“This isn’t Vietnam!” Netanyahu shouted. “No one understands Israel but Israel.”
Kerry tried explaining himself again: “No one is saying it’s Vietnam. But I’ve been coming here for thirty years, and I’m telling you, what’s building up in the Palestinians has only gotten worse. I’ve seen it. It doesn’t matter if it’s right or wrong; it just is. It can’t be solved if you can’t see it how they see it.”
२१ जुलै, २०१४
"When I fought in Vietnam, I used to look at the faces of the local population and the looks they gave us."
"I’ll never forget it. It gave me clarity that we saw the situation in completely different ways," said John Kerry pushing Benjamin Netanyahu "to try to understand what life looks like from the Palestinian point of view."
याची सदस्यत्व घ्या:
टिप्पणी पोस्ट करा (Atom)
पोस्ट्स
१४० टिप्पण्या:
It seems clear to me that the Palestinians see one goal: to kill all the Jews and destroy the State of Israel.
That's how the Palestinians see it.
"Since reclaiming the premiership in 2009 after a disastrous stint in the 1990s, Netanyahu felt as if nobody had given him proper credit for the risks he had taken for peace."
This is an interesting sentence.
Why do no Palestinians look at life through the eyes of the Jew? and Israel gave Gaza over to the Palestinians with zero preconditions. The uprooted all settlements and even gave them greenhouses so as to facilitate commerce. So, this is not a case of Israel occupying Gaza.
Why is the democrats only frame of reference Vietnam?
Germany was de-Nazified after WWII, and is now a nation which does not threaten its neighbors. Something similar needs to happen in the Palestinian territories, but no one has the standing to do it.
Israel certainly doesn't, nor does the United States. Perhaps Egypt does; after all, although there's no love of Israel in Egypt, that country made its peace with Israel and has been willing to keep it.
But Egypt has its own troubles and it's surely not interested in taking on more. And who else would do it?
As for Kerry, well, why point out what everyone already knows: that he's a fool?
So, it
Like I have said this BiBi character seems more interested in fine dining and golf than the work of diplomacy.
If the Palestinians see it as "the state of Israel must cease to exist and the Jews driven into the sea" and it can only be solved if we look at the situation from that perspective then it can't be solved in a way that satisfies the Palestinians unless the Jewish state ceases to be. netenyahu has looked at the situation from their perspective and realizes that if they win, his state dies. And so, that's why the state of Israel does what it does.
For john Kerry to bring up Vietnam is such an example of his cluelessness about his treason back in the 70s that facilitated his political career Netanyahu should throw him out of the country. Netanyahu served his country with honor.
Kerry is such a pitiful example of a man.
Somehow I don't see Kerry asking the Palestinians the same question.
That someone as arrogant and stupid as Kerry is Secretary of State of the United States is acknowledgement of just how low the US has sunk.
Kerry making sense for once.
To understand how they got to where they are, read Ariel Sharon's autobiography "Warrior."
Now, I think Sharon came to think his vision from then (1989) was not going to work, and it was time to try something else, so he broke out of Likud and formed Kadima. But then he had his stroke, if that is what it was.
Now I think Netanyahu is just thrashing around with no idea of how to eventually get out of this mess.
Golda Meir, maybe the fiercest PM of them all, said there will be peace in Palestine when they realize they love their children more than they hate us.
That of course cuts both ways.
I do think Meir was right that there will be peace in Palestine when the parties there decide to have peace, and not before. American meddling - official and private - I think has just made things worse, and will continue to do so.
With the violence and hatreds on both sides that are built up now, I think it will take another 2-3 generations to get to the point where they want to make peace. But the way the rest of the world is looking, Israel may not have that much time.
"How they see it" is that they they despise the Jews and want to to see Israel destroyed. Therefore the problem cannot be "solved."
The problem, right now, is that an organization in league with a state government refused to honor a cease fire.
Anything else comes second to stopping acts of war.
He still has the hat.
"It doesn’t matter if it’s right or wrong; it just is. It can’t be solved if you can’t see it how they see it.”
That's also true for white people, here, but they're just demanding getting their way,...
"That's also true for white people, here, but they're just demanding getting their way,…"
So, to align the analogy, you'd like to see white people lecturing black people about how black people should look at things from the white person's point of view so that we can move past this era of conflict?
I think the point of the Israeli incursion is NOT to win the "hearts and minds" but to stop the rocket barrage. Mr Kerry should be looking at today not 50 years ago.
My favorite take on the perspective of the local Vietnamese population ran along the lines of: "Nobody cared about the geopolitics of Communism versus Capitalism, they just wanted to be left alone to grow rice and raise babies."
From memory. Can't recall the source. Maybe I just made it up.
"You have to see things from others' point of view", says the man who sees everything filtered through his own point of view.
Kerry really isn't that smart, and is clearly not smart enough for this job. Contrast him and some of the people who have preceded him - Condi Rice, Kissenger, Albright, etc.
I really don't see how this isn't pretty black and white. Starting a bit over a century ago, Jews started moving back into the Promised Land, and made it bloom, turning it from an arid desert to a land that can support millions of Jews AND Arabs. Far from pushing the Arabs out, they have made it possible for many times the Arabs to live there than have ever done so in the past. And, the thanks that they get for this, is that Arabs want to take this away from the Israelis, but will probably ultimately destroy the infrastructure built with so much hard work, as they did the greenhouses in Gaza.
So, the Iranians send missiles and heavy weapons to Gaza, where Hamas and their terrorists shoot them from schools, hospitals, mosques, and cemeteries at civilian targets in Israel. Or, actually just wherever they go, since the terrorists seem mostly incapable of really aiming them. But, that is fine, because the primary purpose of those rockets is to terrorize Israeli civilians. Ultimately, the Israelis move when the attacks on them become too egregious, and that is when John Kerry opens his mouth.
