"It’s unbelievable to me that liberals, that President Obama, of course he sends his children to private school, as did Al Gore, and Bill Clinton and every other celebrated liberal... They just don’t want to let those idiot inner city kids that they purport to be so supportive of… they don’t want to give them the same opportunity their own kids have. It’s disgraceful."
How does "idiot" pop out? How does that happen?
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২২২টি মন্তব্য:
222 এর 1 – থেকে 200 আরও নতুন» সবচেয়ে নতুন»Hillary Clinton just said this: I'm not asking ppl to vote for me bc I'm a woman. Vote "on the merits. And I think one of the merits is, I am a woman."
h/t Legal Insurrection
Stuff happens.
It's hard to tell from the written words, but he could be projecting what how he thinks the liberal elite views the inner city kids. But, it will now be forever seen as how Johnson thinks, regardless of the actual intent.
Idiot inner city kids is a natural reaction.
The theory is no father.
Black social dysfunction.
Igv, that's rich. Johnson says something foolish and you blame liberals.
The easiest explanation here is that Johnson is saying something he believes in.
Please don't make excuses for politicians.
He is portraying the attitude of Obama, Gore and Clinton towards inner city kids, not exposing his own views toward them.
Does the liberal filter distort the ability to comprehend or is everyone just pretending?
Jimmy Carter sent Amy to public school.
How does "idiot" pop out?
Cuz the "inner city" does have more than its fair share of stupid people, but nobody is supposed to notice it, much less mention it, but someone did, probably accidentally...?
"Effects of urban flight on IQ distribution"
"Baltimore is typical of many Midwestern and Northern cities, whose demographics were forever changed by the great black migration of the twentieth century. Not unexpectedly we found a cognitive discontinuity at the city line. Surprising, however, was its magnitude. Whereas suburban mean IQs (86 for blacks, 99 for whites) conform more or less to national norms, city IQs are dreadfully low. With a mean IQ of 76, inner-city blacks fall about 0.6 SD below the African American average nationally. More than a third have death-penalty immunity on grounds of mental retardation. The inner-city white mean of 86 is nearly a full standard deviation below the national white average."
Johnson was talking as if he were the Liberals he had just mentioned. It was a John Edwards channeling situation.
I think he meant that's what the liberals call them. Actually they probably refer to them in a more derogatory fashion. I mean, I would.
"MadisonMan said...
Igv, that's rich. Johnson says something foolish and you blame liberals.
The easiest explanation here is that Johnson is saying something he believes in.
Please don't make excuses for politicians."
He didn't blame anyone, he provided an explanation.
It's scary that you teach.
As Rick Perry so eloquently stated, 'oops'
I wondered why Feingold had such a big smile earlier this week.
From the Washington Post article:
“Obviously I am a huge supporter of school choice, it infuriates me that these young inner city kids are trapped in poverty,” he told us. “I was being, that quote is, I’m being very sarcastic in that’s how liberals view these underprivileged kids. That is not my viewpoint in any way.”
Advantage:
lgv and Birkel
Disadvantage:
MadisonMan
"How does "idiot" pop out? How does that happen?"
Accidental truth-telling.
Curious George, always making apologies for racists.
Reminds me of that joke Walkers chief of staff emailed around, expressing this exact same sentiment as Johnson did.
When caught as a racist or homophobe, blame the other side. But, but, but ... Hillary!
Whereas suburban mean IQs (86 for blacks, 99 for whites) conform more or less to national norms, city IQs are dreadfully low. With a mean IQ of 76,
They don't have an IQ problem. They have a social problem.
Character trumps IQ.
Black inner city kids are not taught to admire the right thing.
Mokita, noun (Kilivila language, Trobriand Islands): something we all know is true but that we agree not to talk about
My nephew is married to an Art teacher. God she is dedicated, and teaches in high school. More than just a wonderful artist, she has the gift of knowing how to teach, create real lessons. She even taught me to play with pastels.
But she beats herself up, because she can't seem to connect with most of the inner city kids. There's always a gem in the pile of rocks, but generally speaking they are just a pile of rocks.
She writes it off with "Not every kid has a right side of the brain. Only, in the case of the kids from downtown, very few have a left side either."
The simplest explanation is the Johnson was referring not to their collective IQs, but to their behavior. As for the technical term, those who have an IQ between 0 and 25 are idiots; IQs between 26 and 50 are considered imbeciles; and those who have an IQ between 51 and 70 are considered morons. I would be surprised if Johnson used this calculus.
The easiest explanation here is that Johnson is saying something he believes in.
I believe that most inner city kids are idiots. They are ignoring and throwing away the opportunity for a free education, and a chance to improve their lives, something people literally kill themselves trying to get. Note most African immigrants feel exactly the way I do.
Saracasm doesn't work on radio, or in print. Perhaps Johnson will learn this. If you have to scurry back to the press and "clarify" things after talking to your staff, well....
Re: Baltimore: My understanding is that some of the IQ deficiencies in inner cities are due to lead paint. My vague recollection from the early 1990s is that studies in Providence RI purported to show this.
always making apologies for racists
It's hard to figure out what a racist is these days.
The IQ measurers are probably right, which is the dictionary definition of racist - group differences. But that's just genetics of populations developing without contact.
But if you in addition don't think IQ matters much, then are you no longer a racist?
There's an inner city black problem - coded as behaving like idiots - but it's related to progressivism, not IQ.
On the subject of belief: This came across my desk, so to speak, today.
Althouse said ...
How does "idiot" pop out? How does that happen?
What is the mystery here? That is how he normally thinks and speaks in private.
How does "idiot" pop out? How does that happen?,
It's best not to call others "idiot" or "stupid". It boomerangs all too often.
"Mark said...
Curious George, always making apologies for racists."
Maybe you could point out some examples of that? By the way, where were you in the Jon Stwert thread yesterday? Not too late for you to stand up for the black man and denounce that racist. Right? Right?
"Reminds me of that joke Walkers chief of staff emailed around, expressing this exact same sentiment as Johnson did."
That's because you are a moron. What Johnson said was in no way a joke. And the email in question did not express the same sentiment as Johnson.
Fail.
"AReasonableMan said...
What is the mystery here? That is how he normally thinks and speaks in private."
You are privy to Johnson's private musings? Really?
By the way, where were you yesterday in the Jon Stewart post? Not too late to denounce that racist. Right?
Should have said: "what they think are idiot inner city kids."
Not wise to make yourself a target for Prog race-baiting. They don't need much to work with.
In an honest reading, Johnson is not giving his opinion of the inner city kids. He is criticizing wealthy liberals who spurn kids who actually deserve a chance. His sentence wouldn't make sense if he spurned them himself.
(The word idiot is a bad choice regardless; there are other words that would make his point better. Which I think was Althouse's point as well. It's hard to talk and always say exactly the right thing.)
Curious, some days I actually have a life, unlike you. If you want to employ me to reply to every discussion here, you are more than willing to.
Nice attempt at yelling `squirrel' to distract.
Yes, what Johnson said was in no way a joke. It's what he truly believes.
And the email in question, from Walker's deputy chief of staff:
Then-deputy chief of staff Kelly Rindfleisch received an e-mail in April 2010 with a photograph of four dogs and a story relayed in jest about trying to sign them up for welfare. "At first the lady said, 'Dogs are not eligible to draw welfare'. So I expla ned [sic] to her that my Dogs are mixed in color, unemployed, lazy, can't speak English and have no frigging clue who the r Daddys are. They expect me to feed them, provide them with housing and medical care, and feel guilty," the e-mail said, adding: "My Dogs get their first checks Friday."
Rindfleisch responded: "That is hilarious. And so true."
Please go ahead and split racist hairs, George. Every time another revelation about racist Wisconsin republicans comes out, all you do is defend and distract - because there is no excuse for what he said.
I think the word "idiot" might reflect the alleged attitude of President Obama, and of Bill clinton and Al Gore.
