ADDED: Jaltcoh — my son, John Althouse Cohen — is live-blogging. He's good at this. Check it out.
AND: On watching the debate straight through: That was intense. Those 2 faces on the split screen for 90 minutes was quite the ordeal. How many times did Trump lean into the microphone and say "wrong" while Clinton was speaking? There was plenty of interrupting from both candidates, and it almost turned into the event that Trump had proposed: No moderator. Not that Lester Holt didn't attempt to fact-check Trump a few times.
Trump brought a lot of stress to the event, and Clinton certainly stood up to him. She even managed to flash a smile a number of times — even though there was never a thing to smile about (and really no humor whatsoever). Clinton never coughed, and there was no flagging of energy. It was Trump who needed to drink water and wipe the sweat from his upper lip with his finger a few times. Clinton was a bit artificial, but she never got dead and robotic the way we've seen elsewhere.
Substantively, it's mostly a blur now. Trump seemed strong talking about law and order and, later, blaming Clinton for the rise of ISIS. Clinton got very severe accusing Trump of racism early on (over the issue of whether Barack Obama was born in the U.S.A.) and, at the end, sexism (letting fly with a prepared list of misogynistic things Trump supposedly did or said).
Overall, I'll just say that was very unpleasant and I'm glad it's over. I switched it off without stopping to listen to any of the spin.
UPDATE: Poll results:
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368 पैकी 1 – 200 नवीन› नवीनतम»Bill Clinton just entered the hall. He looks very old. Trump's family looks young.
Apple trumps pear, figuratively speaking. Trump wins!
Being serious for a moment, what great and glorious achievements will Bill Clinton be remembered for?
First question Clinton catalogs all the give aways she supports.
what great and glorious achievements will Bill Clinton be remembered for?
Welfare reform.
Repeal of banking regulations.
Firing missiles at bin Laden in Afghanistan when we were not at war with them.
Hillary's eyes are diverging!
No fly zone in Iraq
Policy to overthrown Saddam...
The list goes on.
Are we supposed to drink when her eye gets away from her?
Is this another "Hillary is like Nixon" moment? Is it poetic justice for her enabling her husband's "wandering eye"?
Trumps loud and constant sniffing is grossing me out.
The sniffing is bad. He needs to lay off the Coke pre-debate.
It appears Hillary is going to try to get under Trump's skin. But she is playing that card too early and transparently.
The moderator already is hostile to Trump, and refuses to interrupt Clinton when she runs long.
I also like how Trump keeps saying things like "approximately" and "semi-exact." It's like he's daring Holt.
No one made that assumption ["trade is the only issue."]
Investment = Spending other people's money to buy votes
What the heck?
Clinton: "That can't be let to stand."
Holt: "Ok, sure thing."
That's the moment I realized the moderation is given in.
Hillary is way more orange than Trump is by far.
Trump is stronger
Trump is calling for tax cuts for everyone -- not just the wealthy.
Disingenuous split screen. Hillary! is the same size as Trump!
LOL! Trump already having a meltdown.
Notice that the tops of their heads are at the same level but Trump's shoulders are noticeably higher.
Clinton's "Blame me for everything."
"Saying more crazy things."
It might be her two minutes, but she chose to engage Trump. When Trump chose to engage her, Holt didn't cut her off.
Hillary already has that smiley smirk thing going.
Trickle down wasn't going on in 2008/9.
Wait -- top-down is the OPPOSITE of tax cuts for everyone. Top-down is about power, not money. Top-down is when the government pushes things down to people.
"Hillary already has that smiley smirk thing going."
What about the open mouth thing that Althouse likes to point out? Is HRC doing that?
... Really? Tax returns?
Conflicts of interest for Trump is an actual question?
Is it me or is she blinking a lot?
Wait -- Holt is engaging Trump about the IRS? What sort of moderation is this?
Any questions from Lester on her private server?
Matthew, trickle down has been going on all of Obama's terms.
Jelly: Her meds haven't worn off yet. Wait for it.
April: No. This moderation is terrible.