Ann Althouse,
"So, to align the analogy, you'd like to see white people lecturing black people about how black people should look at things from the white person's point of view so that we can move past this era of conflict?"
No, whites already do that,...
The classic veteran's trap is viewing all wars in your particular war.
Signed,
An Iraq War veteran
Ann Althouse,
"So, to align the analogy, you'd like to see white people lecturing black people about how black people should look at things from the white person's point of view so that we can move past this era of conflict?"
If whites look at their own, the strain might be too much,....
Another example, adding to an almost infinite supply, of how clueless John Kerry can be.
It would be difficult to come up with any two conflicts with less in common than Vietnam and Gaza.
Vietnam was the last and pretty much only real experience Kerry ever had. From what I've read about it, he didn't really know what was going on while he was there and yet interprets everything since through that same distorted lens.
Aside from the inapt Vietnam analogy and the fact that Israel's issues with the Palestinians are frankly none of our business and it would be nice for a U.S. president to finally acknowledge that, there is a central problem that Israel is going to have to deal with sooner or later.
There is a sizable population of people in Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem that are in a form of limbo that is going to create more of a problem both for Israel's security and as a humanitarian disaster as time goes by. Israel can either decide to take them in as citizens--meaning changing the general character of Israel to become less a "Jewish state" and more "Jewish and Arab state", or it can disown these areas and let them go their own way--meaning any Jewish settlers in those areas would have to accept minority citizenship in those states with whatever that would entail. But keeping this halfway measure--keeping the territories semi-autonomous but maintaining military presence there as well as some responsibility for what happens there--is just going to mean more of this, forever.
And for the Palestinians' part, it's not clear to me why they never tried the nonviolent approach. Wouldn't nonviolent resistence be more likely to work in terms of convincing not just the international community but the Israeli citizens themselves to pull out? Having terror groups like Hamas suck up all the Palestinians' efforts has only emboldened the punitive party in Israel, and certainly doesn't make anyone think that a Palestinian state would become anything more than a basket case.
But as messy as that all is, I still don't see why the U.S. needs to be involved in that region in any way. Israel is a first world country, and we're generations away from the day when they had to fear being invaded. They can handle terrorists at least as well as we can, and no other state would dare launch an unconventional weapon at them for fear of retaliation. Why do they need our aid and support, and what are we actually getting out of that?
"Now I think Netanyahu is just thrashing around with no idea of how to eventually get out of this mess."
Netanyahu knows exactly what he is doing. Israel must destroy the hundreds of miles of tunnels Hamas has built in Gaza. It is almost the only occupation in that territory. Building tunnels and bunkers. It has cost them (Their donors actually) hundreds of millions of dollars. They could have a successful city-state with that money except for the death wish they have.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/michael-mukasey-tunnels-matter-more-than-rockets-to-hamas-1405894408
Hamas now saw its strategic plan unraveling. The tunnel network gave it the ability to launch a coordinated attack within Israel like the 2008 Islamist rampage in Mumbai that killed 164 people. Recall that in 2011 Israel released more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners, more than 200 of whom were under a life sentence for planning and perpetrating terror attacks. They were exchanged for one Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, who had been taken hostage in a cross-border raid by Hamas. Imagine the leverage that Hamas could have achieved by sneaking fighters through the tunnels and taking hostages throughout Israel; the terrorists intercepted Saturday night were carrying tranquilizers and handcuffs.
ARM said: "Kerry making sense for once."
You are only off by one. Not bad!
The Palestinians have leaders that profit from nothing changing. If the society were less dysfunctional, everybody but the leaders would be better off.
So the incentives are to keep things as they are, with periodic flareups.
That cycle would be broken by a media less incentivized to play the narrative for their idiot audience, or by the Israelis crushing the Palestinians. You defeat dysfunctional stability; you don't coddle it.
The same deal with blacks in the US. Their appointed leaders, their appointed media narrative, profit; everybody else is ruined. It's stable.
How hard is it to understand that nobody cares what race you are if you specialize and trade.
They do if you demand free stuff.
The only lesson ever learned from international peace negotiations is that: When side A and side B want peace, then there will be peace. But when side A wants peace and side B wants war, then there will be war. And when side A wants war and side B wants peace, then there will be war.
And millions and millions of words cannot change that.
"Palestinians are an invented people"
- Newt Gingrich
Netanyahu's response should have been to pull out of his pocket a copy of the Charter of Hamas which calls for the destruction of Israel; its hatred of all Jewish people; and its call for global jihad and a global caliphate.
No different from Mein Kampf.
....and when the Jews are gone, then will they turn on themselves?
"Kerry really isn't that smart, and is clearly not smart enough for this job. Contrast him and some of the people who have preceded him - Condi Rice, Kissenger, Albright, etc."
Despicable people, all.
Kerry is lecturing Israel tBout how they have to look at the other sides perspective, while Hamas ignores the cease fire proposed by Egypt and fires rockets into Israel.
That really is the left on Israel in a nutshell. For Israel its nothing but the highest standards required of them, for their enemies, no standards at all.
The Palestinians of Gaza and Judea+Samaria have the same prospects today as the Germans of Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia had in 1945. If the allies could relocate 8 million Germans from their ancestral homes in the East to the new borders of Germany to the West of the Oder; I see no reason why Israel cannot relocate some 4 million Palestinians to Jordan, Egypt, and Syria. It would be terrible for the people involved, but it would lead to the stable borders that peace requires.
I believe that Mr. Kerry's primary contact with Vietnamese villagers came when he destroyed their winter supply of rice after coming ashore following a brief fire fight. I can understand the looks he may have received from them.
