What unnerves me is realizing that somehow, my own daughter has picked up on the idea that for a mother to not work is the optimum situation, the one that, if money were no object, of course one would choose. And what I resent is the prevailing public narrative that there are exactly three kinds of working mothers... the blindly ambitious... the poor, financially strapped mom... the rich dabbler....Williams's job is writer, so I'm going to take her writing seriously. She "resent[s] the prevailing public narrative that there are exactly three kinds of working mothers." Resentment is an awfully strong response to the existence of 3 — 3 and only 3 — categories in something as amorphous as "the prevailing public narrative." How can something that fluid have "exactly" anything?
I'd heard that resentment was central to the politics of right-wingers. I heard that from left-wingers:
The resentment that Fox peddles... is agenda-free. There isn't some set of policies they propose to limit the influence of pointy-headed college professors and uppity black people and the lazy moochers stealing your taxes. It's resentment for resentment's sake. Which, if you're a television network, is more than enough, because all you want is for those angry viewers to keep coming back. In fact, it's much better if they never get what they want, because then they'll stay angry, and they'll keep watching. It isn't just Fox, of course. Other conservative media peddle the same thing, and some politicians have even built entire careers on resentment.Well, it isn't just conservatives, I guess. Left-wing media does it too. Sowing resentment. Mary Elizabeth Williams resents that the "prevailing" narrative somehow got past her maternalistic program of controlling the narrative, and the little girl formed enough of a mind of her own to ask a question.
It's a good question! It shows an aptitude for economics. The girl didn't say: I believe there are only 3 reasons — completely separate and non-overlapping — why a woman might work and I'm presuming the one that applies to you is you need the money. She was trying to understand how life works and what goes on in the minds of other human beings. I think that's an opportunity for an adult to engage in a dialogue with the child, to find out how she is thinking and to help her develop her powers of observation and reasoning. But Williams (it seems) used the child's statement as a jumping off point for a column, for doing her work as a writer, talking to other adults, and stirring up the politics of resentment. She's managing her child's mind and, frustrated at that, turns to the adult minds, her readers, who consume the feminist mom's subversion of the dominant paradigm without talking back.
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Interesting how the daughter's comment is interpreted through the lens of the writer's own issues, concerns, maybe insecurities. An egocentric orientation.
Is a ten year old thinking all that? Maybe. My suspicion is that such a situation is "optimum" for a 10 year old because she wants to be around her mom more.
Adults are conditioned to think in terms of economic and status systems. Kids think more relationally. That's why kids love even parents without status or money. The daughter is, of course, egocentric too, she views the world through her own interests. Someone wins, and its usually the person in power (the parent in this case).
It doesn't have to be like this, I suppose, but it usually is.
Again - always - with the "subverting".
Heroes in their own minds, striking mythical blows against an empire that exists only in their fevered nightmares.
@Althouse. Wow, just wow. Your analysis is spot on.
Maybe this mom should pull her head out of her ass and consider that maybe her daughter loves her and wants more time with her.
Isn't it amazing how this mom, who no doubt is proud of her skills in fielding her daughter's questions on sex without embarrassment, is left all flustered by her daughter's question on social gender roles?
Puritan judgmentalism never seems to die. It just seems to take a different form.
If Daddy made more money, you wouldn't work, right?"
At least her child believes there is "work" behind Mom's 'Big Girl' writing. Cute as a button.
I am Laslo.
Isn't the norm these days for most moms to work?
It's a strange world that Williams, Dunham et al occupy. Perhaps they need to leave their imagined utopia. It seems prone to creating irrational and unreasonable individuals. Or perhaps Williams is just being opportunistic and engaging in playground journalism for money and effect.
Isn't the norm these days for most moms to work?
Yeah. You explain it to the child. Why the world is a better place if mommy is not around. All that stuff.