Gahrie said... 7/24/15, 8:20 AM
I believe that most inner city kids are idiots. They are ignoring and throwing away the opportunity for a free education,
I don't think there is such an opportunity in the schools they attend. Otherwise charter schools would not make any difference.
It should be said also that IQ is, to a large extent, a function of general literacy and education. This is certainly true when you have vast differences.
You are privy to Johnson's private musings? Really?
They all know everybody's private thoughts. It comes with being a liberal. Some might say such beliefs border on delusions of grandeur, but liberalism confers such grandeur on the liberal that it can be no delusion.
He was obviously channeling them in a derogatory way, Ann, not expressing his personal opinion.
I interpreted it as him saying it as though he were imagining what the people avoiding the kids were thinking.
If Ron Johnson believed that (all) of these inner city kids were "idiots", he wouldn't beleive they could be educated, and he's saying they can be.
But maybe Obama, Clinton et al consider them idiots
Which, apparently, is the right interpretation, if we decide to be charitable. Which I usually am, so it was a moment where body language or tone might have helped make clear the intent that it just written down lost.
Now Mark's doing it too? Fix on a silly understanding of Johnson's words, and double down on it. Because he's a conservative so you know already.
People's brains get so twisted by their ideology.
The obvious interpretation is that he was expressing what he believed to be their motives.
Of course he gave them an opportunity to call him a racist for calling liberal elites out on racist behavior.
The difference between conservatives and liberals is that conservatives recommend for those members of the economic underclasses the same ideas that they recommend to their own children, and liberal think that suggesting that a black child could benefit from the same morality that they would teach their own child is racist.
"Please don't make excuses for politicians."
Fair enough. Where do you stand on the "John Doe" investigation. Prison for all hands ?
Curious George said...
By the way, where were you yesterday in the Jon Stewart post? Not too late to denounce that racist.
Stewart is probably a bit racist as well. Although in that case the main dynamic was an employee calling out a powerful boss in public, which went in a predictable fashion.
As to my thought on the subject (as if it matters). If the bell curve is correct, most children fall within a range where an IQ of 100 is the average. Right? So, black or white, most children should be able to at the least perform, in school, at a passing rate. Right?
But according to a study documented in the NYT: "The average high school graduation rate in the nation’s 50 largest cities was 53 percent, compared with 71 percent in the suburbs."
"In Cleveland, for instance, where the gap was largest, only 38 percent of high school freshmen graduated within four years, compared with 80 percent in the Cleveland suburbs, the report said. In Baltimore, which has the nation’s second-largest gap, 41 percent of students graduate from city schools, compared with 81 percent in the suburbs."
In my opinion, 71 percent is terrible, but it is much better (18%) than inner city schools. Why?
One clue to the question: The students were not born idiots. So what is the answer? I will leave that to you to decide for yourselves.
Oh just one more thought that is neither here or there: Have you ever noticed that most of the worst cities for racial imbalance are in the north? It must be that damn confederate flag. Right?
Fair enough. Where do you stand on the "John Doe" investigation. Prison for all hands ?
Go read my comments. In here for example.
The article writer assumed Johnson was talking about liberal attitudes:
"We asked him if he really believes liberals view inner city children as “idiots.”
"if we decide to be charitable"
He should have realized that there are a lot of people who are not going to be charitable. Stupid move on his part.
I believe that most inner city kids are idiots. They are ignoring and throwing away the opportunity for a free education,
I don't think there is such an opportunity in the schools they attend. Otherwise charter schools would not make any difference.
A dirty little secret in the education world is that the quality of teachers doesn't really matter except for the extremes. There are some teachers so bad, they do actual harm to those students. Unfortunately these do usually congregate in poor schools. There are some teachers that are so good that they can work miracles. most teachers are in the middle. What matters more than teacher quality is student motivation. A motivated student can learn with all but the most crappy of teachers. An unmotivated student will learn very little with a brilliant teacher.
The reasons why charter schools are so popular, and work, is that they allow the motivated students to escape the intentional non-learners. This means they no longer get beaten up for acting White because they are successful in school.
"Curious, some days I actually have a life, unlike you. If you want to employ me to reply to every discussion here, you are more than willing to. "
First you say I always do something, which of course you provide no examples (because there are none), and now you say I have no life, and you don't even know me. This is the mind of a liberal. Opinion as fact, and go from there.
"Nice attempt at yelling `squirrel' to distract.
Yes, what Johnson said was in no way a joke. It's what he truly believes." Here it is again, you know what "Johnson truly believes"? Really? Could you provide any example of Johnson thinking black you are idiots? And You compared Johnson's remark to a joke Corky.
"And the email in question, from Walker's deputy chief of staff:
Then-deputy chief of staff Kelly Rindfleisch received an e-mail in April 2010 with a photograph of four dogs and a story relayed in jest about trying to sign them up for welfare. "At first the lady said, 'Dogs are not eligible to draw welfare'. So I expla ned [sic] to her that my Dogs are mixed in color, unemployed, lazy, can't speak English and have no frigging clue who the r Daddys are. They expect me to feed them, provide them with housing and medical care, and feel guilty," the e-mail said, adding: "My Dogs get their first checks Friday."
Rindfleisch responded: "That is hilarious. And so true."
But you said SHE emailed it around. She did not. She responded.
You said she was Walker's COS. She is not.
And the email again did not express what Johnson did.
So why did you bring it up?
"Please go ahead and split racist hairs, George. Every time another revelation about racist Wisconsin republicans comes out, all you do is defend and distract - because there is no excuse for what he said."
Again examples. For someone who says hey have a life you sure seem to spend a lot of it tracking what I do and say.
Or maybe you are just a liberal lying POS>
Writing as a person whose sons went to "minority majority" schools, no, they aren't idiots in the classic sense of born stupid. But they do react violently to any setback, real or merely perceived. And that's an idiotic behavior.
Madison man. OK asked and answered.
My position is that Johnson is a businessman who was elected, not a professional politician and he shows it.
California had an outstanding candidate for governor in Meg Whitman who was torpedoed by the Democrats who found an illegal who had been working for her using false papers. When they learned she was illegal, they fired her and Gloria Allred took over.
California is sliding down the slippery slope. Wisconsin seems to have avoided that.
Ruling Class vs Country Class.
"AReasonableMan said...
Stewart is probably a bit racist as well. Although in that case the main dynamic was an employee calling out a powerful boss in public, which went in a predictable fashion."
So you don't have the same insight into what Steward says in private like you do Senator Johnson.
To me the obvious meaning of this was that Senator Johnson was speaking in the projected voice of the people he was criticizing. Even reading a transcript makes that much clear. I expect an audio/video recording just makes the point all the stronger, where the Senator's voice might have gone up a half an octave, as he metaphorically spoke in a different voice.
Of course, Senator Johnson will get no understanding or any degree of nuanced treatment from Democrats or from the press. (To the extent that the two groups are different.) And that is of course because he is a Republican. I was going to say "white male Republican," but that no longer matters. Black and female Republicans get treated at least as badly if not worse, in the mainstream media.
It's a gaff because Johnson accidentally spoke the truth. First, inner city kids are mostly poor and the poor are of below average intelligence and second, well to do Liberals think the poor are idiots who need to be cared for like children.
"MadisonMan said...
Saracasm doesn't work on radio, or in print. Perhaps Johnson will learn this. If you have to scurry back to the press and "clarify" things after talking to your staff, well...."
It works fine on radio, and if you listened to the interview, and heard the statement in context, he was clearly not saying that inner city kids were idiots.
EDH said...
The article writer assumed Johnson was talking about liberal attitudes:
"We asked him if he really believes liberals view inner city children as “idiots.”
Dammit EDH we are trying to have a theoretical discussion about what Johnson might have been thinking not what really transpired. Not how the people in the room understood him. Not what he says he meant. Dammit we are discussing what Mark and ARM think he meant!
