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१२१ टिप्पण्या:
Yes, remove all the flags. Immediately. Only then can you stop eating yourselves. And be WOKE
The concept of Appropriation Offenses is bullsit. Like having to insist you are not "mansplaining" - once you accept the pemise, you've lost the battle.
Ann, perhaps you could add one more option:
What's a Zia Pueblo?
Why does Madison need a flag ? To rally the troops in the war on Middleton ?
It needs a British sub-flag like former colonies have.
Tuvalo would be a good model.
"The concept of Appropriation Offenses is bullsit."
Sitting Bull is not amused.
I think the Pueblo sued the State of New Mexico for appropriating their symbol for the State flag and the State Supreme Court told them to sit down and be quiet.
or was it Federal Court?
Zia sun symbol. New Mexico, it's not new and it's not Mexico.
Some troubled by appropriation of Zia Pueblo symbol.
Yet they mocked conservatives who were upset that Bob Guccione put Pia Zadora on the flag in 1983.
How about Yes, it is offensive, because it is butt-ugly.
I mean really, who designed that? The same person who came up with Hillary's campaign signs?
The more time they remain occupied with something this trivial, the less time they will have to inflict actual harm on their citizens.
Whatever Sheldon Cooper says on the subject is the way I'm gonna go.
Maybe the Zia Pueblo should quit THEIR cultural appropriations and give up the benefits of Western culture like electricity, cars, medicine.....
Have at it, Madisonians. When your life is a formless, grey void, don't complain, because you did it to yourselves.
Why does a city need a flag in the first place?
Any more to the point, why should anyone care what is on it?
Cultural appropriation is Bullshit.
Not sure what Sitting Bull has to do with that.
What is Madison doing with a flag? Is there a Madison Pledge of Allegiance? Is there a Madisonian code of flag etiquette? How do Madisonians salute their flag? Does Madison have an Anthem?
Flags first came into standard use in India, approximately 5000 years ago. Cultural Appropriation. Ban all flags.
I wasn't even aware that cities had flags. Why do cities need flags at all? I mean, unless we're reverting back to the old Greek/Roman style City-States. I suppose a lot of people in the anti-Trump crowd seem open to that idea with regards to sanctuary cities and Paris climate accords and the like.
Apparently City-States still exists after a fashion, with Singapore, Monaco, and Vatican City?
But what of the Sashimono?
Those flags on poles strapped to the backs of the Japanese infantry in the feudal era so they army could be directed from behind by the generals?
Let's see: grandchildren laughing, coffee, bacon, cinnamon rolls; no, flags didn't make the list of important things.
Pia Zadora didn't call Paris Hilton's mug shot artist, did she?
Wrong color for Zia sun symbol. I have a New Mexico state flag.
Aren't there PLENTY of Indian tribes up Madison way that have more historical relevance/connections to Madison whose symbols could have been used?
"robother said...
Does Madison have an Anthem?"
Yes, it's also an appropriation.
Are the "separation of church and state" crowd really just anti-Christian bigots? How come the Madison groups haven't sued the city to remove this religious symbol from the city flag?
When my son was in the second grade his teacher told us at a parent teacher conference that we needed teach him to use the term 'Native American.' Seems each class member had to write an essay about a friend. He wrote about his friend who is Indian. Teacher was NOT happy and just had to 'splain us the correct term. She looked genuinely confused when we told her that Indian was correct since our son's friend is indeed Indian, as in, born in India.
I wish I had the guts at the time to simply say "dots not feathers".
I guess the PC voice in my head wouldn't let me. Or maybe it was my mother's voice telling me to be nice.
Make stuff up. Whine, scream, break stuff. Get paid.
Rinse, repeat.
Blogger tcrosse said...Why does Madison need a flag ? To rally the troops in the war on Middleton ?
--
Flags are violence!
Free the gluten!
Actually, Madisonians may make an exception here in terms of respect for a flag.
It's a symbolic way to separate from the rest of the rubes under the state flag.
