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८८ टिप्पण्या:
Perhaps with planes, bombs, tanks, ships, etc.? Aren't those the things you use to "combat"?
How about 21st century ideas vs. 15th century ones?
And, by gosh, there's nothing those Medieval minded ISIS guys would like to do more than plunder Rome once again. Just like they did in the Middle Ages!
The US told its NATO allies for decades that they needed to increase defense spending to 2% of GDP as specified in the NATO treaty. But no, Europe wanted its tax dollars to be spent in the great social democracy circle jerk, where enough never is enough.
The EU bought into its "post-national" ideology with such fervor that it never really paid much mind to the fact that the rest of the world was firmly stuck at "national" at best. Now, Europe is realizing once again that there are people out there who want to hurt them, and they can't do a damn thing about it.
The Vespa Brigade is on it.
Ciao!
Liberals, I blame the liberals.
“Our proposal is to wait for the UN Security Council. The strength of the UN is decidedly superior to that of the radical militias.”
Yes, the UNSC may be stronger, but it's will is much weaker.
If one bumped into such naive faith at Lourdes, it might be touching. But, from a government official?
So I guess the Italian army isn't a whole lot better today than it was in World War II?
There is a certain irony in the fact that Pope Urban called for the retaking of Jerusalem in the 10th century and now the Moslems are targeting Italy and Rome.
Irony, not retribution.
That strong UN had troops on the ground in Rwanda and all they did was stand around and watch those weak Hutus with machetes kill a couple hundred thousand people.
How can they possibly be stopped? According to our Commander in Chief, these are just random extremists killing random people.
Huh? Explain to me the irony or the retribution.
Muslim armies invade Christian lands, kill Christians, and threaten other Christians. Then Western Church comes to the defense of the Eastern Church (i.e. the Crusades).
Meanwhile, in the other direction, Muslim armies invade Christian Portugal, Spain and France. Then are stopped by Christian forces led by Charles Martel.
Again, where's the irony for the latest episode of Muslim aggression? They are acting merely in response to those Christians a thousand years ago that had the audacity to defend themselves? Huh?
In other news --
Are people of the left really this stupid?? Do they really not comprehend what "Rome" means? Even when the barbarians repeatedly speak of the cross?
In any event, no, Rome is not "panicking." The Church expects to be hated and despised and persecuted. A few dozen popes have been martyred. Pope Francis is not afraid that he might join that list.
Francis is such a good guy, he'll convert them in no time.
But really, it's all a publicity stunt for Houellebecq's new book.
Islamic terrorists in Libya?
What difference at this point does it make???
I am a pretty peaceful guy, but am starting to think that Spengler might be right. Every once in a while, in the course of civilization, it sadly just becomes necessary to wipe out a rather large number of death-loving people who believe crazy things. This is how we ended slavery. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EF12Ak01.html
Mark,
I'm actually in support of the defense of the Western Church and Jerusalem in the first Crusades as I understand it.
Too many others, including Obama, do not see it as justifiable.
Irony may be a poor choice of words. Maybe this is a reverse replay of the spiritual struggle played out then, now threatened to be played out once again with Rome as the prize this time and the Moslems as "crusaders".
The radical Moslems surely see this as some retribution for their ultimate defeat and the culmination of centuries of pent-up hatred of Christians.
ISIS coming for the jobs right? The ones the Romans won't do.
State Department spokeswoman floats jobs as answer to ISIS: What the West really needs to take on the Islamic State is ... a jobs program.
That's what a top State Department spokeswoman suggested when asked in a TV interview Monday night about what the U.S.-led coalition is doing to stop the slaughter of civilians by Islamic State militants across the region.....Harf continued to argue that the U.S. should work with other countries to "help improve their governance" and "help them build their economies so they can have job opportunities for these people."
She acknowledged there's "no easy solution" and said the U.S. would still take out ISIS leaders. But Harf said: "If we can help countries work at the root causes of this -- what makes these 17-year-old kids pick up an AK-47 instead of trying to start a business?"