I quoted the article and was ignored. The linked article clarifies Johnson's meaning. But that would detract from the Left-Right fun.
Althouse pwns again.
Altparse alert.
Reads to me clearly as RJ pointing out elite libs' view of their loyal subjects. Options for me, not for thee.
Beavis: "He said idiot..heh,heh..heh,heh"
You too, Birkel, dammit! Facts are for crazy right wing loons. Not for use in discussing WI politics!
"Mike said...
Dammit we are discussing what Mark and ARM THINK he meant!"
Excuse me sir. But they KNOW what he meant. And what he says in private.
I think Johnson was trying to disparagingly describe what he believed the thought process was of those who send their kids to private school. I don't think it slipped out.
If he had said "minority" inner-city kids, he would have been accusing those he was criticizing of racism. Instead, he is accusing them of being classist or elitist.
It's immediately obvious that he's riffing on the hypocrisy of liberal elitists who send their children to private schools. Surprising that Althouse couldn't divine that, unsurprising that liberals try to twist it into something else. Gotta keep exploiting the misery of Black folks!
Curious George:
They know what Senator Johnson is thinking. The call.is coming from inside the house!!
Eleventy!!
The Cracker Emcee:
I firmly believe Althouse knew exactly what Johnson meant. This is classic Althouse trolling.
Yeah, he's saying what the people who won't send their kids to the public schools think. Obviously not saying what the people who do send their kids to the schools think, because they are sending their kids to those schools.
Why is it so hard to believe that actual inner city IQs are that much lower thanthemeans? Firstly, we have a number of people living in a dysfunctional environment, where the girls start having kids out of wedlock at a young age, and the boys end up in gangs, then prison, on drugs, or dead, with their seeming ambition to knock up as many of those girls as possible. Each generation is probably a little worse than the previous one. The progressive state isn't helping here, subsidizing these young women to have as many dysfunctional kids as they can. The second part may be that the smarter and less dysfunctional underclasses seem to have fled the inner cities. Which, BTW, is probably part of why progressives push urban living so hard, and why Obama's HUD has new guidelines out that push urban density on an unwilling public.
Though I originally read the statement as applying to all those good progressives who pretend to represent the underclasses, but force them, in order to get unionized teacher support, to remain in nonfunctional schools, while sending their own kids to good, if not great, schools. And that seems to have been how the Senator meant it.
On a somewhat related note:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/24/charles-haley-to-49ers-rookies-act-like-the-white-guys/
I've done a little bit more research on south vs north graduation rates. The good news is southern and northern rates are more equal than I first thought (call it regionalism on my part). The bad news is, they all suck.
Atlanta came in third in the study: "At 44%, the City of Atlanta also boasts one of the nation's lowest graduation rates, landing it in the same pool of Cities in Crisis. The Georgia Department of Juvenile Justice reports that for Atlanta's Fulton County, African-American youth made up over 93% of total intake for unique youth served for criminal offenses; over 92% of admissions for criminal offenses; over 92% of releases for criminal offenses committed; over 96% of the average daily population for criminal offenses; and over 95% of child care days served for criminal defenses."
The racial makeup of the county was 48.1% White, 44.6% Black or African American, 0.2% Native American, 5.6% Asian, <0.1% Pacific Islander, 2.6% from other races, and 1.5% from two or more races. 7.9% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race.
Oh yea, by the way: The other two cities in the top five were Detroit and Chicago.
As a comparison, my hometown, Warner Robins, Ga (90 miles south of Atlanta) had a 76% graduation rate. My county: 63.3% White, 28.6% Black or African American (low for Georgia), 0.3% Native American, 2.4% Asian, 0.1% Pacific Islander, 2.4% from other races, and 2.8% from two or more races. 6.1% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race.
This doesn't change my main argument that children weren't born idiots just because the were born in the inner city, but it does dampen my southern verse northern argument some what, but still one (southern) out of five (20%) still preserves my something, something. Right?
MadisonMan: Saracasm doesn't work on radio, or in print. Perhaps Johnson will learn this. If you have to scurry back to the press and "clarify" things after talking to your staff, well....
Sarcasm works just fine on radio and in print. Sarcasm doesn't work with the thick and the literal-minded. A politician ought to know that, just as he ought to know that he has enemies who are neither thick nor literal-minded, who can and will easily manipulate the thick and literal-minded to his disadvantage.
Full quote in his head
""It’s unbelievable to me that liberals, that President Obama, of course he sends his children to private school, as did Al Gore, and Bill Clinton and every other celebrated liberal... They just don’t want to let those 'idiot' inner city kids, as they would think, but never say out loud, that they purport to be so supportive of… they don’t want to give them the same opportunity their own kids have. It’s disgraceful.""
It seems obvious that his meaning was ironic and that he was attributing the sentiment to liberal hypocrites.
What's more, I think lots of his detractors know that is at least likely to be the case. They just don't care. They want their scalp and damn the truth.
MadisonMan: On the subject of belief: This came across my desk, so to speak, today.
Unintentionally hilarious article. Correct in its premise (some things are simply not a matter of opinion), the author believes, among other questionable assertions, that it is an inarguable "fact" that disparate outcomes in employment and achievement "prove" the presence (against blacks) and absence (against whites) of racial discrimination.
He wants the idiot inner city kids to get off his lawn.
It should be said also that IQ is, to a large extent, a function of general literacy and education. This is certainly true when you have vast differences.
Since group genetics is a science, I'd imagine that that's taken into account. I mean, it's a whole field, not one populated with racists.
They're not studying literacy but genetics.
IQ however is way overrated. Social conventions are vastly more important.
The charitable explanation of Johnson's remarks is plausible, but so is the racist interpretation. Guess which one will be given the most traction. Republicans are not given the benefit of the doubt in such circumstances.
Has Obama, Clinton or Gore explained why they didn't send their kids to public schools? Thank God Johnson used the word "idiot", otherwise people might have actually wanted an answer to his question.
Johnson won't need a pair of pants today with all you guys covering his ass.
Do you think the teacher Coupe described calls her students idiots, ironically or otherwise? She cares about her students. Johnson, not so much.
You can't talk like this when you're a Republican.
It's clear he means this is what Democrats think of them by the way they treat him.
But then, we can all pretend he couldn't have possibly meant that, can't we? Because he's an evil Republican.
Johnson as right. It doesn't matter if he was attempting to channel the Leftist train of thought or he was speaking about his on beliefs, compared to rural and suburban students, inner-city students are idiots. If we all agree, most people have an IQ in the 100 range, there must be other factors that are causing inner-city school students to have such failure rates, thus causing Johnson to say (one way or the other) that they are idiots. The statistics I quote above prove is statement.
Bruce Hayden has the correct (to me) answer: "Firstly, we have a number of people living in a dysfunctional environment, where the girls start having kids out of wedlock at a young age, and the boys end up in gangs, then prison, on drugs, or dead, with their seeming ambition to knock up as many of those girls as possible. Each generation is probably a little worse than the previous one."
Mary Beth said...
Has Obama, Clinton or Gore explained why they didn't send their kids to public schools?
I am a strong supporter of public schools. I went to one as did/do my kids. I don't have a problem with POTUS and VPOTUS of any party sending their kids to private schools. Security can be dealt with much more easily in that setting, since many other parents will be equally security conscious. This is unusually stupid complaint.
If we all agree, most people have an IQ in the 100 range, there must be other factors that are causing inner-city school students to have such failure rates, thus causing Johnson to say (one way or the other) that they are idiots.
But that's not true. Blacks average 86. Sub-saharan blacks average 70. So that's the range for those groups, where most of them cluster. Asians average higher than 100, and certain Jews higher yet (forget the particular group).
The important fact isn't IQ, which isn't going to keep you from graduating from high school in any of those ranges, but social conventions that prevail.
Blacks have a hecklers' veto over learning. The most unruly kids take charge. So nobody learns, motivated or not.
That's a cultural failure, not an IQ failure.
