Althouse: "If a man wants to bring a rival down a peg or two, he simply has to hold the door open for him."

२ मार्च, २०१४

"If a man wants to bring a rival down a peg or two, he simply has to hold the door open for him."

"While the gesture of goodwill might be seen as gentlemanly when it is done for a woman, psychologists claim it is likely to diminish a man’s self esteem. Since it is unusual for men to hold open the door for men, it could be taken to imply that the recipient looks needy and vulnerable. The act is likely to clash with their masculine identity and leave them deflated...."

Things I learned reading Pandagon, which I did this morning because, as noted earlier "in search of blogging inspiration... I impulsively opened all the bookmarks in my file labeled 'left.'"

I look forward to a new era of male domination in which men aggressively vie for superiority by being polite and considerate to other men. It's like a "dick move" but not dickish at all.

६७ टिप्पण्या:

Michael K म्हणाले...: "Professor Janice Kelly and Megan McCarty, of Purdue University in Indiana, suggested.

Their study, published in the journal Social Influence"

All I needed to see.; २/३/१४, ९:३२ AM
madAsHell म्हणाले...: it could be taken to imply

It's a warning that your bullshit meter is about to red line.; २/३/१४, ९:३६ AM
Patrick म्हणाले...: Since it is unusual for men to hold open the door for men,

Nonsense. I see this and do this all the time.; २/३/१४, ९:४० AM
Paul Kirchner म्हणाले...: In my experience it's not at all uncommon for men to hold a door for other men rather than allowing it to slam in their faces. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure I hold a door for women significantly more often than I do for other men; moreover, women will often hold a door for me if I'm right behind them.

Someone is trying to make something out of nothing.; २/३/१४, ९:४२ AM
peacelovewoodstock म्हणाले...: If a man allows himself to be brought down a peg or two by the act of another man holding a door for him, he's already pretty low on the scale of pegs.

A confident man is impervious to such real or imagined slights. There are bigger fish to fry.

Of course this "research" will resonate with the thoroughly beta, and to the extent that they take it the least bit seriously, it will ony reinforce their beta-hood.; २/३/१४, ९:४३ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Patrick said...
Since it is unusual for men to hold open the door for men,

Nonsense. I see this and do this all the time.

I call BS as well. I often hold one of a series of doors open for a group of men. Somebody else ends up in front and catches the next.

It's feminist psycho babble...; २/३/१४, ९:४३ AM
MarkD म्हणाले...: The value of a degree in the Social Sciences has been reaffirmed.; २/३/१४, ९:४६ AM
Gahrie म्हणाले...: shorter:

men bad

women good; २/३/१४, ९:४७ AM
Gahrie म्हणाले...: shorter:

men bad

women good; २/३/१४, ९:४८ AM
Known Unknown म्हणाले...: Even men are terrible at being nice.; २/३/१४, ९:५० AM
rhhardin म्हणाले...: What's the masculine of Peggy; २/३/१४, ९:५१ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: For people so thoroughly troubled by men, they sure do talk about them a lot.; २/३/१४, ९:५३ AM
Paddy O म्हणाले...: Manners and "society" have always been used to distinguish social position.

Which knife to use, how to wear certain clothes, etc. and so on. Still to this day, put a poor person at a fancy dinner party, nice clothes, etc. What will be a source of shame and maybe shaming? People's politeness and manners, treating him in a way that he doesn't know the rules for treating others or acting in such a setting.

A show like Downton Abbey illustrates this. The butler is staff but his mastery of manners distinguishes him, sometimes above guests. The lower ranking staff bungle the manners and treated poorly.

Jeeves and Wooster is another example. We all know Jeeves is superior to Wooster, because Jeeves mastered the manners and uses that.; २/३/१४, ९:५३ AM
Howard म्हणाले...: I love holding the door open for grim-faced feminists. It's a Politenessman dick move. If they don't say thanks, I reply "Why, You're Welcome"; २/३/१४, ९:५३ AM
Paddy O म्हणाले...: Which means women do it too, in the ways women are supposed to express civility.; २/३/१४, ९:५३ AM
rhhardin म्हणाले...: Stephen Potter, Gamesmanship, Lifesmanship, etc., has a better study of bringing down pegs.

Sociologists even cite him.

Doors are not suggested.; २/३/१४, ९:५४ AM
Johanna Lapp म्हणाले...: What pisses me off is the man who grabs the door and enters before me, then stands on the threshold with his trailing arm holding the door open at a shallow angle. I'm forced to squeeze through a half open door, brushing the front of the goofus standing in my way and surrendering face time. It's totally a dick move.

