Althouse: "Firebombing at German paper that ran Charlie Hebdo cartoons."

১১ জানুয়ারী, ২০১৫

"Firebombing at German paper that ran Charlie Hebdo cartoons."

"Rocks and then a burning object were thrown through the window.... Two rooms on lower floors were damaged but the fire was put out quickly."

৯৪টি মন্তব্য:

David বলেছেন...: Today at Dartblog from proprietor Joseph Asch:

In France everyone seems to understand that when the police storm a building where hostages are being held, the terrorists will die. We have seen that conduct before. The French don’t want to spend court time and effort — and give violent people publicity — when summary justice is possible. Add to that set of beliefs the attitude of the police towards the Charlie Hebdo jihadistes and the terrorist who took hostages in the kosher market. Both had killed police officers. Given that France has no death penalty, the police know that anyone arrested in these situations, unlike their slain fellow officers, will live a long life, albeit in prison. They make a logical calculation, and dispense commensurate justice.

Asch lives in Paris.; ১১/১/১৫, ১১:২৯ AM
pm317 বলেছেন...: So Obama is going to do a dog and pony show about what happened in Paris.. according to Drudge. Will he feature the Egypt president prominently? I am not holding my breath. Obama's administration is all about appearances but no results; not competent enough to produce results, anyway.; ১১/১/১৫, ১১:৩৫ AM
Danno বলেছেন...: I saw an earlier version of this story on MyYahoo today, and it looks like the jihadists are "asking for" Europe to move to less multiculturalism as some of the European countries elect far right political parties in response. Should be interesting!; ১১/১/১৫, ১১:৩৬ AM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: German police are the same way. When I was living there, we had a saying:

"The Germans may not have law, But they will have order!"

When a German cop makes a traffic stop, they ask politely for you to get out of the auto. 5 seconds later, if you have not started getting out, a baton is coming in the window, and you'll leave the auto via the window...; ১১/১/১৫, ১১:৪০ AM
pm317 বলেছেন...: Fuck, I know why that Obama headline on Drudge.. just look at the twitter pics of Paris rally! OMG.. I certainly hope some resolution will come out of this, but US will not be leading it. A huge opportunity missed for the US to be seen as a rational and compassionate leader of the world countries.

Paris rally; ১১/১/১৫, ১১:৪১ AM
YoungHegelian বলেছেন...: @pm317,

A huge opportunity missed for the US to be seen as a rational and compassionate leader of the world countries.

Or, to be seen as, you know, a country that values rights of free expression so highly that they have been codified in our foundational document since the beginning? Naaah, we couldn't have that......; ১১/১/১৫, ১১:৪৬ AM
rhhardin বলেছেন...: A guy long ago rebuilding a Sea-Bee (amphibious airplane) put a large cardboard box next to it, with the magic marker sign "Questions, suggestions, advice, speak into box."

Newspapers need something like that outside for bombers.; ১১/১/১৫, ১১:৪৮ AM
pm317 বলেছেন...: Obama administration is transparent alright, transparently lame.; ১১/১/১৫, ১১:৫২ AM
pm317 বলেছেন...: @YoungHegelian

Agree, that is what I kind of implied by saying 'rational'..

you know, the take charge country on behalf of others on the side of justice and what is right..; ১১/১/১৫, ১১:৫৫ AM
pm317 বলেছেন...: YoungHegelian said...

and not in the golden age of that golden child, Obama..they are leading from behind. What a joke Obama and his minions have made this country to be.; ১১/১/১৫, ১১:৫৭ AM
Original Mike বলেছেন...: This keeps up and ARM is going to run out of candles.; ১১/১/১৫, ১২:০২ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: The Germans colonized Algeria too? Who knew?; ১১/১/১৫, ১২:১৪ PM
n.n বলেছেন...: Stupid. They had the high moral ground. Hebdo was a liberal hypocrite. He offered boundless material to mock his church and profits (i.e. money, sex, ego, convenience). All they had to do was publish a magazine depicting Hebdo decapitating and dismembering captive, wholly innocent human beings, and the liberal church would have been apoplectic. When a liberal mocks your prophet, turn around and mock his profits. Opportunity lost.; ১১/১/১৫, ১২:১৮ PM
n.n বলেছেন...: There is a common thread here, but it's not national or racial. It is religious. The oldest human religion: liberalism or libertinism. Areligious (i.e. immoral or amoral), really. The Muslims are stupid for taking the bait. When they clearly should have responded in kind and exposed Hebdo's church. Opportunity lost.; ১১/১/১৫, ১২:২৩ PM
pm317 বলেছেন...: remember Asterix? Maybe not.. don't know if Americans are familiar with this duo.; ১১/১/১৫, ১২:২৫ PM
pm317 বলেছেন...: here is the right link for Asterix duo; ১১/১/১৫, ১২:৩২ PM
AReasonableMan বলেছেন...: The Drill SGT said...
When a German cop makes a traffic stop, they ask politely for you to get out of the auto. 5 seconds later, if you have not started getting out, a baton is coming in the window, and you'll leave the auto via the window...