From the article:
As we stood together near the door, I wondered what the source of my daughter’s question could be. Was it because she watches those syndicated episodes of “Modern Family,” a show that for years rode on the unquestioning premise that the moms don’t work? Was it an envious response to all the helpful mothers who do so much for her school, monitoring at recess and guiding after-school activities? I couldn’t figure it out, and I didn’t have time to delve into it. So I just told her the truth. “No, honey,” I’d said. “I like my work. My work is important to me. I want to work.” She looked at me, puzzled, and asked, “Why?” ”I always want to make you proud of me,” I told her that morning. “And this is how I do it.”
Then the 10-year-old said, "You're working to make me proud? Mom, you've got issues."
Maybe the source of the daughter's question is that she likes being with her mom.
Left Bank of the Charles:
Whether it was at home, in the community, or in commerce, it has always been the norm for moms to work. Williams's confusion is caused by her indulgence in an artificial paradigm. Her discomfort is caused by a daughter that does not share her mother's prejudice.
Maybe the child has high emotional aptitude and is perceiving what the mother won't admit. That she doesn't want to put so much time into working and would prefer leisure. Isn't it weird that women these days are averse to entertaining the notion that free time is great? When did we become such workhorses? I mean, there's dignity in work, and it's good to do productive things, but to have all your time to apply to the activities in your immediate life that you judge to be worth doing? That's wonderful. I think there's an awful lot of heavy propaganda... I mean prevailing narrative... that's about preventing us from thinking in those terms.
She looked at me, puzzled, and asked, “Why?”
Good question, kid!
@Henry Excellent point. I'd jumped past that line. It really is tragically off.
resentment
[ri-zent-muh nt]
noun
1.
the feeling of displeasure or indignation at some act, remark, person, etc., regarded as causing injury or insult.
All politics is based on resentment. Conservative resentment is aimed at the government, not "pointy-headed college professors and uppity black people and the lazy moochers stealing your taxes."
Waldman is a fantasist. He confirms the commonplace observation on the Right that liberals have a very poor understanding of how conservatives think.
Jared Diamond have some notions about this kind of thing in his latest book, and Jared Diamond is no kind of right-wing ideologue or - gasp! - demagogue like those blondes on Fox News.
As a few here have pointed out, it is simply stunning that the mother blames society for the fact that her daughter wants to spend more time with her.
I'd heard that resentment was central to the politics of right-wingers. I heard that from left-wingers:
The resentment that Fox peddles... is agenda-free. There isn't some set of policies they propose to limit the influence of pointy-headed college professors and uppity black people and the lazy moochers stealing your taxes. It's resentment for resentment's sake. Which, if you're a television network, is more than enough, because all you want is for those angry viewers to keep coming back. In fact, it's much better if they never get what they want, because then they'll stay angry, and they'll keep watching. It isn't just Fox, of course. Other conservative media peddle the same thing, and some politicians have even built entire careers on resentment. "
Fascinating. Ann dissects them like a lab specimen. These left-wingers are like dogs who see themselves in the mirror and see another dog. They have no sense of self-awareness or irony.
A question for this aggrieved writer: if you won a large lottery would still work full time or would you stay home and spend more time with your kid?
Sounds like someone's raising a little future Republican.
After reading the Waldman piece, I am convinced that he has never watched Fox news. Maybe he's seen an out-of-context compilation by Media Matters?
Ann Althouse: "Maybe the child has high emotional aptitude and is perceiving what the mother won't admit."
Maybe the child has high emotional aptitude and is perceiving what the mother won't admit: The mother seemingly placing a higher value on "work" than in being more "available" to the daughter and assigning a supposed "pride" lever to the daughter to further justify this mothers choice.
"Jared Diamond has ...."
60+ years in this country, and my brain still is not wired for subjects influencing verbs!
The comments at the link run in all directions, but I have to smile at the ones that treat the column as a pop quiz.
I wondered what the source of my daughter’s question could be
Me! Me! I have the answer! It's TV! It's teachers! It's your kid's friends parents!
