I was going to say, that headline, if it wants to meet its own high standards, seems wrong because it assumes the reader is a man (and a heterosexual man at that), and I was going to say that's all right because it's in Esquire.
But now, I'm thinking the "you" works on women and nonheterosexual men. You shouldn't do these things to women in the workplace.
And you shouldn't do equivalent things to men in the workplace.
So I'm just going to take issue with the last sentence: "And if she wants to fuck you, she will tell you."
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९० टिप्पण्या:
I take issue with one of the first paragraphs in the article:
"But the fact is, it’s you. It’s men. The social ill that we can’t quite put our finger on is men."
Ann, why on Earth would you say that the article is talking both to men and to women? It clearly states that the problem is the existence of men.
"Ann, why on Earth would you say that the article is talking both to men and to women? It clearly states that the problem is the existence of men."
I — as opposed to the author of the article — am making a point: That the problem behavior the article assumes is done only by men can also be done by women to women and (mutatis mutandis) to men.
I didn't say the article was "talking to" women. I said the advice given to men in the article also "works on women," that is, women shouldn't treat men this way either.
Damn, it is so hard to get the spellcheck to stop changing "mutatis mutandis" to "mutates mutants." What a debased world we live in!
I'll settle for one thing from women, since we're issuing demands here: "Stop demanding double standards."
So ... if you're going to tell me I shouldn't express sexual interest in women at work (I don't, and I don't want to start), then don't tell a woman she can tell a guy if she wants to fuck him. Cut that shit out.
I won't talk or ask about dating lives if all the women will shut up about them for like 8 consecutive minutes for the first time ever. Who do you think is really responsible for the bulk of office gossip, the dudes?
The behavior outlined in that piece is all bad, indeed. And with a couple of exceptions, most of it is more than 50 percent coming from women, at least at my last three workplaces. But female privilege means never registering the existence of massive double standards that you take advantage of daily.
"So ... if you're going to tell me I shouldn't express sexual interest in women at work (I don't, and I don't want to start), then don't tell a woman she can tell a guy if she wants to fuck him. Cut that shit out."
Yes, that's my other point.
The offspring of the sexual revolution is prudery? Is this too simple a point to make?
Don’t touch your female coworkers, ever. There might be exceptions—like she’s about to fall out of a window
When you are falling out a window I shall contemplate any action until action is irrelevant.
This "next wave" of stories is designed to make you forget about Harvey and the Democrats--it is all about YOU--you shit! They figure we will slink away when the blame shifts toward us. It also gets them off the hook for not writing about Harvey's serial molestation and investigating all the rumors they heard.
I retired before any of the women at work--or my section of the Earth in general--got up the nerve to tell me they wanted to fuck me. Sad. If that happened to everyone, the human race would end.
Don’t ask about her romantic life... Don’t tell women to smile... Don’t touch your female coworkers, ever... Don’t ask about a woman’s body... Don’t ask a woman how wide her vaginal canal has spread in anticipation of her fetus’ arrival... Don’t comment on a woman’s appearance... Don’t make jokes when the punchline is "I want to fuck you."
"DON'T. EVEN. BREATHE."
(The creepy guy grabbing the breast in the first snip even looks like Harvey Weinstein!)
So I'm just going to take issue with the last sentence:
Just that one? Not this one:
But the fact is, it’s you. It’s men. The social ill that we can’t quite put our finger on is men.
I'm so tired of women so lazy they can't be bothered to distinguish between losers and the rest. I'm not responsible for them any more than decent women are responsible for the authors sexism.
The left should ask themselves whether group guilt is likely to advance the interests of their constituent groups before they establish the principle rather than afterward. Obviously they want it accepted in circumstances where it helps and call people racist where it doesn't. But the last few years have shown us that's not going to happen.
Let's think a little in advance.
I hope wry humor is okay.
"you've touched her perfect body with your mind." - Leonard Cohen
OUT!
The key to a successful office environment is not hiring people like Kaitlin Menza.
You know, I was reading a romance novel the other day, and I was struck by how women themselves, in the books they write for other women to fantasize over, have such rich depictions of submissive, polite men who wait to be told when women want to fuck them.