It feels more like a hands-free grope than a gallant gesture, especially if I have to steer grocery bags through the narrow opening.

A gentleman holds the door open from the outside, and enters after the lady is safely through.; २/३/१४, १०:०० AM
khesanh0802 म्हणाले...: Is it really so terrible to display good manners? I thought not.; २/३/१४, १०:०५ AM
Strick म्हणाले...: Interesting. Actually, I recall something like this suggested a couple of decades past. It's a sign of status to open the door for others or offer to let them leave an elevator first, pay the check, etc. The male higher in the pecking order does it because he has the power to do so. A code out of chivalry followed by "servant leaders".

Say what you will, you'll never get my father-in-law, the retired CEO, to go through door before you or let you pay the bill for dinner.; २/३/१४, १०:०६ AM
Lyle म्हणाले...: I don't feel less of a man when a man holds the door open for me.

I won't hurry ahead to hold the door open for a man though.; २/३/१४, १०:१२ AM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: I wonder if this published work helped one of both of the authors achieve tenure.

I hold doors open for both sexes all the time. It's called politeness. Perhaps Profs. Kelly and McCarty should consider that. They must be from NYC were politeness is rare.; २/३/१४, १०:१२ AM
Larry J म्हणाले...: Patrick said...
Since it is unusual for men to hold open the door for men,

Nonsense. I see this and do this all the time.

So do I. Frankly, anyone who gets upset over a common courtesy is an asshole. I routinely hold open doors for both men and womem. Both men and women routinely hold open doors for me. It depends on who reaches the door first. The response is "Thanks." Perhaps the majority of people I encounter here in Alabama aren't assholes.; २/३/१४, १०:१२ AM
Michael म्हणाले...: What planet do these dipshit academics live on? Men routinely hold the door for other men. What an absurd article.

I would like to stop a swinging door on one or both of these assholes.; २/३/१४, १०:१४ AM
Michael म्हणाले...: What planet do these dipshit academics live on? Men routinely hold the door for other men. What an absurd article.

I would like to stop a swinging door on one or both of these assholes.; २/३/१४, १०:१६ AM
mikesixes म्हणाले...: I actually did a "study" on this very subject when I was in 8th grade. I found that when 2 people approach a door together, the one who's on the hinge side of the door steps ahead slightly and pulls the door open, and holds it for the other. If the 2 people are not together, but just happen to get there at about the same time, the one who gets there first holds the door for the other. There was little or no gender bias to the results. My judgement was that it is really mostly a practical matter, with the only social component being a desire not to be rude by blocking someone's access to the door. Of course, this was 47 years ago. I wonder if it's too late to submit my paper to Social Influence?; २/३/१४, १०:२१ AM
traditionalguy म्हणाले...: This is not a subject women understand at all.

The dominance signals from other men to a man new in the group are always there: 1)putting a hand on your shoulder, 2) pointing a direct finger while speaking to you, 3) talking to others as if you are not there, 4) insisting on picking up the dinner tab.

My theory is that the imaginary authority pecking order needs to know where to put you so the group can relax.

Your coming on with an easy, open and sensitive smile seems to encourage such tests from the dominant men. Abrupt and Rude responsive behaviors are one way to reply. Out manoeuvering them by doing the same dominance moves is a female loved response to take, but it settles nothing.

Among men respect is usually another word for healthy fear.; २/३/१४, १०:२६ AM
Henry म्हणाले...: Another way to bring down a rival is to piss on his shoes.

Study that!

I'm sure someone has.; २/३/१४, १०:३५ AM
The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...: I look forward to a new era of male domination in which men aggressively vie for superiority by being polite and considerate to other men.

Politics would be changed forever,...; २/३/१४, १०:४० AM
Big Mike म्हणाले...: Since it is unusual for men to hold open the door for men, it could be taken to imply that the recipient looks needy and vulnerable.

Looks like a couple of female professors reasoning from zero data. As usual.; २/३/१४, १०:४० AM
Hagar म्हणाले...: Entrance doors on commercial buildings have to open outward, so that the people inside can escape in case of fire.

Entrance doors on family residences have to open inward, so that it will be easier for police or fire dept. to break down the doors when they need to.

Of course this also makes it easier for thieves and robbers, and I would think police and fire trucks carry equipment that will easily break down just about any residential entrance door, regardless of which way it is hinged, but what the heck ...; २/३/१४, १०:४५ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: I'm afraid I just don't "get" this at all.

