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৫৬টি মন্তব্য:
A grain of salt, may be a ton of salt.
More interesting, they appear to have hauled all the corpses off to this cave for disposal. Worlds first mausoleum, well before Homo sapiens or neanderthal who were the earliest known ancestors with burial customs.
Check out the comments on the Times site. Times readers, being Times readers, have to politicize everything.
Mark,
Yeah, that's actually pretty fascinating- perhaps instinctive like (as I understand it) a cat burying her feces? They're saying he's likely a cousin, not an ancestor. I'm guessing with the tiny one-third sized brain, he was an early politician.
The more we learn the more confusing it gets. Hominid evolution seems to be riddled with weird offshoots and crossbreeds. For example, there's genetic evidence indicating that H. sapiens crossed with Neanderthals. Crosses between various species within the genus homo probably occurred frequently. I suspect that it'll be pretty much impossible to develop a neat fixed tree that has clear lineages and branches. There will always be ambiguity.
I suspect that it'll be pretty much impossible to develop a neat fixed tree that has clear lineages and branches. There will always be ambiguity.
You think that's bad? You should come to one of my family reunions...
Yeah, the guy in the video clip announces definitively, "a new species of human ancestor," and then later in the article an unaffiliated scientist says it's not even clear that it should be classified as homo.
“No question there’s at least one new species here,” he added, “but there may be debate over the Homo designation, though the species is quite different from anything else we have seen.”
Anthropologists have been pulling that crap for years. "Yay! A finger bone, it's obviously an entirely new direct human ancestor." I wish they'd get a grip, show some restraint, and act like professionals instead of marketers.
I agree with you, Nonapod. Lots of things are (surprisingly?) very complex. There's too much eagerness to reduce things to something absurdly simple and straightforward based on the patchiest of evidence. Let it ride and see where the story goes. Yes, there's less glory and self-aggrandizement, but deal with it.
For example, there's genetic evidence indicating that H. sapiens crossed with Neanderthals. Crosses between various species within the genus homo probably occurred frequently
There are at least three distinct subspecies of modern man. The first is almost pure Homo Sapiens with very little to no outbreeding. This population is mostly sub-Saharan African. The second shows significant inbreeding with the Neanderthal. this is mainly European. The third shows inbreeding with Neanderthal, and a third hominid. (Devonians?). This population is mainly Asian.
weighed almost 100 pounds,
Survival of the Fattest.
Ignorance is Bliss said...
I suspect that it'll be pretty much impossible to develop a neat fixed tree that has clear lineages and branches. There will always be ambiguity.
You think that's bad? You should come to one of my family reunions...
"If your family tree does not divide...you might be a redneck."
- Jeff Foxworthy
It's quite possible that this new species may not fit directly into the homo sapiens family tree but represent an offshoot. It's still interesting.
Hoax.
Yeah, 1500 bones of 15 individuals is a hoax.
This is a really big find, makes Lucy and the rest look fragmentary (as they are). This is a hell of a nice sample to work with.
Hadn't heard that Kate Moss had died.
This was the descendants from the barrell of monkeys. But those monkeys were not fit enough to arrange Stonhenge burial slabs.
Considering how sparse the fossil record has been for early hominids, this finding (assuming it's real) appears to be very big indeed.
I hadn't realised that we are supposed to say hominin these days, not hominid.
Can a human being fit through a 7.8 inch passageway in a cave? or did the researchers have to open that up somehow? I'd still be stuck.
@Nonapod:Hominid evolution seems to be riddled with weird offshoots and crossbreeds.
That's not just hominids, it's all evolution.
"Check out the comments on the Times site. Times readers, being Times readers, have to politicize everything."
Hahahahaha!! How could any cohort of people be so...single-minded?
Poisonous snake bites farmer on penis while urinating in field.
Dangling modifier.
Cleopatra was bitten on the ass.
rhhardin said...
Poisonous snake bites farmer on penis while urinating in field.
Dangling modifier.
A farmer on a penis was bitten by a urinating poisonous snake. Is that news?
In related news H. Namedi has been found registered to vote in 14 states with Democrat Secretaries of State...
In one of his early books Donald Johanson, the discoverer of Lucy, explained "lumpers" versus "splitters" in the study of hominid evolution. Splitters look for differences, however small, that would justify calling newly-discovered fossils part of a new species. The article (not from the Times) that I read quotes lumper Tim White (a former colleague of the Leakeys and Johanson) arguing that h. naledi is just a primitive form of h. erectus.