How about we recognize the myriad of types of people and relationships and simply arm individuals with ideas of things to say or do in response to an unwelcome comment or action at work. Let’s enable individual agency, not try to lord over whole groups of people.
I remember a large guy and woman at the office sitting next to each other on a trip and the woman feeling airsick. When the meal arrived it just sat in front of her.
The guy asked, "Are you going to eat that?"
That ought to be the feminist ideal.
There is a hidden double standard as well. I can (and have) hit on and dated women in the workplace multiple times with nary a bad word spoken of me later on. That's because I can do it smoothly, and I'm in good shape and fairly good looking. But Weird Melvin from Accounts Payable cannot even dream of doing the same, because women wouldn't want to be hit on by him - not even a little.
Fact is, women will by and large at least react neutrally to a handsome, well-spoken guy lightly hitting on them at work, especially one that can take a hint if she's not into it or is in a serious relationship (although that has not always mattered and will never always matter - sad!). But a bumbling beta "nice guy" with no charm and less than average looks - forget it! Creep! Stalker!
Seen it a few times, and felt bad about it in one particular instance, since I gave the guy in question the advice that he should "work up the nerve to talk to her". Well, he did, and only intervention from myself and an uninvolved female colleague saved him from being reported for harassment. Well, maybe not reported per se, but certainly harangued and publically humiliated. And the real bitch of it was, this ill-fated attempt was actually the smoothest I'd ever seen him act - but not quite enough for the fickle sex.
When I left that company, the angered woman in question was dating a different coworker, who might not have approached her at the office - but probably did.
>How about we recognize the myriad of types of people and relationships and simply arm individuals with ideas of things to say or do in response to an unwelcome comment or action at work.
But that would help fix the problem. What's wrong with you?
"That in the slim's but a friendly word, that in the fat's impertinence."
- Sayers
But a bumbling beta "nice guy" with no charm and less than average looks - forget it! Creep! Stalker!
The handsome guy flirting with her raises her social status and self-esteem. Even if he doesn't go out with her, he affirms that a man at his level would be a match for someone like her.
The beta guy is just the opposite. His asking her out signals that he thinks she's attainable for him. She's not mad he's harassing her, she's mad that he has lowered how she and others now think of herself.
If the hot guy at the office is passing her by and the geeky coder is asking her out, it's like someone walking up and telling her she's not as attractive as she thinks she is.
Not to belittle actual harassment and generally treating women like second class citizens, but ... when does the clock run out on everybody bitching, 24x7x365, about how unfair life is for women?
Especially the patently silly idea that men, and ONLY men, ate 100% responsible for anything bad that ever happens to any woman, anywhere, ever?
It's getting quite tiresome, for all kinds of reasons, and I suspect it's already having the opposite effect of what is intended.
when does the clock run out on everybody bitching, 24x7x365, about how unfair life is for women?
It never runs out, but is interrupted whenever an African-American enters the room.
The victim hierarchy: Learn it. Know it. Live it.
The anger and bitching is part of the war between men and women, not a truth outside of it.
The nagging instinct, in particular.
Women have a hard time mostly because they're interested in the wrong things. Complex instead of simple.
I've found that if you don't take meetings with female coworkers in an open bathrobe and if you refrain from masturbating in front of them, most issues can be worked out in an atmosphere of civility and cordiality.. Even in non-office settings, like Starbucks, it's wise not to expose yourself and masturbate. Well, there's exceptions to every rule. Bill Clinton got elected President and Harvey Weinstein became the head of a major corporation with such informal gestures of affection and inclusion, but mostly it's a bad idea.......,I've found that most women reply in centimeters when you ask them how far they dilated. Really, I'm not some techie. I wish they'd respond in inches. That's so much more comprehensible and, in fact, polite. Don't assume knowledge that your coworker might not have.
"And if she wants to fuck you, she will tell you."
Then you can haggle.
I've had women tell me to smile. I just now realized I should be offended.
Is it still okay to undress them with your eyes?
Wait. Women saying they like my hair cut or that I'm losing weight is sexual harassment. God dann it. How did I never know this?
The list didn't expressly say not to snap bra straps, so I think that one's still okay.
