Althouse: The most interesting sentence in the NYT inquiry into whether MFA writing programs are worth it.

२० ऑगस्ट, २०१५

The most interesting sentence in the NYT inquiry into whether MFA writing programs are worth it.

"You might undertake an M.F.A. because it offers you some grant money and time, or because it gives you a student visa and an opportunity to escape."

३९ टिप्पण्या:

Unknown म्हणाले...: "No advice is useful, as you, an aspiring writer, already know." Does the author have the degree? How about alternatives:

"As you, an aspiring writer, already know, no advice is useful."
"No advice is useful, as you (an aspiring writer) already know."; २०/८/१५, ८:२८ AM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: It would irk the hell out of me if I committed to an MFA program only to find myself interacting with students who were there for grant money and visas.

These are the people who are reading and commenting on your work and whose work you'll have to read and comment on. This is the community of writers that you are putting your time and money into getting to work with.; २०/८/१५, ८:४३ AM
Sebastian म्हणाले...: Not just there for grant money and visas. Also to postpone repaying student loans.

"oppressive lack of diversity"

Right. Too many Prog humanities majors obsessed with diversity.; २०/८/१५, ८:५७ AM
tim maguire म्हणाले...: They're the only reasons I can think of.; २०/८/१५, ८:५९ AM
bbkingfish म्हणाले...: "Worth it?"

The Perfesser will take a half-pound of edu-ma-cation, sliced thin, and that nice loaf of marble rye.; २०/८/१५, ८:५९ AM
Jason म्हणाले...: Look up "modeling agency scams."

That's basically what MFA writing programs are.; २०/८/१५, ९:०१ AM
Jaq म्हणाले...: Are they held to a standard of literary excellence? How are decisions made about who gets admitted? Considering that the work of writers of color, L.G.B.T. writers, working-class and poor writers, expands and enriches American literature, M.F.A. programs must take special care to admit and nurture such students. Diversity — in terms of race, class, style, genre, educational background (Faulkner, for example, was an autodidact) — must be a mandate, not empty policy-speak.

An interesting exercise for a writing student might be to locate the logical flaws in the above excerpt.

For instance she could have written "Are they held to a standard of high enough literary quality as long as they meet the rest of these political criteria, which of course, still win out because this is all about politics."

Interesting that a writer doesn't know what excellence means. Imagine an NBA GM saying that he demands excellence, but their are other political criteria that must be met, and if some incredible talent comes along who doesn't meet those political criteria, well, we are just going to have to pass.; २०/८/१५, ९:१२ AM
Jaq म्हणाले...: I love too how she says that writers like Falkner, an autodidact and still a Nobel Prize winner in literature, must be admitted to a pricey writing school or life wouldn't be fair...

I actually think the first guy got it right. I think that some very elite schools monetize their prestige by offering these programs to kids whose parents can afford it. If forced to subsidize a large number of these student for political reasons, the reason for being for these programs will dry up.

Imagine if those "modeling agencies" had to take on a large percentage of "models" gratis, how long they would stay in business.; २०/८/१५, ९:१७ AM
buwaya म्हणाले...: Joseph Conrad is my favorite example.
Run away to sea, learn English, and learn to write well enough to be an Anglosphere best seller and win the Nobel.
MFA my a**.; २०/८/१५, ९:२५ AM
buwaya म्हणाले...: A friend of my daughters (creative writing program in HS) had the right idea - don't know if he went through with it - skip college and teach ESL or literacy to prisoners. He would get piles of material.; २०/८/१५, ९:२७ AM
Michael म्हणाले...: I was in such a program at the famous writers' school down there at the University of Iowa. We both discovered that I had less talent then we originally thought. Correct that: talent but no desire. Real talent, I believe, is accompanied by a crazy desire to produce. The real writers I got to know there had that. I was more likely to be down at Donneleys swilling beers and talking about what I was going to do than the guys who were in their rooms actually doing it. Even back in those olden times there was diversity in the program. I shared an office w/ a black guy, a guy with real talent who later killed himself. I was across the hall from Gail Godwin. There are a dozen or so famous and not-so-famous people I knew there and some who failed utterly.