In looking at the world, Kerry always puts on the long face.
Kerry was in Vietnam?
Really?
How come he never told us this before?
Anyone ever notice that his head looks like a watermelon?
John Henry
Israel DOES see it how the Palestinians see it. The Palestinians want Israel destroyed and the Jews gone. And Israel realizes that.
Pretty awesome one-two punch Obama selected for SecSta, isn't it?
Hey! Ann just engaged Crack, directly.
And did the "casting pearls before swine" result surprise anyone? Anyone?
Much is made of the Palestinians' denial of Israel's right to exist.
One may point out that Israel so far is denying that the Palestinians do exist.
They are not "Arabs."
"what’s building up in the Palestinians has only gotten worse."
yeah, those Jews have been so Jewy and doing all that living and breathing and existing. how dare they!?!
Kerry could only be a baggage handler in the James Baker State Department. He wouldn't be trusted to carry any messages correctly - nor remember the message received.
There's an interesting paragraph in the linked piece which notes he and Bibi talked to the point neither was really listening to what the other said. Kerry ended up misinterpreting some key Bibi points on the settlements and prisoner exchange. Details aren't Kerry's strong points either.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
Now, more than ever, we must focus feelings of love, peace and joy to both sides of this horrible conflict. Imagine the psychic waves of millions of people wishing as one: let the blame fall away and the light of a New Beginning fill the hearts of everyone in the Middle East. The Time is Now people: focus the energies of your mind and heart on soothing their psychic wounds -- how can any human heart reject such an outpouring?
Transcendental Peace Man says:
I suggest everyone takes a picture of a flower and we post them all at once as a bouquet of Love Energy: through our combined efforts the ground of Peace will become fertile once again.
When Kerry looked at the faces of the Vietnamese he saw nothing but his own moral superiority. He sees that pretty much everywhere he looks. I don't think he ever looked at the faces of the boat people--the over one million ethnic Chinese who were ethnically cleansed from Vietnam or the faces of those clinging to the struts of the last American helicopter to leave Saigon......What a load Kerry is. Would he say something like that to the Isis leader while brokering peace between the Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq.......You don't make peace with your friends but with your enemies. Therefore one must vanquish our friends in order to make peace.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
Only when we accept that the Hate in our Hearts holds back our True Joy will the World heal. Focus your Love on the heart of every Palestinian who wants peace, and help the Israelis reject their weapons that are powerless in the name of Love. We can do it, people: it is Time for our Hearts to Win the World.
In Vietnam we could, and did, just leave. True it was tough for our allies, the South Vietnamese, but that was something we could ignore.
In Israel, to state the obvious, the Israelis cannot leave. They can, and have, left Gaza, and left the Palestinians in Gaza alone, but look how that has worked out.
That Kerry cannot see the difference between Gaza and Vietnam shows, once again, what a fool he is. The perfect Secretary of State for the ship of fools running our sad country.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
Inside each one of us is the Power to stop all War and Suffering: do not keep the Power locked inside you. Think Peace.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
Through only the Power of my Heart and my Mind I once levitated for thirty seconds. Imagine if we all focused these energies and literally lifted all the Palestinians and israelis into the air all at once: how then could they even consider returning to war?
Transcendental Peace Man says:
I held a bee in my hand that did not sting: it can be done, People.
There's also the problem of seeing it from the Israeli view, which can be greatly facilitated by spending a few days in the bomb shelter with your kids.
I could see this as valid only if Kerry were saying the same to Palestinian authorities, but he won't because he might get killed for it, and he knows it won't work, so the risk is futile.
Peace is worth a great price, but no peace was ever brokered by constantly demanding that the more reasonable party become ever more reasonable. Unless, of course, one takes that to such an extreme that the more reasonable party gets killed off. I suspect that the Israelis are rather concerned about that last possibility.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
The Love of Money locks the Self into the World that Should Not Be: let go its illusionary power and there will be enough Peace for Everyone to share equally. If -- inside every bomb -- were thousands of flowers would not Peace bloom? Think it Forward, people.
I see no reason why Israel cannot relocate some 4 million Palestinians to Jordan, Egypt, and Syria.
For the same reason the United States cannot relocate 4-5 million "Native Americans" to Canada and Mexico. The Indians do not want to go, and those other countries will not take them.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
Those who do not choose Peace should be lovingly segregated from the rest of the World, so that the Process of Peace may begin unimpeded. Think it Forward, people.
The Palestinians, when given Gaza, immediately tore down and sold off the parts to the beautiful and productive greenhouses and water works.
The people of Palestine could not manufacture a bicycle if you gave them the plans and a trillion dollars. Nor a bird bath.
The Vietnamese rather ruined the analogy when they failed to take advantage of the US withdrawal by launching some missiles at California.
Do not hate those who do not choose Peace: they are Unwell, and lovingly segregating them will keep their harmful toxins to themselves. Left amongst themselves surely their Hearts would have time to contemplate why they need to live with so much Hate. Their Hate is the only thing that keeps us from True Levitation. Think it Forward, people.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
You do not have to eradicate the hornets' nest to find peace from stings: simply leave the nest aside and plant your Peace on more accommodating ground. It Can be done if you simply Wish it so. Think it Forward, people.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
I should mention that these techniques of Peace only work if we exclude the Jews. They are more than welcome to watch, of course. Think it Forward, people.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
The Problem with Jews is that their Energies conflict with the True Love of Peace. It is not their fault: you can only live with your ancestors' decisions, not change them. We will share Our Peace with them out of our Kindness and help them Heal. Think it Forward, people.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
To be Honest, perhaps the Jews should stay out of our Love and Peace Movement until things stabilize a bit: it is not their fault, but Jews have a way of complicating things. Think it Forward, people
Transcendental Peace Man says:
Perhaps our Love and Peace Movement should locate all the Jews and have them wait out the Movement in special camps. We will come back to them with Pure Hearts. Think it Forward, people.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
Those who Levitate, lead. It is that simple. Think it Forward, people.