A jobs program! Stimulus! That's the ticket!
Jobs and Justice, the men of ISIS cried!
They sure do seem to know how the arc of history bends towards justice.
here is a lengthy article and I did read most of it. Somebody should nip this in the bud. These people are sick.
From the article: "Non-muslims cannot tell Muslims how to practice their religion properly." Sure we can when they start killing people of their own faith and others in the name of religion.
I think a good job for you, Fawaz, would be to walk very sternly with your Kalashnikov over to that cell phone vendor with a picture of a human being in front of his business, and pretty much let him know the penalty for such things is death.
From the front-lines to waiting in line at the death penalty DMV!
Wonder if anyone has thought of a Midnight Basketball program or tuition-free community colleges in addition to a jobs program for ISIS?
"what makes these 17-year-old kids pick up an AK-47 instead of trying to start a business?"
@alan markus, couldn't we ask the same question of Chicago? Except they're a quite bit more likely to pick up a handgun in Chicago, but that's presumably because AK-47s are more expensive on the black market.
MadisonMan,
Why the 15th c.? Islam is, oh, 700+ years older than that. Or if you mean the high-water marks of Islam in Europe, they're either earlier (e.g., al-Andaluz) or later (e.g., the siege of Vienna).
with Rome as the prize this time and the Moslems as "crusaders".
Again, huh?? You mean that ISIS is defending Muslim Rome? WTF?
The crusades were defensive, not offensive. The crusaders were defending, they were not the aggressors.
The night the Benghazi Consulate was attacked the US Forces in Italy were told to stand down and let them die.
Whoever made that decision opened the door to Italy's slaughter by ISIS.
Great job Hildabeast..
From the Atlantic article linked to by pm317 above:
Fascism, Orwell continued, is
psychologically far sounder than any hedonistic conception of life … Whereas Socialism, and even capitalism in a more grudging way, have said to people “I offer you a good time,” Hitler has said to them, “I offer you struggle, danger, and death,” and as a result a whole nation flings itself at his feet … We ought not to underrate its emotional appeal.
The liberals & lefties whom think this is all about jobs should re-read Orwell. This isn't about jobs. It's about being Conan the Barbarian & getting sanctified for doing so.
One of the events that began my turn to the right-wing dark side was the realization that, after 9/11, we were facing a movement based around an apocalyptic spirituality, and social democrats just suck at wrapping their heads around apocalyptic spirituality. For them, it's always a cover for a "deeper" malaise that a sooper-dooper application of yet more social democracy can cure.
As long as Rome is careful to characterize the deliberate, targeted killing of innocent people as "random" or "workplace violence" I'm sure they'll be fine.
We've seen this cycle before....humanity's leadership ebbs, a great regional threat emerges and suddenly the weakness of modern leadership becomes stark reality, humanity rises up and rebels it....
Oh wait, you mean 70 years ago - 3.5 generations - we barely scraped the axis from the earth by the skin of our teeth and the good fortune of having scientists be slightly ahead of the curve on our side? That those forces of evil, through sheer will and success, had conquered or allied with countries spanning half the globe and supporting them with soldiers and logistics? And that the rise of that enemy took only about a decade?
The greatest boon we have right now to fighting ISIS (aka the same evil as Al Qaeda, just better organized and succeeding more regionally), is that they are still amateurs at organized warfare.
The greatest threat we have right now to fighting ISIS is a combination of at-risk allies who are even MORE of amateurs at organized warfare AND very few leaders with the fortitude to put serious tacticians on the battlefield with all options on the table.
Get those young men some jobs before they kill us all !
I am waiting for the President to send ICE chartered airliners over to Syria and bring back Brigades of ISIS immigrants to get jobs here that Americans wont do. They can set up a welcoming encampment for them with room for their weapons and ammunition right outside Washington. The overflow will occupy the National Cathedral.
Oh, that is their job !
Oh.