I have no idea how students are admitted into programs today, but in those times it was based on writing they submitted with their applications. I don't think the committee making the decisions gave one shit about the gender or race of the applicant.

It was, by the way, accepted that writers in residence got to screw the female students. The women in that program were talented in many ways. They were strong individuals and I doubt if any of them are sympathetic to the snowflakes in today's womens studies.; २०/८/१५, ९:५६ AM
Jaq म्हणाले...: The Rewrite is a pretty funny look at a screen writing program, I thought anyway, filmed in Camille Paglia's hometown of Binghamton. Hugh Grant finds out that screwing the students is no longer a droit de seigneur and I found out that Binghampton is some kind of carousel capital. I know I stopped by there one time and there was a merry go round near where we got coffee, and we rode it, but I had no idea it was a thing.; २०/८/१५, १०:०२ AM
wildswan म्हणाले...: What about writing is an "ethical political act" as a typical-of-the-bad-times-we-live-in statement. I mean: what is the difference between a political speech and a piece of fine writing? - if one begins by saying that writing is an "ethical political act." Isn't Hillary a fine liar? and a lefty? Is she then one of our great writers? like Mark Twain?

I think she is one of the great writers of the hard left - look at the phrases she has introduced: "great right-wing conspiracy", "I'm shocked, shocked" "At this point what difference does it make?" and she is joint author of "It depends on what you mean by 'is' ". And her statements are all fiction and no difference between art and life so that she really should be nominated for the Nobel prize in literature.; २०/८/१५, १०:२६ AM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: "...talent but no desire. Real talent, I believe, is accompanied by a crazy desire to produce."

I don't think this is true. There are artists of many kinds who are fabulously and naturally talented whose desire to work and produce is insufficient. I had a drawing teacher who said that of the students who she knew when she was in art school, none of the most natural talents, ten years later, were working in the arts. Those she knew who were working in the arts had been those students whose talent had seemed less than stellar, to varying degrees, but who had the desire, ambition, and work habits to grind away in the face of less than immediate success.

"It was, by the way, accepted that writers in residence got to screw the female students."

Even the female writers?

By the way, "got to" suggests the female students were obliged to serve as concubines to the writers in residence. Would it not be more accurate to say that the female students who were amenable to sleeping with the writers in residence did so, and there was no particular hub bub about it?

Or did I take the correct inference? Were the female students expected to sleep with the writers in residence, as an obligation of sorts?; २०/८/१५, १०:३५ AM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: "...what is the difference between a political speech and a piece of fine writing?'

For one, very little political speech writing can ever be confused with fine writing.; २०/८/१५, १०:३७ AM
Michael म्हणाले...: Robert Cook

I suppose I am trying to distinguish between talent and Talent with a capital T. I fell into the category described by your drawing teacher, someone with talent but without desire. The "crazy desire to produce" corresponds with your teacher's description of those who had the combination of "desire, ambition and work habits." This group I would put in the capital T column. I don't think we disagree at all.

Yes, even the female writers in residence boffed the male students.

"Got to" does not imply obligation on the part of the females but rather a more open-minded time in the last century when scolds and rules did not abound or were honored only in the breach.

The females screwed the famous writers to say they had. Plus fun.; २०/८/१५, १०:४३ AM
Known Unknown म्हणाले...: It's like film school. Mostly useless.; २०/८/१५, १०:४६ AM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: Michael,

I think there is a distinction be made here, but it's between "talent" and "drive," not "talent" and "talent with a capital T."

Drive is the trait necessary to take writers to success, (along with luck), irrespective of degrees of talent. I'm sure there are people not writing, or writing but not publishing, who are as talented as anyone who has ever been celebrated as a writer.; २०/८/१५, १०:५२ AM
David म्हणाले...: Getting laid is also a considerable motivation, though the writers workshops are quicker and cheaper.; २०/८/१५, १०:५८ AM
Sydney म्हणाले...: Considering that the work of writers of color, L.G.B.T. writers, working-class and poor writers, expands and enriches American literature, M.F.A. programs must take special care to admit and nurture such students.