Kerry sure gets a lot of mileage out of that four months of his life. If he'd succeeded in his attempts to avoid going to Vietnam, where would he be now?
Kerry lecturing Netanyahu, the special forces soldier, is pretty funny. It's not America. Unlike the US, all senior Israeli politicians have not only served in the military but have served in combat. Kerry forgot who he was talking to.
Maybe Netanyahu should describe the look in the terrorists eyes when he was storming the airliner they hijacked?
Transcendental Peace Man says:
While we are at it, white males are often an obstacle to the Precepts of Peace. Maybe they can sit this out awhile, until the Enlightened have things Ready. Think it Forward, people.
Unknown said...
"...the Palestinians see one goal: to kill all the Jews and destroy the State of Israel.
That's how the Palestinians see it."
In sync with how Kerry, and Dear Leader see it.
The biggest problem with the Jews is: they didn't curl up and die. Instead they built a "shitty little country" on a piece of desert, brought a taste of civilization to 7th century head choppers. If there were no Jews, head choppers would chop each other's heads off: Iraq, Syria. If there were no Jews, nobody in the world would care, e.g. decades of fighting in Africa. They might hold some sing-song concerts and made a whole lot of money for the organizers and the singers. Nobody would give a hoot, otherwise.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
With the Jews and the white males out of the way the Coming Age of Peace should come along more efficiently and Pure. I believe we should all wear capes in the New Age. Think it Forward, people.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
I am considering putting my teachings in a book that can spread my Message everywhere. I think I shall call it "My Will to Peace.". Think it Forward, people.
The problem is that the Israelis will live with a two-state solution, but the Palestinians won't. The latter will accept a two-state solution only as an interim step towards a one-state solution, that state being either 100% Islamic or being almost 100% Islamic with a small community of subservient Jews and the rest dead.
I cannot understand how people expect that Israel will accept living with a group of people who have no other intent than to see them dead and will deliberately sacrifice anyone - Palestinian, Israeli, or anyone else - to achieve that aim. If Hamas will not compromise - and if the Palestinian population will continue to permit Hamas to continue - what compromise can Israel offer?
The problem is that the Israelis will live with a two-state solution, but the Palestinians won't. The latter will accept a two-state solution only as an interim step towards a one-state solution, that state being either 100% Islamic or being almost 100% Islamic with a small community of subservient Jews and the rest dead.
I cannot understand how people expect that Israel will accept living with a group of people who have no other intent than to see them dead and will deliberately sacrifice anyone - Palestinian, Israeli, or anyone else - to achieve that aim. If Hamas will not compromise - and if the Palestinian population will continue to permit Hamas to continue - what compromise can Israel offer?
Transcendental Peace Man says:
Empty the churches and empty the synagogues and we will lose our petty divisions: we must Live Peace as One. Mosques are OK. Think it Forward, people.
Said Kerry, showing his absolute ignorance again.
It's good for Israel to understand the kind of friends they have in Mr. Ketchup and Mr. Zero.
Kerry would be more convincing if he were holding Hamas to the same standard.
The people of Palestine could not manufacture a bicycle if you gave them the plans and a trillion dollars. Nor a bird bath.
Israel doesn't allow materials to build a bicycle or a bird bath to be imported into Gaza.
But Egypt has its own troubles and it's surely not interested in taking on more. And who else would do it?
The Saudis, via Jordan?
And for the Palestinians' part, it's not clear to me why they never tried the nonviolent approach.
Two reasons:
1.)Violent jihad is hi-lighted in the quran. Jews and Christians are viewed as less than human.
2.) It is too profitable for Hamas. They are not called 'the new millionaires club' for nothing. Do you think they allow all of that aid to benefit the people. The same people that want Hamas to cease-fire because they don't want to be human shields?
Also, the Egyptian media is applauding Israel's Gaza offensive. They want the palestinians to get rid of Hamas like Egypt got rid of Morsi and the muslim brotherhood. They blame Hamas for the trouble with Israel and link them (Hamas) to the ongoing attacks on Egyptian security forces.
http://tinyurl.com/lrjlmk8
As to the post, Kerry is an embarrassment and probably why Obama picked him. Fill as many positions as possible with the most clueless, corrupt fools and the country will collapse in on itself sooner.
Seriously, a Muslim's duty to kill the Jews is exceeded by the duty to kill the Christians.
At least Jews are monotheists and share Moses law and Jewish prophets until the time of Jesus's announcements made at the BC/AD time change.
And Christians are self condemned trinitarians (worshiping 3 Gods, from one point of view) and by existence they announce a resurrected King of the Jews returning very soon who will come to judge and rule the world with a rod of iron from his capital City of Jerusalem. Muslims understand that Christ-ians are the Muslim's actual enemy and that opposing their works is the Muslim religion's raison d'etre.
"And for the Palestinians' part, it's not clear to me why they never tried the nonviolent approach."
Because using that approach no Jews will die and Israel will continue to exist.
"And for the Palestinians' part, it's not clear to me why they never tried the nonviolent approach."
Because using that approach no Jews will die and Israel will continue to exist.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
I am not feeling your Energies, People. Perhaps the Jews are a bigger obstacle than I previously thought: some plans may need to change. Think it Forward, people.
Look in a mirror---And see a traitor. The "Swift Boaters" were right.
All that is needed for peace there is for those critters to give up following the horrid teachings of the Koran.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
I believe the Negativity of Guns is creating a Peace Cloud preventing Love to Rain. Guns should only be in the hands of those removing guns from hands. We will get there. Think it Forward, people.