Obama and his administration are perhaps the worst suited for the crises we have around the world. This is what happens when things are not done for the right reasons -- yeah, let us put this black man who has absolutely no resume in the WH, just because of his skin. I have never seen a more incompetent group of people than the lefties who made this happen. Hillary would not have been this.
@traditionalguy, have you seen Drudge lately?
I was kidding about a Brigade of ISIS immigrants. But on Drudge it says Sheik Obama thought of it and it's in process now.
Hey, they're depraved on account of they're deprived!
We wish you to know what a grievous cause has led us to your country, for it is the imminent peril threatening you and all the faithful which has brought us hither.
From the confines of Jerusalem and from the city of Constantinople a grievous report has gone forth and has -repeatedly been brought to our ears; namely, that a race from the kingdom of the Persians, an accursed race, a race wholly alienated from God, `a generation that set not their heart aright and whose spirit was not steadfast with God,' violently invaded the lands of those Christians and has depopulated them by pillage and fire. They have led away ap art of the captives into their own country, and a part have they have killed by cruel tortures. They have either destroyed the churches of God or appropriated them for the rites of their own religion. They destroy the altars, after having defiled them with their uncleanness....The kingdom of the Greeks is now dismembered by them and has been deprived of territory so vast in extent that it could be traversed in two months' time.
"On whom, therefore, is the labor of avenging these wrongs and of recovering this territory incumbent, if not upon you, you upon whom, above all other nations, God has conferred remarkable glory in arms, great courage, bodily activity, and strength to humble the heads of those who resist you ? Let the deeds of your ancestors encourage you and incite your minds to manly achievements:-the greatness of King Charlemagne, and of his son Louis, and of your other monarchs, who have destroyed the kingdoms of the Turks and have extended the sway of Church over lands previously possessed by the pagan. Let the holy sepulcher of our Lord and Saviour, which is possessed by unclean nations, especially arouse you, and the holy places which are now treated, with ignominy and irreverently polluted with the filth of the unclean. Oh, most valiant soldiers and descendants of invincible ancestors, do not degenerate; our progenitors., but recall the valor of your progenitors.
When I read this headline earlier I thought it was from The Onion. Wow.
1) Pope calls a crusade.
2) Christian volunteers flock from all over the world.
3) The issue gets settled, one way or the other.
That's what it is going to come down to in the end people...
They want to die for their cause....and they want to take you with them.
How about 21st century ideas vs. 15th century ones?
Won't work. This is about faith not ideas.
So we have this grand alliance, NATO, and Italy, a member with a population of more than 61 million people, can deploy only 5,000 troops in a crisis.
Maybe we should forget about Europe and make a deal with North Korea (population 24.8 million, with 1.2 million people under arms) to help us in future conflicts.
- DEC (Jungle Trader)
Hey, I've got an idea. When you have a secular ruler who has openly and verifiably complied with Western demands to end support for terrorism and end his WMD programs, don't fucking overthrow him for the hell of it when he tries to put down a rebellion led by Islamic fundamentalists.
Oh, wait, that's what we would have had to do back in 2011, rather than something we can do now. Thanks for fucking it up, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.
O saving Victim, open wide
the gate of heaven to man below;
our foes press on from every side;
thine aid supply; thy strength bestow.
All praise and thanks to thee ascend
for evermore, blest One in Three;
O grant us life that shall not end
in our true native land with thee.
--St Thomas Aquinas
I would try recommending trying some strategic patience, and if that doesn't work, try pointing out that people just don't behave that way in the 21st century and referring to them as a "regional power".
The Italians actually fought fairly well in North Africa as part of Rommel's command. Perhaps they shouldn't lose heart.
Although I'm not sure Germany has any generals anymore, and anyway if ISIS sics Ethiopians on the Italians, that'll be all she wrote.
The young woman from the State Department who proposed jobs programs as the best long-term response to ISIS (she said ISIL, of course), mentioned in passing that Libya is an example of an environment that encourages "extremism" because it lacks effective governance. I don't believe she was asked what happened to the previous, effective government of Libya.