I once lived in a town whose public library used those criteria to select new books. It was awful.; २०/८/१५, ११:०८ AM
Michael म्हणाले...: Robert Cook

"I'm sure there are people not writing, or writing but not publishing, who are as talented as anyone who has ever been celebrated as a writer."

There are doubtless people of great ability and talent who are writing for themselves and not trying to publish. I am not so certain about those who are not writing at all. This view of possibilities is pretty but it falls into the category of thinking that we are all really equal at everything down deep. Which is untrue.; २०/८/१५, ११:४३ AM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: Michael, no, considering the many unknown talented and even brilliantly gifted people in the world is not in the least to suggest we are all really equal at everything down deep.

It is really only to acknowledge that the race does not always go to the swift.; २०/८/१५, १२:३७ PM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: The more complete axiom, pertinent here, is: "The race is not given to the swift nor the strong but he who endures until the end."; २०/८/१५, १२:४१ PM
Zach म्हणाले...: There's a big difference between Faulknor, Conrad, Hemingway, etc, and the people who are applying to these programs.

In those writers' time, you could make a comfortable middle class living almost out of the gate if you had reasonable talent. Newspapers and magazines were thriving and paid good rates.

Now people feel like they need a credential because they're trying to serve a decaying market. They're hoping to make their living by side deals like teaching creative writing, because creative writing doesn't pay for itself.

I don't like the MFA style. But I see why people get MFAs.; २०/८/१५, १२:४२ PM
Michael म्हणाले...: Robert Cook

You can be the first to congratulate me on being more gifted than JS Bach. I cannot read a note of music and I have a bit of a tin ear but then I have not been given ample opportunity to tap my musical genius. It resides but it is keyless. I am listening to Gould's slower Goldberg in hopes there is a breakthrough.

Although kidding aside I agree that persistence is one of the great virtues and has added much to my financial success.; २०/८/१५, १२:५२ PM
Zach म्हणाले...: That said, the Mathis essay was pretty unbearable. The step that follows turning art into a credential is obsessing over who gets the credential, and who's on the credential committee, and do the recipients of the credential fit into the right categories...

Besides, M.F.A.s aren’t going anywhere. Thus, the real questions have to do with the administration of these programs. Are they held to a standard of literary excellence? How are decisions made about who gets admitted? Considering that the work of writers of color, L.G.B.T. writers, working-class and poor writers, expands and enriches American literature, M.F.A. programs must take special care to admit and nurture such students. Diversity — in terms of race, class, style, genre, educational background (Faulkner, for example, was an autodidact) — must be a mandate, not empty policy-speak.

This is the voice of someone who has accepted it's all a scam, and just wants to get hers.; २०/८/१५, १२:५२ PM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: ""...talent but no desire. Real talent, I believe, is accompanied by a crazy desire to produce."

So, Harper Lee? Untalented.

And what about all the writers who kill themselves, like David Foster Wallace? That's the height of unproductiveness.

I think this "crazy desire" theory is an excuse. Get back to work!; २०/८/१५, १:४० PM
Jaq म्हणाले...: I would like somebody to explain to me how Beowulf, The Odyssey, Le Morte d'Arthur, Huckleberry Finn,War and Peace, and The Unbearable Lightness of Being, and on and on and on were not political and were not first rate art.

Of course art is political, it almost could be the definition of what raises a craft to the level of art. Are you making doilies to protect the arms of your chair? Craft, are you making doilies at a time when politics forbids doily making? Art.

What she wants is control over the political message to be created by the artist class. It sounds vaguely familiar....

The art of propaganda consists precisely in being able to awaken the imagination of the public through an appeal to their feelings, in finding the appropriate psychological form that will arrest the attention and appeal to the hearts of the national masses. The broad masses of the people are not made up of diplomats or professors of public jurisprudence nor simply of persons who are able to form reasoned judgment in given cases, but a vacillating crowd of human children who are constantly wavering between one idea and another. A. Hitler - Mein Kampf; २०/८/१५, २:०५ PM
Michael म्हणाले...: Actually DFW's suicide was, as in the case of Elvis, a good career move. He is one of the most over-rated authors of our time. Harper Lee is a mediocre writer and a small t talent if she was even a writer at all.