May I assume the Madison flag is always flown upside down and at half mast?
How about a beaver and two pussy cats--back-to-back? Something appropriate for Madison.
I thought Madison had a flag.
I'm offended yet again at the propagandic misuse of the word "appropriate" as well as the assumption that the flag was not designed by a Zia Amerindian.
They should borrow from the flag of Guatemala (which otherwise uses the same colors) but replace the Pueblo symbol with a gun. 'Cause they're at war with the rest of the state.
Never driven a Zia Pueblo, but the Koreans are making pretty good cars these days so I guess it's OK.
Michael, a few years ago I was driving into Madison and was surprised to see a billboard promoting.....was it the Capital Times?.....using USSR imagery to promote their paper. If they had a sense of humor, they should have had a note at the bottom saying "No Ukrainians were murdered in the erections of this billboard".
The stripe is for white power, correct? It's just sitting there mocking the non-whites.
My POV is that the flag itself is stupid and doesn't reflect Madison.
It should be a giant white fist punching a black dude in the name of justice.
Professor, you are doing a great job tracking the plague of madness sweeping the nation.
I wonder what is going to happen to put an end to all this lunacy.
* Yes. It purports to represent Madison, but has no red in it.
NOW I get it--the worst thing about Nazi Germany wasn't starting wars of conquest or genocide, it was appropriating a Hindu-Sanskrit symbol without getting permission.
Damn!!!!
A better sun symbol for Madison has a smiley face. It's OK to appropriate that unless you write "Have nice day" near it (true story!).
Not offended at all, but I do think it's very stupid to use a Pueblo symbol on a flag in Wisconsin. That makes as much sense as Houston putting Pacific Northwest totem carvings on its flag.
Well, the gal who wants to change the name of James Madison Memorial High School in Madison Wisconsin said that once she does that, she will move onto getting the city of Madison to change its name. Seriously.
An Art Deco Butthole Flag! Community did this very well....
This just needs a little modification..
It honors the mayor's nickname at one time..
But ... Washington Redskins!
So why hasn't Madison changed its name so that it isn't honoring a dead slaveowner?
The idea that a city needs a flag is mildly ludicrous. You clearly pay your city council too much; you should cut their hours and their wages.
Ron said...
An Art Deco Butthole Flag!
Hey, its sacred! Don't be profane! Your comment would be prohibited under that Wisconsin speechifying law thingy.
But ROR anyway.
"Mitch H. said...
The idea that a city needs a flag is mildly ludicrous."
Chicago has a flag.
Paul Zrimsek said...
* Yes. It purports to represent Madison, but has no red in it.
That was to keep from culturally appropriating the Diver Down flag.
This whole “cultural appropriation” thing is stupid in my opinion, just another piece of the fracturing of our society. In Madison a few people have decided there is a problem, so I guess there is a problem. As to the Zia Sun symbol, the linked story at isthmus.com is a decent start for background.
A half-century plus of living in New Mexico and having an interest in culture and history has provided opportunity to have an acquaintance with the Zia Sun symbol and its story.
An April 21, 2015 Albuquerque Journal (https://www.abqjournal.com/572687/zia-pueblo-say-they-want-symbol-used-respectfully.html) story, picked up from the Portales New Tribune (pntonline.com) provides a reasonable summary. Zia.com discusses the symbolism which might apply n Madison.
In the story, Robert Medina, attorney for the Zia Pueblo people, said “the Zia Pueblo people (are) not so much about asking entities to stop using the symbol entirely but asking that they use it respectfully. ‘We know we cannot remove the Zia Sun Symbol from people’s minds,’ Medina said, adding that once a symbol is out in society, it’s out for good. ‘What we would like to do is ask people to ask us for permission to use the sun symbol and use it respectfully,’ Medina said, saying that the Pueblo people will consider each request individually.”
I don’t remember seeing the Sun symbol used on a background as it it in Madison. It looks odd. But so what.
