And I love this catch-all category "Leisure/entertainment":
Other leisure time can encompass a wide range of activities but most commonly consist of the categories known as relaxing/thinking, reading for pleasure and surfing the Internet.Thinking, reading, and "surfing" the internet are leisure/entertainment? Are we really still saying "surfing" the internet? It seems to me that the internet is a medium for reading and writing and for looking at pictures and playing games. It hardly matters whether the movies and games you're playing are on the internet or the television or some other device. Anyway, I love the idea that there are some people who, keeping track of how the spent the hours of the day, allotted some time for simply thinking. (50 years ago, LBJ said: "The Great Society is a place where... leisure is a welcome chance to... reflect....")
I thought this was the most interesting failure to understand what people without jobs do:
A few of our nonworking people, somewhat confusingly, even reported spending a good amount of time working. These answers could mean that some people don’t think of informal work, such as babysitting or lawn-mowing, as employment. Or the answers could simply reflect the fact that large surveys typically contain a small number of unusual answers, because not everyone responds to a survey accurately.The Times seems to be assuming that the word "work" means work for pay and thus "employment," even though "employment," broadly, includes anything a person does and "work," broadly, includes anything you do for the purpose of accomplishing something. The survey has a specific category for housework, so it's not hard to imagine non-house-related tasks people do. Yard work is an obvious example. The non-job work that women tend to do — housework and caring for others — has 2 specific categories. (Why not one, since you often do these 2 things together while in the home?) The things men tend to do get dropped into the puzzling category "work." There's yard work, working on cars and electronics and inventions, woodworking, volunteer working out in the community, and fussing over investments. There are also all the artists and musicians and writers — paging Nancy Pelosi — who might have an idea of selling something at some point but don't have jobs. In fact, I would think that one of the main reasons not to have a job is so that you can get a tremendous amount of your own work done.
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With our tax code being the way it is, it's clear the federal government wants us to work for someone else, usually a faceless entity, rather than ourself. All the benefits flow in the direction of an employer-employee relationship. The exemption for employer-provided health benefits is an obvious example. Another is the self-employment tax.
From the government's perspective, we should all be dutiful workers serving a master. Well, except those of us who are lucky enough to be the master.
I mean, what is wrong with these people who choose not to "work"? There's dignity in wearing uncomfortable clothes and sitting in front of a computer screen, at th pleasure of someone else.
Anyway, the NYT stats and graphics are basically useless. There are so many different reasons people are not "working." It really doesn't interest me much what retirees, stay at home moms/dads and students are doing with their free time.
It's the literally unemployed and the able-bodied discouraged workers who interest me.
By including ALL "nonemployed" people, is the NYT "nudging" those stay at homes who make the perfectly rational choice that their time is best spent tending to the house, the children, etc.? Am I the only one who detects that subtle bigotry?
I would say it's an example of microaggression, if I knew what that word meant.
I'd like to see a Time Use Survey of the people who do Time Use Surveys for a living.
My Mom was a nurse. She worked days for the county health department and I stayed with my Aunt Bernice. Aunt Bernice did housework all day and did childcare at the same time. Would she count double duty?
There seems to be absolutely no breakout of "single men with children" vs. "single women with children" vs. "married men with working spouse" vs. "married woman with working spouse", etc.
Given that single women are more likely to have minor children and married women with minor children are more likely to be nonemployed (HAH!), the broad comparison of men to women is completely useless.
I did some searches:
"father" - 0 hits
"mother" - 0 hits
"wife" - 0 hits
"spouse" - 0 hits
"husband" - 1 hit ("Emily ... is now raising her 15-year-old son alone after the death of her husband")
"parent" - 1 hit ("This category also includes those caring for parents or others")
"children - 2 hits ("Nearly all of the women in this group have children" / "Catherine, Sara and Tammy do not have any children under 18")
How can you talk intelligently about "nonworking" adults between the ages of 25 and 54 and not break out those that have children and those that don't?
As for working while not employed-- I can see people running home businesses or very part time checking that box.
I taught fitness classes when my children were little. I considered myself not really employed, but I guess it was part time. But very part time, as in just a couple hours a week.
Then there are the people who sell mostly from home, like Stella and Dot, Melaluca, Tupperware, Pampered Chef....
I think some of these people without jobs are criminals. That's work. Not very pleasant work either.
As for working while not employed-- I can see people running home businesses or very part time checking that box.
Etsy stores? Probably people who were just working on 'stuff' they don't consider housework.
Would playing an instrument be included as leisure or other?
"Graphic depictions of what "nonemployed" males and females do all day, hour by hour."
When I read "Graphic depictions" I assumed photos of a sexual nature were involved. Disappointed.
I am Laslo.
Is this survey including stay-at-home parents with what most people think of when we think of unemployed? The article shifts between unemployed and nonemployed, and I don't think it was being done intentionally with a knowledge that those two words mean different things.