Productiveness does not necessarily equate to publication. Writers write. They have an ambition to write that supplements their talents or perhaps vice versa.; २०/८/१५, २:२५ PM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: And publication does not equate to talent. There are plenty of bad books by bad writers published every year. Many of them are very popular, while books by talented writers are not always popular.; २०/८/१५, २:५३ PM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: "The art of propaganda consists precisely in being able to awaken the imagination of the public through an appeal to their feelings, in finding the appropriate psychological form that will arrest the attention and appeal to the hearts of the national masses. The broad masses of the people are not made up of diplomats or professors of public jurisprudence nor simply of persons who are able to form reasoned judgment in given cases, but a vacillating crowd of human children who are constantly wavering between one idea and another.

A. Hitler - Mein Kampf"

This is actually quite astute.; २०/८/१५, २:५४ PM
Michael म्हणाले...: Robert Cook

Agree. I know a couple of good writers who have self published and a number of bad writers who are successful.

In any event, notwithstanding my remarks about DFW and Harper Lee, my hat is off to all writers. It is a hard, grueling, job and one I was not up to.; २०/८/१५, ३:४७ PM
Michael म्हणाले...: Robert Cook

The Hitler quote is apt. And remember that much of his propaganda was theatrical and architectural. Obama got it. Trump may have it. Hillary does not.; २०/८/१५, ३:४९ PM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: I can easily see an American Hitler, with all the exaggerated pomp and spectacle, becoming wildly, frighteningly popular.; २०/८/१५, ४:४५ PM
Sydney म्हणाले...: My son gave me a short book on how to write a story that he had to read for a creative writing course in college. The whole thing was basically about avoiding the temptation to get up from the desk and go do something else.; २०/८/१५, ५:१९ PM
Jaq म्हणाले...: I can easily see an American Hitler, with all the exaggerated pomp and spectacle, becoming wildly, frighteningly popular.

Me too. Imagine a collapse in the dollar as governments try to inflate their way out of unsustainable debt, a collapse in the economy, massive unemployment, and a guy comes along when everybody is starving for work, dignity, food, and promises to improve everything if we just give him enough power. The movies industry is all behind him, the newspapers.

Wreck what is working in the hopes of building something perfect, and you never know what you are going to get.; २०/८/१५, ७:०५ PM
Michael म्हणाले...: Remember too the Roman columns, the architectural flourish that Obama employed.; २०/८/१५, ७:१८ PM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: "Imagine a collapse in the dollar as governments try to inflate their way out of unsustainable debt, a collapse in the economy, massive unemployment, and a guy comes along when everybody is starving for work, dignity, food, and promises to improve everything if we just give him enough power. The movies industry is all behind him, the newspapers.

"Wreck what is working in the hopes of building something perfect, and you never know what you are going to get."

We're much closer to this than anyone dares admit. Our system is barely working and improvement does not seem soon likely.; २०/८/१५, ७:४७ PM
Bill Peschel म्हणाले...: "I think this "crazy desire" theory is an excuse. Get back to work!"

Easy for you to say, Ann.

I've figured out that there are the Type As who are the yappy dogs of life. Bundles of energy that they have to burn off, and they can't imagine why the rest of us aren't like them and thrilled to tell us so.

I write. I have problems writing. I'm easily distracted. I'm beset with feelings of worthlessness and depression. I know that. Yet I've still published since 2000 eight books, including one by Penguin. And yet writing, to me, is like trying to drive while pressing the accelerator and the brake at the same time.

So when I hear writing teachers, book marketers and the generally ignorant say "get to work," I smile and imagine some dreadful fate for them, like stewing slowly in a cannibal's pot. And then I figure out what to do next.; २१/८/१५, ४:१६ PM