Where's Hillary!? Perhaps she knows.
Obama not only transformed America he transformed the world, it didn't have to be the way it is now.
@dreams, based on the latest Gallup poll, I'm forced to conclude that fifty per cent of the people who responded to the latest Gallup poll are certifiably insane.
The Pope did not sound too panicked.
How many divisions does he have?
More than you think.
5000 troops? WTF? The Italian Mafia probably has more troops. And they're more likely to sell arms and hookers to ISIS than protect the Vatican since Francis rightly excommunicated them.
Was anyone else put off by the "gioronista's" recitation of the "bromance between the now deposed and deceased Muammar Gaddafi and the now deposed and still very much alive Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi." That alone is a red flag signal that the author in fact sympathizes with the ISIS threat and actually cheers the threat. I found the overall tone a mocking one, akin to the way the NYT pooh-poohs the same threat to Western civilization.
They didn't appreciate Oriana Fallaci nearly enough. She certainly saw this clearly.
Got to give Mark credit for trying but we aren't worthy.
The "panic" appears to consist entirely of concern that they don't have sufficient military to protect Italian assets in Libya. Italy itself is under no threat.
Italy's right to worry about its assets in Libya, but in no way is that our problem.
Revenant wrote: Italy itself is under no threat.
Those who made the threats specifically said that if they couldn't do it their children or grandchildren would conquer Rome. You may pooh-pooh that threat now or even demote the threat to a "wish" or a "desire." Yet I see no credible defense at this point except incredulity.
Put them all to work stomp'n grapes.
""... about an Islamic State just across the sea — but have no idea how to combat the crisis."
Make the sea larger.
For one.
I am Laslo.
Just who was it who first introduced the Crusades into this whole mess? That's right, it was Obama himself just a week or so ago at a Christian prayer breakfast. Now ISIS has eagerly fastened on to it, saddled up its high horse, and run with it.
What a fool!!
pm317 at 8:42-
Hillary would not have been this way? Are you serious? She was part of Obama's administration. She was responsible for what happened in Benghazi and LIED about it. She helped destabilize the ME, arming terrorists to topple Assad, and unleashed these monsters.
Much the same way Bill ignored the growing threat during his terms, she will be worse. She has already proved it. Just ask her dead ambassador and look at all those millions their foundation is raking in from terror sponsoring regimes.
I don't understand the blind devotion to corrupt politicians.
"As ISIS makes inroads into Libya, officials in Rome are panicking... about an Islamic State just across the sea — but have no idea how to combat the crisis."
The real Romans knew how to deal with this kind of shit. Carthage hasn't been much of a problem lately.
The real Romans knew how to deal with this kind of shit. Carthage hasn't been much of a problem lately.
Time for a new Scipio.
The chortle heard round the world: "We came, we saw, he died."
Yes, that would be Hillary at the time of Gadaffi's death.
Has anyone seen or heard from her lately, by the way?
"The Romans knew what to do... time for a new Scipio"
Ironically the radical Muslims may even do it do themselves.
Italy needs aircraft?
I hear we're desperate (once again) to scrap our A-10's. Why not sell them (cheap) to our dear NATO allies instead?
How's that leading from behind working out for Mr. Obama?
The United States armed and trained ISIS through the lawless chaos of Libya. That's why the homosexual Ambassador was killed there, at the behest of the Usurper and HRC (and their handlers).
ISIS is the creation of the United States, for the next round of fear mongering and clampdown control. Get a clue. Didn't you see the line of new Toyota Tundras roll into Iraq? Where did they get those? Where did they get US arms? Why was a Muslim movie blamed? why won't HRC answer any questions? Oh yeah, she hit her head. Why does the Muslim Brotherhood just waltz into the WH and serve as "advisers". ISIS is run right out of Penn. Ave. by the Muslim Usurper and his puppeteers.
