"It’s tacky and tasteless. What are they going to ask for next? The child’s private school or college fund?" said bioethicist Jennifer Lahl, looking at
crowd-funding projects by couples who need money to make their baby.
But the Paranada-Frieds shrug off her assessment. “The circles we move in are not judgmental,” says Scott, 35, a teacher who wed his actor boyfriend in Manhattan last summer. “They know that Jay and I will make wonderful parents. That’s all that matters.”
If you think that's making it sound more like etiquette than ethics, the linked article include advice from the author of "The Etiquette Book: A Complete Guide to Modern Manners." She says:
"Whenever someone says anything that is offensive or inappropriate, you just reply, 'Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts.'"
That sounds hard to say without a sarcastic edge. Let me suggest instead:
Oh, my, and I was just thinking that the circles we move in are not judgmental.
पोस्ट्स
४३ टिप्पण्या:
Anybody else ever notice people who say they are not judgmental often look down at you if you judge people in their presence?
Irony, much?
I have supported crowd funding campaigns for (fellow) IVF patients. I was proud to do it and would do it again...though only under conditions that I'd expect those "circles" to consider terribly "judgmental."
Communing with the stragglers on the road of progress guide.
How does anyone know if they will make wonderful parents? It depends so much on the child and the circumstances, which no one can predict. All anyone can say is they will try their best to do good by their kids. But to claim you will be "great parents?" Seems like undeserved bragging.
Adopt. Ordinarily I don't recommend adoption because there are often deep-rooted problems that can't be foreseen or even overcome (from personal experience), but these people are ridiculous.
So, the entitlements start before conception?
How will these parents manage after the baby is delivered?....oh! That's my job, too??
"It’s tacky and tasteless. What are they going to ask for next? The child’s private school or college fund?"
Why not? How is crowd funding any different than the bum on the street looking for a handout? No one has to give and those that do, do so for their own reasons. All crowd funding is is giving money to stranger with no strings attached. IVF, college fund, booze and smokes… whatever floats your boat in terms of gifting.
1 John 5:4,5
Kinda like asking for cash as a wedding gift.
Oh my, apparently the circles they move in are not judgmental. Paging Mr. Alighieri; Dante, are you online tonight?
“The circles we move in are not judgmental"
I seriously doubt it. They may not be judgmental of anything these guys do, but send the "circle" to Alabama and let's see what happens. Besides banjo music. Better yet, I hear Chad is lovely this time of year. Or why not, say, Milwaukee. "And reflect that whatever fortune may be your lot / It could only be worse in Milwaukee."
Seriously, if you really think you need something and you ain't too proud to beg, then ask for help. Better to risk embarrassment than have the "what ifs" haunt you. IVFs are expensive, the window is limited, why not? Assuming you can find anyone to pay for it, natch.
As to the other couple looking for a surrogate, not sure how you are going to afford a child if you haven't saved up enough to hire a surrogate beforehand. Not exactly inspiring me with your long-term planning.
Static,
Only Deteriorata reference I've come across in 30 years. The way things are these days you'd think it'd be the national anthem. On the other hand, my dogs are finally getting enough cheese.
Someone should crowdfund a year of lunches. Or gas. Maybe I should crowdfund my kids' music lessons. Also, I want a new patio. Crowdfund?
I understand crowdfunding for emergencies, hard luck, startups, serious illnesses, or similar. But why crowdfund normal life. This isn't even IVF for a couple suffering from infertility.
“The circles we move in are not judgmental”
That might change if someone were to point out to those circles the contribution each additional child will make to global warming.
Then again, the article sneers at the idea of people crowdfunding their kid's college fund, but I think that's a great idea. College is incredibly expensive now. I know plenty of great people with great kids who have very little money. Seems like an ideal situation for crowdfunding.
So don't cough up the money. People can ask, and I can say, "no."
"I hear you, but I see things differently."
"I hear you, but my view differs."