I think more and more men will be staying home taking care of children as women excel in the kind of jobs that are available in America these days.
Men should think about how to do that well — how to be a good man doing that. I recommend a strong component of high quality cooking, efficient cleaning and ordering of the house, sharp budgeting and tending to family finances, and enjoyable physical fitness activities for himself and the children together.
We need better teamwork, with the good of the family dominating. Not everybody out there working for others.
"When I read "Graphic depictions" I assumed photos of a sexual nature were involved. Disappointed."
Yeah, I did that on purpose.
Not very pleasant work either.
Depends. Are they getting away with it?
The dominatrix strikes again!
Men should think about how to do that well — how to be a good man doing that. I recommend a strong component of high quality cooking, efficient cleaning and ordering of the house, sharp budgeting and tending to family finances, and enjoyable physical fitness activities for himself and the children together
Agree 100% I don't think the problem is with men as much as it is with women recognizing the value of such men. It just goes against their biological programming, IMHO.
Does participating at a brunch protest constitute work, or leisure?
Taking It To The Man is a full-time job, but usually self-employed.
I am Laslo.
"Men should think about how to do that well — how to be a good man doing that. I recommend a strong component of high quality cooking, efficient cleaning and ordering of the house, sharp budgeting and tending to family finances, and enjoyable physical fitness activities for himself and the children together."
shorter description: 'women's work.'
I am Laslo.
"Aunt Bernice did housework all day and did childcare at the same time. Would she count double duty?"
She's female, so yes. Had you been left with 'Uncle Bernie' instead, he would have been relaxing at home with his hobbies and playing with his nephew.
Actually I thought being a criminal was akin to being "self-employed" You set your own hours, but only get paid when you work. As any bureaucrat can tell you, producing a useful good or service at the end of the day is not a requirement.
Really, perhaps we look at this crime thing all wrong... These are the final-frontier entrepreneurs, Who take the risks and reap the big rewards outside the stultifying grip of government regulation!
Three cheers for the (non-government) thieves!
Huzzah! X3!
Anything that relies on "self-reporting" is bullshit. End of story.
Ann Althouse said...
I think some of these people without jobs are criminals. That's work. Not very pleasant work either.
Who whom.
Useless graph unless broken down by Race.
I'm trying to think how I would report some of my use time.
I play a game in the evening with people. Would I count that as leisure or socializing? What about when I play different music over the game's normal soundtrack? What about when I play music while working out?
There's potentially interesting data here, but I'm not sure how to parse it.
"I think more and more men will be staying home taking care of children as women excel in the kind of jobs that are available in America these days."
A smooth role reversal may not be the way it goes. Men need an identity that garners both self-respect and the respect of their male peers, not to mention the respect of their mate. Deprived of this, men are likely to become alcoholics, drug addicts and criminals, rather loyal house husbands.
Look at what has happened in communities where the women are the defacto breadwinner via the welfare state.
Which category includes Sitting around smoking weed? Personal care?
I suspect it's a bit underreported.
Shanna- exactly. Etsy, selling things on Ebay, selling at craft fairs. All hard to categorize.
And it doesn't break out volunteer work. That could be caring for others, but I know when I volunteered a lot of it was also solitary work, like doing Excel sheets and typing up minutes.
If a crackwhore gives a blowjob without expecting payment is that leisure, or is that job-skills training?
I am Laslo.
"Nonemployed" puts the "unemployed" together with all the other people who don't have jobs.
That usage nicely includes the labor utilization rate, which the Federal unemployment rate excludes so as to look better than reality. And the New York Times and its ilk ignore for the same reason, trying to prop up the Administration.
Researcher Assistant:
"Hey, here's a crack whore who says she gave a blowjob with expecting payment. What category do put that in?"
Researcher:
"Not everyone responds to a survey accurately."
As an elder in the sport of surfing let me be unequivocal in stating that as a group we surfers have always resented our verb being taken from us.
Ive always thought that one should be skeptical of self-reporting surveys like this one
Not becaue people "lie". But because they often have a distorted view of what they do. Forinstance ive hadmany friends tell me that they had been "Working 18 hours all this week".And ive seen those same people in the local bar at 5pm all week long. People tend to exaggerate
And they often give what they think is the "correct" answer.
Like when a poll asks if a person will be willing to pay more for a product if its Made in USA or leads to farm workers getting a pay raise, of course everyone says yes.But in reality, most would just end up buying a cheaper product or brand
A smooth role reversal may not be the way it goes. Men need an identity that garners both self-respect and the respect of their male peers, not to mention the respect of their mate.
Hogamous Higamous, men are polygamous, Higamous Hogamamous, women are hypergamous.