I'm all in favor of providing jobs for ISIS members, good long-term positions for every single one of them - as celestial deflorators. If some or all of them take a wrong turn on the way to the new job and somehow end up as infernal defloratees, that's their eternal problem, not ours.
I'm coming to the party late, but some random thoughts.
- This above all is an immigration story. poor Muslims want to resettlement rights in their former Sicily. That's correct. Sicily used to be Muslim. In fact, When a Milanese wants to really insult a Sicilian, he calls them "Baptized Arabs". The Emirate of Sicily lasted till the Vikings (aka Normans) retook it late in the 11th century.
- they were Muslim raids as far north as Rome.
Mark said...
Huh? Explain to me the irony or the retribution.
- add in Sicily (above)
- Constantinople in 1453
- all the Balkans and Greece
- multiple sieges of Vienna, the last in 1683. When Vienna was saved by the Polish King John III Sobieski in the largest cavalry charge in history...
Tanks and planes in Libya and Syria are useless distractions when we have invited the enemy by the boatload into London and Paris. We cannot win the war in the east until we have closed the gates to the barbarians in the west.
So to maintain Rome, in all senses of the word, we must do the following:
1) outlaw Islam
2) expel the Muslims
3) bring to trial those who conspired to destroy western society by importing the poison to dismantle from within.
This will probably also mean
4) Reestablish the church as an active player in the nation-state.
5) Reestablish a national culture.
Those that are squeamish about these things will simply allow the problem to spread further, meaning a much larger death toll in order to accomplish the above.
Or else accept demographic defeat and an unwillingness to protect our culture, and let's go ahead and just comply with the demands.
Yes, this sucks for both the Muslims in Europe who genuinely wish to assimilate into the western culture. But let's face it - continue on the current course, and you're going to betray them anyway, when you surrender in the name of tolerance to the very intolerance that they fled.
" Do they really not comprehend what "Rome" means?
"Rome" might reference Western European crusaders, but in a seventh century context (which seems to be what ISIS' reference) it also might mean Constantinople/Istanbul: historians may call it "Byzantine Empire," but contemporaries called it "Rome."
But Turkey is a NATO member. In a war between "Rome" and an Islamic State Caliphate, which side would it be on?
5,000 troops = 1 modern brigade = 1 ancient Roman legion
61 million = approximately the population of the entire ancient Roman Empire
The Romans employed 3 legions (4 during the conquest), along with many tens of thousands of auxiliary troops, to hold and defend their backward, beyond-the-ends-of-the-earth (as they thought of it) island province of Britain.
People have such a limited idea these days of what the term/concept of ‘crusade’ entailed, and whether it (or they) succeeded or failed in history. Though the name Crusade per se was applied only to eastern Mediterranean crusading efforts which originally targeted the holy land (the Fourth Crusade got diverted), many other somewhat similar expeditions/campaigns also could deserve the appellation.
Sicily was ‘reconquered’ from the Muslims by the feisty Normans (who were involved in ‘crusades,’ with or without the name, all over) via what was basically a crusading spirit. Sardinia (briefly held by Muslims from Spain) got reconquered. Muslims besieged and sacked cities all along the Mediterranean littoral. Beyond that, Muslim colonies established themselves in southern France and southern Italy during the early Middle Ages which terrorized their Christian neighbors; those got extinguished by something very like Crusades in the 10th? century. The ‘Reconquista’ of (most of) Spain was itself accomplished by (basically) the crusading ideal. All those gains have been lasting. Just Sicily and Sardinia are individually geographically larger than the modern state of Israel. Even the crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem in the holy land took a couple of hundred years to fall, however. A lot of history can happen in that time, and did. But originally, strategically — beyond the electrifying nature the idea of the ‘holy land’ held out for Christians of that era — it made military sense to seize the isthmus connecting Africa and Asia, which had the effect of geographically dividing the Muslim world. Much could have been made of that, had history gone another way.
Am I surprised that the Italians lack military capacity? No! (They are a wonderful people, warm, friendly make some of the most beautiful objects on earth.) I don't know where that Roman gene went but it seems to have been lost forever.