That last one made me smile. My family is such a bad influence. And the irony, of course, is that among our peers, we're the weirdos.
My suspicion is that such a situation is "optimum" for a 10 year old because she wants to be around her mom more.
Yes!
Isn't it weird that women these days are averse to entertaining the notion that free time is great? When did we become such workhorses? I mean, there's dignity in work, and it's good to do productive things, but to have all your time to apply to the activities in your immediate life that you judge to be worth doing? That's wonderful. I think there's an awful lot of heavy propaganda... I mean prevailing narrative... that's about preventing us from thinking in those terms.
Super yes!
My 10 year old son asked me (his mother) the same thing -- if I made more money, could his dad keep staying home?
After pausing for a moment of heartbreak and guilt, we had a discussion of what work was, and how to try to find balance in work and life and finances. And then we moved on. So does my experience cancel hers out? Will my son end up being a meninist someday?
Ironically, the feminist paradigm reduced women's choices through narrow normalization (i.e. promotion). Also, public benefits, including Obamacare, are expensive and redistributive. While women were productive in multiple roles throughout society, throughout their lifetime, they were also assets that were only marginally taxed and potentially a large source of revenue.
The mother feels like working gives her life meaning, but that concept is foreign to a child. Until they become teenagers, the only meaning they understand is inextricably linked to being someone's kid.
The only time in our married life of 46 yrs that I the Male made more $$ was the several yrs I still worked and wife had retired. Yes, even in Retirement she makes more. Good for Us.
If the mother says she works because "I always want to make you proud of me," she is expressing her own belief that it's shameful not to work. Then it's not about choice, it's about shame-avoidance. How did a feminist come to have that mindset?
Very odd this.
What my grandmothers did was not work?
This story resonates with me, because my sister-in-law has just announced that she is leaving her husband and kids to take a job in another city. For the past couple of years we have heard nothing but resentment about her role as homemaker, and the childlike behavior of her children. Her husband has been enormously supportive of her difficulties (we thought he was the one going to leave). He makes a good living and will make even more when he finishes his internship. But she feels like she is a failure as a human being if she doesn't have her own career. Madness.
Then it's not about choice, it's about shame-avoidance. How did a feminist come to have that mindset?
It's TV! It's teachers! It's your kid's friends parents!
(Henry gives us a near universal answer to social conditioning)
A point has been made, but from the perspective of the mother who can't spend the time with her child.
I look at it from the child's perspective (once mine actually) and see a mother working as a mother not at home and simply not available. I think that's how many children perceive what was once an anomaly and is now the norm.
AA: Maybe the child has high emotional aptitude and is perceiving what the mother won't admit.
I don't buy this. She's not Ann Frank and even Ann didn't have a developed emotional aptitude at that age. Her writing is stark and evokes emotion from the reader. And she was probably an exceptional child.
Maybe her 10 year old really would like to have one of her parents stay at home.
My comment reflects Drago's point, made before I saw it posted.
So I just told her the truth. “No, honey,” I’d said. “I like my work. My work is important to me. I want to work.”
To a child, this means, "More important to me than you are."
Kids get it. If they don't have food on the table, heat, shelter, clothing, etc, they know why mom and dad have to work.
But when they have those things, and mom chooses work because, "Work is important" it sends them the message, "Work is more important."
Also, seems a bit ironic that she resents what he child has learned about her working.
If she didn't work, she'd be able to teach her child what she wants her child to learn. But, work is more important to her, so resentment must come with the territory.
If my wife made enough that I didn't have to work, I would not work. I would absolutely keep computer-programming, possibly contributing to open-source projects, possibly trying to develop my own software to sell. But I would be fully aware that I was doing so as a hobby, and would not let it interfere with having time with my children. I would likely choose a project that I could involve my children in, such as a game where they could beta-test, provide suggestions, etc.
Someone who is a writer could easily do the same, if they valued time with their children.
Face it, kid, she's just not that into you.
Smart child there.