JohnDBandit:
What you can claim easily enough is that Democrats who run large cities fail students at alarming rates, regardless of the region of the country. That should simplify your thinking a bit.
Obama sent his kids to private schools well before he was POTUS.
Then he chose as Secretary of Education the man who ran the school district to which Obama did not send his own children.
George W Bush, on the other hand, sent his daughters to public school even while governor.
Funny how this word allows us to avoid meeting the substance of Johnson's argument. The topic has been magically transformed into LOOK!! OVER THERE! A BIGOT!!
If Johnson wants to play in the big boy's cesspool, he's got to know the rules of the game.
This is a REALLY stupid argument
"They just don’t want to let those idiot inner city kids that they.." is patently expressing the viewpoint (and desires) of "them," not "him."
The topic has been magically transformed into LOOK!! OVER THERE! A BIGOT!!
7/24/15, 10:14 AM
It's remarkable how frequently that seems to happen.
In the meantime, how many people have been shot in Baltimore since the riots?
We are not a serious country.
Why, it's almost as if liberals don't really care about the issues they lecture the rest of us about.
"boys end up in gangs, then prison, on drugs, or dead, with their seeming ambition to knock up as many of those girls as possible."
Completely ignoring those girls' desire, even societal pressure, to be knocked up young...
But there's a market for those free condoms..
@rhhardin
I agree with you about IQ. It's just that I can't think of a better, or easier, way to state my premises. What I was trying to say (I may be wrong) is that, yes there are people that are super smart, and there are people that are stump-ass stupid, but most people (bell curve) are born with an average intelligence. The reason that the inner-cities have larger failure rates isn't because of a lack of the students being born stupid but because of other factors.
@Birkel
Yes, I agree. Atlanta is a perfect example, if you have never heard, or have forgot, let me remind you of the Fulton Co. scandal.
"The scandal began in 2009 when the Atlanta Journal-Constitution published analyses of Criterion-Referenced Competency Tests (CRCT) results which showed statistically unlikely test scores, including extraordinary gains or losses in a single year.[1] An investigation by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation (GBI) released in July 2011 found that 44 out of 56 schools cheated on the 2009 CRCT.[2] 178 teachers and principals were found to have corrected answers entered by students.[3] The size of the scandal has been described as one of the largest in United States history."
The Leftist way. If you can't improve the situation, just fudge the results.
Derbyshire on a cultural difference. He does not say IQ, he says culture.
Linguistically, this whole zone is a mess. It's a mess because we're afraid to speak honestly about what's going on. When people are afraid to speak honestly, it's because there are true facts in the world that they'd prefer not to face.
True facts like these: For white yuppies from gentrified neighborhoods, a free public swimming pool is a place to swim a little, sunbathe a little, have fun with the kids a little if you're married, flirt a little if you're not, and catch up on some reading. For young blacks and Hispanics from the projects, it's a place to show off, status-challenge other young toughs, get in fights, and defy authority.
The two things don't mix. Whoever thought they would — whoever spent $50 million to bring this pool back to commission, with open admission for all who show up — is an idiot, an idiot whose brain has been addled by the kind of dishonest, reality-defying linguistic malpractice on display in the New York newspapers this week.
A small morsel of red meat for the racist and their cowardly apologists dominates the comments this morning. You got 'em hungry, Althouse. It seems like since forever that we've seen a Derbyshire quote.
Did you notice the word idiot in the Derbyshire quote? He wasn't talking about IQ there either. He was talking about reality-defying smart people.
That's another proof that IQ doesn't matter.
This is unusually stupid complaint.
I agree that they should be allowed to send their children to the school of their choice. But then some of them oppose vouchers.
I wanted to believe that Johnson was accusing liberals of holding the view that inner city kids are idiots. Unfortunately, he ruins that reading by going on to discuss how liberals want to keep these kids from getting the opportunities their own kids get. The full passage can most clearly be read as meaning he thinks inner city kids are idiots.
Well you can say that inner city kids are idiots but it's not a remark about IQ. It's a remark about behavior.
I have to disagree with Derbyshire, at the least on this point.
"A free public swimming pool is a place to swim a little, sunbathe a little, have fun with the kids a little if you're married, flirt a little if you're not, and catch up on some reading. For young blacks and Hispanics from the projects, it's a place to show off, status-challenge other young toughs, get in fights, and defy authority."
When I was a teen (circa 1980), living in middle Ga, our neighborhood had a community pool, with not a "person of color" to be found. There was plenty of showing off, status-challenging and defying of authority, plus a lot of weed, beer and whatever.
Sarcasm.
tim maguire:
Feel free to think whatever you like, as if the rest of the article were a mystery.
If one were talking about blacks and said "they..." and "them..." and "white people are racist." To whom would you ascribe the opinion "white people are racist" assuming the speaker was Senator Johnson?
ARM: This is unusually stupid complaint.
It only looks stupid if you're too stupid to understand the context, which is that of wealthy liberals protecting their own offspring from the consequences of the idiotic social and educational policies they foist on those with slimmer wallets and fewer options.
MayBee said...
Obama sent his kids to private schools well before he was POTUS.
MayBee said...
George W Bush, on the other hand, sent his daughters to public school even while governor.
So did Governor Walker here in WIscosniin.
How does "idiot" pop out? How does that happen?
---------------
Oh dear, ann.
You're much too old to be asking those types of questions.
Answer:
"It" popped out, because it was there all along, silly.
----------
* Remind us all again: you and Meade voted for this nice (old white) fella, right? ;-)
Whatever you do though, no matter how you manage your own children, fight vouchers tooth and nail because, God forbid that somebody who is not rich should escape the hell that is public schools to which you would never send your own children.
** There are none so blind as those who will not see...
ARM, I don't care if Obama sends his children to private school and you may have a valid point. What I object to is his banning of the vouchers that were allowing black DC kids to attend the same school on "opportunity scholarships." Whenever vouchers become available, just like charter schools, there is always a large group of black parents who want their kids to be able to get out of the hellish public schools and into a decent school. It is the only way a black kid in the inner city has a chance.
But the Democrats depend on the teachers' unions and their allies the public employees unions and so they must abandon the black kids who want to "act white" and go to a decent school.
Read a bit about Charles Payne's story. I used to listen to his program on the radio for several years before I learned he was black
""A free public swimming pool is a place to swim a little, sunbathe a little, have fun with the kids a little if you're married, flirt a little if you're not, and catch up on some reading. For young blacks and Hispanics from the projects, it's a place to show off, status-challenge other young toughs, get in fights, and defy authority."
The point is not race, but age. Young males tend to do these things, no matter their skin color.
His tendency to generalize is off-putting.
I know what he was saying and why. Not that it matters to those who have never voted for him and will never. The fake horror. Its like all these liberal/media types acting outraged over something Ted Cruz or Donald Trump says. As if they really objective in any sense.
Stop acting so intellectually superior.
Oh no. The I word.
Idiot was coped by mental health business for the dementia patients. But it means an uneducated peasant visiting the city.
Gov. Walker is a dropout. He went idiot for a hot Siclian
Momma. All feminists will tell you that men are idiots.
It is "unusually stupid" to remark on the fact that Obama fights school vouchers that would allow poor people to make the same choices he would for his own children.
Not sure why you wing nuts don't understand this.
@ Curious George
"So did Governor Walker here in Wisconsin."
Nothing wrong with that. I'm a product of a Ga public school. I've done alright. My wife is a product of a Ga public school. She has done alright too. I'm a computer programmer with a degree from UGA. She is a RN with a degree from Macon State College. And better than that, our boys: One has a law degree from Yale (no shit). The other has a network degree from MSC. Both have good jobs and I love them both, even the one that to Yale.
What I'm trying to say is it doesn't matter where you start you're education, it's where you end up that matters. And to bring this back around to idiot inner-city youth. If they want it bad enough, nothing should stand in their way.