Transcendental Peace Man reminded me, I dreamed I saw the bomber jet planes riding shotgun in the skies turning into butterflies above our nation.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
This may be a lot for you to absorb: I will drink some almond milk before I return. Think it Forward, people.
re:BM3K
>> I held a bee in my hand that did not sting: it can be done, People.
Simple to do...male bees have no stinger.
It is truly amazing what a jackass Kerry is. He's a gift that keeps on giving -- just when you think he's said about the dumbest thing you can imagine him saying, he tops it.
SomeoneHasToSayIt said...
In looking at the world, Kerry always puts on the long face.
A horse walks into a bar, and the bartender says "why the long face?"
Then John Kerry walks into the same bar, and the bartender says "get the fuck outa here."
I would like to hear Kerry's opinion on how for the first time in history, Mosul no longer has Christians. ISIS told them to convert, pay the jizya, or die. About 10,000 have fled. Churches and cathedrals are being burned to the ground. What about the looks on their faces as his boss is partly responsible for their demise? Jihad and the murder and mayhem it brings, is on the march around the world and he selectively outrages over Israel protecting itself.
While Obama plays golf, refuses to enforce immigration laws, arms terrorists in Syria (where ISIS originated). And the muslim brotherhood he has on as advisors, tweet that the U.S. is an islamic nation and the caliphate is inevitable.
Kerry really wasn't in Viet Nam long enough to learn anything. He wanted his three Purple Hearts (writing himself up for the equivalent of rose thorn scratches--including at least one self inflicted wound when he dropped a percussion grenade in a basket of rice and had his backside peppered by rice) and a Silver Star (which he wrote himself up for).
In country less than six weeks and then out of there--leaving his erstwhile comrades in arms (the later Swift Boaters) to stay and finish their year long or 13 month long tours of duty.
The words "Viet Nam" in Kerry's mouth are an obscenity.
His real name is Jean Fraud Kerry.
Lauderdale Vet said...
"Palestinians are an invented people"
- Newt Gingrich
7/21/14, 9:09 AM
Well, they are.
Blogger Hagar said...
Much is made of the Palestinians' denial of Israel's right to exist.
One may point out that Israel so far is denying that the Palestinians do exist.
They are not "Arabs."
7/21/14, 9:39 AM
You are right part right. They are actually of Jordan.
http://www.science.co.il/History-Palestine.php
It was only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria, that the myth of an Arab Palestinian nation was created and marketed worldwide. Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians. There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture distinct from that of all the Arabs in the area. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. "Palestinians" are Arabs indistinguishable from Arabs throughout the Middle East. The great majority of Arabs in greater Palestine and Israel share the same culture, language and religion.
Palestinian was invented to allow Arabs to hate Israel. All of the so called Palestine refugees are only such because the other Arab countries refused to allow them entry. Jordan specifically broke their end of the deal they made with the English to give those displaced Arabs entry when part of that land was given to the Jews.
Transcendental Peace Man says:
I suggest everyone takes a picture of a flower and we post them all at once as a bouquet of Love Energy: through our combined efforts the ground of Peace will become fertile once again.
I am waiting with bated breath for the collision between Transcendental Peace Man and the Neighborhood Avenger. I suspect it will not be pretty.
John Henry
And for the Palestinians' part, it's not clear to me why they never tried the nonviolent approach.
I was very pro-Palestinian in my youth, and used to think the same thing. I finally realized that the answer is: because they seek the destruction of Israel, not the creation of Palestine. They could have had Palestine anytime in the last twenty five years. All they have to do is renounce terrorism and recognize israel....which they will never voluntarily do. A significant reason is that their religion demands differently.
Israel doesn't allow materials to build a bicycle or a bird bath to be imported into Gaza.
But somehow , they do manage to import the materials to build rockets. Funny how that happens.
plus Israelis get attacked when they provide good jobs to Palestinians...like that soda stream company.
But as messy as that all is, I still don't see why the U.S. needs to be involved in that region in any way. Israel is a first world country, and we're generations away from the day when they had to fear being invaded. They can handle terrorists at least as well as we can, and no other state would dare launch an unconventional weapon at them for fear of retaliation. Why do they need our aid and support, and what are we actually getting out of that?
7/21/14, 8:58 AM "
Brando
I wonder the same thing about NATO, South Korea, Japan and most of all why we spend so much on the oil tick countries.
Garage
Apparently you have issues in reading maps. Gaza also borders Egypt. So if there is a blockade it must also be the Egyptians that are blockading Gaza as well. It's a funny sort of blockade,trying to keep weapons out while providing electricity and food and other civilian items. I don't recall the US Navy being that generous to the Germans and Japanese during the unpleasantness from 7 December 1941 to 2 September 1945.
That first picture isn't too far off from how I look when I walk my dog in the morning.
I wouldn't call it "fashion," more like "what's closest."
Oops, wrong thread. Time for "super deleter!"
There and here. Please.
I've watched some Vice dispatches from Gaza AND I have a Jordanian friend (who lived in Baghdad under Saddam and has Palestinian connections, not Hamas...everyone looks down on the Palestinians). I ALSO know folks who know folks who've worked at State. Did I mention I've read some books AND I've met a handful of people from Israel.
So there, John Kerry.
Oh yes, I've known 'the other.'
I can channel the loony crones of Code Pink in my sleep.
My rolodex has a rolodex.
My back channels have back channels.
I put the business cards of world leaders I don't like in the raffle bowls at restaurants.
I can rest the triangle of Peace atop the arc of History bending towards Justice in my mind's eye.
Let's do this.
Garage the world traveler: "Israel doesn't allow materials......" blah blah blah.