The family romance of children with their mothers, fathers and siblings is the dream world that never seems to last.
Adults are self centered and also like other people outside the home. That hurts the child's feelings. Finally the child leaves home and it all recycles looking to get it right in the next generation.
That ideal that a really loving parent only has to spend time with those others to make the money is the last dream to be shattered, if it ever is.
This conversation is making me remember a dialogue that took place in my family circa 1970 (perhaps the summer I was home after my first year in college).
ME (to my mother): Why don't you work? Don't you want to work?
FATHER (proudly): Your mother hasn't worked a day in 20 years!
MOTHER (taking gentle umbrage): Of course, I work! This is work.
ME: I mean work at a job.
FATHER: What would be the point of her working at a job? How much money do you think she would make? The government would take it away in taxes. Between taxes and the cost of getting to work and dressing for work, there wouldn't be any money.
ME: But people work for the satisfaction of having a career...
FATHER: You want your mother to go out and get a job and work for someone else without making any money to speak of? How does that make sense?
Progressives all of stripes - National Socialists, Communists, plain vanilla Socialists - always hate the family. The family commands loyalty from its members. It provides shelter, physically and emotionally. It interferes with dependency upon the state. It distracts from the state.
So mommy - if a true Progressive, a true statist - really must give her job more worth than her family, her child. It's part of the Progressive belief system.
The author claims that work defines her, yet she doesn't honestly answer her daughter's question about why she works, instead feeding her the "I want you to be proud" pablum.
I'm sure the daughter knows she is being lied to. Kids always do. And if the daughter *isn't* proud of the Mom for working, won't that be a burden for the daughter to bear?
If the mother says she works because "I always want to make you proud of me," she is expressing her own belief that it's shameful not to work. Then it's not about choice, it's about shame-avoidance. How did a feminist come to have that mindset?
While I have no hesitation to bash the idiocy of many feminists, wouldn't it be reasonable to explain her feelings not as a belief that it is shameful not to work but, rather, she wants to do something important and constructive outside the home that her daughter can point to with pride in her mother's achievement?
Of course, left unsaid is that there is no such important and constructive achievement when working inside the home. And when you compound that with how demanding it is to stay at home attending to household chores and child-rearing, her desire to get out and go to "work" has the propulsion effect of drive wheels on a tractor.
She was being honest with the kid....just not completely honest. And certainly, not with herself or us.
- Krumhorn
I wish that she would take it at face value that her 10-year just wants her mother to be home and see the need for money as the reason why her mother is working away from home.
After all, who wants to be identified as a housewife or a homemaker when they can be known to their children and others as an astrophysicist, doctor, writer...or even a law professor?
- Krumhorn.
...or blogress?
This is, actually, the central ideological defect of feminism.
- Krumhorn
I have four children and I work full time outside the home as the sole breadwinner while my husband has stayed home with the kids.
Children want both their parents at home. Period. They especially want their mother at home. Period. They don't career about his career or her career or "being proud" whatever the heck that means. They want to know that their parents love them, want to spend time with them, and that they are important. My children know that I love them more than I love my job. I always have and I always will.
This is what the ten year old is asking her mother, "Do you love me more than you love your job? Would you choose me over your job?" Sadly, to the ears of a child, her answer was no.
Likely translation of the child's question, "You'd really like to stay with me, right?"
Jenny hits it out the park.
The ten year old is asking, "You love me more than your job, right? If have to work, but you'd prefer to spend that time with me, instead... right?"
Sorry, kid - mommy says no...
But hey! Feminism is totally about helping females! Just... not the ones who aren't yet voting and shouting the party line. Or were killed off for the crime of being inconvenient. As a bonus, this child is in an environment ripe for becoming a Julia, so at least there's that...
I would have thought it ideal as a child if both of my parents could have stayed home with me all day.
m stone: "My comment reflects Drago's point, made before I saw it posted"
You said it better.
And if the daughter *isn't* proud of the Mom for working, won't that be a burden for the daughter to bear?