You wonder how a complete moron like Ron Johnson got elected to the Senate. But it's Wisconsin, so it does make sense. #OurDumbSenator
Birkel said...tim maguire:
Feel free to think whatever you like, as if the rest of the article were a mystery.
If one were talking about blacks and said "they..." and "them..." and "white people are racist." To whom would you ascribe the opinion "white people are racist" assuming the speaker was Senator Johnson?
I may be free to think what I like, but I'm far too careful a thinker to do any such thing. But this is the internet, so you are free to make any adverse assumption you like...
Your analogy doesn't work because we are talking about a single adjective, not a complete sentence.
Does Jon Stewart send his kids to public schools, do you think? Just kidding.
Vouchers are bad, though.
"Some crimes are so egregious that even innocence is no excuse."
Hey everybody, RouterBoy's back!
""A free public swimming pool is a place to swim a little, sunbathe a little, have fun with the kids a little if you're married, flirt a little if you're not, and catch up on some reading. For young blacks and Hispanics from the projects, it's a place to show off, status-challenge other young toughs, get in fights, and defy authority."
The point is not race, but age. Young males tend to do these things, no matter their skin color.
His tendency to generalize is off-putting.
The cultural point is that blacks don't have fathers. The tendencies tend to show up pretty seriously when civilizing influences are absent, and uncivilizing ones predominate.
Black kids grow up into thugs. They didn't use to. It's not IQ.
garage,
"You wonder how a complete moron like Ron Johnson got elected to the Senate. But it's Wisconsin, so it does make sense."
Well, your state did vote for Obama twice, right?
I don't have a problem with POTUS and VPOTUS of any party sending their kids to private schools. Security can be dealt with much more easily in that setting, since many other parents will be equally security conscious. This is unusually stupid complaint.
OK, I'll grant you the security thing.
New question. Change POTUS and VPOTUS to Inner City Public Schoolteacher in the above sentence. Do you still feel the same way? There was a study done some years back that showed that they sent their kids to private schools at a higher rate than anyone else.
How stupid is the complaint now?
It only looks stupid if you're too stupid to understand the context, which is that of wealthy liberals protecting their own offspring from the consequences of the idiotic social and educational policies they foist on those with slimmer wallets and fewer options.
Which of course is EXACTLY the point Sen. Johnson was making...
You wonder how a complete moron like Ron Johnson got elected to the Senate. But it's Wisconsin, so it does make sense. #OurDumbSenator
Someone came up from the cellar to get some air, I see...
Young males tend to do these things, no matter their skin color.
Bullshit.
Young "toughs" do, however you want to describe that. I spent many summer days at our local public swimming pool. We had a couple of "tough" teen-aged boys and a couple of "tough" teen-aged girls. Regardless of gender, they were scum and their demeanor was directly the result of their upbringing and home life. And they were among a tiny minority that always seemed to cause outsized problems.
Walker's gonna be indicted any day now!!!
If he didn't have anything to hide, John Chisholm wouldn't be investigating him!!
@EMD
That's my point. I (according to today's standard) lived a white privileged life. And this white privileged life included a white privileged community pool. we couldn't add a pool to our own backyard because we were too close to the lake.
There was not a "person of color" to be found. But there was a lot of showing off, status-challenging and defying of authority. It ain't got (my public school English teaching mom just slapped me in the face) nothing to do with race.
"I don't have a problem with POTUS and VPOTUS of any party sending their kids to private schools. Security can be dealt with much more easily in that setting, since many other parents will be equally security conscious. This is unusually stupid complaint."
Security will be disruptive to the fitful attempts to learn by the children of the lower classes. Also, the lower class kids will feel bad when the upper class kids get straight A's and have their lunch delivered.
So it's for their own good, really, when you think about it. It's one more thing the poor kids should thank the rich kids for!
tim maguire:
Thought puzzler puzzling at warp speed but the hamsters just cannot get you from A to B. Maybe the analogy is wrong. Maybe you can fix it for me. Try fixing it and see if you can get those hamsters pulling in the same direction.
"garage mahal said...
You wonder how a complete moron like Ron Johnson got elected to the Senate. But it's Wisconsin, so it does make sense. #OurDumbSenator"
Ron Johnson has a degree in business and accounting from University of MN. He is a thesis short and effectively hads an MBA. He started as an accountant and machine operator for a small manufacturing company, ultimaely working up to become CEO and a millionaire.
#AlthouseBlogMoronGarageMahal
Calling Johnson a racist for what he said is like calling an anti-Nazi demonstration Nazis because they are carrying signs with swastikas on them.
Does Johnson support vouchers that cover the tuition for the top level private schools? In my hood that is well over $20,000 per year. These are the schools where rich folks send their kids.
Assuming that Johnson in favor of $25,000/year vouchers for inner city kids, there's another problem.
Even w/ dough, it's not easy to get into the elite schools in my hood. I'd assume that poor inner city folks can't prepare their kids the way rich folks can. To make sure these kids have a chance of meeting high academic standards, Johnson would need to provide all inner city kids with the typical benefits of the rich families he mentioned. Is he doing vouchers for nannies, personal assistants, domestic help and tutoring?
/rhetorical questions
If conservatives were less worked up about food stamps and/or nutritious food being provided to kids in school, it be easier to believe that they didn't mean to be mean.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2014/jan/20/ron-johnson/fraud-claims-20-25-cents-every-1-spent-four-govern/
PB&J wants everybody to acknowledge his street cred after using the word 'hood' multiple times without reference to a chemistry lab or high end kitchen.
Motion to acknowledge. Seconds?
How does "idiot" pop out? How does that happen?
To distinguish from the non-idiot inner city kids? We're to believe a blanket assessment is not only more accurate but also less racist?
I just read my last comment. It makes me sound like a asshole. I apologize. Trust me, I'm not. I do understand why you're not acknowledging my input. let's go back to my primary argument. It isn't the children's fault. Most children, no matter the color of their skin, are born with a thirst to learn.
This is basically the old, nurture vs environment argument. In my opinion, nurture wins every time. You are not born an idiot, you work at it your whole life.
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JohnDBandit: I'm a product of a Ga public school. I've done alright. My wife is a product of a Ga public school. She has done alright too [etc...]
We shouldn't be talking about "public schools" as if there were some uniform standard and experience across the nation. Some public schools are excellent. Some are sinks. I sent my kids to public schools, too. To compare our neighborhood public schools to those available to parents in the inner city is ridiculous.
What I'm trying to say is it doesn't matter where you start you're education, it's where you end up that matters.
For people blessed by nature - good brains and good temperament* - no, it probably doesn't matter. I know people from the most inauspicious backgrounds who are doing a good deal more than just fine. Their less naturally able peers from the same unfortunate environments could have used a little more help.
(*Sorry, but intelligence and the character traits associated with success are, too, significantly heritable.)
And to bring this back around to idiot inner-city youth. If they want it bad enough, nothing should stand in their way.
No, "wanting it bad enough" is not sufficient for a kid with an IQ of 80 who isn't provided with structure, discipline, and opportunities commensurate with his limited abilities by more able members of society.
"Does Johnson support vouchers that cover the tuition for the top level private schools? In my hood that is well over $20,000 per year. "
Name the school(s).
AReasonableMan said...
I am a strong supporter of public schools. I went to one as did/do my kids. I don't have a problem with POTUS and VPOTUS of any party sending their kids to private schools. Security can be dealt with much more easily in that setting, since many other parents will be equally security conscious. This is unusually stupid complaint.
Barack Obama sent his kids to private school long before he was President and therefore before security was a concern. This is a typically stupid adventure in excuse making.
Barack Obama sent his kids to private school long before he was President and therefore before security was a concern. This is a typically stupid adventure in excuse making.
The problem isn't Obama and other powerful Democrats sending their kids to private school. The problem is Obama and other powerful Democrats blocking vouchers and charter schools so that poor (mainly Black) parents could do the same thing.
Blogger Gabriel said...