Whoa. Wait. Holt is NOW admonishing the audience? They've been making noises the entire time.
Now would be a good time for Trump to mention the Clintons made 250 million for selling access and the US down the river for the Media Industrial Complex Lester works for.
He just told you why he won't.
God what a fucking disaster.
Generalizations and bullshit.
This entire argument from Clinton is horrible. It assumes the worst about Trump, and then argues via innuendo.
Remember when Harry Reid lied about Romney's taxes?
It wasn't a mistake. It was a conscious choice.
"That makes me smart!" - Trump
Which is why I said "tiny sips."
Trump is right there. I'd be fine with a lot of debt if we were getting something for it.
He should stop talking side issues and get to the point: why did foreigners give her so much money and what did they get in return?
What about the women Bill stiffed?
Thousands of people stiffed -- no names. No examples.
Notice that Trump's attacks are political, and Clinton's are nasty, personal innuendo and jabs? I bet we'll hear tomorrow though that Clinton took the high road.
What about the people who died because Clinton was an inept secretary of state?
Trump needs to focus on what she's done wrong and not defend the minutiae of his business. She's putting him on the defensive.
@jelly: more smiley smirk!
“it must be something important” or “terrible” that Trump is trying to hide. - HRC
But my tens of thousands of deleted emails? Yoga classes and recipes!
Under budget, ahead of schedule: That's... that's such a simple argument.
I thought that too Tim.
When Trump holds something back -- he's nefarious. When Clinton hides something, it was a mistake. Whoops!
Hillary is under a heavy load of Botox
I'm anti-Hillary (as opposed to pro-Trump). As a result, I am rooting for Trump, but Hillary seems more focused to me. I've never been able to stand to listen to Trump, and this evening is no exception.
His tax returns are all she has.
Face it, Trump is willing to fight, but Carly would be fileting her like a perch right now.
How do you heal the divide?
"That's not the president's job. We can eliminate discrimination in the criminal justice system, but race as an issue is something that local communities need to work with each other. Even if the government COULD solve it, the way it would solve it would be a mask, not a solution."
Face it, Trump is willing to fight, but Carly would be fileting her like a perch right now.
And thats a fact Jack!!
Hillary does not look sick and weak. In fact she is yelling through this. Lots of air in those lungs.
"It's a shame the dire picture Trump paints of black communities."
"By the way, most young blacks are killed by guns."
Hillary punts on Chicago crime.
Hillary just said stop and frisk was found unconstitutional because it didn't work. Is that how the constitution works?
shorter Hillary: " We have to let those people free!"
The terrorist watch list cannot be used to remove rights since there's no way for people to check it.
Hillary is against stop and frisk but wants the guns out of the hands of criminals. Totally hypocritical.
Guns out of the hands of even potential criminals.
Matthew Sablan - You are correct, and Trump just walked into the trap.
He tried to have it both ways by saying giving people legal help to get off it.
Trumps missing on prosecuting Hillarys lying and corruption. Foundation maybe?? Wtf
Wait... what? He criticized her preparation?
I missed that.
Why didn't Holt check the audience with the applause there?
Apart from the watch list comment, I thought his law and order answers were terrific.
He took so long because there were legit reasons to doubt. End of story.
Lester Holt is the most biased moderator I've ever seen. He isn't even pretending to be neutral. It's a farce.
@jelly: she was just halfway there to the open mouth thing!
Wait. Did Holt NOT admonish the audience for laughing at Trump?
Do they only need to be admonished when they are loud against Clinton?
The racist lie was started by the Clinton campaign though, per CNN.
I think it is a wash.
Prediction: She won't go near the Sid Blumenthal allegation and Lester won't press her on it.
I just turned this on. She is kicking his ass.
Let's ask Althouse to rehash the whole facts and evidence of the birther thing.
What about the book blurb?
Side by side, he's looking down on her and she's looking up.
Wait. There was no admission of guilt?
Then... what's the point of the argument?
No way you can convince me she wasn't given the questions ahead of time
She called him a racist.
Ugly.