Madison needs a flag. Like berserker Berkeley it's too good for the rest of the state that should be honored to host it. And if you doubt that, just ask one of the local anti-fas.
If you're lucky, you won't get a bike lock slapped up longside your head. That's what happens to doubters in Berkeley.
The Zia Pueblo own the sun. We need to pay them rent for its use.
Mixed-up appropriation of the Argentine flag.
New Mexico should sue.
A confederacy of dunces.
I was going to suggest a white flag, but that's racist, so I started running thru the color pallet and suggest Puce Green.
Cultural expropriation is worse. That's when you take a symbol from them and don't even let them use it anymore. Like taking the McDonalds name from the McDonald brothers.
Kevin said...
The stripe is for white power, correct?
Yes. Thanks for pointing that out.
- The stripe was invented in what is now India, at least 7,000 years ago.
- The color white was invented in what is now China, over 11,000 years ago.
- The concept of "diagonal" was invented in ancient Egypt and was used to design the edges of the pyramids.
- "Rectangle" dates back to the creation of the Earth itself, 6,000 years ago, when the Earth was flat and rectangular so it'd fit on maps better.
Replace it with the Hammer and Sickle. The Russians don't use it anymore
This idea that we need to ask permission to use a symbol is deeply offensive and very much of the totalitarian mindset that began with complaints of "disrespect" and speech codes that give the most-offended listener the highest veto. It simply doesn't work and the only correct answer is to tell the proponents to FOAD.
A relevant example IMHO is the claim asserted by people purporting to speak for Indigenous Peoples. They say that knowledge (e.g. That boiled willow root makes a medicinal tea, now called salicylic acid or aspirin) was the result of their tribal lore and cannot be used without royalties. Seriously, this BS happens. My only answer has to be: life is unfair. The guys with guns cane along and it is their system of property rights that currently prevails. Public domain beats your claim. Thanks for playing.
The whole concept of cultural appropriation was appropriated from the movie Bring It On where the evil white California cheerleader captain went into to Compton to steal routines from the Compton Clovers.
Since I never saw that symbol before, at this point, what difference does it make?
But the Zia shouldn't wear jeans or speak English. Or have telephones, I phones or AC. That should make New Mexico more pleasant for them.
Typical Madison- it couldn't even culturally appropriate Wisconsin Indians.
I thought socialism was all into appropriation...
Capitol Report New Mexico said...
In the story, Robert Medina, attorney for the Zia Pueblo people, said “the Zia Pueblo people (are) not so much about asking entities to stop using the symbol entirely but asking that they use it respectfully. ‘We know we cannot remove the Zia Sun Symbol from people’s minds,’ Medina said, adding that once a symbol is out in society, it’s out for good. ‘What we would like to do is ask people to ask us for permission to use the sun symbol and use it respectfully,’ Medina said, saying that the Pueblo people will consider each request individually.”
Probably best I'm not a judge. An attorney who said this in court would get to hear me laugh for two or three minutes, then ask him to produce the copyright papers. When he said he couldn't, I would tell him not to waste the court's time like this, and next time he did he would be in contempt.
Madison's flag should have an angry, genderless white person, without a black, red, yellow, or brown person anywhere nearby, burning the American flag.
I mean, if it's supposed to be representative.
What a rag you read in Madison. There's no link to the Zia symbol. I voted for: "STFU lefty weasels".
"Yancey Ward said...
Typical Madison- it couldn't even culturally appropriate Wisconsin Indians."
You mean have a casino chip or something?
I was thinking the same, thing, Yancy. Bad show.
The town of Bedford, Mass. has a flag, designed in the 17th century. It is the first flag in the English speaking colonies. It is an arm holding a sword up. They still have one of the originals tucked away in the library. Bedford's flag would kick Madison's flag's ass in a fight. I remind myself to someday check it out every time I drive past.
Yancy is right! Here's a symbol that was used by the Ho-Chunk (also called Winnebago) tribes that lived in the Madison area. Quite appropriate from what I gather.