I dunno. I've been trying stuff out in my head, and those two former sentences are right up there (though not on top of the list) but I still question whether either of them are satisfactory enough in nature, much less in reality.
"I know what you're saying, but I can't just go along with it 100%."
That one was several ticks further down the list and thus cast out even sooner.
---
Still working on in it... .
Wait. There's also a dream therein to have twins biologically related to both of them, gestated and born by a surrogate?
What else could that mean other than two eggs from one individual woman, one egg fertilized by one of the dreaming guys and the other egg fertilized by the other dreaming guy, and then both resulting embryos implanted into a surrogate who will gestate and give birth to "twin" siblings who will be genetically connected to each other through the egg donor and one each of whom will be connected to one specific one of the parents via the sperm that discretely (no typo there) did the fertilization? So that everyone will be equally related, so to speak, to each other, or something akin to that.
---
Without question, it seems I need to go back to the chalkboard in coming up with appropriate sentences of response.
“We neglected to give you an appropriate wedding gift, so please accept this in celebration of the wedding and the babies!”
Argh...
These kids are going to search for donor mom later in life, no matter how much they pay. No control over that.
At what point does this become human trafficking??
Come on, this isn't treating fertility, it's selling babies.
This is tacky and tasteless but demanding free contraceptives isn't. Got it.
Normally I'd say adopt but adopted kids deserve better than these parasites. And really gay guys there is absolutely no excuse for you to go down this road. I expect better of you.
I realize this comment renders me Ineligible for membership in this person's social circle, but I've always felt that IVF itself represents an entitlement mentality (feeling entitled to take extraordinary measures to override the course of nature or hand of God.) asking others to finance it just puts a finer point on the entitlement.
I generally wouldn't feel it is my place to express that opinion, and probably still would not do so if I was asked to contribute financially to this project. The silence of my wallet not opening would be the answer to this request. I don't think that people should assume that there is no negative repercussion for asking.
From the article:
But you have to seal yourself against those opinions. Whenever someone says anything that is offensive or inappropriate, you just reply, ‘Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts.’
It's always hilarious when someone is trying to be profound and says something quite wrong. Of course, it could be a transcription error, or an editor's error.
Having battled infertility and been providentially blessed by God, and a double health coverage for my wife and I at the time we went through it...
I'm amazed at how tacky and tasteless it is to beat up on people who are asking their friends and family for help in having children. If it's something you've never experienced it's hard to understand how depressing it can be. There are definitely some people I know now that are battling infertility that if they asked...we'd probably be willing to financially help. There's also people we wouldn't help, but that's just part of life. But just like many things when you don't suffer from that difficulty, people can be just plan *ssholes "why don't you just get a dog or pick up some hobby."
"This isn't even IVF for a couple suffering from infertility."
To be clear, that was in reference to the gay couple.
"So don't cough up the money. People can ask, and I can say, "no.""
Pretty much. I see nothing wrong with soliciting donations from friends and family for any reason, and IVF is incredibly expensive and almost never covered by insurance. If friends want to help out, great. If not, fine. The only issue would be if the person requesting money began to harass or try to shame people for not donating. Short of that, though, there's nothing wrong with it.
" It’s not as if it’s easy to adopt."
Sounds like a supply-side problem.
Entitlement Princess needs big money to be pregnant and saying that she is selfish and should adopt is "judgemental".
"This isn't even IVF for a couple suffering from infertility."
To be clear, that was in reference to the gay couple.
I'm guessing that those two things will soon be completely conflated. An infertile heterosexual couple's dilemma is nearly identical to that of a homosexual couple (except that in the latter case it is always known in advance that a pregnancy will not occur as a result of the union.)
I say this with all the love in my heart ...
Having children is not about you. It is about giving generously of yourself. If you find that you "need" IVF, please adopt. There are plenty of kids out there who need a home.
"There are plenty of kids out there who need a home."