DJT is missing out on the strongest charge against Hillary's disrespect for Obama. Her 2008 campaign justified its longevity into the spring/summer months by saying that he could be assassinated, as RFK was. It was despicable. Why did he not point THAT out? Stupid Donald. I think he's cracking a little. Or maybe was always just a plant to usher her in.
Cyber security is a big challenge for people who can't follow rules, yes.
Holt is a terrible moderator. He's letting them muck around at a low level.
Hillary on internet security..
Thats rich
Putin is a bad guy, sure.
Too bad no one believed Romney years ago.
Trump seems to be tiring a bit, unfocused and rambling. Hillary is in her element talking like a politician.
"He's letting them muck around at a low level."
-- When Hillary has the advantage, yes. He cuts Trump off frequently. He also has no problem deferring to Clinton when she asks for time. He also lets the audience try to get under Trump's skin.
He's bad, but not Candy Crowley bad.
"She called him a racist."
She said he engaged in "racist business practices". Difference. So did the Federal government when they took him to court. Trump never denied he din't do it. He said "I never admitted to it".
Why did he not point THAT out?
He is quite possibly as dim as she is. I am still not resigned to the idea that one or the other of this pair is going to be our president.
Mutaman: Sorry. Doesn't work. If they settled with no admission of guilt, they're not guilty. Using innuendo to imply they were is wrong.
When did Mutaman stop beating his wife, anyway?
He is inarticulate. "The security aspect of 'cyber'...?" Use the complete word phrases, Donald.
Trump should go back to interrupting Hillary and being more aggressive. If we are just going to score them on the coherency of their words he loses bigly.
Uh-oh! Trump fat-shamed the hackers!
@R & B
I think he's cracking a little. Or maybe was always just a plant to usher her in.
That's what I thought from the get go. We were promised by Trump fan boyz that Trump would demolish Clinton in a debate.
I think a lot of the other candidates would be demolishing her in a debate.
Back to Iraq! That's a winner.
Gah.
I stopped for awhile to think. Hillary is at her best and Lester Holt in Candy Crowleying so Trump is debating two people. But I think he is winning. People are on his side on the issues and he looks OK - not some kind of madman. He is getting in some hits, so is she. But he looks like a possible president. That's all he had to do.
He had a good moment in pointing out that he prefers endorsements from military leadership than from politicians. He needs to ask her how many wars she wants to start. This guy could get the peace vote. Hillary hates "her" party's progressive wing. RFK's speechwriter is apparently endorsing Trump on peace and stability grounds. If Trump really wants progressive votes, he needs to go after them much more aggressively. It wouldn't be a very credible play, but the opportunity is totally there.
Well, most of recorded history, men have been ruled by corrupt coalitions of cronies and hangers on, why should we be any different?
http://firebrandleft.com/university-100-accuracy-record-predicts-bernie-sanders-will-americas-next-president/
Yeah, we're fucked.
"That's what I thought from the get go. We were promised by Trump fan boyz that Trump would demolish Clinton in a debate."
As someone already noted, the Drudge poll will show that he won, by a lot.
And, don't forget to look for confirmation from Fox's Frank Luntz focus group.
Hillary's doing a great job in terms of presentation but she's lying through her teeth without any hint of hesitation or remorse. It's kind of creepy.
@april: who is that vaunted other candidate whom you never name?
Vacuum up intelligence? Everyone's getting in on the stupid phrases tonight!
Trump needs to demolish her. Never let up on that private server. Never let up on the Clinton foundation. Never let up on how she used her position of power to enrich herself.
Neither candidate is really doing what they needed to do tonight. A positive message about change is what would have won here tonight. I predict the trends aren't going to change on this debate. Both have a lot to learn for the next encounter.
I love all the beating of the war drums against Putin, BTW. It's very sexy!
16 - chick. Any of them.
Bill Clinton signed the revolutionary Line Item Veto Act of 1996. That was the single greatest bit of legislation ever passed by Congress and President Clinton became my hero for that one thing.
There is no doubt that Clinton's legacy demonstrates no greater achievement.
Hillary gets extra points for looking good and surviving.