Calling Johnson a racist for what he said is like calling an anti-Nazi demonstration Nazis because they are carrying signs with swastikas on them.
Unless those anti-Nazi demonstrators are from the tea party.
Walter srote:
"Name the school(s)."
The school Obama attended, Punahou School, charges $22,500/year.
http://www.punahou.edu/admission/tuition/index.aspx
If conservatives were less worked up about food stamps and/or nutritious food being provided to kids in school
Have you ever been around a suburban high school during breakfast or lunch? My school is 85% or more free lunch and breakfast, and everyday, most of it is wasted. They don't even drink the chocolate milk.
If only the kids who really needed it qualified, and then they actually ate the food instead of throwing it away, I would't have a problem with it.
walter,
Actually, to respond to you I just checked: the school I was thinking of is more expensive than it used to be. My earlier comment assumed some inflation since I attended, but I underestimated it.
It's now $30,000 per year
http://www.lakesideschool.org/podium/default.aspx?t=142934&rc=0
Is Johnson for $30,000 vouchers. And, is he for covering the additional costs that rich families pay as they raise their kids?
"If conservatives were less worked up about food stamps and/or nutritious food being provided to kids in school, it be easier to believe that they didn't mean to be mean."
If liberals were less concerned about handing tax dollars to ConAgra it would be easier to believe that they weren't corrupt crony capitalists.
@Anglelyne
I hope you read my early comment on this subject. If you are jumped in at the end, you probable think that I am endorsing inner-city schools. What I'm trying to say is: On the average, no child is born an idiot (rural, urban, suburban), it is their environment that is the problem.
The vouchers don't need to be for $30,000. Let parents get vouchers equal to (or even slightly less than) the average per pupil spending for their school district. Private schools will open up in those areas. Most will charge tuition equal to the voucher. Some will charge a little more and offer even more services. The private schools will compete with each other (and the public school) with the best rising to the top.
It really is that simple.
Average Private School Tuition Cost by state(2014-2015)
Speaking of Nazis..an always lofty point in a discussion, Walker kept his kids in pubic schools while being labeled one. But I'm sure he is faulted for that as well: "The nervvvee! (of that Nazi)"
PB&J,
"The rich" may indeed send their kids to elite private schools. However, there are others significantly less expensive than the Seattle, WA school you point to..assuming they offer no aid, scholarships etc. that many private schools offer. It's a weak argument to suggest no options are better than the best of the best.
"You deserve the absolute very best! And since we can't give you the very best, you're better off with nothing at all!"
The way economics works is at the margins. Even a $1000 voucher would move a lot of private school kids into $20k/year schools. Some people are missing the point of Johnson's criticism, which is that Dems, in particular, are willing to sacrifice the education of other people's children to get the votes and campaign contributions of public school teachers.
JohnDBandit: Most children, no matter the color of their skin, are born with a thirst to learn.
No, they're not. Some children are more intelligent and more curious than others. Some kids are temperamentally more disciplined and future-oriented. They're born that way. (And there is no reason to be confident that the distribution of these traits doesn't and couldn't vary by race or sex.)
Honestly, people with above-average intelligence seem to live in IQ-caste bubbles where they simply don't have much real interaction with those significantly more or significantly less intelligent than they are.
This is basically the old, nurture vs environment argument. In my opinion, nurture wins every time. You are not born an idiot, you work at it your whole life.
(Assume you mean "nature vs. nurture", not "nurture vs. environment".)
No, John, some people are just not very bright, and no amount of nurture is going to turn them into the high-achieving, self-directed individuals you seem to think everyone can be, if only they want it badly enough!. All the people for whom it really is a struggle to function in an increasingly complicated and automated world are not intelligent slackers who just need to stop working on being idiots and get with the program.
"Assuming that Johnson in favor of $25,000/year vouchers for inner city kids, there's another problem."
Another village just lost its idiot. Nobody is talking about $20,000 or $30,000 private schools. Do some research. When vouchers have been available, schools have been started. Check Louisiana. Of course, that would require you to learn about Bobby Jindal.
For example, my former high school in Chicago is now 100% black. The neighborhood is blue collar but the parents come up with the tuition. If vouchers were available in Chicago, a lot of Catholic schools that have closed would still be there and serving this generation of city kids. The expensive private schools are almost all in suburbs.
For da school in yer "hood": "Lakeside tuition for the 2014-15 school year is $29,800. If the full tuition is a stretch for your family's income and resources, there is an extensive need-based financial aid program that supports qualifying families with annual incomes that range from $10,000 - $310,000. The financial assistance for recipients extends beyond just tuition and covers additional school-related costs including, but not limited to, food, books, bus, laptop, and field trips.
The financial aid committee awarded $5.5 million in need-based tuition aid and will award over $600,000 for non-tuition costs to 30 percent of the student population; the average tuition for a financial aid recipient is $7,500."
rhhardin said...
There's an inner city black problem - coded as behaving like idiots - but it's related to progressivism, not IQ.
"IQ deficits are reliably associated with delinquency."
Neurocognitive deficits related to poor decision making in people behind bars
rhhardin said...
That's another proof that IQ doesn't matter.
Why g [=general intelligence] Matters: The Complexity of Everyday Life
"These and other data are summarized to illustrate how the advantages of higher g, even when they are small, cumulate to affect the overall life chances of individuals at different ranges of the IQ bell curve."
The nonshared [=not family] influences are by far the largest environmental (non-genetic) influences on intelligence -- in fact, they are the only detectable non-genetic influences. ...
"By now these results are well understood and accepted by experts, but not by the general population or even policy makers.** (See the work of Judith Rich Harris for popular exposition). The naive and still widely held expectation is that, e.g., high SES causes a good learning environment, leading to positive outcomes for children raised in such environments. However, the data suggests that what is really being passed on to the children is the genes of the parent, which are mainly responsible for, e.g., above average IQ outcomes in high SES homes (surprise! high SES parents actually have better genes, on average). Little or no positive effect can be traced to the SES variable for adopted children.
The implications are quite shocking, especially for two groups: high investment parents (because the ability of parents to influence their child's development appears limited) and egalitarians (because the importance of genes and the difficulty in controlling environmental effects seem to support the Social Darwinist position widely held in the previous century)."
**That's the reason for all the nonsense about "failing schools", when the actual problem is schools with lots of stupid kids. For example, this article from the SJW's at Reason:
Judge Allows Parents to Force Charter Takeover of Poorly Performing Elementary School
The schools is 85% Hispanic[sic] - but the Asians at the school "perform" quite a bit above state average, so there's really nothing wrong with the school itself:
Enrollment: Hispanic 85.01%; Asian 3.85%
Percent of Students Scoring at Proficient or Advanced in "English, Math"
Hispanic "40, 55"
Asian "82, 97"
You have a distribution of kids with an aptitude to be successful at school. The shape of the curve doesn't matter, because public schools have to take everyone. The kids at the low end of the aptitude curve will consume the most resources. The kids at the high end will therefore receive fewer resources. As a result, those kids at the high end may not do as well as they would if they received more resources -- state college rather than an Ivy. As a parent, your job is get the most resources directed towards your kid. It ain't hard to figure this out.
walter,
That school, and presumably the ones that are used by the libs Johnson specifically called out, are extremely hard to get into, even with the dough. Parents spend massive money to get kids in the right track for the privilege of spending $30,000 per year.
And then, beyond the difficulty for full dough folks, it'd be hard to overestimate how competitive it is get in on a scholarship. At which point the kids still need to keep up with the rich kids who continue to have all the extracurricular scholastic benefits that money can buy.
Johnson decided to use the rich and connected to make a point about vouchers, but he's not offering rich vouchers that would level the field. Rich folks send their kids to elite schools that are much better than average private schools with low tuition rates. Johnson's not in favor of leveling this inequity, and yet for political points he's yipping about rich folks being rich. On a right wing radio show he's hoping the idiots who support him won't take a second to think about what he's really doing.