Hey rocket scientist, care to let us know how Israel stops the terrorists from importing materials over the Egyptian/Gaza border?
Again, garage should cease posting until he obtains adult supervision.
Garage:
Moron, Israel also does not allow for the importation of missiles into Gaza.
If the Palestinians were dying to manufacture anything they could get the materials. The product of Hamas is death to the Jews. Which is what you appear to want.
But seriously folks, do we just sit and wait as most of these policies bet big on peace and return very little except alienation of allies, emboldened adversaries, greater instability etc?
I'm guessing our inexperienced peace activist in chief isn't about to change much, if at all.
His cheerleaders and fellow-travelers will blame it on anything but their own intentions and ideals, so I guess we just sit and wait it out.
Meanwhile...
1) Just think how much better of we would be if Transcendental Peace Man were secretary of state instead of John Kerry. It gives me goose-bumps to think about it. Unless he already is Transcendental Peace Man...
2) Honestly, is there anyone else out there who wishes that we could bring back Henry Kissinger as secretary of state? Hell, even ancient and halting he would do better than the clown-car this administration has offered up.
One day the Israelies are going to give up caring what the world thinks...and it just won't be pretty.
Who calls in advance before bombing a susected enemy building?
Israel! Kind of a crazy way to run a war.
If the Palestinians were dying to manufacture anything they could get the materials.
Moron: The blockade prevents any construction materials from entering Gaza.
This list includes:
Portland cement and lime (in bulk, bags or barrels)
Natural and Quarry aggregates and all varieties of gravel
Ready concrete
Precast concrete elements and products
Steel elements and/or construction products
Iron for foundations and columns, at any diameter (including wielded steel nets)
Steel cables of any width
Forms for construction elements (plastics or galvanized iron)
Industrialized forms for casting concrete
Plastic or composite beams more than 4 mm thick
Thermal isolation materials and products
Blocs (at any width) - Concrete; Silicate; Ytong or its equivalent; or gypsum
Materials and products for sealing structures
Asphalt and its components (Bitumen, emulsion) in aggregate or packaged
Steel elements or framing products for construction
Cast concrete elements and products for drainage over 1 m in diameter
Precast units and sea-borne containers
Vehicles, excluding private cars and including 4X4 vehicles and other categories of motor vehicles liable to be used in terror activities
Lumber beams and boards more than 2 cm thick, (liable to be used in "offensive" tunneling aimed at penetrating Israeli territory), unless incorporated in finished products
Specific procedures, on a case by case basis, will be established so as to permit the transfer of such lumber for other purposes in Gaza.
"Israel doesn't allow materials to build a bicycle or a bird bath to be imported into Gaza."
Says the expert who monitors Palestinian news all day. garage knows that all that concrete used to build tunnels could not have been allowed into Gaza for building homes and shops. No, he knows what's going on. He reads Hamas.com to get it.
"1.)Violent jihad is hi-lighted in the quran. Jews and Christians are viewed as less than human.
2.) It is too profitable for Hamas. They are not called 'the new millionaires club' for nothing. Do you think they allow all of that aid to benefit the people. The same people that want Hamas to cease-fire because they don't want to be human shields?"
I know Hamas certainly has its own agenda and wants dead Jews far more than living, free Arabs. But for the rank and file Palestinians--who may have hatred for Israel but at least understand that there's no way they're going to win a war against a well armed, well trained army when most Arabs have stones and Molotov cocktails--it still is odd that no significant number of them have latched onto nonviolence as a way of meeting their goal of a free Palestinian state.
Look at the example of India--there were many violent groups trying to fight the British, but over time it was Gandhi's tactics that brought enough pressure from the British public to make continued occupation untenable. I don't think most Israelis want to hold on to the West Bank, and all the problems that brings, but continue to do so simply because they believe pulling out completely will lead to a Hamas-run terror state that would grow into a more serious threat than it currently is. And as long as Hamas is the most powerful single faction in Palestine, there's no reason to believe that wouldn't be the case.
The question in my mind is that this isn't the Palestinians' first time at this. This is the third or fourth Intifada, the first one launched when most of today's revolters' parents were born. The Arab casualty tolls always greatly outnumber the Israelis', and each violent upswing accomplishes precisely nothing for the rank and file Arab--the place is still incredibly poor, they have no independent state, and public services (hospitals, etc.) are still atrocious. How could this not turn a large number of them towards trying a new tactic and rejecting Hamas?
I don't buy the Koran argument because I don't think religious fanatics kill due to the religion so much as use the religion to justify their killing. The hatred is there already, I understand that--but how many more uprisings will it take before they decide to try a new tactic?
"I wonder the same thing about NATO, South Korea, Japan and most of all why we spend so much on the oil tick countries."
Absolutely--though the oil countries we can at least make the argument that stability in that region helps ensure the oil lanes stay open. But considering the beneficiaries of that oil tend to be Asia and Europe more than us, you'd think they could pick up some of the tab. Being the world's policeman is all the worse when the policeman has to pay his own salary.
As someone once said (of Palestinian attitudes toward peace talks), "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."
John Kerry just can't shut up about Vietnam, can he?
It must be seared (seared!) into his memory.
(Okay, yeah, that's unfair. A little.
But so's the fact that Kerry has a position of any relevance or power at all.)
garage: "Moron: The blockade prevents any construction materials from entering Gaza."
LOL
Garage doubles down on stupid.
Not. A. Surprise.
What a perfect automaton garage is for the leftist cause.
According to garage, all those tunnels built with materials he claims can't arrive in Gaza must simply be illusions.
Illusions.
John Kerry is colossal ass hat.
He should be laughed off the world stage. What a pathetic fraud.
He reads Hamas.com to get it.