At any rate there's only one species of genus homo left on earth. When we go, then what?
Denisovans.
Breaking: Obama signs legislation, executive order, changing the name of the cave to Homo Naledi.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Marc Puckett:
"Hominin" and "hominid" aren't quite the same thing. A "hominin" is something in the genus "homo"; while a "hominid" is something in the family "hominidae", which includes gorillas, chimpanzees, and orangutans, too. That is, they're at slightly different levels of the taxonomy.
Good one, Lem!
He does do that a lot, doesn't he!
The skeptical me would think the following: Something new is discovered. What is it? Answer: That which will give the greatest glory to the discoverer.
Discovering new species is not cut and dried. It's alway a little fuzzy. A lot of new species aren't really new species.
It has taken me a moment to figure out what exactly is disquieting about this. It is that this discovery is the strongest evidence available that sentience springs up in the universe and then dies out. From dust to dust.
Thanks, George Grady; was curious and found this [http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/whats-in-a-name-hominid-versus-hominin-216054/?no-ist]: family (Hominidae), subfamily (Homininae), tribe (Hominini).
Brain 1/3 the size?
The origin of the progressives!!
Lol @ Tim White. Jealousy has him calling everyone else's discovery not a new species, yet his whole career is based on a very fragmentary discovery of a primitive version of prior known Australopithicine types.
Tim White, lumper when talking other people's research, splitter when talking his.
How can they be sure that this creature is part of the lineage of humans and not a distant cousin?
An average H. naledi was about five feet tall and weighed almost 100 pounds, . . .
If they keep digging, they're bound to find the first uneven parallel bars.
"...noting that a small skull with a brain one-third the size of modern human braincases was perched atop a very slender body."
I think they will discover that these guys were the first Law Professors.
@rhhardin Cleopatra was bitten on the ass.
I thought she was bitten by an asp.
Beorn,
That was the most famous asphole of all time.
For example, there's genetic evidence indicating that H. sapiens crossed with Neanderthals. Crosses between various species within the genus homo probably occurred frequently
There are at least three distinct subspecies of modern man. The first is almost pure Homo Sapiens with very little to no outbreeding. This population is mostly sub-Saharan African. The second shows significant inbreeding with the Neanderthal. this is mainly European. The third shows inbreeding with Neanderthal, and a third hominid. (Devonians?). This population is mainly Asian.
Denisovans, named for a cave in Siberia, where the fossils were found. Although the fossils were fragmentary (only a finger bone a toe bone, and two tooth) they got a good DNA sequence that showed they were different from modern humans and Neanderthals.
"when we go, then what?"
h. Roboticus
At any rate there's only one species of genus homo left on earth. When we go, then what?
Our successors are already amongst us.
Mark: "Lol @ Tim White. Jealousy has him calling everyone else's discovery not a new species, yet his whole career is based on a very fragmentary discovery of a primitive version of prior known Australopithicine types.
Tim White, lumper when talking other people's research, splitter when talking his."
How dare you question "Science".
Are they requesting reparations for some unheard of micro-aggressions?
Shhhhh!!!! All this talk of genetics, and evolution might lead people to think there's differences between the races. Only a fool would consider that sort of thing.
Pro-Abortion Attorney Tells Congress a Dismemberment Abortion is a “Humane Procedure”
A new species was discovered in America that preys on Homo sapiens. It prefers to torture and kill human babies that are uniquely vulnerable and defenseless. It uses psychological manipulation to disorient and deceive the mothers in order to betray the lives of their biological Posterity. It is a human-like creature in form that indulges, even revels, in extreme acts of sadism with its victims, before ultimately killing, harvesting, and trafficking the valuable parts.
Carnifex: Right you are! One can look at knuckle-dragging Neanderthal-American enslavement of the racially superior Homo Sapien Sapien Africans as a reality TV version of Planet of the Apes.
The continued racism and pathological need to feel superior from white apes like you and your chickenhawk pals is easily explained by the scientifically proved inferior level of your evolutionary caste.
I can't say I'm very happy with Professor Berger's methods. So he has "more than 60 scientists" on his team, but they're his scientists, aren't they? This secrecy, this fait accompli style of publication strikes me as counter to the best traditions of science.