I live in Minnesota. According to the link, the average private high school is $10,109. Minneapolis spends over $14,000 per student. Why not a voucher for, say, $11,000? Parents who want their kids in a better school can do so and the per pupil spending in the Minneapolis schools will get to go up even more. Win-win, right?
(Source for Minneapolis spending: http://www.startribune.com/billboard-shames-minneapolis-school-district-spending/290816491/)
Btw, how cool is it to have financial aid for families that make $310,000 per year?
I no math genius, but I think folks making Seattle's $15/hr min wage will fit under that.
"it'd be hard to overestimate how competitive it is get in on a scholarship."
Of course, you offer no metric or source..so we'll just have to believe you, right?
That you made no mention of the seemingly significant financial aid mentioned on the web site suggests a bit of caution about your proclamations...
PB&J: "You deserve the absolute very best! And since we can't give you the very best, you're better off with nothing at all!"
Paco Wove:
Sarcasm and truth are lost on this one.
@Anglelyne:
I really wish you had read my earlier entries. You do seem to posses a highly developed sense of intelligence. What I am trying to say is, yes there are mental morons, and there are children that are curious, and are always asking why. But if you look at the bell curve most children start school with basically the same average amount of intellectual prowess.
walter,
Presumably you believe in supply and demand. How do you think a school gets to charge $30,000 without a lot of demand?
Maybe folks just pay that because they think they'll do well by following Paul Allen and Bill Gates.
PBandJ_LeDouanier said...
Btw, how cool is it to have financial aid for families that make $310,000 per year?
Public schools count as financial aide? What a strange world we live in.
How often do they actually get $30k? Looks like they have some flexibility there. If it was that competitive to get in, there would be no financial aid offered...
Blogger JohnDBandit said...
What I'm trying to say is: On the average, no child is born an idiot (rural, urban, suburban), it is their environment that is the problem.
100% incorrect. Does your false belief, unsupported by data, therefore a religious belief, make you feel like a good person?
Anglelyne said...
No, John, some people are just not very bright, and no amount of nurture is going to turn them into the high-achieving, self-directed individuals you seem to think everyone can be, if only they want it badly enough!.
Quite so.
I find it quite fascinating how so many people, regardless of their politics, are literally anti-science when it comes to their fellow humans. As Hsu says, above: "By now these results are well understood and accepted by experts, but not by the general population or even policy makers." Adult intelligence (in the US, Europe, etc) is almost entirely determined by genetics, and similarly for most aspects of personality.
You're right walter, that school is easy to get into.
I have no doubt that your public or low-end private school training is the reason that you're so brilliant.
It is an inference drawn from the implications of a paradox created between the incongruence of Obama et al's words and actions.
Ah..well..if you want to resort to ad hominem..you were apparently truthful announcing your lack of math genius, having refernced but clearly not understanding supply and demand concepts. It's also likely that the aid given is offset by cost-shifting to full cost payers...something you probably like. So..got that going for ya..in da hood.
Anglelyne
"Honestly, people with above-average intelligence seem to live in IQ-caste bubbles where they simply don't have much real interaction with those significantly more or significantly less intelligent than they are."
And so it is that we are often slow to understand that the reason we are not making progress with the other side, that we are not connecting, is that the other side, the other person is dumb. It is not the first explanation that comes to mind but it is more often than not the correct one.
Ever notice how you never see PB&J and Herbert Kornfeld in the same comment section?
JohnDBandit: I really wish you had read my earlier entries.
I read them the first time 'round. Nothing in them supports (or refutes, for that matter) your claims about intelligence here.
But if you look at the bell curve most children start school with basically the same average amount of intellectual prowess.
?
This makes as much sense as saying "a look at the bell curve shows most children start school with basically the same average amount of height".
Populations have an average. Individuals don't. I think you're trying to say that different populations have "basically the same average" for measures of "intellectual prowess, but that isn't true. Or maybe, "most children, aside from the extreme outliers, have comparable intellectual capacity", but that isn't true, either.
I don't think it's necessarily hypocritical to oppose vouchers for private school while still sending your own kids to private schools. You may believe the vouchers would be unsustainable, or would gut funding for public schools, which you acknowledge are poor and need to be improved but you don't want your own kids to suffer there in the meantime. The bigger issue for me is the people who oppose any form of education reform, be it charters or vouchers or public school overhaul.
As for Obama, while he hasn't been great on this issue he's at least been on record favoring some reforms and ran afoul of the unions for it. President Hillary would be far worse, as she's hand in glove with the teachers unions.
I'm as right wing as most of you, but Gosh-darnit: Show me your proof that blacks are inferior to other races. I have lived among blacks all my life.
At 55, I remember true segregation. I, along with my 6th grade class (Thomas), was segregated into a black school(Pearl Shephens). The Feds forced us to integrate. Day after day, we where locked in school rooms, with newspaper covering the windows, so we wouldn't see the blacks.
We could hear them playing outside during recess, but we couldn't join in. We couldn't even go to the lunchroom (they gave use sack lunches). We were basically locked in one room, supporting LBJ's civil right act. True story. Ask me I'll tell ya more.
Since the public transportation system in my area sucks, am I entitled to a government voucher for my own personal Cadillac?
Did Obama and other powerful Democrats really use welfare dollars (aka "vouchers") when they sent their kids to private school or is the Tea Party crowd making false comparisons and hoping nobody notices?
I'm as right wing as most of you, but Gosh-darnit: Show me your proof that blacks are inferior to other races. I have lived among blacks all my life.
IQ shows up on IQ tests, not in actual life.
Culture turns up in actual life.
I'm sorry, I wasn't segregated into pearl shephens. I was desegregated. Has any of you? Do you even know black people?
I live in Minnesota. According to the link, the average private high school is $10,109. Minneapolis spends over $14,000 per student. Why not a voucher for, say, $11,000? Parents who want their kids in a better school can do so and the per pupil spending in the Minneapolis schools will get to go up even more. Win-win, right?
This is the problem, and, no, it is not win-win, because the money no longer goes to unionized public school teachers, who spend some of that money electing complacent school boards, and some of the rest electing Dem politicians. They are one of the most powerful constituencies in the Democratic party, typically more powerful than the minorities that they keep in ill-performing schools. I remember seeing a statistic a decade or so ago that unionized teachers provided maybe 1/3 of the delegates to the DNC. Probably not that bad any more, but it is evidence of a big problem in the Democratic party.
So, what I see Sen. Johnson doing here is trying to call out the prominent Dem politicians who go out of their way to not alienate the unionized government school teachers, despite their iron hold on school districts across the country means that so many children, and esp. minority low income children, are never provided decent educational opportunities. These Dem politicians back the unionized public school teachers up until it comes to their own children, which they insist on having educated at the best schools available. They have to money (and connections) to get their kids into and out of these top schools. Most of their constituents do not. So, what you need to do here is realize that the important thing is not that government schools are inefficient, but that diverting those dollars into vouchers, charter schools, etc. is taking them out of the pockets of unionized government teachers (and, thus, ultimately, the pockets of Dem politicians).
madisonfella: sure, you're entitled to a voucher for your portion of the local transportation taxes you pay, to be used for your own chosen transportation method, less the cost of your using that method (ie you can't get the portion of taxes you paid for the road if you're still driving, but you can get back the portion you paid [or that would be paid on your behalf] for a bus you won't use). If you choose to use that towards a Caddy that's your business.
Your reductio isn't very absurbum!
I don't think it's necessarily hypocritical to oppose vouchers for private school while still sending your own kids to private schools. You may believe the vouchers would be unsustainable, or would gut funding for public schools, which you acknowledge are poor and need to be improved but you don't want your own kids to suffer there in the meantime. The bigger issue for me is the people who oppose any form of education reform, be it charters or vouchers or public school overhaul.