It is desperately sad that you quote this approvingly.; ১১/১/১৫, ১২:৩৭ PM
AReasonableMan বলেছেন...: Paul Zrimsek said...
The Germans colonized Algeria too? Who knew?

From a two time Bush voter who dragged us into a quagmire in Iraq. Shia? Sunni? What's it matter?; ১১/১/১৫, ১২:৩৮ PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan বলেছেন...: Next step for the French, invade some random country, completely unrelated to the attack, and call everyone who says it's a bad idea a fucking coward.; ১১/১/১৫, ১২:৪৬ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: There is a common thread here, but it's not national or racial. It is religious.

Exactly. There may have been a time and place when organized religion served a purpose but now it only seems to bring death and destruction. Everything from blowing up businesses to driving drunk and doing a hit & run. And lets not forget about the child molesters and the "God Hates Fags".

Organized religion is a crock. Everyone should take the advice of Jesus and worship in a private and respectful manner.; ১১/১/১৫, ১২:৫২ PM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent বলেছেন...: "Organized religion is a crock. Everyone should take the advice of Jesus and worship in a private and respectful manner."

MF writes something I actually agree with. I'd run out and get a lottery ticket but I'm afraid of the lightning strike.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:০১ PM
pm317 বলেছেন...: ARM, I completely agree that what Bush did was idiotic (but many supported his actions -- even my husband, a Democrat, was on board that after 9/11 we should whack somebody and Saddam was it). Hopefully, the French being the pacifists they are, hopefully they take this opportunity to bring all countries together in addressing this world problem.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:০২ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: AReasonableMan said...
It is desperately sad that you quote this approvingly.

I think you mistake the context. It was the reality for my troops in Germany and my advice to them resembled my behavior when I get stopped. I am polite to police and keep my hands on the wheel.

reality is not approval, just reality.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:০৭ PM
Humperdink বলেছেন...: Madisonfella said: "Everyone should take the advice of Jesus and worship in a private and respectful manner."

I would encourage you to continue your study of what Jesus said when He was on this earth (seriously).; ১১/১/১৫, ১:০৯ PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan বলেছেন...: pm317 said...
even my husband, a Democrat, was on board that after 9/11 we should whack somebody and Saddam was it).

Democrat politicians were no profiles in courage at the time. Hillary would have been the first female US president if she had had the nous to resist the tide.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:১৪ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: From a two time Bush voter who dragged us into a quagmire in Iraq.

One-time bush voter, actually (2004). But I could be a 10-time Bush voter and it wouldn't make your colonial blowback theory any less full of shit. The sooner you admit it and quit saying "Squirrel!", the less ridiculous you'll look.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:১৫ PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan বলেছেন...: The Drill SGT said...
reality is not approval, just reality.

I understand now.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:১৬ PM
pm317 বলেছেন...: Hillary would have been the first female US president if she had had the nous to resist the tide.

Yeah, you/they all settled for the guy who faked his anti-war speech.. I would laugh if it was not so serious.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:২৬ PM
pm317 বলেছেন...: and who has been faking ever since on multiple fronts..; ১১/১/১৫, ১:২৭ PM
richard mcenroe বলেছেন...: Yes, Bush was such an idiot that the Democrats only anticipated him by calling for Saddam's ouster two years before Bush was elected...; ১১/১/১৫, ১:২৯ PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan বলেছেন...: Paul Zrimsek said...
One-time bush voter, actually (2004).

So you decided after the Iraq war and the property bubble that he was doing such a bang up job that he deserved another term. And this improves your credentials for good judgement how exactly?

To ignore the role of long standing enmities between colonialists and the colonized is just stupid. The British are still hated across half the planet. A goodly fraction of Australians even hate the Brits. They mightn't bomb them but they wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire either.