What offends me is that they could have chosen a different shade of cyan to go with that yellow that would have worked better, really popped, and yet they didn't. Seems like a lot of flags were designed by amateurs. Maybe they could have gone full appropriation and used turquoise.
Surf City, NJ has its own flag, but most people prefer the L.B.I. flag instead.
Nobody would choose the Ocean County flag, nor the New Jersey flag. But plenty of U.S. flags.
That would be five levels of flags if you wanted to fly them all.
( Of course, the Surf City Yacht Club has its own flag, so if you were a member, that would be six levels... )
(@Yancey, sorry about misspelling your name there.)
Madison should have a flag that represents the ethnic make up of the city. Therefore I propose an all white rectangular flag with a small smear of brown down in one coroner. Now, this would look like a flag of surrender that somebody wiped their ass with, but I don't see that as inappropriate for Madison, WI.
My question - why was this design chosen.
There must be reason back there somewhere.
Maybe it's a good reason.
Look before leaping to any conclusion
ted
Mitch H: "So why hasn't Madison changed its name so that it isn't honoring a dead slaveowner?"
I assumed they were honoring Daryl Hannah's first starring role character.
The flag is worse, far worse than anyone realizes. It was designed by an all-male Scout drum and bugle corps the days when they didn't admit gays and the corps won prizes for its militaristic, marching, bugling and drumming. Right there you know.
The blue and white represent the two lakes at Madison and the isthmus between them where Madison is.
The symbol in the center represents the shape of the Wisconsin statehouse on the isthmus between the two lake of Madison with the Zia pueblo symbol superimposed. The New Mexico symbolism here is obscure. It may have acknowledged that the corn raised near Madison came from Mexico probably through New Mexico to the pueblo people and then to all the tribes of North America and then to the settlers. It may have been a comment on Madison using the old-time vernacular word "corny" which can become "crony".
Madison was a slaveholder so that I suggest that we rename the place Sogland (so appropriate), burn the present evil Madison flag, and hold a hunger-games type contest. The winner gets to be mayor of Sogland design a new flag. And the same every year. And rename the educational institution located in Sogland Multiversity of, of, oops, cultural appropriation going on there too. The name means "river through red land" but it is a French word appropriating a Miami word and the Miamis are an Ohio tribe, not a Wisconsin tribe. so I think Winnebago would be a better name. Multiversity of Winnebago. Perfect. And maybe we could change Madison-Sogland to "Red River Through the Land" or Wisconsin.
"Look before leaping to any conclusion"
This is the internet man! 90% of us think it's a joke anyway as long as nobody appropriates anything from the Nazis.
As a Minnesotan, I would offer to let Madison use an artistic rendition of the scaffolds that the Walker Art Center just took down, in place of the Zia.
Swede @ 11:06
heh.
Update- Governor Walker to be indicted over made up Stalinist charges... any... minute... now.
As a Christian Nation we used to promote the Protestant work ethic with symbols of strong men and women working their successful farms and businesses.
Now we seem to have have fallen into promoting insane Mohammedan Ideology that outlaws our depiction of a man or natural object. All that is left are geometric shapes.
Relocate Madison to New Mexico. Problem solved.
But the Zia appropriated the idea of boiling willow root from the paleo-natives that they drove into extinction.
Blogger Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...Relocate Madison to New Mexico. Problem solved.
Actually a twofe.
1. Althouse and Meade could relocate "in place".
2. All Frank Lloyd Wright architecture could be replaced by adobe.
...she will move onto getting the city of Madison to change its name...
Madison is the sixteenth most popular girl's name. It was number one for a while. That's a lot of stationary to change along with all the statuary.
These questions should all be first framed as, "In accordance with the left-wing narrative...." Nobody cares about offensive flags, but left-wing PC yahoos.
Madison should replace its current flag with the appropriated flag of San Lorenzo. Also, make Bokononism the official city religion.