I do think that it is hypocritical, esp. when it comes to politicians whose real reason to oppose them is to cater to the government teachers unions, which stand to lose money when the money is diverted to vouchers, charter schools, etc. They may pretend that vouchers are unsustainable, but they face the reality that in most cases parents can get much better value for educational dollar spent than can government schools. And, if the non-performing school districts' budgets are gutted as a result, is that bad? I don't think so. But, that is why I distrust our governments, and progressives don't.
Ron Johnson has a degree in business and accounting from University of MN. He is a thesis short and effectively hads an MBA. He started as an accountant and machine operator for a small manufacturing company, ultimaely working up to become CEO and a millionaire.
Is "working up to" the new way of saying "marrying into"?
Whatever his credentials, there is no doubt Senator Johnson always considers himself the smartest guy in the room. For proof just look at his statements directed towards the MIT physicist yesterday during the Senate Foreign Relations Committee's hearing.
madisonfella said...Did Obama and other powerful Democrats really use welfare dollars (aka "vouchers") when they sent their kids to private school or is the Tea Party crowd making false comparisons and hoping nobody notices?
I'm sure they paid their own way, madisonfella, using their own money. They were able to because they're rich, and good for them. I thought the liberal line, though, was that good things shouldn't only go to the rich. If you don't agree w/that idea then good for you, but if you do...
Well, the voucher idea is that people (rich and non-rich) can get an amount roughly equivalent to what the state would spend on their child and the parents can then use that to choose what kind of schooling the child gets. They funds could then be applied towards an expensive private school, say, maybe one a middle-class parent couldn't have afforded otherwise. The funds might be used to take the child to a lower-cost school that just happens to be in a different geographic location, or use a different teaching method, etc. The key is giving the parents the choice of how to best use those resources for their child.
The comparison is being made because people who oppose vouchers oppose the ability of non-rich parents to make any kind of a choice other than their local public school. The rich voucher opponents don't send their own children to the local public schools, having judged them inadequate for their own children. Because they're rich they have the ability to make that choice. Voucher proponents think having vouchers would give them a similar choice, even without being rich. Voucher proponents point out the disconnect between rich liberals' simultaneous 1.)insistence that the market/wealth shouldn't determine who gets nice things, 2.) stated belief that people shouldn't be given a choice to leave public schools (via vouchers), and 3.) revealed preference for nicer schools than non-rich people can afford when they send their own kids to expensive private schools.
That's the comparison that's being made and I'm pretty sure you understand it. Rich liberals are essentially saying "public schools are good enough that non-rich people shouldn't be given the choice to leave (via vouchers) if they so choose" and "oh by the way these schools are good enough for MY precious lil' babies" at the same time.
Idiots "pop out" all the time, except in poorer parts of New York City.
"boys end up in gangs, then prison, on drugs, or dead, with their seeming ambition to knock up as many of those girls as possible."
Completely ignoring those girls' desire, even societal pressure, to be knocked up young...
Not disagreeing, but that is really a different discussion. Part of subsidizing single parenthood (as well as pushing commitment-free sex) is that females no longer need to find husbands/long-term mates. The result is that the alpha males get much more of the sex, and, in the inner city ghettos, the babies. Which is fine with them, since we, not they, have to support those babies financially. And, yes, the alpha males there often tend to be the biggest and baddest who have survived and aren't currently in prison.
maddisoxfella wrote:
"Whatever his credentials, there is no doubt Senator Johnson always considers himself the smartest guy in the room."
You mean like our affirmative action president?
I must say, however, that as someone who has undoubtedly benefited from affirmative action programs during my academic career, and as someone who may have benefited from the Law Review’s affirmative action policy when I was selected to join the Review last year, I have not personally felt stigmatized either within the broader law school community or as a staff member of the Review.
http://hlrecord.org/?p=11263
I have not made it as far in life as either Johnson or Obama, but I am 100% certain that I got where I am entirely on my own. No family connections, no rich wife, and no affirmative action.
Oh, here's a story, a true story. After 30 yrs, and two Ga teacher of the year awards, Green Aches Baptist Church decided to confront my mother. Do you want to know what caused her to be excommunicated? She believed in evolution
I Johnson manages to get a pre-emptive Nobel, THEN he'll be the smartest in the room.
Another thing to keep in mind here is that this is a hot button subject in much of the Black community. They vote for the Dem politicians, but then the Dem politicians back the unionized government teachers, and keep any of those educational dollars from being spent on improving the education being provided to many in their community. Of course, Black leadership sends their kids to the same private school as do the white politicians, etc. (My memory is that Rev. Jackson's kids were in the same exclusive U. Chicago school that Obama's were, before being elected President). Meanwhile another generation of Black youth are sacrificed for the crumbs that the Dem politicians give them. Wonder why "Black Lives Matter" so much, and "All Lives Matter" is seen as a cop-out by the Black community this summer? A lot of that involves this institutional fight between the Black community, whose kids are being so short changed, and the unionized government teachers. The Black Lives Matter crowd are trying to tell Dem politicians to not take them for granted, as they have for the last 50 or so years.
HoodlumDoodlum - I understand that liberals like you want to make the entire world "fair" for everybody and that's a wonderful beautiful thing for you to want. I hate to pop your bubble, but no matter how many times you sing "kumbiya" and wring your hands the world is still not going to be a fair place. The rich will always have more than the poor. If you don't like it, then don't be poor.
But that's not even the major issue here. The problem with "vouchers" is that it is totally unaccountable to the taxpayers and instead all the choices lay completely with the welfare recipient. Even food stamps and Section-8 housing has more accountability and rules than these vouchers programs, and look at how riddled with fraud they are! As bad as some public schools are, at least they are somewhat answerable to the public (via elected school board officials). If you want to use my money to send your kids to a fancy-ass private school then I better have a say in how that school is ran. Otherwise, keep your grubby hands out of my wallet.
When you look at the fact that 75% of all voucher applicants already have their children in a private school, then it is obvious this really isn't a program designed for people who need to escape a bad school at all. It sickens me how quickly so many so-called "conservatives" are quick to jump on the welfare train when it is their lips pressed against the government tit.
You mean like our affirmative action president?
EXCELLENT comparison. Neither man earned their way to where they are today, and in both cases, it shows.
"I wasn't segregated into pearl shephens. I was desegregated. Has any of you?"
Still trying to parse this. Not succeeding.
"Neither man earned their way to where they are today, and in both cases, it shows."
Neither did Bush. But the point isn't that they did not "earn' their way to political office. Whoever gets the most votes wins, and earning votes isn't an intellectual exercise. Bush never claimed to be the smartest person in the room. Neither has Johnson. Obama, despite the fact that he knows that the applications of more qualified students were set aside to allow him into Columbia and Harvard, still believes that he is the smartest person in the room. He does not acknowledge any principled opposition to his policies. His opponents are simply not as smart as he is. Jesus.
Yes Terry, Obama is self-centered and narcissistic. No argument here, so you'll have to find some other squirrel if you want to distract me away from pointing out how full of himself Sen Ron Johnson is.
"Whoever gets the most votes wins"
A strange statement in comment regarding W.
Presumably there was supposed to be a footnote that stated you weren't talking about actually getting most citizens to vote for the winning candidate. Don't forget that on election day Bush didn't get the most votes, and that has nothing to do with hanging chads.
He was clearly, if inelegantly, asserting the Obama and other limousine libs' opinion of inner city kids. And asserting it accurately.
Why do Republicans always have foot-in-mouth disease?
Because Dems see feet everywhere..
Meanwhile, yesterday Hillary! said this: "“I mean, if we're honest, for a lot of well-meaning, open-minded white people, the sight of a young black man in a hoodie still evokes a twinge of fear.” I have not noticed the uproar.
PBandJ @ 3:33,
Actually, Bush did get the most votes.
"The problem with 'vouchers' is that it is totally unaccountable to the taxpayers and instead all the choices lay completely with the welfare recipient."
That statement was just a matter of time...
Why such contempt for the poor? You don't want to help them; you want to control their decision making.
200!
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