Hahaha. Wikipedia, dude. Wikipedia. You too can venture from Drudge and Gateway Pundit to find out such things. You just have to have the will.
Garage"
Jesus but you are a dense motherfucker.
How do the Palestinians have missiles if the Israelis prohibit their import?
"It can’t be solved if you can’t see it how they see it.”
Kerry is right, but he doesn't know why. The material issues between Israel and the Arabs could be resolved with a few e-mails. The emotional issue cannot be. It's that issue, which he - and Israeli peaceniks, and well-intentioned mediators from the U.S. and Europe - can't see.
As Richard Landes explains in this article, Israel's 1948 creation was a profound humiliation to Moslem Arabs, especially the Palestinians: the Nakhba ("catastrophe").
For them, the existence of Israel is intolerable shame; it denies them honor and manhood, to be regained only by Israel's destruction. No Palestinian leader has ever dared to concede that Israel has a right to exist; he would be destroyed.
Jabotinsky wrote (presciently) that Arabs would accept Jewish predominance only when it was forced on them by a "wall of bayonets". Then Jews and Arabs could live together in peace.
All efforts to win that acceptance by persuasion would fail. And they have.
There is no "win-win solution" acceptable to them. They will abandon their dream of revanche only when forced to, and only then will peace (and Palestinian nationhood) be possible.
That is what Kerry (and also Netanyahu) don't see.
Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians.
Actually, the Jews came from Iraq. Abraham's home town was Ur, just a few clicks up the road from Nasiriyah where Jessica Lynch and her unit got ambushed.
And as far as I can tell the only time in history prior to 1948 that there has been a state governed by Jews in Palestine was the Kingdom of David and Solomon, ca. 900 B.C., and that did not last long.
"It seems clear to me that the Palestinians see one goal: to kill all the Jews and destroy the State of Israel.
That's how the Palestinians see it."
Exactly! And that is how all Muslim radicals, reguardless of where they are, feel.
Kind of like "Independence Day" movie... the aliens just wanted them all to DIE.
And so all the Muslims. They teach it night and day to all the young kids in the Middle East.
Oh, look, Garage is lying by omission again.
Conveniently deleted from his list (available here) is this header:
"List No. 2: Construction Items and Materials to be Allowed Entry into Gaza only for PA-authorized Projects Implemented by the International Community
Israel will only permit their entry into Gaza to facilitate construction projects in Gaza which have been authorized by the PA and implemented and monitored by the international community. The often cited reason is that such materials could be used by Hamas for military purposes (building bunkers, fortifying positions and digging tunnels)
This list includes:
Portland cement and lime (in bulk, bags or barrels)
Natural and Quarry aggregates and all varieties of gravel
Ready concrete
..."
Not banned. Allowed with restrictions. And for some reason Garage conveniently ignores Egypt's role in the blockade.
Peter said..."no one has the standing to do it."
I've long believed the Chinese hold the key to Mideast peace due to their lack of religious baggage. Unfortunately, there's little to suggest they could be coaxed into taking an interest.
Garage: "Israel doesn't allow materials to build a bicycle or a bird bath to be imported into Gaza."
Right. They only allow rockets and tunnel digging implements to get in, dumbass.
Say, garage, did you ever see the destroyed greenhouses? How about the underground shelters at the kibbutz below the Golan Heights where Israeli kids slept every fucking night of their lives to avoid Syrian artillery barrages. They're still there.
garage mahal said...Moron: The blockade prevents any construction materials from entering Gaza.
Israel has been easing import restrictions on construction materials since 2010. Even Al Jazeera acknowledges this, why don't you?
It is correct that a popular uprising cannot "win" against a modern state army, but neither can a state army equipped with the latest in nation-state weaponry prevail against a popular uprising.
Cf. the Brits in Northern Ireland, etc.
the dirty little secret is that the Palestinian population has been force fed hate propaganda, on TV, newscasts, schools and even children's television shows. Of course they "hate" what they are taught to hate.
As for Viet Nam: does Kerry realize the millions who fled that country after the peacenicks decided that the communists would make a utopia? Ten million boat people spoke with their feet don't count I guess.
The only dirty secret is that Jews and Arabs are the same ethnic group who have fetishized fratricide ever since the area went from the Holocene Optimum Garden of Eden to desert blight. They all are poisoned by the lack of water, the hot sun and dusty air.
The Holy Land My Ass.
I think Kerry is lying so any retort is pointless.
Howard: "The only dirty secret is that Jews and Arabs are the same ethnic group who have fetishized fratricide ...."
Of Ishmael son of Abraham, father of the Arabs:
"He shall be a wild donkey of a man, his hand against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen." Gen. 16:12 (ESV)
The "fetishized fratricide" pretty much fulfills God's prophecy through the progeny of Ishmael. The Jews? Not so much.
John Kerry was on board (briefly) a gunboat. The only Vietnamese faces he saw up close were Tu Do Street whores or the people whose huts he was burnung down or whose baby he had just ordered shot.
Hagar said:
"Actually, the Jews came from Iraq. Abraham's home town was Ur, just a few clicks up the road from Nasiriyah where Jessica Lynch and her unit got ambushed."
By this logic, everyone of us needs to move back to Africa, because that's where the first humans come from...
Generally, a people is said to "come from" the first place where they were identifiably a people - and for Jews, that's Israel in the time of the Judges.
"And as far as I can tell the only time in history prior to 1948 that there has been a state governed by Jews in Palestine was the Kingdom of David and Solomon, ca. 900 B.C., and that did not last long."
The state existed for a few centuries before than, and lasted until about 500 BCE. Then there was another state governed by Jews from about 70 later, which lasted until about 135 CE.