Is "offensive" something that is decided by democratic consent? Rather, it seems to me that it's usually a small number of cranks who are under the bizarre notion that because they feel "offended," something must be done about it. The offended have the exact same right as the offensive: to say what they damn well please.
Madison could redesign the flag with a red capital M in the white field, but that would be appropriating the Roman alphabet.
The name of that city in Northern California, "San Francisco," deeply offends me, and should be changed.
It culturally appropriates the Spanish Language (St. Francis), and improperly endorses a Christian view, causing an undue entanglement of religion, barred by the First Amendment.
Also, the actual physical land was obtained through an Imperialist War against Mexico.
It also has a small segregated area, near Pine St. and Grant called "Chinatown" which systematically excludes Mexicans and blacks and gays.
To deal with all these macro and micro aggressions, I demand a "safe space" -- and I don't mean Oakland:)
It's a living symbol of a people passed. Some might considered it a homage of sorts.
That said, humanity should focus its causal capacity on progressive reinvention (i.e. punctuated chaos) in order to avoid the appearance of appropriation.
re: progressive reinvention (i.e. punctuated chaos)
In light of catastrophic anthropogenic generational appropriation we should call for a moratorium on reproduction until we discover a foolproof method that will enable each generation to avoid appropriation from preceding generations. The risk of appropriating language, culture, knowledge, technology, privilege, and, yes, symbols, is too great to ignore. They should be buried and forgotten.
Relocate Madison to New Mexico?!? NOOOO!!! I live in new Mexico and it is Looney enough without injecting additional Madison Moonbeam Madness.
Yeah, you guys already have Sante Fe and Taos, you don't need Madison!
I think the Japanese Rising Sun flag is pretty darn cool. We won that one fair and square.
The stripe is for white power, correct?
No, the stripe means Madison is the City of Bastards.
I don't know, or want to know, the history of that flag.
To me, it looks like it was a design competition for elementary school kids.
As far as heraldry goes, it sucks. The blue makes me think of Sweden, and the white makes me think of Norway.
Thus Norway is like a tire track on Sweden, and the Indians were all killed about half-way.
Madison is offensive. How can the flag not be?
That black and yellow doodad can be found in one variation or another all over Pre-Columbian Mexico, in some cases associated with Toltec ruins. The use of the symbol by the Zia tribe can't be established much before the early 16th century, so they appropriated the symbol as well.
Sorry AA, I thought once you left the confines of your University - the PC madness - we would finally get some decent information not varnished by Leftists dribble. In this article you failed! One, the flag looks more like the national flag of Argentina and the symbol of Zia tribe is BS, since such a symbol has been around historically long before the tribe was recognized as distinct and culturally separate from other tribes.
Since there are a limited number of colors and design elements in the world, everything can be viewed as reminding one of something else. People claim the accounting term "in the black" is racist (though in the black means profitable), that a "white sale" (of linens) is racist, that flagpoles are phallic symbols....
Just because x reminds you z does not mean you get to object--there will be nothing left.
What about--No, it looks like a symbol for one of those roundabouts, which are all the rage for intersections these days.
Don't you have a picture of a peony?....or clouds over the lake?
I read the article. It's not the 'crazy left' that is requesting the flag be changed, it is the Zia Pueblo people that are. There is a difference. The 'crazy left' often thinks there is appropriation when there is not. They are often too sensitive. But the design is a Zia Pueblo design. Some of the Zia Pueblo want it changed. So consider that.
That looks like a cross to me. What are they thinking?
"Matt said...
I read the article. It's not the 'crazy left' that is requesting the flag be changed, it is the Zia Pueblo people that are. There is a difference....But the design is a Zia Pueblo design. Some of the Zia Pueblo want it changed."
Did you? Because you apparently missed this:
“But the use of that sun emblem — a sacred symbol of the Zia Pueblo people of New Mexico — gives Ald. Arvina Martin pause.
