted to young children. They've done a lot (or seen a lot) of crap before it ends up there. Or you were abused yourself as a child. What the hell is happening to this world!
On what fucking planet is that healthy for anyone?
Just saying.
Don't disagree, but it's especially dangerous for kids. Participating in any sex at all is risky, and those who are not equipped to do it safely--which by definition is all children, nearly all adolescents and most certainly kids who are underparented and are being manipulated and coerced by predatory adults--should be protected from it.
@Quaestor:
J. Farmer, splitting hairs down the nanoparticle scale once again.
Do you believe that the difference between sex with a six-year-old and sex with a sixteen-year-old is mere hairsplitting? Unless you are prepared to say that they are equivalent, then you're agreeing with my point.
In case anybody gives a shit the age of consent in California is 18. There is also an applicable Federal statute.
And another thing - as a 14-year-old boy, I was involved in a sexual relationship with a local 16-year-old girl. IT WAS GREAT! Absolutely brilliant! Fabulous(no homo)! First-rate! I made the decision about what was in my best interest. Thank goodness we were able to fly below the radar of the neighborhood scolds. I have lived to the age of 60, and somehow managed to live a full life, contribute productively to society and raise three children who do the same. This will be startling to some.
Congratulations and we are all impressed by your junior high sexual prowess. I'm glad it all worked out for you and totally agree with your implication that because you didn't wind up suicidal that teenagers should all be screwing like bunnies.
You do realize that you are simply lucky that you did not become a father at 15, or wind up with herpes, or any of the cornucopia of bad outcomes that could have happened? I stand by my assertion that anyone who is not mature enough to realize that having sex at 14 is a really shitty idea is not mature enough to have sex.
Oso Negro reports:
And another thing - as a 14-year-old boy, I was involved in a sexual relationship with a local 16-year-old girl. IT WAS GREAT! Absolutely brilliant! Fabulous(no homo)! First-rate! I made the decision about what was in my best interest. Thank goodness we were able to fly below the radar of the neighborhood scolds. I have lived to the age of 60, and somehow managed to live a full life, contribute productively to society and raise three children who do the same. This will be startling to some.
And had she become pregnant, were you ready, at 14, to take on the responsibilities of fatherhood? Or it that what abortions are for?
Unless you are prepared to say that they are equivalent, then you're agreeing with my point.
You are on a 12-gauge bullshit spree tonight, Farmer. I just hope you are not as morally purblind in real life.
"Fabulous(no homo)!" You have no shame to type such an offensive comment at 60 years of age no less. Pity that wisdom escaped you all these years. Who else do you denigrate on a regular basis? If it were legal, I'd punch you in the nose.
@I Have Misplaced My Pants:
Participating in any sex at all is risky, and those who are not equipped to do it safely--which by definition is...
You could add most 18-25 year olds to that list. Even trying to define an "adolescent" merely by calendar age is problematic given the variance in physical development among people. Even age of consent varies widely by jurisdiction. The entire concept has to do with one's intellectual and emotional capacity to render consent. Yes, generally people in their early 20s are more mature than people in their mid-teens, but given the bell curve, there is still significant overlap.
Blogger I Have Misplaced My Pants said...
Congratulations and we are all impressed by your junior high sexual prowess. I'm glad it all worked out for you and totally agree with your implication that because you didn't wind up suicidal that teenagers should all be screwing like bunnies.
You do realize that you are simply lucky that you did not become a father at 15, or wind up with herpes, or any of the cornucopia of bad outcomes that could have happened? I stand by my assertion that anyone who is not mature enough to realize that having sex at 14 is a really shitty idea is not mature enough to have sex.
No one said anything about "prowess" Goody Misplaced My Pants. Prowess takes practice. You will be shocked to know that we had access to condoms back then, even though electricity and flush toilets wouldn't be available to Missouri until 1975. Here is the fact of the matter - young people decide for THEMSELVES what to do. "Just Say No" didn't work for drugs and all of your righteous moralizing won't work for sex either. But go ahead, keep terrorizing young people that all sexual contact results in venereal disease and unwanted pregnancy. I am betting on human nature, and that means fucking.