Yep.
The stereotypical overbearing mom said "Make me proud of you" to her kids. Now it's "You'd better me proud of me".
Progress.
Maybe if she wrote better daddy could stay home and wring *his* hands about something equally banal. I like it how its assumed we're automatically the workhorses and only mommy has the option of "finding her inner muse." Or some such bullshit like that.
My stay at home mom went back to work, graduate degree and all that, while I was a child. I have thus never considered being a working parent. (Much to the total and abiding disbelief of the office I left when our first son was born and the shock of people who knew me in school.)
"I always want to make you proud of me,” I told her that morning. “And this is how I do it.”
I couldn't get past that statement. Awful. I think my kids have asked my husband the equivalent. "If we were rich, would you work?" MY spouse didn't navel gaze for a response, it was, "of course, I'd like to be home more with you."
“I always want to make you proud of me,” I told her that morning. “And this is how I do it.”
And the child replied: If you want me to be proud of you, you should work harder on your prose, because right now it's kind of embarrassing.
Here's the second comment on Salon right now.
Realizing yourself through a "career" is some sappy schtick made up by your boss who is realizing herself on her yacht
Somebody gets it.
My wife makes enough that I don't have to work, so I became an academic.
I find little kids get to the point of relationships much faster than teens/adults. Probably because there aren't any controls on their inhibitions.
How sad for her to discover her 10 year old is smarter than she is. The fact is it is ALWAYS better for someone to not have to work, and if your child (or spouse, or friend) wishes to spend more time with you they'd prefer if you could afford to not work.
Instead, she decides this must mean her daughter was secretly indoctrinated by Rush Limbaugh, or patriarchy, or rape culture or something. Instead of "hey how nice, my daughter would like to spend more time with me! I hope she remembers that when she's a surly teenager!" it's all "how dare you question my need for outside fulfillment!"
My wife makes enough that I don't have to work, so I became an academic.
I read this as alcoholic, and thought "same difference."
The working women I know are in science and they're grim about their work.
Unlike guys, who enjoy it.
Feminism ought to figure out what women enjoy doing and encourage that instead of grimly taking men's work, as that's the only way women can be serious.
This is related to That's Not Funny, which turns up all over.
"I didn’t have time to delve into it." It being the feelings of her child. I suspect that was not a one time occurrence.
If the mother says she works because "I always want to make you proud of me," she is expressing her own belief that it's shameful not to work. Then it's not about choice, it's about shame-avoidance. How did a feminist come to have that mindset?
This has been my entire experience of feminism in my adult life, which is why I have rejected it (despite feeling some gratitude to the first wavers.)
Look, it's not that hard to understand though. There is pressure from employers to stigmatize the "mommy track" and the women who bow to that pressure resent the women who don't. It's also really hard to invest (emotionally and financially) in a career and then put it aside or on mothballs, but would also be hard in today's society to choose at 18 to marry and have kids with a male breadwinner. There are more choices now but most of them unfold in complicated ways throughout your lifespan.
A job for money is the best cure for depression known to man. That is why Obama welfare like Swedish welfare creates depression and suicides.
The Dems just ask "What's the matter with Kansas." They have not got a clue.
Our 5-year old is in a "I want mommy and daddy (but mostly mommy) to stay home with me all day" phase. Doesn't matter that he's in school 8am-2pm - we should be there waiting for him. Fortunately my wife is able to work from home quite a bit and have flexible hours, so she's a lot more available to the kids than someone at a 9-5 job. I can't speak for my wife, but if I won the lottery I would sure as hell take it easy and spend a lot more time with the kids.
Poor kid. Second place to subverting the dominant paradigm. But hey, maybe she'll be proud of her mother in the coming paradigm-less America.