The US Irish funded a terrorist campaign against Britain that killed 1,823 people. Was this because of some fundamental flaw in Catholicism?

I'm not making any excuses for Muslims, or Catholics, but these conflicts have deep roots that extend beyond just religion.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:৩২ PM
richard mcenroe বলেছেন...: The French are not pacifists at all when it comes to their own interests. Who sank the Rainbow Warrior? Who orchestrated the massacres in Rwanda?; ১১/১/১৫, ১:৩৩ PM
richard mcenroe বলেছেন...: এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।; ১১/১/১৫, ১:৩৩ PM
richard mcenroe বলেছেন...: এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।; ১১/১/১৫, ১:৩৩ PM
Original Mike বলেছেন...: "the property bubble"

Oh, for Christ sake.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:৪০ PM
Drago বলেছেন...: It is extremely important to ARM and the rest of the left that no attention be focused on the murders of others by islamists, ever, unless that focus is to blame non-muslims.

Nothing has changed from the decades the left spent supporting and justifying every act by any and all communist totalitarian nations.

The common thread: hatred of the West and its institutions and desire to burn it all down.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:৪২ PM
furious_a বলেছেন...: ARM still blowing on his one-note whistle telling French Jews not to panic because it's not a war and they're targeting Parisian Jews because of French colonialism.

Or something.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:৪২ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: I would encourage you to continue your study of what Jesus said when He was on this earth (seriously).

Good advice, for everybody.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:৪৩ PM
Drago বলেছেন...: ARM: "I'm not making any excuses for muslims...."

You have done nothing but for the last several days.

Oh, btw I think the latest leftist approved labeling of islamofascist murderers is "activists".; ১১/১/১৫, ১:৪৪ PM
pm317 বলেছেন...: The Left and Obama and his many minions are fucking stupid and incompetent. Let us just move on and it is time to leave them behind and let the fuckers think they are leading from behind.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:৪৭ PM
furious_a বলেছেন...: ARM's bete noir nails ARM's ilk like JFK nailed the typing pool:

You have a pathological need to change the subject. People like Bates can’t help themselves. They have to get the conversation back to a place where they are comfortable talking about their preferred enemies and demons, even if he has to haul a 30-year-old 600 pound red herring into the studio to do it.

RTWT.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:৫০ PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan বলেছেন...: furious_a quotes noted plagiarist.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:৫৫ PM
furious_a বলেছেন...: Yank ARM's chain like one of the overhead eurotoilets. ARM runs and tells mommy.; ১১/১/১৫, ১:৫৯ PM
Drago বলেছেন...: ARM: "....noted plagiarist."

What, he quoted Joe Biden?; ১১/১/১৫, ২:০১ PM
furious_a বলেছেন...: What, he quoted Joe Biden?

"Literally".; ১১/১/১৫, ২:০৪ PM
Just asking questions (Jaq) বলেছেন...: The Germans colonized Algeria too? Who knew?

Well, the Germans lost WWI, so they are responsible for the breakup of the Ottoman Empire.; ১১/১/১৫, ২:০৫ PM
Just asking questions (Jaq) বলেছেন...: The proper thing for us to do, obviously, is to recognize our historical sins and all convert to Islam, take down our democratic institutions, and abandon our Western values.

When we have done this, we will be safe.; ১১/১/১৫, ২:০৮ PM
Drago বলেছেন...: Is it a micro aggression against muslims if a westerner doesnt hold perfectly still while having his or head sawed off?

If, while having his or her head sawed off by a muslim "activist", a westerner inadvertantly curses allah, is the muslim justified in slowing the procedure down to prolong the agony?; ১১/১/১৫, ২:১৫ PM
Drago বলেছেন...: What is the best way to make a beheader of infidels feel comfortable about being a muslim in a western nation?

We certainly dont want to make these muslims feel as though we are islamophobic after all.; ১১/১/১৫, ২:১৭ PM
Drago বলেছেন...: I really cant figure out why the deli hostage taker didn't grab a few kids as human shields? That's a sure fire tactic for garnering additional western leftist support.