If I wanted to be a smart ass, I could say that I EXPECT others, male or female, to open and hold open a door for me, as it is more important that I get through the door first.

But the fact is it is simply politeness: as so many others have said out here: you get to a door just before someone else does, you open the door and invite them to walk on through ahead of you.
If a guy is intimidated by another guy opening the door for him, I suspect that guy is intimidated by an awful lot of things in Life.; २/३/१४, १०:४७ AM
RecChief म्हणाले...: I think that is BS. You ever see a General open a door for himself?

Well said Jimmy; २/३/१४, १०:५२ AM
Bob Ellison म्हणाले...: I try to open car and building doors for women. My father taught me to do that; once when my brother and I jumped in the car before our parents, he said something like "Boys, GET out of the car and OPEN THE DOOR FOR YOUR MOTHER."

These days, women tend to act a little surprised at unsolicited door-opening. If an employee at a hotel or an Appleby's does it, that's perfectly expected, but most women express pleasant surprise when I do it.

Men don't react big-time. They say "thanks". I think men think of it as kind of like lending a hand on the playing field to someone on the ground. It's just being a good sport.; २/३/१४, १०:५६ AM
Biff म्हणाले...: I've never had a man berate me for holding a door open for him, but, in my university town, twice I have been insulted in angry, vulgar terms for sexism by women who obviously were struggling with packages when I held the door open for them. I've mentioned this to other men on campus, and it turns out that I am not alone in my experience. I wonder if men actually hold the door open for other men more often than they hold a door for a woman on campuses like mine. Presumably, that, in itself, is a microaggression against women.; २/३/१४, ११:०७ AM
Hagar म्हणाले...: When the door opens toward you, open it and remain outside while allowing women and children to pass through.

When the door opens away from you, open it, pass through first, and hold it open while standing well to the side while women and children pass through.; २/३/१४, ११:०७ AM
Biff म्हणाले...: PS. I almost never thought of holding doors in gender context until I was in a university environment. I always held doors open for men and women, and I often had doors held open for me by men and women. It was always a matter of convenience and mutual respect, not one of status. (I guess the one caveat is that I suspect that it is far less likely for women to hold the door open for others, male or female, than it is for men to hold open doors. That might make for an interesting study.); २/३/१४, ११:१३ AM
Biff म्हणाले...: PPS. Of course there are the women who are truly delighted when a man opens the door, especially on a date, and, of course, there are the men who use traditional manners for creepy or oppressive purposes. This could get into a long discussion of the purpose of rules and customs, for good and for ill, for mediating individual interactions in a positive way, or for ensuring that groups know their places. Now I regret even joining this thread, and I'll go back to my Sunday snow shoveling.; २/३/१४, ११:१८ AM
rhhardin म्हणाले...: twice I have been insulted in angry, vulgar terms for sexism by women who obviously were struggling with packages

Shopping, probably.; २/३/१४, ११:२१ AM
Illuninati म्हणाले...: Althouse posted:
"Why do men want to be smarter than their women?"

Leading question. Who said men do want to be smarter than their women? I have known men who would love to marry up in the IQ department. Just as often it is the women who don't want to marry down to lower intelligence men.; २/३/१४, ११:२१ AM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent म्हणाले...: Further proof (as if any was needed) that women have no idea what men are actually thinking. So many women seem to live in a world of unwarranted assumptions that are more about what they need to believe than actual reality,.; २/३/१४, ११:४१ AM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: Illuninati said…"Althouse posted: 'Why do men want to be smarter than their women?' Leading question."

I agree. Please be clear that my post with that title has those words in quotes, and the quote comes from Glenn Reynolds.

"Who said men do want to be smarter than their women? I have known men who would love to marry up in the IQ department. Just as often it is the women who don't want to marry down to lower intelligence men."

Well, the post of mine that Glenn linked to was about some research that said that, which I don't even assume is true.

I agree that many men, especially those who are secure in their masculinity and accomplished in some ways, love women who many very well score better on an IQ test (which pretty much nobody actually takes!).; २/३/१४, ११:४३ AM
oneredquilt म्हणाले...: I think holding the door open for somebody else is just being polite.

But I also figure that if they go in first and something bad happens to them when they get inside, I will probably have time to get away.; २/३/१४, ११:४६ AM
Seeing Red म्हणाले...: Gotta publish crap to keep their jobs.