"I'm begging you: Don't be a creep at work."
Everything creeps a woman out, if it is done by the wrong man.
I am Laslo.
"And if she wants to fuck you, she will tell you."
Not necessarily - at least, according to Bruce Springsteen.
I'm driving in my car
I turn on the radio
I'm pulling you close
You just say no
You say you don't like it
But girl I know you're a liar
'Cause when we kiss
Ooooh, Fire
Late at night
I'm takin' you home
I say I wanna stay
You say you wanna be alone
You say you don't love me
Girl you can't hide your desire
'Cause when we kiss
Oh, Fire
Fire
More reasons I am glad that I do not go to an office anymore.
On "ER", Julianne Margolis would announce her gyno state to her workplace:
I'm late
I'm spotting
I'm crowning
why am I not fired?
"57 Things I Need You to Stop Doing"
Aww, that's so cute, the poor little dear sounds like a mommy.
The real trick is not to be a creep in real life. It's very hard for a creepy guy to navigate interpersonal situations while trying to appear non-creepy. The rules aren't fixed and no amount of movies or articles can help give clear guidelines.
Don’t ask a woman how wide her vaginal canal has spread in anticipation of her fetus’ arrival... It's a fucking baby for us humans!
I actually support the right to abortion, but this kind of language is why I have so much sympathy for the other side.
The rules aren't fixed and no amount of movies or articles can help give clear guidelines.
Yeah they are, be rich, powerful, or good looking, preferably all three. For the rest of us, we have to find a way to get to know her first. But if you are only interested in her because she is hot, well, don't hate the player, hate the game.
"But the fact is, it’s you. It’s men. The social ill that we can’t quite put our finger on is men."
Or in other words, splooge stooges.
There's one thing I need her to stop doing, conflating Harvey Weinstein and Bill Clinton with all men. I will never ask you to a meeting alone in a hotel room the way Clinton did with Broaddrick, for example, in a bid to take you by surprise.
I don't get the opportunity to read the titles of all these womyns magazines since I travel a lot and, frankly, I don't want to finance people who hate me.
But I didn't travel forever. And as a younger gent, I saw hundreds of titles about 'how to turn him on' or '50 bedroom secrets which will make him yours, or 'how to make him fall in love with you' (Let me save the word count: Frequent sex, sandwiches, lingerie, touching often, being complimentary, and leaving the house on Sunday from 11 to 6 every other weekend)
However, never, not once, do I recall any articles to women on how not to be monstrously insulting to men. It seems taken for granted that no woman ever said anything horrid or offensive to a man.
This has not been my experience. There may be a niche market for you out there, Ms. Althouse.
But the fact is, it’s you. It’s men. The social ill that we can’t quite put our finger on is men."
I say we kick them all out in the woods without even a plumber.
Don’t ask a woman how wide her vaginal canal has spread in anticipation of her fetus’ arrival...
Oh, right! Like it's the guys who get into the down & dirty birthing details!
I was once in a meeting with 5 women, one of whom was a mother-soon-to-be. The other four women, all mothers with children, went on in excruciating detail about the travails of their various childbirths. I could see the eyes of the mother-to-be going wide with worry. I shut the conversation down by telling them that I needed to be at another client soon, so we needed to get the meeting going.
For obvious reasons, it isn't the guys who bring up the finer details of female biological function. Now, scatological humor. That's a different story....
"Yeah they are, be rich, powerful, or good looking, preferably all three"
You'll still be creepy, but those might make up for it for some women, who are often creepy in their own way. Men put up with a lot of creepy women who are beautiful.
If you're not those three, then you can't also be creepy. Be interesting.
Without reading the article....too early yet....I can remark that 57 is too damn many things to try to remember.
I'll read it after my 3rd cup of coffee.
Frankly, I would rather work with men than an office full of women. I've done both. Women are just too tedious, too much work, because they take offense at all sorts of things, are unreliable in their reactions, to much emotion and just won't shut up. You could never be direct with the women and always had to approach any work topic (practically any topic) from a twisting sideways direction to finally get to the point.