@Quaestor:
You are on a 12-gauge bullshit spree tonight, Farmer. I just hope you are not as morally purblind in real life.
Can always depend on you for a cheap insult in place of any actual discussion of the issue. Thanks for not disappointing.
I will agree that there is a difference between pedophilia and what I consider pederasty. Both, however, are not only sins against God but are crimes against the minor involved. A true pedophile who rapes a little child should be put to death. A pederast should go to prison for a few years. Two young teens having sex, while unwise, is often the result of poor judgment, as both lack maturity. Quite a different situation with an adult and a pubescent boy or girl, which is why we have the laws we do.
Blogger Trumpit said...
"Fabulous(no homo)!" You have no shame to type such an offensive comment at 60 years of age no less. Pity that wisdom escaped you all these years. Who else do you denigrate on a regular basis? If it were legal, I'd punch you in the nose.
Nope, no shame. None whatsoever. I use the word "negro" also. How do you like that? I think it is a fine word. On a blog that routinely features the exploits of Titus, I don't think that it is necessary to worshipful about contemporary sensibilities.
Don't disagree, but it's especially dangerous for kids. Participating in any sex at all is risky, and those who are not equipped to do it safely--which by definition is all children, nearly all adolescents and most certainly kids who are underparented and are being manipulated and coerced by predatory adults--should be protected from it.
Anxiety and depression keeps rising among adolescents. I would think this is a data point to support your argument. And to disprove the argument that society's reaction is what causes shame. Everyone expects teenagers to have sex. But the kids aren't alright.
Do you believe that the difference between sex with a six-year-old and sex with a sixteen-year-old is mere hairsplitting? Unless you are prepared to say that they are equivalent, then you're agreeing with my point.
That was my point. You can believe sex with a minor is wrong and illegal and still realize it's not pedophilia.
That's not splitting hairs, either. Actual pedophiles are a whole different level of wrong.
You could add most 18-25 year olds to that list. Even trying to define an "adolescent" merely by calendar age is problematic given the variance in physical development among people. Even age of consent varies widely by jurisdiction. The entire concept has to do with one's intellectual and emotional capacity to render consent. Yes, generally people in their early 20s are more mature than people in their mid-teens, but given the bell curve, there is still significant overlap.
All those things are true, but you know as well as I do that A. you have to have lines somewhere, even when they are imperfect, B. that those lines of argument are commonly used to push for a permissive atmosphere which enables predatory behavior toward vulnerables and C. adolescents who are sexually active are wildly more at risk for more or less every bad outcome we could name.
If I have sex with a fourteen year old girl then the left will defend me? No big deal. Good to know.
Blogger mockturtle said...
And had she become pregnant, were you ready, at 14, to take on the responsibilities of fatherhood? Or it that what abortions are for?
It was 1971. The Supremes wouldn't discover the right to abortion for a couple more years. But a good number of teenagers were married in 1970 according to the census. Girls had been getting pregnant pretty much forever. It hasn't been until the last few years that men and women refrain from sex until they are ready to be responsible parents. :)
But go ahead, keep terrorizing young people that all sexual contact results in venereal disease and unwanted pregnancy. I am betting on human nature, and that means fucking.
all sexual contact risks venereal disease and unwanted pregnancy
FTFY
I counsel my teens to take biology seriously and plan their social lives accordingly.
I don't give a goddamn what risks consenting adults take, so spare me the slurs about moralizing. You're full of shit if you continue to argue that children and teenagers are capable of effective risk assessment. But people who think that, can peacefully coexist with people who think that it's a shitty idea to act like it's safe for kids to make sexual decisions other than to wait until their brains are fully developed. So go with God and I hope you're not a grandpa before you want to be.