Sounds like 60's thinking to me. They don't get out much. Another barrier falls.; २/३/१४, ११:४९ AM
Seeing Red म्हणाले...: Biff, that happened to my dad. His response was "chivalry isn't dead."; २/३/१४, ११:५१ AM
rhhardin म्हणाले...: I agree that many men, especially those who are secure in their masculinity and accomplished in some ways, love women who many very well score better on an IQ test (which pretty much nobody actually takes!).

Masculine is the diminutive of mas, male.; २/३/१४, ११:५२ AM
Mary Beth म्हणाले...: I think their sample must lack diversity. Men holding doors open for women and other men is common in the southern US and not an insult. It's common in plenty of other countries, where it also, isn't an insult.; २/३/१४, ११:५४ AM
Mary Beth म्हणाले...: Oh, their sample was students at Purdue.; २/३/१४, ११:५६ AM
Joe Schmoe म्हणाले...: So chivarly is not dead. Angry feminists are just trying to stab it to death.; २/३/१४, १२:०३ PM
LordSomber म्हणाले...: I'm afraid I just don't "get" this at all.

It's from Pandagon. That's all you need to "get."; २/३/१४, १२:०६ PM
Seeing Red म्हणाले...: What did they do, stand outside the locker rooms?; २/३/१४, १२:०६ PM
Scott म्हणाले...: Here in the penumbra of New York City, after 9/11/01, people started opening doors for each other more, I guess as an expression of mutual kindness and solidarity.

That culture never left. People realized that if you're standing 50 feet ahead of somebody and you hold the door and look back, you're forcing them to go through the door. The door holder is in control and New Yorkers like control over something in their lives.

The dick move, then, is to turn and go in a different direction.

(I didn't realize that Pandagon existed after that rabid misandrist Amanda Marcotte stopped blogging there.); २/३/१४, १२:०७ PM
Seeing Red म्हणाले...: Pretty much, Bob. I say thank you, I return the favor and open doors since I was there first and raised my kids to say thank you as well.; २/३/१४, १२:०७ PM
Seeing Red म्हणाले...: If feminists with their arms full don't want doors open, then the should use their elbows to press the handicap button.; २/३/१४, १२:०९ PM
Matt म्हणाले...: What other conclusion could they reach? If they said, "Hey, we are going to study whether having the door held for a man by a man impacts their ego!" and found the answer to be "no" then I think people would have said, "Well, that was a waste of time." No one would care as they would all say, "Well, duh!" So there conclusion had to be "Yes!" to justify the study in the first place.

An alternate headline could have been "Purdue Researchers Run Out of Things to Study."; २/३/१४, १२:११ PM
Mary Beth म्हणाले...: What about elevator doors?; २/३/१४, १२:२६ PM
Bruce Hayden म्हणाले...: This is not a subject women understand at all.

I think that Trad has some good points. Among almost any (straight?) group of guys, there is a dominance hierarchy. There is friction when some males may not know how they fit there, or are making a power move. Everyone, of course, is most comfortable when the hierarchy is understood and stable, at least for the short time. And, of course, breeding rights and opportunities go with male dominance in the hierarchy (which is, of course probably the major reason behind it in the first place). And, as a note - this isn't unique with humans, but rather you see the same thing in a lot of other social species with limited breeding opportunities.

Opening the door for another guy is fairly complex socially. It only though becomes an issue when you have two guys who are somewhat similar in status. The basic rule for a big difference in status is that the lower status male never expects the door to be opened for him by the higher status male, but is honored when he does. If you ever want to see this sort of thing, go to a bar event, where there are judges and attorneys who appear before them present. A lot of the attorneys, esp. the younger ones, seem to almost fawn over the judges, hanging on their every word, opening doors, etc., hoping that their service will be noticed.

On the flip side though, things like opening doors for other guys can become problematic when they are of somewhat more even status or rank in the relevant hierarchy. On the one hand, it can be a dominance move, like paying for dinner, but on the other, a show of weakness, and, thus submission. Part of it is how it is handled. Subordinates, not dominants, rush forward to get to the door first. But done, along with some of the other dominance signals that Trad mentioned, can be effective in furthering emphasizing dominance.

Finally, a note, that males are supposed to know these things, and not knowing them is a mark against them. I think that you see this sort of thing in a decently big law firm, when you have people coming in who didn't have the same sort of upper middle class or upper class grooming as most everyone else had. A lot of the guys are just not comfortable around them, because they don't know the appropriate dominance rules well enough.; २/३/१४, १२:२९ PM
Bruce Hayden म्हणाले...: So chivarly is not dead. Angry feminists are just trying to stab it to death.