At least with the guys you know where you stand and you can be direct with them. Cut to the chase and get the danged job done. Men can take a joke. Women can't.
If I guy was 'hitting' on me I either ignored it, or just nicely deflected. Nice without hurting the guy's pride usually works. If nice didn't work, then I can revert to tactics learned in my misspent youth in some biker bars.
@FIDO,
However, never, not once, do I recall any articles to women on how not to be monstrously insulting to men.
You wanna see something really fucking ugly?
Pick up one of those women's magazines that has an article on spousal abuse of men by women & read the comments. They mostly boil down to "Yeah, I hit him. But the miserable pussy deserved all of it!".
"Now, scatological humor. That's a different story...."
My 3 year old boy started making random poop jokes the other day. As in, "look, there's poop!" then laughing and laughing as he walks around the exercise cycle. There's no poop, he just likes the thrill of saying "poop!" My wife's comment, "He's become a guy."
THE FACT IS, IT’S YOU. IT’S MEN. THE SOCIAL ILL THAT WE CAN’T QUITE PUT OUR FINGER ON IS MEN.
It seems that men are in the same boat as Democracy in that men are the worst possible sex in existence, except for the other one.
Or should I be more inclusive and say "other ones"?
Imagine the bitching if the men around the women in the workplace simply weren’t interested and ignored them. Making no excuses for boorish behavior, but the attention women receive, in general, is because we are attracted to them. Not because, on average, they are sterling company, scintillating raconteurs, great golfers, drinking buddies, experts with a wrench on a carburetor, or even know when to keep quiet once in awhile for god’s sake.
I take Billy Crystal’s side of his argument with Meg Ryan. It is a pipe dream to think that men, in the aggregate, are able to throttle the only natural impulse that makes them pure stupid. As annoying as it must be for an attractive women to have to fend off clumsy and caddish advances, it’s counterproductive to use too fine a sieve to sift out behaviors that are to be called sexual harassment in the workplace. All that will be left are the betacucks.
It is a pretty one-sided game when all that is permitted is that she’ll tell you if she wants to fuck you. At some point, it becomes more about power and less about abating annoyance
- Krumhorn
...she’ll tell you if she wants to fuck you.
Most men would be very happy with that world. Very few men love the chase, while most love the end result. If courtship could be reduced to one or both parties saying "Hey, wanna fuck" (an actual opening line used by a college acquaintance at parties) it would come very close to being a Leibnizean best of all possible worlds for guys.
The problem with this approach is that women do not use those words, in all their perfect clarity. The author & her ilk probably think that they do make their intentions clear to their male targets. She also has probably never asked the men in her life if they think she & other women are clear in their intentions & desires. If she had, she never would have written something that stupid.
Ten years ago or so I was substitute teaching a high school class.
A girl came in and announced her tests were negative, and she was not pregnant. I don’t remember the exact wording.
I ignored it, but was shocked...
If women want men to stop behaving like men in the workplace, they should stop behaving like women. I advise the following:
1) Dress in plain, shabby clothes
2) Do not wear makeup of any sort
3) Do not wear perfume, in fact, try to find a way to smell bad
4) Never smile
5) Get a bad haircut - maybe the spiky, henna-thing so favored by German women
6) Don't socialize with co-workers at all
Following these handy six tips should reduce the interest that men may have in you to a minimum.
Oh, I would suggest 7) pack on a few extra pounds, but you American girls have already outperformed in that area.
@kyzernick, I’ve been trying to put my finger on it — the riddle of disparate perceptions of, say, ted turner, warren Beatty and jack Nicholson versus bob packwood, bill o’reilly and Roger Ailes...I do believe you’ve nailed it.
Geez it is must seem so horrible out here in the workplace, I am surprised women even leave the house in the morning.
rharden is right about women a lot of the time, BTW, and their inconsistent rules for men.
This is from a review of the web site OMGYes, which is all about how to maximize the female orgasm, she says that no such site is needed for men, BTW.
Given the number of videos online that portray female masturbation as a turn-on for the straight male gaze, there is something fantastically refreshing and really quite arresting about seeing the same content repurposed for women’s own empowerment and pleasure.