Sorry. I should not have said "hostage taker". "Colonially oppressed activist" would have been more appropriate.; ১১/১/১৫, ২:২৭ PM
Rusty বলেছেন...: 3 million people showed up for the silent march in Paris from Place Republic. to Place de Nacional.
I think Europe is getting tired of Islam.; ১১/১/১৫, ২:৩০ PM
n.n বলেছেন...: এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।; ১১/১/১৫, ২:৩৮ PM
n.n বলেছেন...: So, how long before we bomb France, and now Germany, in order to establish independent Islamic states?

The liberal Church has wrought what it sought. Hebdo, and now others, are victims of the Church's DRAT (Displace, Replace, Abort, and Tax) policy. In their enthusiastic rush to marginalize the native competition, they, or at least low order Church members (e.g. Hebdo) and native infidels, have become post-birth collateral damage. The immigrants, both legal and illegal, have diverse interests, which may or may not include assimilation and integration.

Europe is not the first, but it is certainly the most obvious example of a canary flying through a solar oven or windmill blender. Perhaps they thought establishment of Kosovo would be sufficient collateral to purchase their security. They are all Serbians now.; ১১/১/১৫, ২:৪১ PM
Drago বলেছেন...: Rusty, 3 million people did march in Paris today to show the world they would not be cowed by the events of this week.

Naturally, as expected, obama and his entire administration avoided participating in this march.

Cant be seen opposing muslims.

After all, there is no sweeter sound than the muslim call to prayer! Why, just ask the jews in Paris! They will tell you.....if you can still find any.; ১১/১/১৫, ২:৫১ PM
Rocco বলেছেন...: ARM said:
"The US Irish funded a terrorist campaign against Britain that killed 1,823 people. Was this because of some fundamental flaw in Catholicism?"

Yea, I remember those "Catholic" Irish terrorists always yelling "Hail Mary" whenever they would strike. I also remember some talk of restoring Papal States, etc.

What a silly argument. A more sensible analysis is that the Irish terrorists were strict grammarians. If you were taken captive by them, how you pronounced the letter "H" determined if you were "us" or "them".; ১১/১/১৫, ২:৫১ PM
n.n বলেছেন...: madisonfella:

The state established church in Western states, with few exceptions, is atheistic (i.e. a philosophy with a single affirmative statement outside of the scientific domain or article of faith) and libertine (i.e. immoral or amoral, including pro-choice or selective).

Civilized society, especially in diverse, high-density population centers, cannot exist without a Church or organized religion (i.e. moral philosophy), typically established by the "secular" government.

As for faith, there are very few people who actively limit their perception to the scientific domain. Judeo-Christian faith is one of the few that promotes separation of faith and reality. Agnostic is another.; ১১/১/১৫, ২:৫৮ PM
n.n বলেছেন...: richard mcenroe:

Clinton diddled, while 9/11 smoldered.

See, this is how the French, and now German, terrorists should responded to Hebdo's propaganda: in kind. There was no need for post-birth abortions.; ১১/১/১৫, ৩:০১ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: Drago said...
Rusty, 3 million people did march in Paris today to show the world they would not be cowed by the events of this week.

A zillion world leaders in the front rank, and the US was MIA...; ১১/১/১৫, ৩:১১ PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan বলেছেন...: Rocco said...
Yea, I remember those "Catholic" Irish terrorists

So they were really "Anglicans"? Nonsense.

The Provisional IRA defined its role as "defenders of the Catholic community".; ১১/১/১৫, ৩:১৫ PM
Big Mike বলেছেন...: Ah, ARM's back to being stupid. The world has returned to its orbit.

Does it matter that the French were beastly in their treatment of their former colonies in Africa? Not one bit. That was then, this is now. If people are going to be forgiven for using weapons to settle old scores, where do we stop? 50 years ago? 100? Can I go killing Turks because of the siege of Vienna?

Does it matter that Charlie Hebdo was blaspheming Islam? Nope. Not a bit. If you're going to live someplace that has freedom of speech and freedom of the press, either suck it up or move.; ১১/১/১৫, ৩:১৭ PM
Rusty বলেছেন...: Sarge. I'm beginning think the administrations heart isn't in it.; ১১/১/১৫, ৩:১৭ PM
Just asking questions (Jaq) বলেছেন...: Bush Bush Bush! When will he ever leave office?; ১১/১/১৫, ৩:১৮ PM
Big Mike বলেছেন...: @Drill SGT, Obama would have gone, but nobody told him about this place.; ১১/১/১৫, ৩:২৩ PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan বলেছেন...: The Drill SGT said...
A zillion world leaders in the front rank, and the US was MIA...