Hillary's warmongering is her weakest point, I suspect - at least on policy grounds. If he doesn't take advantage of the opportunity to really hammer at that, as the MSM is finally starting to, then I doubt he will solidify any momentum at chipping away at her favorables.
Electoral favorables, I meant.
then I doubt he will solidify any momentum at chipping away at her favorables.
Well, you have to admit, they are a pretty small target.
Do either of them really HAVE favorables? Or more like... resignables?
"We've covered this ground!"
She actually expected Holt to step in and stop this.
Trump is a disaster tonight. Sweeping generalizations, no policy prescriptions, and very few if any specifics. His strong suits seem to flailing and bloviating. Hillary has him totally flummoxed. Did he prepare at all?
Ask how they are going to fix Social Security and most of all Medicare Chester.
Naaah....no one will care when they lose their bennies
@april: your whole online Schlick has been cheerleading for an unnamed Republican "other" . I want to know who he or she is is. Tonight.
AprilAppple, I agree. Every time she mentioned "presidential" he should have had 12 comebacks at the ready. President of what--a banana republic? Presidential? Since when is extorting money for personal gain from Wall Street (American) Presidential? Ugh, I'm tired, her voice wears me out, but you get my drift.
"Mutaman: Sorry. Doesn't work. If they settled with no admission of guilt, they're not guilty. Using innuendo to imply they were is wrong."
When the reasonable is is falsely accused of something, he says "I didn't do it"
He doesn't say "I never admitted to it"
Trump through his lawyer Roy Cohn (you heard right) agreed not to discriminate in the future and agreed to take out adds telling black people that he would rent to them.
With an open mind, this is actually interesting to watch. But Trump definitely comes across as much less knowledgeable and focused. TO some extent, that helps him. But he can't seem to be flailing on basic policy knowledge ground. She is definitely more confident in this - and has every reason to be.
His entire strategy against the 16 Republican clown car candidates is not working at all in this debate.
"Who knows?" (in response to his retelling of what he said. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Shut up, Donald. He's digging himself into a hole.
So... Sean Hannity's going to be getting lots of phone calls, huh?
I swear it's been three minutes since he started talking about his private conversations with Sean Hannity. This is painful.
Ask how they are going to fix Social Security and most of all Medicare Chester
Simples! By seizing the life savings of people who prepared for retirement to pay the money to those who didn't! Err, I mean means testing SS!
"We've covered this ground!"
She actually expected Holt to step in and stop this.
She didn't need him to. It was an effective interjection. Called him out as a flailing time waster. Smart move.
This debate hasn't changed anything. Which works in Trump's favor.
Well drudge has Trump winning 92/8 ....
And there you have it
"...much better temperament than she has."
Stupid comment. She smiled through it. He's sinking. Looking like a boorish ass. He can't call her, "out of control," while she's smiling widely and he's losing control.
Bye-bye, Donald.
Meeeeea - exactly. She is easy to beat and he is flopping around.
R&B - the clown car candidates are not corrupt like money grubbing south Ameriican dictator she-Chavez. I'd take any of them.
He is an amateurish sneer-monger. Eyeballing her skeptically while she's positive, confident, and doesn't look condescending when she's listening to him.
If he was your hope to stop her, he's fucking this up. Big-time. Huge.
Not fun.
R&B - the clown car candidates are not corrupt like money grubbing south Ameriican dictator she-Chavez. I'd take any of them.
That's fine, but they lost. And so will he, it seems.
She has not been positive; she's been just as negative as him.
"But I think he is winning."
It doesn't look that way to me. Trump seems scatter-shot, she's put him on the defensive, and he's missed good chances to hit her on the Foundation. Questioning his charitable giving is rich, coming from a woman who donated her underwear to charity.
She's a slick liar, I'll give her that and she is much more composed than he is.
Wrong!
Clinton going for her "Daisy" moment.
"Hillary is in her element talking like a politician."
I can understand traditionally this is good for her. But isn't this an outsider election? Do we want another politician in the white house who is known solely as a politician? I mean, it's quite possible without the DNC rulemaking and shenanigans, Trump would be debated Bernie tonight.