There may be, but my understanding is that it can take several years and tens of thousands of dollars to go through an adoption. It's a nasty fact, considering we should be encouraging more kids to go to good homes, but with certain exceptions you have to be fairly wealthy to adopt.
iVF is almost never covered by insurance?? War on Women!
Brando:
So if it's expensive and time-consuming to adopt, that is different than IVF how, exactly?
Concern troll has concerns. News at 11.
Since mine appears to be the minority opinion I will, at the risk of being the dreaded Last Comment, explain.
Infertility isn't some mystical state. It is an illness. It has a couple of unique properties, in that it is an illness that effects couples rather than individuals, but for all that it is an illness just the same. And there are treatments for this illness, ranging from oral medications to minor surgeries to IVF. Those treatments cost money; some of them cost onerous amounts of money. I was able to bear those costs for my family, but some people aren't, so I'm happy to help where I can. I raise money for St. Jude, too. I want people to be well. It is no more or less complicated than that.
The response many of you seem to have --- why don't they just adopt, or accept childlessness, or whatever --- seems very strange to me. Would you tell John the amputee that it's unforgivably crass to ask for money for a new custom-fit prosthetic leg in a world where there are a whole lot of perfectly good crutches? Would you tell Jane the cataract patient that she shouldn't raise money for surgery when there are organizations that will give her a perfectly good service dog once she's blind?
"So if it's expensive and time-consuming to adopt, that is different than IVF how, exactly?"
Time and expense-wise, they're the same. Where did I imply they were different?
"Time and expense-wise, they're the same." Perhaps if and I stress IF you are sponsoring a young woman who is pregnant so that she will let you adopt her baby after she gives birth, maybe.
There are kids in foster care who are available NOW. Depending on your state and the exact child, the fees are quite reasonable and in some cases can be waived.
Plus, adoption works every time. IVF, not so much...
It takes a village to make a baby.
Brian,
I disagree that infertility itself is an illness, though I do see your perspective.
The bigger objection I have is that proponents of IVF are disregarding the potential that anyone could have a legitimate moral objection to the procedure. If I am asked to respect the right, in a pluralistic society, for people to choose this option, I do want my own right to a different opinion to also be respected and upheld.
"There are kids in foster care who are available NOW. Depending on your state and the exact child, the fees are quite reasonable and in some cases can be waived."
That's true--I was referring to adoption of a healthy child immediately after birth where you go through an agency (rather than adopting a child of a relative, say). I understand those can take several years and cost around $40K, which is what typical IVF procedures can cost.
Adopting much older kids or special needs kids is likely less expensive and quicker.
CStanley,
"Infertility" is really too big of a word. In the last crowd-funding case I supported, the couple's "infertility" was a caused by the husband's chemotherapy during his early 20s.. What is this, if not an illness? "We can't make babies because neither of us is a woman" is a completely different case, as is "I can't get pregnant because I waited until the cusp of menopause to try."
As for the other, you've got the wrong --- or perhaps the right --- guy. I fully agree that the IVF procedure is morally perilous. I just happen to think those perils can be navigated, if one is careful enough. And indeed this level of care --- no human embryo should ever be killed, for instance --- is one of the terribly judgmental conditions of my support that I allude to up top.
Also, FWIW when perusing listings of adoptable foster kids, they use "special needs" for all kinds of things and not just kids who need special ed. It usually means the child is older or is part of a sibling group they'd like to place together ...
That is interesting, Brian. My impression has been that very few people go through iVF without selective abortion and/or destruction of embryos. I wouldn't have thought it possible to donate selectively to those who were avoiding that.
It's still against my religious beliefs but I commend your ethical stand.
Sounds like a supply-side problem.
No, not really. And by "not really," I mean a strong, full-stop "no." As in, you do not actually know much, if anything at all, about that over which you continually harangue people.
What the hell, I say? First up:
Check yourself. Make sure that you don't have as a simul-multi-task goal to insist 1) that other people agree with you 100% and 2) that people who disagree with you are evil 100%.
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