I think Misplaced My Pants et al are generally right, but for the wrong reasons. I started at 13 - which now sounds absolutely, utterly, insanely young. And I did that from a broken place - fatherless home, mother who loved me but was insanely critical and poorly attuned. There were sexual relationships in my adolescence that were unquestionably bad for me - harmful in lingering ways. I wasn't in a place to judge or understand that at the time. But, with not a little irony, the relationship I had at 15 with the man 8 years my senior was probably the most healthy and balanced of my teen years. So it's situational. But given the fact that the odds of a poor outcome are not insignificant the most reasonable approach is to draw a line somewhere and apply a rule generally. But that doesn't negate the truth that some 14 year olds are just fine, sometimes.
@I Have Misplaced My Pants:
All those things are true, but you know as well as I do that A. you have to have lines somewhere, even when they are imperfect,
I completely concede that point. And I have said before that I am pretty much fine with them where they are. I think the 15/16 range is about the right point. My point is that this phenomenon is distinct from pedophilia, should not be conflated with it, and operates on a much more complex social level. Pedophilic sex is purely predatory. Sex with post-pubescents involves a much different level of emotional and social coercion. And this coercion occurs in bars in this country every single night, as men frequent bars with the intent of meeting women and saying what they need to say to them in order to get sex out of them. I do not think this is the healthiest of human relationships, but to merely say that it is "predatory" somehow seems to say too little and too much.
Yes, Oso, I got pregnant-and married--in my senior year of high school. Most unwise of us, much too young. I have a wonderful daughter as a result, having resisted my mother's pressure to fly to Japan for an abortion [it was illegal here in the mid- 60's]. Prevalence doesn't make it either right or wise.
I could easily be attracted to a fifteen year old girl, but that's not the same as actually acting on that attraction. That's a huge quantum jump. Teenagers have truly annoying personalities and are not much fun to be around. If I were rich and famous and handsome, I'd get a twenty something to wear pig tails. Women at that age know what's sexy about being a teenager.
Or it that what abortions are for?
Abortion is a legal means intended to make a defenseless person foot the bill.
Blogger I Have Misplaced My Pants said...
I don't give a goddamn what risks consenting adults take, so spare me the slurs about moralizing. You're full of shit if you continue to argue that children and teenagers are capable of effective risk assessment. But people who think that, can peacefully coexist with people who think that it's a shitty idea to act like it's safe for kids to make sexual decisions other than to wait until their brains are fully developed. So go with God and I hope you're not a grandpa before you want to be.
I do not see that horny adults are capable of effective risk assessment. And yes, you are moralizing and you over-rate "brain development" when it comes to making sexual judgments. Own it. Be proud of it. I am betting on hormones and human nature. My married youngest daughter is about to have her first child. I think it is great!
I counsel my teens to take biology seriously and plan their social lives accordingly.
Which biology is that? The biology below the waist is tinker toys compared to the biology between the ears.
It will be interesting to see if Spacey gets punished more or less than Roman Polanski. Polanski won an Oscar after conviction. I don't see Spacey winning any honors any time soon. Is this an example of homophobia?........Who's the best bet to end up in the slammer? My guess is Harvey. Cosby looks like he can draw things out in the legal system until such time as the Grim Reaper arbitrates his case. Spacey looks like he'll skate, but his career is over. Toback is the dark horse.
I completely concede that point. And I have said before that I am pretty much fine with them where they are. I think the 15/16 range is about the right point. My point is that this phenomenon is distinct from pedophilia, should not be conflated with it, and operates on a much more complex social level. Pedophilic sex is purely predatory. Sex with post-pubescents involves a much different level of emotional and social coercion. And this coercion occurs in bars in this country every single night, as men frequent bars with the intent of meeting women and saying what they need to say to them in order to get sex out of them. I do not think this is the healthiest of human relationships, but to merely say that it is "predatory" somehow seems to say too little and too much.
Well put, as your comments so often are, and I agree with all of this. The 'hey sex is natural and teens should just go have fun!' folks got my Irish up tonight, but usually I'm the one arguing points more like yours. Teen sexuality in the modern age is so complicated. Sometimes, like for our friend Black Bear above, it's relatively harmless and non-coercive, but so often it's related to brokenness of some kind (see Snark's comment) that that seems to me reason enough to look askance at it. It's a bit chicken and egg, but kids who come from brokenness are ripe for exploitation, and that very exploitation usually makes them even more broken and and at higher risk for other harmful behavior and experiences. That's aside from the physical risks that sex poses to everyone.