Did the cheese-eating surrender monkeys invite us?; ১১/১/১৫, ৩:২৬ PM
Drago বলেছেন...: ARM is still pretending that the French haven't already surrendered hundreds of areas to sharia compliance within the heart of France.

That's precisely the sort of self-imposed ignorance required to buy in and remain a dedicated leftist.; ১১/১/১৫, ৩:৩২ PM
Drago বলেছেন...: Should we take a few moments at this point to discuss the French "arrangements" with the PLO which was intended as payoffs to keep the islamic terrorists from attacking french owned assets.

Naturally the PLO was aligned with all your standard run of the mill leftwing terror groups.

Nothing has changed. On the contrary.; ১১/১/১৫, ৩:৩৯ PM
chickelit বলেছেন...: Working theory: Our President snubs all ex-colonial nations; it's in his DNA.; ১১/১/১৫, ৩:৫৬ PM
Michael K বলেছেন...: "reality is not approval, just reality."

ARM does not do reality. Fantasy is more in his line.; ১১/১/১৫, ৪:০৫ PM
furious_a বলেছেন...: A zillion world leaders in the front rank, and the US was MIA...

President Three-Putt had a tee-time conflict.; ১১/১/১৫, ৪:০৬ PM
Just asking questions (Jaq) বলেছেন...: Hey, let's talk about how the French convinced Saddam he didn't have to leave, that they would veto any action at the UN in consideration for contracts for something like 25% of Iraq's reserves.

If France hadn't played those kinds of venal games, the Iraq war didn't need have happened.

But I know it is so much more fun to shout stupid slogans now that so many years have passed that the facts are no longer easily at the ready.

Bush Bush Bush! It's all you got.; ১১/১/১৫, ৪:০৭ PM
Michael K বলেছেন...: "The US Irish funded a terrorist campaign against Britain that killed 1,823 people. Was this because of some fundamental flaw in Catholicism?"

Do you even know the history of Northern Ireland and William ? One of the better and more readable accounts is Leon Uris' book Trinity . I suggest you read it before making a fool of yourself.; ১১/১/১৫, ৪:০৮ PM
pm317 বলেছেন...: Obama's or a meaningful representative for his administration being MIA today at the Paris march has been noted far and wide.; ১১/১/১৫, ৪:০৮ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: furious_a said...
A zillion world leaders in the front rank, and the US was MIA...

President Three-Putt had a tee-time conflict.

Holder went to Paris to do US Sunday Talk shows, but could not make the march...; ১১/১/১৫, ৪:১০ PM
Just asking questions (Jaq) বলেছেন...: As I understand it, expecting further attacks from Islamists is a "phobia."

Since a phobia is an irrational fear, the attacks in Germany didn't happen. Next week's or next month's attack won't happen either.

And if it does, the blowback against the umma will be the largest problem.; ১১/১/১৫, ৪:১১ PM
furious_a বলেছেন...: "EUROPE'S MUSLIMS FEAR BACKLASH FROM NEXT WEEK'S
MARKET BOMBINGS."; ১১/১/১৫, ৪:২৬ PM
furious_a বলেছেন...: Holder went to Paris to do US Sunday Talk shows, but could not make the march...

The Obama Administration -- leading from the Green Room.; ১১/১/১৫, ৪:২৯ PM
Drago বলেছেন...: I fully expect a pointed #sadface campaign from the obama admin.; ১১/১/১৫, ৪:৩৭ PM
Alex বলেছেন...: tim - the 1.5 million people who turned out to protest in Paris are obviously Islamophobes.; ১১/১/১৫, ৪:৪১ PM
Drago বলেছেন...: I also fully expect additional pressure to be applied to Israel by obama after this latest islamic atrocity.; ১১/১/১৫, ৪:৪১ PM
chickelit বলেছেন...: The Drill SGT said...

Holder went to Paris to do US Sunday Talk shows, but could not make the march...

Holder should be frogmarched to the plane and back home.; ১১/১/১৫, ৫:১৯ PM
David বলেছেন...: Rusty said...
3 million people showed up for the silent march in Paris from Place Republic. to Place de Nacional.
I think Europe is getting tired of Islam.