Did HRC collapse from her weakness and brain injury (or whatever the conspiracy is)?
If not, was this the real HRC or was it the double?
He's sweating it while she's using her line about keeping someone easily baited by a tweet far away from the nuclear codes.
He's giving it away in his body language, as she's taking it on. Was this a set-up? How much did they pay him to do this?
Ask Trump about the triad... he studied that
Sorry I missed it. I was watching Cybergeddon.
Cyber flicks involve fast typing, assembler code and hexadecimal.
Trump dodges 'Do you support the current policy'. WTF is the current policy?
current policy: no pre-emptive use.
I thought her hit her hard on ISIS and not doing anything to really prevent them as a member of the administration. But the Hannity stupidity let the air out of that balloon.
She has not been positive; she's been just as negative as him.
She's not been necessarily condescending, with broad scattershots of insulting attack. Every time she's attacked him, it's been direct, focused and not emotionally flubbed up.
Granted, I just started watching this ten minutes ago, so I can't speak for how everything went leading up to this.
He pauses and ad libs. He seems much less prepared. But that's what you liked about him, in the first place.
We're obviously watching different debates if you missed the tweet line, the divergence about what is he hiding, and the other snide personal attacks.
We get the government we deserve...
What does this say about that?
Was this a set-up? How much did they pay him to do this?
9/26/16, 9:27 PM
No, I think he was just lousy because he didn't prepare enough and thought that what worked for him in the primaries would work for him here. He wants to win. But it's like his mind goes in 10 different directions at once, or fastens onto some trivial thing and beats it to death.
R&B: I don't like Trump. Try again.
Trump loses this one, not on substance, but on style.
He's right on the issues, but he meanders around so much that he loses me. I can't remember what the antecedent is to his statements half the time.
Please, Donald, learn some basic techniques of public speaking.
Hillary is doing the reading bullet points off a PowerPoint bit.
Trump is just all over the place. I'm dizzy by the end of his bits. He's trying to say way too much.
Rhythm and Balls is just spam. Clinton could chew a child's arm off on stage and he'd praise her for having the better teeth.
Actually I think Hillary is having a good night. Plenty of energy. She's animated and feisty. A lot of what she is saying is bullshit and vague and intellectually dishonest. I don't think that matters very much unfortunately.
Trump is not pressing his best line--where have you been for 30 years on all this--as effectively as he might.
Holt is doing a crap job. His dislike of and opposition to Trump is starting to seep through. But mostly he's failing to get them out of generalities.
Hillary has finally found her footing. No smiling or mocking, just bore the pants off everyone with tedious facts and thought out policies.
I came into this thinking that the race was going to be mostly unchanged by the debate but really I thnk Trump's performance was bad enough (and HRC greatly over performed the low expectations that had been set because of her health) that he might have blown his recent momentum.
Technical note: The camera on Hillary is slightly zoomed in to make her look the same size as Donald. Her head is definitely smaller. You can confirm this by comparing the size of words on the backdrop. Use the word "Right" for comparision. I think it's between 5% and 7%.
Sneering at his Republican adversaries was called for and effective. It will not work with her. At all. When she's talking, he needs to stop looking like a total asshole.
Hillary smiling is not a good look.
Really? Holt is going to let that applause go?
Rhythm and Balls is just spam. Clinton could chew a child's arm off on stage and he'd praise her for having the better teeth.
Thank you, Preacher Ken B, for the moralizing preachiness. But that's not how these things are won. Go sermonize the American public and electorate when they don't vote for that high horse you're on.
I think Trump lost the election tonight. Still, I'll never vote for Hillary, a lying, corrupt criminal who endangered the security of our country and triggered great damage about the world.
Stanina!
... Wait? Is that really a question that women deserve equal pay if they work as well as men?
I thought... I thought that was feminism?
Well, Hillary, he's right. Women don't deserve equal pay "unless" they do an equal job to men.
I support our democracy, but Russia is totally interfering with the election.
I would love the next debate to get an explanation of what our goals are in Syria. If it's to get into a proxy war with Putin, I would like to know that's why American boys are dying.