When I think of Spacey getting punished I don't think of Polanski, I think of Milo Yianoppoulos. It's much more recent template, and I think the better fit.
When I was in junior high, for some reason, I was quite rigid about only "going" with girls (the terminology of the day) in my grade. If I was in, say, 6th Grade, I would refuse to "go" with any 5th grade girl. And, since no older girls ever wanted a thing to do with me, I always stayed in my grade.
This was true all the way thru high school.
In College, as a sophomore, I had a couple Freshman girlfriends. But basically I always stayed in my grade.
My wife, incidentally, is exactly 4 days younger than me.
Who knew that such rigidity avoided so many problems that apparently befall
many Hollywood stars. Stay in your grade!
What I want to know is how is all this sex in the news helpful or hurtful to Trump?
It’s probably a subject best left for another post.
Why are these men taking up with a much younger person? Is it because the younger person is an "equal?" Older men tell young boys that they are equals but really it is the inequality that attracts. It is the ability to manipulate and exploit due to the age disparity. And that is predatory. The laws are trying to protect these young people until they can protect themselves. Two people close in age - one 14 years and 9 months, the other 16 years and one month - aren't likely to be prey and predator. Other issues there.
Which biology is that? The biology below the waist is tinker toys compared to the biology between the ears.
That they can try to outsmart pregnancy and germs, but that pregnancy and germs are pretty good at their own game.
"It's a bit chicken and egg, but kids who come from brokenness are ripe for exploitation, and that very exploitation usually makes them even more broken and and at higher risk for other harmful behavior and experiences."
Look what happened to me. I turned out liberal! :)
I haven't read the article, but is there any supporting context? Not proof. That's probably impossible. But context -- does this fellow and Kevin Spacey overlap in space and time to support the allegation? Has Spacey made a statement?
Psychologically the difference between attraction to a minor who hasn't reached puberty and one who has is huge. It's the difference between normalcy and degeneracy.
But acting on it in either case is morally wrong. It undoubtedly causes different psychological problems for a 13 or 14 year old than it does for a 4 year old, but it isn't healthy for either group.
The discomfort with the "hair splitting" isn't because people think the attractions are the same, it's because all of the people who act on these attractions are morally deficient (putting their own gratification above the mental and physical well being of others) and it's important that we not allow anyone to carve out a gray area by saying one is less bad than the other.
I've finished spray painting "Free Candy" on the side of my van and am headed to the nearest middle school to find a date for tonight. All good, according to the left. Hope she's not a virgin -- I don't want her to get clingy.
"I haven't read the article, but is there any supporting context? Not proof. That's probably impossible. But context -- does this fellow and Kevin Spacey overlap in space and time to support the allegation? Has Spacey made a statement?"
Yes. You should read it - it really is a good article. Q & A format. The man is clearly smart, and insightful and resiliant. And telling the truth.
This was a very powerful statement. I'm so glad he spoke out.
Thanks, Snark. No matter what, it's saddening.
CStanley writes: The discomfort with the "hair splitting" isn't because people think the attractions are the same, it's because all of the people who act on these attractions are morally deficient (putting their own gratification above the mental and physical well being of others) and it's important that we not allow anyone to carve out a gray area by saying one is less bad than the other.
Well said.
Does anyone remember the movie Magnolia? It might be worth a rewatch. Maybe Paul Thomas Anderson was sending up a flare.
I see a bit of hysterical overreaction above. Just saying. No one here has an agenda, okay?
It's just that 14 year olds do have some agency. Therein lies the problem. As the victim here more or less admits. That's what makes them crazy later on, imo.
The discomfort with the "hair splitting" isn't because people think the attractions are the same, it's because all of the people who act on these attractions are morally deficient (putting their own gratification above the mental and physical well being of others) and it's important that we not allow anyone to carve out a gray area by saying one is less bad than the other.
I also believe that usage overrides the dictates of the dictionary. "Pedophile" has been commonly used to describe someone who sexes up a legally underage partner. Nobody wants to say "statutory rapist" every time.