... we are so unused to seeing women talking frankly and naturally about their desires and bodies, instead of performing a stereotypical, panting response to massage a male ego.
Then she goes on to say, in the same article
Not all of what OMGYes presents is revolutionary: the importance of feedback (which the site describes as “signalling”) is hardly a new concept in increasing sexual pleasure.
So you must find a way to "signal" your partner that doesn't "massage a male ego"!
No wonder that that woman who posed as a man for a year and wrote that book said it was very hard to deal with women, as a man, and funny that women so roundly criticized her for saying so.
"All bitches is crazy" It's the fucking truth.
"We are having a fetus shower!" Said no woman ever.
"When is the fetus due?" Said no human ever.
This is all about trying to remove the sense of the word baby that applies to the baby before he or she is born. Even Webster's dictionary removed that sense of the word baby, so if you were relying on a dictionary to understand the phrase "I felt the baby kick this morning!" You would be out of luck, because NewSpeak says that such a phrase is wrongthought bordering on crimethink.
"If she wants to fuck you, she'll tell you."
Maybe this is the girl who wrote the article!
This is not a parody, BTW: https://www.thenation.com/article/im-a-marxist-feminist-slut-how-do-i-find-an-open-relationship/
Ann Althouse said...
"Damn, it is so hard to get the spellcheck to stop changing "mutatis mutandis" to "mutates mutants." What a debased world we live in!"
Awesome.
I think the world has been elevated just a little bit by the existence of that comment.
I suppose it's too much to ask that women simply behave like ladies and men, like gentlemen.
In that vein, Kaitlyn (or however the hell your tacky millennial name is spelled), ladies don't tell men 'they want to fuck them.' Gentlemen don't tell women that, either. If you wanted to be treated with respect, try behaving like you have some for yourself.
'Am I the only one who's fuckin' normal anymore?' ~marshall mathers
I'll go with -
1) Stop with the unbelievably hypocritical double standards;
2) Stop with the Victorian idealism that sees women as weak and incapable of competing and interacting;
3) Stop hating men.
I would propose new terms to replace feminist - "anti-maleist" or maybe "maleaphobe".
I suppose it's too much to ask that women simply behave like ladies and men, like gentlemen.
'fraid so.
The problem men have is that often we fall for women before we really know them, then it seems there are no other fish in the sea, and suddenly they turn out to be whatever the female version of a "creep" is. Better to not take them too seriously, but evolution didn't build us that way, we are drawn to the honey trap, the survival of the species has depended on that.
But the fact is, it’s you. It’s men. The social ill that we can’t quite put our finger on is men."
The social ill huh? Without this "society" that men built, sweetie, you'd be living in a Hobbesian state of nature, which is a lot more unpleasant for women than for men.
I doubt the male praying mantis thinks about how after he has donated his splooge, that he will be the main course, he just is driven by instinct, as is she.
DBQ,
You reminded me of a bit from an old SF story by Harry Harrison. There's an exchange between the protagonist and the female lead where she remarks that she was being annoyed by a man in the bar the other day:
"I told him that if he didn't leave me alone I'd break his arm." "And did he?" "No, but after I broke his arm he did."
Blatant discrimination against people with social impairment/mental conditions that make social interaction more difficult or awkward (like autism).
There are a-gonna be some lawsuits!
The presence of a constant threat of a career-ending claim of sexual harassment for misunderstood/poorly executed social interactions (where the woman is the sole arbiter of what was proper or improper) sure sounds like it creates a hostile work environment for, say, autistic guys, no?
Boy a lot of that boils down to "don't talk to women in your office, since as a man you're sure to say something inappropriate."
I bet if I didn't Esquire'd be back in a few issues to tell me how my lack of small talk with women in my office hurts their careers, promotes gender segregation, and is a tool of the patriarchy.
"if it wants to meet its own high standards" What? The headline doesn't have nay standards, and is used to introduce a dishonest piece of prog propaganda.
"And you shouldn't do equivalent things to men in the workplace." Such a sweet thought.
@fizzy: "It clearly states that the problem is the existence of men." Hey, I called that one early, on another thread, when asked how the left could possibly deal with the embarrassment of HW, Hollywood, and lib complicity: they'll escalate. It's men! No men should be in charge! Men should do what women want! (And while we are at it, men should never want anything a woman doesn't want!)