As for us: weakness breeds contempt and Obama goes from one show of weakness to the next. Any opponent can only naturally display contempt as he advances to his next objective.
Military capacity has nothing to do with this. ISIS is not going to build a warship and storm Anzio and march onto Rome.
No, they're going to dribble into the country and start beheading and bombing and burning Italians, and maybe have a go at assassinating Catholic leaders, up to and including the Pope. And they'll demoralize from within, when Muslim immigrants riot and traitorous talking heads bemoan that its Italy's 'lack of compassion' that forced these attacks.
Italy could have millions of tanks and fighter planes and they won't matter a dime.
Anyone focusing on traditional military power is missing the point: we are no longer at the stage where we have to man the ramparts and shoot the barbarians charging our gates, we have to go house by house and root them out because we spent the last fifty years leaving the gate open. 4GW baby! Missiles were no use to Lee Rigby, to Rotherham, to Paris; to Copenhagen, to Stockholm; Battalions are no use in London or Madrid. Battleships won't save Rome.
Or, you know, let's talk about what a shame it is that Europe hasn't done a great job of maintaining the Maginot Line.
The Romans were able to destroy Carthage when the Carthaginians gave up their will to fight. Carthage was betrayed from within. Sound familiar?
To paraphrase George Patton, "These bastards want to die for their religion and it's our job to make sure they do."
poker1one said...
The Romans were able to destroy Carthage when the Carthaginians gave up their will to fight. Carthage was betrayed from within.
The Romans were able to destroy Carthage because ultimately they had Cato the Elder keeping them focused on the objective.
Carthago delenda est
Where is the Democrat Cato?
but have no idea how to combat the crisis."
I believe it's called The United States Armed Forces, but I don't know how you say that in Italian.
Wesley Clark on the formation of ISIS--
We started it. Conspiracy theory is Conspiracy FACT:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-18/wesley-clark-isis-got-started-through-funding-our-friends-allies
Where is the Democrat Cato?
As dead as Cato.
The Italians certainly can't do it. They haven't won a War in Centuries.
30yearProf said...
The Italians certainly can't do it. They haven't won a War in Centuries
Well there was the "Second Italo-Ethiopian War"
""... about an Islamic State just across the sea — but have no idea how to combat the crisis."
Oh my god. YOu combat the crisis by engaging in combat. Why is ISIS the only group that seems to understand the value of killing your enemies? If you don't kill them you're going to have an isliam state run by ISIS right across the sea. Good incentive then to make sure that doesn't happen.
ISIS responds to bullets to the brains the same way everyone else does. They die. So, kill them. Before they decide to invade your town.
Mick wrote:
Wesley Clark on the formation of ISIS--
We started it. Conspiracy theory is Conspiracy FACT:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-18/wesley-clark-isis-got-started-through-funding-our-friends-allies
Wesley is a tosh. Just like any man named Wesley would be. However, even if he's right, if we started it, then we should finish it.
jr565,
Exactly! Wesley needs to change his name to "The Dread General Roberts".
call for a crusade. This time we have nukes and they don't
30yearProf:"The Italians certainly can't do it. They haven't won a War in Centuries"
True, however, surely there is no nationality more prepared and capable of organizing the victory party!
To the villa!
The Italians certainly can't do it. They haven't won a War in Centuries.
Italy entered World War I (almost exactly a century ago) on the Allied side, fought hard against Austria-Hungary, and carved off a sizable chunk of the former empire's territory after the war.
But… that was then, and involved territory that Italians regarded as historically, geographically and ethnically (despite speaking German for a long time) Italian. Libya? Not so much.
They haven't won a War in Centuries.
The Eyties defeated the Turks in the 1912 Italo-Turkish War, which is how they ended up with Libya as a colony (until the Brits relieved them of it in 1940) and they conquered Abyssinia in 1935-6 (until the Brits relieved them of *it* in 1941).
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