And the effect is the same-- you're a pedophile if you break that societal taboo.
CStanley, his narrative was one of the most compelling things I've ever read, full of supporting context. Read the article.
Lem said...What I want to know is how is all this sex in the news helpful or hurtful to Trump?
It's all good, Lem. Spacey makes Trump look downright puritanical. To think that Libs think they both are play acting POTUS.
Was Kevin ever really "in the closet"?
I thought he was outed 20 years ago.
So, lets not talk about Kevin Spacey having sex with a 15 y/o.
No, lets talk about how this makes Gays look bad.
Pedophilia is a sexuality? So that's how they're gonna normalize it.
Let's hear it for Kate, everybody. Proving once again that conservatives don't understand how consent works.
Not all Muslims are terrorists
Not all Gays are pedophiles
Not all Illegals commit crimes
Not all Jews are like Weinstein
Did I miss anyone?
I counsel my teens to take biology seriously and plan their social lives accordingly.
I find it interesting that we let 16-year-olds drive a car, and statistically that's much more likely to result in their death than having sex or making babies.
This article introduces, but does not explore, a greater family tragedy. These are two sons turned to inutility, infertility, by a sexual predator, apparently not Spacey, as the damage was done when he appeared in the scene. On the whole Spacey seems incidental to all this.
The family, the clan, no longer can expect a next generation, they are rubbed out of the future just as effectively as if some murderer had shot their children.
Homosexuality is a terrible curse.
"I find it interesting that we let 16-year-olds drive a car, and statistically that's much more likely to result in their death than having sex or making babies."
Using that logic, we shouldn't let anyone drive -especially old people. After all, they don't have to worry about "babies" yet we still let them drive.
@Buwaya - Homosexuality may or may not be a terrible curse, but I didn’t notice anyone stepping up to claim that having a grown man’s penis up your butt is healthy for anyone. Not only are we missing Titus in this thread, we haven’t even had a Laslo sighting. Just good old timely moralist vs libertine action.
At least Spacey's dreadful TV was cancelled. And his fellow actors know exactly who to blame.
"Homosexuality may or may not be a terrible curse..."
Your backward, bigoted and closed mind is cursed. Unfortunately, your foul mouth won't stop jabbering.
So...at 14 boys can make pretty competent decisions about sex BUT they can't be responsible enough to provide themselves their own insurance because they are considered a child under the terms of Obamacare. What an effed up world we live in.
Maybe part of this is that parents are ultimately responsible for their kids behavior and that includes regulating friendships and intruding dicks.
The left have butt sex and calling you a racist. That's it.
Teen Vogue going under.
@Trumpit. I don’t give a fuck what you do, just don’t require me to celebrate it. Do you want to step up and extol the health benefits of anal sex? Still waiting for a hero.
And..a parent of a presumed gay child would want to be extra vigilant since likelihood of condom use is reduced. There are other potential physical possible complications from anal..butt we are told they are rare.
Does anyone else remember the good old sayings from late High School? Old enough to bleed, old enough to seed. Fourteen will get you twenty.
Should the age of consent be pro-rated to the commonly accepted age which a kid may be tried as an adult?
Wiki:Twenty-three states have no minimum age in at least one judicial waiver or statutory exclusion provision allowing for the transfer of juveniles to adult court. In states where a minimum age is specified for all transfer provisions, age 14 is the most common minimum age.
Oso Negro harkens back to the pre-20th century good old days. I wonder if he thinks 7 is too young?
The first juvenile court in the United States was established in 1899 in Cook County, Illinois.[1] Before this time, it was widely held that children 7 years old and older were capable of criminal intent and were therefore punished as adults.
Butt let's imagine a scenario where anal prolapse etc was more common. The parent(s) accompany the child to the doc........
@Howard, honestly I thought 10 was pushing it, but that was the standard in the Western world for a solid 1,000 years and before that we had no standards at all. I mock people who feel certain that there is something other than hysteria and moral posturing behind the entire notion of age of consent. I further mock a culture that in scarcely 40 years time managed to mainstream and require obeisance to what was formerly thought a mental disorder. And I triply mock the Trumpits, who stamp their feet and gnash their teeth in rage that another free man might refuse to speak their code language and worship their new gods.