I remember a line from a movie a long time ago where Julie Kavner played a comic who suddenly hit and it meant travel. Her kids were 15 and 10 or something. She felt guilty because a once in a lifetime opportunity of her dream was happening and it meant financial security after years of hardship. Someone tried to make Kavner feel better about the travel by saying the old me generation BS of, "The kids will be happier if you are more fulfilled and happy."
Kavner said no, "If the kids had a choice between me being happy in Hawaii and suicidal, but home, they will pick suicidal and home."
When I was 4/5 I would be annoyed when she was on the phone too long and I needed her attention for something.
There's a "nanny state" joke in here, somewhere.
traditionalguy:
With or without monetary compensation, productivity is the most effective cure for depression.
'I stopped writing for women’s magazines the day an editor changed a quote from a woman in a story from “I love my job and I love my kids” to “I like my job but I love my kids.”'
She is still writing whiny, inane, overwrought gibberish about her "feelings", illustrated by made-up quotes from imaginary friends. It's just not published next to ads for lipstick.
From birth, kids want their mom. End of story.
I guess it's good I'm not a writer paid by the word. The article would have been much shorter.
Note - my kids are 30's. They know I am successful, work hard, make a lot of money. Are they proud of me? Maybe if they stopped to think about it that way. More likely, they are glad when they call with their questions, challenges, issues and needs, I am there for them.
I ran into a health problem yesterday. I called my mom. She is 82, I am lucky I can still do that.
The article was stupid, shallow, self-justifying. Little kids aren't feminists no matter how much effort is put into that.
Ok I'll stop now.
I'm going for a combination of blind ambition and rich dabbler. Mom is certainly narcissistic and is projecting her beliefs onto her child.
I'm going for a combination of blind ambition and rich dabbler. Mom is certainly narcissistic and is projecting her beliefs onto her child.
With or without monetary compensation, productivity is the most effective cure for depression.
True.
If the mother says she works because "I always want to make you proud of me," she is expressing her own belief that it's shameful not to work. Then it's not about choice, it's about shame-avoidance. How did a feminist come to have that mindset?
There were many attempts to "shame" me when I
stopped practicing medicine to be a stay-at-home-
mother.
When asked why I left a promising medical career, I would respond: "you can find a physician in minutes to care for your medical needs. But my kids have only one irreplaceable mother."
Initially I was very conflicted and felt much guilt for giving up my career. As time went on, I stopped feeling guilt and was grateful I had had a choice.
"With or without monetary compensation, productivity is the most effective cure for depression."
I disagree with this. I've been extremely productive while also depressed. It was a miserable season of life. The productivity did little or nothing.
Now, more exercise, better hydration, sunshine, and the honest reality of productivity being valued was very helpful.
Sometimes not being productive was also helpful, stepping back from a performance/pride model and re-evaluating my priorities. That has been essential.
My wife has not worked for the last 16 years, as the kids were in school. If I am talking to a woman who is working, I avoid talking about that fact so I do not cause any discomfort. I don't always know if she would be embarrassed at having a husband who wants her to work, or if her husband's income is too low to let her stop working. Not that my income is high, but it is unfair to impose on others one's ability to endure low family income in order to keep one parent at home.
Paddy O:
I think you simultaneously disagree and agree with my proposition, as you simultaneously mischaracterize productivity and then describing its many facets.
"In fact, it's much better if they never get what they want, because then they'll stay angry, and they'll keep watching [/rioting/protesting/suing/voting]."
I actually used to be friends with Williams, even met her once when she came up to Seattle. She used to be at C|Net as forum moderator and we shared an affection for the Pina Colada song.
Nevertheless, she's turned into a nutcase. I think she once even argued in print that infanticide was okay (rabid pro-abortionist as well).
But, you know, I still like her.
Was it because she watches those syndicated episodes of “Modern Family,” a show that for years rode on the unquestioning premise that the moms don’t work?
I assume the reason the mothers don't work on "Modern Family" is so they can interact with the kids, allowing comedy to ensue. If you made the mothers work, you'd have to build new sets to show their workplaces and hire new actors to play their co-workers.
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