If you are only counting the time when the state was completely independent, you could reduce it to about 1150 BCE-600 BCE and then 300 BCE-50 or so. That's still quite a long time, and I'd argue that you should actually include the time when the land was under the Persian, Alexandrian, Syrian and Roman empires, since it did not lose its identity as a home of the Jews in those time.
Amichel;
"If the allies could relocate 8 million Germans from their ancestral homes in the East to the new borders of Germany to the West of the Oder"
Interesting this;
1. The process itself has been declared one of those pesky crimes against humanity, for which the like nazis were hanged in Nuremberg.
2. Notice the euphemism 'relocate'
3. No mention of the why of this "relocation" (Stalin got to keep the loot he got out of the Hitler-Stalin pact, the polish people got compensated with a big piece of Germany)
Now I find this comment interesting because the nazi-like disregard for the victims of Stalin, or should I call him "FDR's dear Uncle Joe", is one of the main reasons the "West" is in the state it is.
Oh, BTW, if it's so easy to change borders then why not give in to "La Razza"?
The hatred is there already, I understand that--but how many more uprisings will it take before they decide to try a new tactic?
As long as the vast majority of Palestinians are Muslim?
Never. They can't change, their religion forbids it.
And for the Palestinians' part, it's not clear to me why they never tried the nonviolent approach.
What would a nonviolent approach to genocide be? It seems to me to be a contradiction.
[...]it still is odd that no significant number of them have latched onto nonviolence as a way of meeting their goal of a free Palestinian state.
"A free Palestinian state" requires the destruction of Israel and the ethnic cleansing or murder of its Jewish population. Again, how do you go about creating the state "from the river to the sea", to use the popular phrase, using "nonviolence"? (You do realize that is the goal, not a state consisting of Gaza and the West Bank, right? If not, look at a map of "Palestine" disseminated by Palestinians. Or just listen. You ask the people and they will tell you. This isn't one of those things about the Middle East that's mysterious. The Palestinian goal is the destruction of Israel.)
The two goals are not compatible. That's why they don't use nonviolence.
Kerry's premise simply makes a strong case for Israel to therefore pursue Hamas's unconditional surrender. Kerry is making the case that the hatred is so great it will always rekindle the flames of war.
The Aliies fought until Germany and Japan both agreed to unconditional surrender. That undeniable defeat was the only thing that quenched Nazism and Bushidoism...both death cults.
Apparently garage is jim dandy with Hamas rocketing Israeli elementary schools which they've been doing for years even though, amazingly enough, Israel does not undertake any military actions from them.
Garbage only reads and repeats talking points from "Far Left for Dummies." Pleqse don't expect him to use the type of logic we expect from a 12 year old.
It's like teaching pigs to sing. It only hurts your ears and frustrates the pig.
I did not say anyone should go back to anywhere. Such is futile, since no one is going to go.
"The Jews" hold Israel by right of conquest, which is good title - if you can keep it. Always has been.
Israel itself from the 1948 "War of Liberation," and the "Occupied Territories" from the 1967 war.
However, this being the 21st century rather than the 1st, the conquerors are supposed to make "civilized" arrangements for the indigenous population. It is no longer acceptable to just slaughter the men and absorb the women and children into the tribe.
Israel doesn't allow materials to build tunnels and rockets to be imported into Gaza.
FIFY
Typical bleeding heart Kerry lecturing the Israeli's on compassion and warfare. No small wonder the Israeli's have openly called Kerry an asshole to his face on numerous occasions. Wow, our country dodged a bullet when we re-elected Bush.
"What would a nonviolent approach to genocide be? It seems to me to be a contradiction."
That's only true to the extent that extremists like Hamas speak for every Palestinian. Most Palestinians I suspect would be happy with either the rights accorded to citizens of Israel (as Israeli Arabs currently have) or their own separate state. Sure, they'd probably like to have their state include all of what's currently Israel, but considering that's just not happening most Palestinians would be content with their own land.
What's clear is this status quo isn't sustainable--it requires repeated punitive raids, occupation, and the constant fear that one day the attacks will get far more lethal. And that's just the negatives for the Israelis. The Arabs are in a constantly impoverished state, with little political autonomy and the most influential force speaking for them being a terror organization.
As they say though, if something can't go on forever, it won't.
extremists like Hamas
The mistake you make is in thinking Hamas is "extremist". It isn't. Its viewpoint - that Israel must be destroyed - is mainstream.
You may "suspect" otherwise, but unless that suspicion is backed up with data - data strong enough to countervail the killings of Israelis who get lost and wander into Palestinian-controlled territory, the spontaneous block parties when a terrorist attack on children succeeds, the willingness of the human shields to accept rocket launchers in their houses, the bare fact that Hamas was elected by a majority of Gazans - it doesn't say anything about Palestinians, only about your assumptions and mindset.
(That you can't imagine a genocidal goal could be mainstream political thinking anywhere speaks well of you, but it doesn't mean it isn't so.)
I personally think that Israel ending its occupation in favor of the Tunisians in the early 90s is a candidate for "stupidest foreign policy decision of the 20th century", and that is a very high bar. It directly required their withdrawal from civic life and law enforcement, changed the educational system resulting in poisoning going on two generations now with hate, and - because of the (utterly predictable) increase in attacks once the PLO started running the place - Israeli restrictions on movement and imports have actually increased, not decreased. Bringing in a terrorist organization to run a quasi-national government will just never end well.
Just in case you come back and read this, Brando, here is a recent poll which shows that 68.4% of Gazans agree that the Palestinian national goal should be "to work toward reclaiming all of historic Palestine, from the river to the sea". That would be the 1948 British Mandate territory then called "Palestine", from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.
It means over two-thirds of Gazans want the destruction of Israel to be the top priority of their national policy.
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