Then there's the friction between lowering age of consent vs 26 as Zero-Care cutoff....
Old enough to bleed, old enough to seed.
What I remember hearing was Old enough to bleed, old enough to butcher.
Trumpit: "Your backward, bigoted and closed mind is cursed. Unfortunately, your foul mouth won't stop jabbering."
Note: this is something Trumpit would never say, or dare even to whisper, to any Islamist at any time or any where.
#Lefty"Courage"
"Do you want to step up and extol the health benefits of anal sex?"
Next thing you're going to say is that smoking doesn't have any health benefits, either.
I am Laslo.
What about the endorphin highs thatvSpacey must have experienced? Don't they count for something?
Laslo! The Great One takes the field at last.
From a personal parental perspective, any thoughts Ann?
Titus commented one time that he and his husband actually never engage in “penis up your butt” (as O.N. put it up-thread) intercourse — but only satisfy each other orally — ‘cause, as Titus stated, otherwise they would always be fighting over top (active penis vs. inactive receiver) position. I thought that was insightful in illustrating how some gay couples approach solving their relationship sexual equity issues.
Laslo once posted a little fictional vignette on this blog - long ago - that dealt with this very topic. It involved a teenage boy who was in conflict with his father. He found companionship with a gay neighbor who ended up seducing him and confusing his sexuality. It was very insightful and well written.
My wife, incidentally, is exactly 4 days younger than me.
You were born at the same time of day?
I was born at 11:55 PM...almost made it 'til tomorrow.
Blogger Oso Negro said...
Blogger Martin said...
"I am dumbstruck at people, including some on this comment thread, defending Spacey because 14 years old is sort of kind of sexually mature, almost.
Hell, if he did this to 14yr old women it would be seen for what it is, worse than just about anything Weinstein has been accused of.
Martin, not everyone buys into your contemporary definition of decency."
Our character is not so much defined by what we do, but by what we choose not to do.
Juging by current headlines perhaps Oso has a point.
J. Farmer: "Pedophiles are a much larger threat, and it does not help to cloud the issue by confusing that with consensual sexual behavior between those above and below the legal age of consent."
I am not concerned with labels that are based on very rough hairsplitting. Not all 13, 14, and 15 year olds have the same degree of maturity. However, none have the ability to perform adult actions, such as enter into a contract or engage in sexual behavior with a legal adult. (Except maybe in Kentucky).
Adults who take advantage of these CHILDREN are far worse than the college boys and girls who we advise are guilty of rape if one or more is intoxicated and thus, cannot give consent.
Let's not cloud the issue with false age distinctions. A hetero 24 year old man attracted to a physically mature 14 years old girl is normal, just as a homosexual man in the same situation. However, when either take action to have a sexual relationship with that child, they are perverts and should be sent to jail.
Is there any data about how many gay male couples adopt male children vs. female children?
This guy is awesome. I send him love.
Oso Negro: Only if you buy into the notion that feminists and moral crusaders get to determine who you want to fuck. It is a RECENT cultural phenomenon Virgil. 14-year-olds were fair game until the beginning of the 20th century. I don't really look to the 20th century for ANY moral guidance.
There is so much stupid, conflation of issues, and sweeping reality under the rug here I wouldn't know where to start. (Hey, my mother was 15 and my father 23 when they first met. The circumstances under which they met, courted, and married have diddly to do with the behavior we're talking about it here.)
Hate to break this to you, Oso, but other centuries besides the 20th, and lots of other perfectly sane, wise people who weren't feminists and "moral crusaders", were thoroughly OK with telling you whom you could and could not fuck. And you have to be blind as a fucking bat (or a complete libertarian sperg-retard, but I repeat myself) to believe that any rules (legal or cultural) regulating sexual behavior between consenting, er, people past (or going through) puberty are nonsensical because chastity isn't a thing anymore.
I don't really look to the 20th century for ANY moral guidance.