The two fit together perfectly. Just leaving some men out, unfortunately for them, but evolution is a harsh mistress. In the Arab world, they give these men guns and set them to work destroying things. I am not sure how that model bodes for the US.
But you are right, both the man and the woman have basic needs that are met with a male breadwinner. Not every man, or every woman, but in the aggregate.
Hypergamy of women is the unaccounted economic driver that leads to failures of such economic systems as communism. Are you going to leave the matter of attracting a mate purely up to natural sex appeal? Are the men without it just going to go off an die? Or are they going to find some way to improve their lot above their comrades and attract women?
There are always going to be definitional problems, how to categorize this or that activity when the different people doing it would themselves categoriz eit differently.
But a "study" like this is hopeless when the author (analyst) doesn't even understand that unemployed people often have income as a result of work--it's just too little and too undependable to count as employment.
As far as Ms Althouse's comment about men staying home: Many already do
But very few that I know are 100% househusbands.Most telecommute to work.Some have wives that can also telecommute c ouple of days a week. So they share child rearing.
And I have a couple of friends that used to work construction, whose wives far outearned them.So in order to avoid the high cost of day care the husbands stay at home with the kids.But still do construction "side jobs" when there wife is at homein the evening or weekend
Ive never really met any man that was a 100% househusband.Although im sure that one or two exist.but I doubt it will become widespread.Its not just about man's traditional role.Its also because most couples need two incomes.
And women that do earn a lot of money as a ceo,ect tend to be the type that are also attracted to ambitious men as well.
So I think that those types of women are actually the least likely to have a stay -at-home husband.Especaily since they can afford day care
I think it will be more common in middle class and working class families
I thought this was the most interesting failure to understand what people without jobs do:
In fact, I would think that one of the main reasons not to have a job is so that you can get a tremendous amount of your own work done.
I agree that you almost never find guys who are 100% house husbands (and caregivers). There is this built-in assumption that we (males) are defined by our jobs, or something like that. One neighbor, who was rated to have the best tan at the pool, was an author, who wrote stuff for the govt on occasion. He was married to a physician, who probably made 95% of the couple's income. I did it for the first couple years that my kid was alive, and worked at learning to be a patent atty in my spare time (my mentor had too much work for one, but not enough for two). My identity was not as a house husband and primary care giver, but as attorney working to learn patent law.
And now, for the inevitable post about what the (unlinkable) OED says about the word "graphic". I thought you were using graphic in the way that, e.g., FX uses it when it warns viewers that the show Justified contains "graphic violence".
"A few of our nonworking people, somewhat confusingly, even reported spending a good amount of time working."
Very many "unemployed" men work off the books. A huge percentage of construction/landscaping and other contract cleaning type work is cash business.
They are working, but the NYT and the Government considers them unemployed because they aren't paying payroll taxes.
Men should think about how to do that well — how to be a good man doing that. I recommend a strong component of high quality cooking, efficient cleaning and ordering of the house, sharp budgeting and tending to family finances, and enjoyable physical fitness activities for himself and the children together.
In other words stuff that men are already doing.
Nursing right now and reading althouse=caring for others, but engaging in leisure activity without guilt.
I don't turn on the TV until after the kids go to bed for the night, but I know some SAHMs watch a lot of TV. I can't do it. My kids make enough noise; I don't want TV adding to it.
I don't think the problem is with men as much as it is with women recognizing the value of such men
Yep, most women will end up redoing all the chores, because "he missed a spot." If my spouse ever did that to me....
Birches said...
"I don't think the problem is with men as much as it is with women recognizing the value of such men
Yep, most women will end up redoing all the chores, because "he missed a spot." If my spouse ever did that to me...."
I will do a lot of the bulk work like washing the dishes and sometimes vacuuming, especially the stairs. But I wont bother folding clothes/putting them away or wiping everything down or mopping. Anything I put away will get put in the right place or refolded or wiped down again.
Also if I do a certain amount everyone is happy. If I do it all it doesn't change how much she does. We just end up rearranging the furniture in one of the rooms or something similar.
This "hypergamy" stuff is interesting. It's old fashioned, and -- I believe -- low class. But fine for the women who do that and the men who feel good about what they can get on that game.
I'm talking about the future and picturing new dynamics.
I could write a book on this topic to try to help people through the next phase.
Does anyone care?
"I could write a book on this topic to try to help people through the next phase.
Does anyone care?"
I, for one, await the Althouse Dianetics.
I am Laslo.
Write the book regardless of whether anyone cares if it is important to do so.
Have people evaluate the book with your ideas in full, rather than the idea of the book.
My idea for the "next phase" is Helter Skelter in 2015. Probably not going to write the book.
I know you can do better.
I am Laslo.
for the men, a significant % of the "Leisure/entertainment" time is spent beating off. It really should be its own category.
Speaking of which, Althouse, we'd most like the complete details of your sex life.
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