Kyzernick said...There is a hidden double standard as well. I can (and have) hit on and dated women in the workplace multiple times with nary a bad word spoken of me later on. That's because I can do it smoothly, and I'm in good shape and fairly good looking. But Weird Melvin from Accounts Payable cannot even dream of doing the same, because women wouldn't want to be hit on by him - not even a little.
Laslo Spatula sais...Everything creeps a woman out, if it is done by the wrong man.
SNL: Sexual Harrassment & You
Thanks to all the commenters gratifying my confirmation bias with evidence for my point that the "it's men" escalation is risky for progs, since it will get men pissed off (as well as a bunch of women who know better).
"And if she wants to fuck you, she will tell you."
Here's to non-verbal communication, it goes without saying.
How long until the "men having sex with robots is hurting women, but women using vibrators is just fine" post?
Interesting how a feminist like Althouse manages to navigate a blog full of anti-feminist commenters.
Interesting how a feminist like Althouse manages to navigate a blog full of anti-feminist commenters.
Agreed. It shows there's no innate conflict between reasonable feminists and those the radical left calls anti-feminists. The conflict is really between the radicals and everyone else.
Rick said...
reasonable feminists
LOL.
"Here's to non-verbal communication, it goes without saying."
-- "Her lips said no. But her eyes... her eyes said 'read my lips.'"
"Interesting how a feminist like Althouse manages to navigate a blog full of anti-feminist commenters."
The left weighs in. No mention of Bill Clinton, of course, Harvey Weinstein is just one of the boys.
And on it goes. The road to hell, you know....
She seems nice.
This crap simply makes my head hurt.
Each day, I'm so, so glad I left the workplace 17 years ago, started my own business and work from home.
Today's workplace environment is a nut farm.
Years back, when I toiled in the corporate vineyards, I worked with a guy who was considered so creepy by women (and a few guys) that his official office nickname became "Creepy." He was of average height, weight and looks; but the way he carried himself and moved about the office gave off a "vibe" (for want of a better term) that exuded Sexual Creep. Once my girlfriend at the time, not knowing who he was or what he looked like, visited me at the office, and arrived in the office parking lot just as Creepy was parking his car. He never spoke to her or approached her, but when she finally got to my cubicle she whispered, "Who IS that guy? Is he some kind of sex pervert?" Women in the office used to ask me if it were safe to work in the office after hours if Creepy was around. I don't think being taller or of higher socioeconomic status would have made him significantly more attractive to the "girls" in the office.
One thing he did, which probably creeped the ladies out (although this was at a time when sexual talk was more common and accepted in the workplace) was talk incessantly about sex--so much so that even other straight guys felt uncomfortable.
Wherever this B!tj works must be a really happy place.
Wow, the galloping solipsism on steroids here:
"I saw one of our male cashiers walk over and massage the shoulders of one of the female cashiers. He may have seen it as a gesture of solidarity or whatever, but I was totally creeped out."
rhhardin wins the thread @ 5:57am! Tarrou @ 6:09am comes in a very close second! (Jeez, you morning people are on a roll today!)
Matthew Sablan,
You're doing it wrong.
"Very few men love the chase"
WTF???
tim in vt,
ALL of The Nation is a parody, include 'and' and 'the'.
I assume you meant to say, "This is not an intentional parody".
Interesting how a feminist like Althouse manages to navigate a blog full of anti-feminist commenters.
She doesn't really care...we're just a bunch of splooge stooges to her.
When do they install separate water fountains etc, for us men.
Tim, didn't you know, there are already bathrooms segregated by sex. Stop the madness!
I have worked my entire career in female-dominated hierarchies: social work and nursing. I am reasonably certain that the amount of sexual harassment (and even borderline assault) I have experienced is less than the great majority of women have experienced.
And yet it's not nothing, and no one, male or female, has ever called anyone out on it. I am not trying to assert that things are worse, only that they are different, and the difference matters when we are discussing male-female interactions in the workplace. Easy equivalences and comparisons disguise the truth.
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