No? You're dishing out quite a bit of 20th-century moral reasoning here yourself, toots. As in "I want what I waaaaaaaant" and "I'm 25 or 35 or 45 but I can't be expected to have self-control, or any sense of duty or responsibility regarding youthful lack of judgment and inexperience - 14 year olds are physically sexually mature and horny and will consent to sex so how dare you suggest I have the moral obligation to be the adult in the room and not fuck what I want to fuck whenever I want to fuck it!"
...feminists and moral crusaders...
Yeah, if it weren't for parents being brainless paranoid dupes of prudey-prudey McPrude pleasure hating puritanical "feminists" and "moral crusaders", no mothers or fathers would be bothered by 25+ year-olds sniffing around their hormonally-surging, judgment-deficient 14-year-olds. What kind of fucked-up parents think sex is powerful and important and potentially dangerous and that the inexperienced young need guidance and protection?
As opposed to a practicing 14-year-old homosexual who had already been having sex with his 25-year-old cousin AND fucking 26-year-old Kevin Spacey in the ass...
Oh yeah, no social and personal pathologies going on with a "practicing 14-year-old homosexual" fucking 25 and 26 year olds, no sirree bob. Just like one rarely finds any social or personal pathologies among 14-year old girls sleeping around with older men. So the 14 year old boy gets AIDs (know a case of this personally), or the 14 year old girl gets diseases, knocked up, or just emotionally screwed up.
But hey, fuck those 14 year olds (in every possible way). They know the score! Right? Or they sure as hell should, at that advanced age. We certainly don't want them all turned into snowflakes by fucked-up prude parents, who surely lack my sophisticated (if entirely non-contextual) knowledge of age of consent laws, now, do we?
But I agree that "feminists and moral crusaders" aren't up to the job. They're never after what they claim to be after, anyway. Fathers with baseball bats and tire irons make the point better.
Where's Titus when we need him?
Yeah, that's just who we need.
Angel dyne FTW.
How common is it for homosexuals to have a history of having been molested as children/adolescents?
In my case, zero. I wouldn't call it a cause.
There are many stories of boys molested who did not turn out gay at all.
In some cases, it's true, the molestation may awaken sexual inclinations that should have had more time to form -- but it still isn't the cause of homosexuality.
In my opinion.
Snark: I think of Milo Yiannopolous. It’s the better fit.
Whom did Milo victimize, specifically, you slandering, victim-blaming, shitbird?
Show your work.
The age of consent remains 14 in several European countries, including Germany and Italy. It was still 14 in Canada less than 10 years ago. I argued upthread that a line drawn and enforced somewhere is erring on the right side of caution and the right side of a teenager’s best interests in the general case. But this extreme moral outrage is a bit off. For various reasons some adolescents have an inner life and experience set that is not as anchored in childhood as some of you would like to allow. The fact is that some young adolescents neither want or need your protection, or will make their way in life just fine, with or without some regrets. Some would be worse off for being saddled with the weight of these hard line judgements, and the casting of them as victims and their sexual partners as monsters. That’s a little self indulgent, too.
@Angel-Dyne - Jimmies rustled? On a personal level, I had no interest in being told what to do or think when I was 14, NOR telling another person what to do or think, and 46 years later I feel the same. On a cultural level, I am an interested observer. I do not require anyone to celebrate my sexual deviancy (which doesn't include 14-year-olds, by the way). As a culture, we have expended a great deal of energy mainstreaming homosexuality the last 40 years and now we are startled when homosexuals behave according to a classic homosexual pattern. It is a cultural oddity. And yes, I thought it funny that the second complainant didn't mind being fucked by his cousin, or fucking Spacey, but drew the line at Spacey fucking him. This outbreak of hysterical neo-Puritanism isn't going to end well, mark it down.
“Whom did Milo victimize, specifically, you slandering, victim-blaming, shitbird?”
Milo fell off his perch like a dead parrot because he said that relationships between young adolescents and older men could be a positive force in a gay boy’s life. He legitimized the experience with words and Spacey effectively legitimized it with his actions. People reject that legitimization in both cases. It’s a better comparison than Roman Polanski, who drugged a child and forced her into anal sex against her will.