So without the support of any outside authority he goes ahead and names the damned thing! Homo naledi, The genus is sound, the fossils are obviously on our side of the ape/human fork, but naledi? That's from a local Bantu dialect word meaning "star". It is the current fashion to honor indigenous people in naming new species, which is OK, I guess. It's no improvement over past practice, which was to choose names that either honored a person (Australopithecus boisei honors Charles Boise, one of Louis and Mary Leakey's benefactors) or told the reader something true about the creature (H. erectus is obvious - a fully-erect biped, therefore not an ape. A. afarensis tells us the creature lived in N.E. Africa, which improves on the original name, "southern ape.") If you're bound and determined to go all PC on us, it can be done in a meaningful way. Daeschler, Shubin, and Jenkins showed us how when they named their fish/tetrapod transitional fossil Tiktaalik roseae. "Tiktaalik" is an Inuit word for a freshwater relative of the Atlantic cod. T. roseae was about the size of a cod, and was found in freshwater sedimentary rock. Perfect! Homo naledi, however, imperfect! "Star Man?" What the hell is that? Is it because somebody stupidly referred to the remains as "underground astronauts?" That makes as much sense as referring to real astronauts as "above-ground spelunkers."
The finding of more and more "species" of Homo coupled with DNA evidence of interbreeding between Neanderthal and Denosovian is beginning to make one think that perhaps the genus Homo had a lot more variation in it than speciation. (Think dog breeds more than separate species). That of course would be anathema to political correctness since it would acknowledge that we can all be human but have vastly different characteristics based on our ancestral history.
But I am certain that the Humanities Departments will make certain that interpretation never sees the light of day.
...perhaps the genus Homo had a lot more variation in it than speciation.
That may well be the case. Given what little is known about the genetics of early humans it be the case that species boundaries may be more geographical or cultural (I'm not going to marry Thragette. I have a rule: Never wed anyone hairier than yourself.) than biological. It may be that Denosovians, the Neanderthalers, and the Heidelbergers are all paraphyletic groups that should be one species. The same may be true of Homo erectus and Homo ergaster.
Homo naledi perhaps can fill in a blank. Since the discovery of the Hobbit fossils (Homo floresiensis) there's been a lot of controversy about their identity and their ancestry. At first it was thought that they might be an isolated population of H. erectus, but their small brains didn't fit that hypothesis. Perhaps Star Man was the ancestor of the Hobbit, but that would suggest that some humans stayed comfortably stupid for millions of years - in other words, Stone Age Democrats.
"Hominin" and "hominid" aren't quite the same thing. A "hominin" is something in the genus "homo"; while a "hominid" is something in the family "hominidae", which includes gorillas, chimpanzees, and orangutans, too. That is, they're at slightly different levels of the taxonomy.
I guess, for some reason, they decided they couldn't just call them homos.
"Lighten up, Francis!"
Quaestor, if you read the article it's pretty clear. The cave the remains were found in is called the Rising Star cave. So the name is geographic (or based thereon), i.e. analogous to afarensis (i.e. the Afar triangle).
In fact, it's like Neanderthals, named after a specific valley.
I've read somewhere, some time, that it's supposed to be Neandertal now... but I don't care. And Pluto's still a planet. :)
@ kcom
Thanks. I shouldn't skim, but when it's the NYT I can't help it.
... it's supposed to be Neandertal
Safari spellcheck accepts both as correct. If Tom Cook says so it must be true. The gay man hath spoken.
Pluto is either a tiny planet, or a one ass-kickingly huge comet.
Drago, I am not questioning 'science' or even consensus, I am questioning one scientist who really likes the limelight.
If you cannot understand the difference, maybe science is a little past your abilities
Read the Smithsonian article, cringing at the thought of even walking into those caves.
While chaperoning my son's field trip to a coal mine, we went down the shaft in an elevator and walked to the end of one of the seams. Even though it was walkable, it still gave me the heebie-jeebies. It was like I could feel the mass of unyielding stone crushing me.
Otherwise, I don't have a problem with confined spaces.
Anyway, this is one helluva discovery. The biggest problem now is dating the remains. With most discoveries, they could carbon date the bands of rock above and below the find, giving us a range of years. But these were found on the surface of the cave floor, so they can't use that technique. It could 10,000 years, 50,000 years or 2 million years. That gives the scientists even more room to speculate where these bones will fit.
The biggest blind spot I see is that they operate on the assumption that man came from one branch, and out of one part of Africa (whether the Afar Triangle or South Africa or somewhere else). Operating on that assumption, they fight for the honor of finding the source.
Instead, I think the bones tell us that variations of humanity arose around the world at the same time, then competed for supremacy. Given the challenges involved in excavating to the right layers and discovering the preserved bones, it going to take a long time before a definitive answer *might* be found.
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