Tim: We have no concrete goals in Syria any more since the red line fell apart.
I support our democracy, but Russia is totally interfering with the election
By telling us true stuff we have no right to know? Maybe it's just that Assange is genuinely a peace activist and thus is reviled by Hillary? Naah!
... The creepy Hillary chant after the debate is... creepy.
Donald! Don't pat her back when you shake her hand! Just. Don't.
I hate to say it but he lost. Nevermind that Holt was in the tank for Clinton but Trump missed so many opportunities to smash her despite Holt. He should have gone straight to the point that she is a criminal and a traitor and unfit for any office.
OMG, I knew he would make a fool of himself, I never thought it would be so badly though, LOL.
We have no concrete goals in Syria any more since the red line fell apart.
I disagree. We have goals there, it's just that nobody will tell us what they are.
They're still both just as unlikeable as before.
Cough cough.
There it is.
Lester Crowely
Let the spin begin!
Hillary focused. Means 1 thing: a higher dose of speed then usual
"revolted by Hillary..." But "reviled by" works too, I guess.
WTF happened to Tom Brokaw? Did he lose his teeth?
"Cough cough.
There it is."
Did they chuck her in the Scooby van?
If you watched the R debates Trump's performance is not surprising, I doubt it hurts his chances very much. Clinton comes across as a typical politician, filled with empty political talk, it's not what a large slice of what the country wants right now.
Trump sure drank a lot of water, he seemed quite nervous.
Unknown has established herself as an honest broker here.
"I think Trump lost the election tonight. "
There are still 2 more debates. Maybe Trump will realize he's got to prep better - a lot better - for the next ones.
This could certainly kill the momentum that Trump has been building (I saw a poll today that showed him tied - in blue Minnesota.) However, I thought he was dead in the water in mid-August.
Still more than a month until the election. Who knows what will happen in that time?
"Trump sure drank a lot of water, he seemed quite nervous."
At least one time he followed up the drink with some serious tongue wiggling.
The debate was kind of a nothing.
I do think what we saw was Trump's warning: "I had something not nice to say, but I decided not to. But, man. Is Hillary being mean or what? Like. Super Mean."
That's the warning. I bet soon he'll give her another chance to keep it high, or he'll finally pull the long knives out and go personal not political.
Why does Trump not blow his nose, all that schnurfing was distracting.
Words were passed, eyebrows raised, lips sneered...but it is hard to think many minds were changed.
A defensive struggle without much clarity. Those of us who were hoping for a Trump knockout are disappointed.
There are two more debates. Maybe he will take the next one seriously and not count so heavily on his "boyish charm."
I was amazed at the make-up. Boy, whoever did that was a master. I mean they both looked great under the hot lights. Neither one of them melted.
I'm wondering if they've gone to LED lights now for show business?
I did think Donald was slouching too much. His neck appeared buried (scrunched) in his collar. Mrs. Clinton didn't slouch. She had her feet apart and would have done well in a military parade rest on the 4th of July. Donald would have been one of those soldiers who always flop over like a cow when they faint in the heat.
Surprisingly, Hillary used more masculine aggression than gentle man Trump, and Trump seemed out of sorts in dealing with it.
Trump is tawkin with guess who?
Enough with Lucy and the football. I want Hugh Hewitt as a debate moderator.
Instead - all we get are registered democrats who work for the Democrat Media Industrial Complex as debate moderators.
At one point Trump said the MSM is part of her campaign. That right there - Trumps everything.
Tim: I think that's what his warning was about. He came in to talk about messages, and I think he has been hesitating getting really nasty. That's why he went with Flowers, who had a consensual affair with Clinton, instead of one of the women who accused him of rape.
If she keeps going negative, he'll be more than happy to join in. I think, frankly, he prefers to fight that way any way.
DJT is on Fox talking w/ alibi Sean about the Iraq war disaster. It sounds like he was hanging w/ Code Pink back in the day.
I think this was the Trump you saw tonight.
"Gentleman" Trump? What planet does Traditionalguy live on? Hahahahaha!
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