So, in other words, dumbass, Milo victimized nobody?
Then in what twisted stupid universe of yours is it “a better fit?”
Lol Milo just had the #5 bestseller on the NYTimes, since then, idiot. YOU should be such a dead parrot.
This outbreak of hysterical neo-Puritanism isn't going to end well, mark it down.
This level of amoral decadence will not end well, mark it down. FIFY.
sperg retard
I just noticed that AngelDyne had you pegged.
No pun intended.
@ Mockturtle - have you looked at the information Snark refers to concerning global ages of consent? It is readily available on line. Do you believe that countries with standards that are less strict than you prefer are all amoral and decadent?
I wouldn't have sex with a girl who isn't old enough to buy cigarettes.
I am Laslo.
Oso Negro:
On a personal level, I had no interest in being told what to do or think when I was 14...
You, me, and every other 14 year old who ever lived. So what?
NOR telling another person what to do or think, and 46 years later I feel the same.
I'm not 14 anymore (in fact, we're of an age), so I don't make petulant, non-substantive responses to complex issues like this anymore, either.
On a cultural level, I am an interested observer. I do not require anyone to celebrate my sexual deviancy (which doesn't include 14-year-olds, by the way).
Nobody has expressed any interest in either of these things. You're just spouting dumb glibertarian bromides.
As a culture, we have expended a great deal of energy mainstreaming homosexuality the last 40 years and now we are startled when homosexuals behave according to a classic homosexual pattern. It is a cultural oddity.
You're very confused about who "we" is here. There is no American "we" that enthusiastically mainstreamed homosexuality and then all of a sudden went into an irrational moral panic about "the children". There were the "enthusiastic mainstreamers", and then there were the "prudes" who warned about the "classic patterns" of dysfunction in sexual culture (homosexual or otherwise) all along. Now you stupidly lump all the sides and issues in a half-century long "culture war" together for the purpose of making some puerile point about how nobody is gonna tell you what to do, maaaaan. (Which, btw, is fucking pathetic in a man of 60.)
The best one can say is that you're an astonishingly sloppy "interested observer" of culture.
And yes, I thought it funny that the second complainant didn't mind being fucked by his cousin, or fucking Spacey, but drew the line at Spacey fucking him.
Oh, hilarious. "I laughed, therefore any parent who doesn't think it's a good idea for their 14 year old to be out and about buggering or being buggered, or who consider the older men who are buggering or being buggered by them to be predatory slimeballs, is a hysterical neo-Puritan."
This outbreak of hysterical neo-Puritanism isn't going to end well, mark it down.
I'd suggest that you stop conflating outbreaks of media click-bait hysteria with the legitimate concerns of normal parents, but I can see that making careful distinctions and thinking seriously about society and culture isn't your thing. And anyway, we all know nobody is gonna tell you what to think or do, maaaaaan.
@Angel-Dyne - Valium. It may help.
A lot of teenagers abuse alcohol, often bought for them by adults. This is a crime for the same reason that sex with a minor is a crime. Teenagers are notorious for their poor judgment. Consent does not imply sound judgment.
Once a child reaches puberty, it's not pedophilia. It's just plain same-sex or opposite-sex attraction. Girls used to get married regularly at age 14, because the arrival of puberty meant they were old enough to have children (one of my maternal great-grandmothers got married at age 15, and that wasn't considered unusual). There's a reason why attractive teen-age girls are called "jailbait." They're very attractive to men of all ages. And the same seems to go for attractive teen-age boys to those of same-sex desires.
That doesn't make it right for grown men to prey upon young teen-agers. That's why there's such a concept as the "age of consent"--and rightly so.
But the crime (or sexual inclination) isn't pedophilia. It's just plain sexual activity or attraction.
WALTER BREEN YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD!
Blogger Laslo Spatula said...
I wouldn't have sex with a girl who isn't old enough to buy cigarettes.
I am Laslo.
" You have to be This Tall(cut out of Mylie Cyrus with her hand 5 and a half feet off the ground) to ride the stripper pole."
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