Too late. Islam R Us in Europe now. Too late to throw them out. Especially since under French and British law a large percentage of them are citizens for various reasons.; ১১/১/১৫, ৫:৪২ PM
Just asking questions (Jaq) বলেছেন...: This is the same as Stalin putting ethnic Russians all over Eastern Europe.

It is one of those power moves that nobody can really counter, at least not in a civilized way.; ১১/১/১৫, ৬:০৪ PM
jr565 বলেছেন...: AReasonableMan wrote:
"Next step for the French, invade some random country, completely unrelated to the attack, and call everyone who says it's a bad idea a fucking coward."

NOt completely unrelated to the attack and not a random country. History didn't start the day Bush took office jackass.
Prior to Bush we passed the Iraq Liberation Act and bombed Iraq for their WMD production AND had it in place that National policy was for a regime change.
The links to Al Qaeda, and certainly terrorism were already in place prior to Bush ever setting foot in office. And Clinton made those links repeatedly.
For example, Operation Desert Fox:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Iraq_(1998)

"Clinton administration officials said the aim of the mission was to "degrade" Iraq's ability to manufacture and use weapons of mass destruction, not to eliminate it. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was asked about the distinction while the operation was going on:[6]
"I don't think we're pretending that we can get everything, so this is - I think - we are being very honest about what our ability is. We are lessening, degrading his ability to use this. The weapons of mass destruction are the threat of the future. I think the president explained very clearly to the American people that this is the threat of the 21st century. [. . .] [W]hat it means is that we know we can't get everything, but degrading is the right word."

And don't forget regime change:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Liberation_Act

""The Congress urges the President to call upon the United Nations to establish an international criminal tribunal for the purpose of indicting, prosecuting, and imprisoning Saddam Hussein and other Iraqi officials who are responsible for crimes against humanity, genocide, and other criminal violations of international law."

A generalized statement of policy toward the post-Hussein Iraq was also set forth stating, "It is the sense of the Congress that once the Saddam Hussein regime is removed from power in Iraq, the United States should support Iraq's transition to democracy by providing immediate and substantial humanitarian assistance to the Iraqi people, by providing democracy transition assistance to Iraqi parties and movements with democratic goals, and by convening Iraq's foreign creditors to develop a multilateral response to Iraq's foreign debt incurred by Saddam Hussein's regime."

After Operation Desert Fox all inspectors were removed. And there was no evidence that Iraq suddenly started complying. So we have a containment that is failing dealing with a threat that constitutes the greatest of the 21st century and we've just bombed them and passed a law calling for regime change.

And then 9/11 happens. THe threat of course was that Al Qaeda was looking for WMDs and Iraq was looking to offload them. It was imperative not to let those two threats overlap.
Since regime change was on the docket anyway, the question simply became "can we get regime change absent an invasion". And the answer was no.
Take your revisionistic history and shove it.; ১১/১/১৫, ৬:১৯ PM
jr565 বলেছেন...: As for the quagmire question, Iraq had some rocky months. But it was no quagmire. or if it was a quagmire it was one we could whether. That's what happens when Al Qaeda tries to do an all out assault on our troops. A lot of violence ensues. But by the same token we get to kill a lot of insurgents.
Vietnam was a quagmire. 14,000 dead in the worst year. You'd need 4.5 Iraqs to equal that year in Vietnam. And we survived that one too..
Even absent the insurgency we would shortly have achieved the same result. BECUASE the insurgents were largely Al Qaeda, directed by Zarqawi, and though they were brutal, they only had so many numbers to work with. ANd they ended up alienating Iraqis as well. Zarqawi was taken out, there was little support for aL Qaeda's insurgency by that point, their defeat was simply a matter of time. The surge policy simply made the victory occur even quicker.
If you are going to fight wars against Al Qaeda, or ISIS, you have to actually kill them. We'll die too. Only we'll kill more of them. After the surge you could hear a pin drop it was so quiet. Why? Because the insurgency was routed.
The left have to first lie about Iraq and then lie about war in general and suggest this was the worst foreign policy disaster EVER. Have you actually studied Wars? We may not have found the stockpiles that we thought we might (But considering how long the lead up to war was, there was ample time to destroy or move stockpiles, so it was probably unrealistic to assume we would) but we got regime change, got an interim govt, brought stability, killed Sadaam and his sons,ended the threat that required containment. And in comparison to other wars, the loss was not even that great.
Not saying that I don't mourn the deaths of those that died. But we didn't have a lot of deaths compared to other wars we fought.