I think that it is dying though. And, arguably, it should. Females have demanded traditional male perks, and gotten them. Assuming equal work over time, and equal credentials, females make as much as males these days. It was one thing to put females up on a pedestal, at a time when if they married a guy and had his kids, she would often keep having them, until one of them killed her in childbirth. It is quite another, when the female is more likely to use any deference to her distaff sex as an opportunity to take a job away from the guys giving her deference, and because of that loss in status, those guys are less likely to gain breeding opportunities with her, or actually other females. In short, chivalry is dying, because there is little reason these days to give females any sort of deference.; २/३/१४, १२:३९ PM
Bruce Hayden म्हणाले...: Let me note that I had my part in killing chivalry, many decades ago, about the time that Ann was starting college. This was late 1969 or early 1970, and I had my first serious girlfriend, a freshman, to my being a worldly sophomore. At least at that tender age, she seemed to follow me around like a puppy. So, being the era that it was, I set out to mold her to the times, and one of my projects was to break her of the expectations that I would open the door for her, and instead, open it for me. So, when we would walk up to a door, I would just continue talking, and she would ultimately open it, and we would walk in. After awhile, it became automatic for us. Something like, but maybe not quite as effective, as Sheldon using chocolate for operant conditioning on Penny in Big Bang Theory. By then, though, I had spent months in a lab trying to train pigeons to do stupid tricks, and she had not.; २/३/१४, १२:४७ PM
Seeing Red म्हणाले...: This issue is easily solved if there is more than one door.; २/३/१४, १:२१ PM
William म्हणाले...: All my door holding behavior has been instinctive and unreflecting. The one exception is the elevator. I always try to stand far enough away from the buttons so that if someone yells "hold the door", I will be unable to comply despite my seeming best efforts,.....I think door holding is one of those minuets which successful men are able to negotiate with relative ease. What they have trouble with is the paternalistic slap on the back. If you ever see a conference of world leaders, it's comical watching them strive to get in that last pat on the back before seating.; २/३/१४, १:२७ PM
David म्हणाले...: "It's like a "dick move" but not dickish at all."

The men who really want to be ascendant will learn to open doors with their dicks. That shows such amazing power.; २/३/१४, २:५० PM
n.n म्हणाले...: This is only an issue for someone with high self-esteem, but lacking self-confidence. The former is a product of ego, while the latter is a product of achievement. The confidant man or woman will simply say thank you.; २/३/१४, ३:११ PM
Joe Schmoe म्हणाले...: Bruce, I think you are adopting a narrow view of the chivalric code. I haven't read about it in awhile, but if memory serves, there are rules the knights observed when courting women, and rules for exhibiting courtly behaviors. But there are many more rules, too, about protecting and aiding those that are weaker, including children, women, and the elderly.

These are timeless principles that men and women would do well to uphold.; २/३/१४, ३:३७ PM
ken in tx म्हणाले...: "After you, Alphonse." Google it. Not new.; २/३/१४, ८:३९ PM
Sigivald म्हणाले...: Pandagon (or whoever Pandagon is presenting) presumably doesn't know any actual men.

Which is not very surprising.

(What Jimmy said - "normal men" aren't slighted by consideration and manners.

Men who are deeply un-confident and insecure might be.

Which I guess might explain why Pandagon/Pandagon-quoted-persons might think that's what "men" are like; can you imagine a half-well-adjusted man of any confidence willingly associating with Pandagonites?; ३/३/१४, ४:३४ PM
Focko Smitherman म्हणाले...: @ken in sc:

After you, Alphonse.; ३/३/१४, १०:४८ PM
Mike म्हणाले...: I'm not one to think too much of what academics find in a social study, but I do think they are onto something here. It applies more on elevators than doors, as the person closest to the handle generally opens it and holds it for the other. There's no such problem on an elevator.

At my office, assuming the elevator isn't too crowded, the woman who got on last exits first. And all women exit by order of arrival. If two women have entered from the same floor, the higher status woman may insist that the lower status woman leaves first, but generally not. Then the men leave by reverse order of arrival, with the highest status man insisting that others leave before him.

I can't help but find it interesting that men leave by status, while insisting women leave first. But, it's probably just small power displays mixed with tradition leading to an odd result.

Also, I've found that leaving the elevator before a male of supposedly lower status disarms them. They generally become less obsequious, and thank God for that. It probably affects my reputation negatively, though.; ४/३/१४, ११:१३ AM