It does give the appearance of the Capitol,” says Martin. “But, unfortunately, it’s also an extremely sacred symbol to people that didn’t really have a say in how that symbol was going to be used.”
Martin is a member of the Ho-Chunk Nation and the first Native American to serve on the Common Council. She says native people have long been put off by the cultural appropriation of the Zia sun symbol on Madison’s flag.
“The Zia Pueblo is a very distinct tribe. They’ve never been up here, they are in the Southwest,” Martin says. “I don’t think the folks that created the flag had any ill-intentions or did this out of maliciousness. I just think people now have a greater understanding of cultural appropriation and how that relates to symbols and ideas. It’s something that we need to think about.”
So a Madison Alder wants to talk about changing it. There is nothing in the story about any Zia Pueblo wanting it changed.
That flag has white Christian murder and rape written all over it.
I like it.
Professor, here is a story that should be good for a long thread....you see the UW-Stevens Point lawsuit?
http://www.stevenspointjournal.com/story/news/education/2017/06/07/uwsp-student-asks-court-force-poetry-professor-give-her/357759001/
The only solution, as I see it, is to expunge all traces of African and native American symbolism from American life. Anything else would be racist, you see.
Matt wrote: Some of the Zia Pueblo want it changed. So consider that.
Firstly Zia Puelo is a place on a map, not a person or persons. They are Zia People or just the Zia. The Zia People must explain why they stole it in the first place.
I gave their petition all the consideration it deserves.
Fuck 'em.
robother asked: "What is Madison doing with a flag? Is there a Madison Pledge of Allegiance? Is there a Madisonian code of flag etiquette? How do Madisonians salute their flag? Does Madison have an Anthem?"
San Antonio has a flag, not that I could describe it to you. And we have an anthem of sorts. It's best as originally sung by Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys, "San Antonio Rose."
First, the Zia must hand over all purchased clothes, shoes, watches, any filled teeth or dentures, any artificial joints, prostheses, heart valves, any and all motor vehicles, saddles and other horse gear, anything made of plastic, iron, steel, brass, aluminum, magnesium, germanium, all electronics of any description, all packaged or preserved food contained in glass, metal, or plastic, all USDA approved medications, all woolen cloth or yarn, all cotton, all silk, all dacron, nylon, and kevlar. all livestock except dogs, all botanicals except beans and non-hybridized corn, all inks, all paper items, all graphite pencils, all paints containing latex, acrylic, petroleum or petroleum distillates, all fuels except wood and animal fats, all vitrified ceramics, all porcelain ceramics, all leather made from the hides of cattle, sheep, goats, or horses, Anything printed or handwritten in English, Spanish, German, Italian, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Polish, Czech, Romanian, Bulgarian, Arabic, Latin, Greek, Turkish, Swahili, Dutch, Afrikaans, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Latvian, Lithuanian, Croatian, or Hindi.
Then we'll talk about cultural appropriation.
And if anyone cares to call me out for being arch in this matter, notice I have chosen not to challenge the Zia over their appropriation of anything Tibetan, Nepalese, or Ethiopian.
Maybe if re[resents the isthmus between the lakes
maybe the symbol represents the capitol building O with
the lines showing the four directions of the compass.
someone must know.
ngtrains wrote: someone must know.
Quaestor knows.
Isthmus be your lucky day!
You all need to stop typing now, and return your f*cking stolen alphabet.
From whom did the Zia Pueblo acquire their emblem?
Nothing is original.
http://www.tmealf.com/GFBF.pdf
Rule 2: Use Meaningful Symbolism. The flag’s images, colors, or patterns should
relate to what it symbolizes . . .
Rule 5: Avoid duplicating other flags, but use
similarities to show connections . . .
The thing is, local native tribes, like the Ojibwe and the Winnebago have powerful symbols in their history. If they wanted to honor, no wait, pay homage to, no wait... appropriate a native design, it was right there. An eagle, a turtle, a crow, as stylized by a local native artist, would have been perfect, whoops, I mean egregiously offensive.
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