And speaking of deaths, lets look at the deaths of Iraqis, this year since ISIS moved in:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/01/world/meast/iraq-civilian-deaths/index.html

"At least 17,049 civilians were recorded killed in Iraq during 2014, Iraq Body Count said, roughly double the number recorded in 2013 -- which in turn was about double that of the previous year."

So ARM, you want to call out Bush for the hell wrought by invasion. I'll call out Obama for the hell wrought by peace. Those deaths are on Obama's heads, and yours. And the NYTimes.

As Natan Sharansky said at the time: "Perhaps the greatest irony of the political debate over Iraq is that many of Bush’s critics, who accused his administration of going blindly to war without considering what would happen once Hussein’s regime was toppled, now blindly support a policy of withdrawing from Iraq without considering what might follow."
Only their support for withdrawal was not blindness, they simply didnt' care if genocide occurred. The NYT said we had to withdrawal even if genocides DID occur. And so, they go their wish. This is what it looks like when we withdraw.

I'll take bases in Iraq but with a stable govt rather than people being mass slaughtered by groups that have no problem chopping their heads off and selling the women into sexual slavery.
All occurring because we simply had to bug out and refused to think about the consequences when we had already achieved stability.; ১১/১/১৫, ৬:৪১ PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan বলেছেন...: এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।; ১১/১/১৫, ৭:৫১ PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan বলেছেন...: jr you have one fair point, Iraq has not stabilized at pre-war levels of violence during Obama's term. To blame this on Obama seems like a stretch. Maliki was the country's leader and he could have camped out in Washington and demanded US troops return to Iraq if that is what he really wanted.; ১১/১/১৫, ৭:৫৫ PM
Rocco বলেছেন...: ARM Wrote:
"The Provisional IRA defined its role as 'defenders of the Catholic community."

And the KKK said it was pledged to help the widows and orphans of the Confederacy.

If it was about Catholicism, what practices/beliefs of Protestants did the PIRA object to?; ১১/১/১৫, ৮:৫০ PM
Known Unknown বলেছেন...: BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH CHENEY BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH

There. Now, ARM can take a day or two off.; ১১/১/১৫, ৯:৫৩ PM
Milwaukie guy বলেছেন...: Don't anybody know how to play this game anymore? USA a world leader?

Jimmy Carter, bless his heart, can now rest easy. We have a definitive winner in the post-WW2 worst presidency contest.; ১১/১/১৫, ১০:২৭ PM
Achilles বলেছেন...: pm317 said...

"Hopefully, the French being the pacifists they are, hopefully they take this opportunity to bring all countries together in addressing this world problem."

France... pacifists... Libya...; ১২/১/১৫, ১২:৪৮ AM
Achilles বলেছেন...: AReasonableMan said...

"Next step for the French, invade some random country, completely unrelated to the attack, and call everyone who says it's a bad idea a fucking coward."

You are a coward. And a lying piece of shit.

We found WMD's.

We oversaw the first real elections in that country.

Obama needed Iraq to fail. He pulled us out.

Obama completely fucked up Syria. Progressive policy there was an absolute embarrassment.

ISIS is your fault. Everything that has happened in the middle east for the last 6 years has been your fault. Progressives have been in charge.

Now we have to go back and clean it up or let a bunch of people be raped and murdered.; ১২/১/১৫, ১২:৫১ AM
Achilles বলেছেন...: AReasonableMan said...
"jr you have one fair point, Iraq has not stabilized at pre-war levels of violence during Obama's term. To blame this on Obama seems like a stretch. Maliki was the country's leader and he could have camped out in Washington and demanded US troops return to Iraq if that is what he really wanted."

Maliki made the same demands of Bush on the status of forces agreement. Bush dealt with in and got the agreement.

Obama used it as an excuse because he wanted Iraq to fail. And so it did.

Progressives have been in charge for 6 years now. These failures are your fault.; ১২/১/১৫, ১২:৫৭ AM
Kirk Parker বলেছেন...: pm317,

The French are pacifists????

Go ahead and pull the other one. The survivors of the Rainbow Warrior attack aren't watching, most likely.; ১২/১/১৫, ৪:২৮ AM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan বলেছেন...: Achilles said...
Progressives have been in charge for 6 years now. These failures are your fault.

No. Maliki is on Bush. He was a disastrous choice.; ১২/১/১৫, ১০:৫৪ AM