Althouse: Those who are pushing outrage over ousting Maria Conchita Alonso from "The Vagina Monologues"...

১৯ জানুয়ারী, ২০১৪

Those who are pushing outrage over ousting Maria Conchita Alonso from "The Vagina Monologues"...

… remember "Veterans Boycotting 'The Butler' Over Jane Fonda's Portrayal Of Nancy Reagan."

Don't be hypocritical!

১২০টি মন্তব্য:

Amexpat বলেছেন...: + Dixie Chicks; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:১৮ AM
Gahrie বলেছেন...: The difference is...it was the consumer, the public, that punished the Dixie Chicks and Jane Fonda.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:২২ AM
MayBee বলেছেন...: Without really commenting on this specific topic:

There is a huge difference between not buying a product because you have some prejudice against the vendor and firing an employee/Contactor because you have a prejudice against him.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:২৫ AM
cassandra lite বলেছেন...: That has to be click bait. A producer firing an actress for her political opinion isn't even in the same zip code as boycotting a film for its content. The irony here is that the leftist producer probably would've done the same if the play was about HUAC and Joe McCarthy.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:২৫ AM
David বলেছেন...: MayBee said...
Without really commenting on this specific topic:

There is a huge difference between not buying a product because you have some prejudice against the vendor and firing an employee/Contactor because you have a prejudice against him.

Agree completely.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:২৭ AM
Ann Althouse বলেছেন...: The Dixie Chicks story isn't parallel. It's not about casting. I've been saying that there is a message in casting, and the boycotters of "The Butler" tried to push the producers to suit their political tastes by discriminating against an actress because of her politics. They didn't do it, and they bore the brunt of whatever happened at the box office.

The producers of "The Vaginal Monologues" in SF anticipated boycotting because of an actress and got her out.

I think with "The Butler," the producers were left-wing and wanted to convey the message that they had a left perspective and putting Fonda in the role of NR was a way to say what they were doing by having an NR character.

There's a lack of parallel between "The Butler" and this "VM" production in that both were left-oriented projects, and the actress in one matched the politics of the producer and in the other was antagonistic.

Where the politics matched, they kept their actress and accepted the market hit (if any) and where it didn't, they got rid of her and presumably will do better in the market.

I think on the whole, having Fonda play NR was a market plus for what was a movie with a left message.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৩২ AM
Michael K বলেছেন...: The veterans had an entirely different issue with Jane Fonda. Putting her in that role was a thumb in the eye of all veterans. I thought casting Alec Baldwin as Jimmy Doolittle in "Pearl Harbor" was dumb and I have not seen the movie again. Of course that movie was fiction.

The other issue is not a boycott. The people who go to Vagina Monologues are not likely to care.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৩২ AM
SGT Ted বলেছেন...: Oh cool, we can fire commies and progressives and prevent them from working now, simply because of their views. Joe McCarthy would be proud.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৩২ AM
Tarrou বলেছেন...: 1: As several commenters point out, a customer boycott and a firing are different, though I understand the actress was "encouraged" to resign.

2: Supporting one of the two major political party candidates publicly and visiting an enemy state, trolling the American POWs and informing on them to their captors is a bit of apples and hand grenades. Fonda takes a bit of extra flack just for being the personification of the 60s american betrayal of its veterans. But make no bones, her name is a curse in every single battalion in the Army. It's grown beyond dislike of an actress into a full-blown obsession. Comparing this to some no-name actress over policy is pretty far out.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৩৪ AM
Ann Althouse বলেছেন...: "firing an employee/Contactor because you have a prejudice against him"

Again, where the "employer" is an artistic organization putting on a speech-based production, choosing the cast-members is an aspect of that speech. It's not firing the person because you have an animus against them because of their beliefs so much as firing them because they don't convey the message you are trying to convey. It's part of speech and should be analyzed differently. The play is political and having all the actors in political accord is a choice that is part of speech.

It's similar to if you were putting on a play about Jesus and his disciples wanting all true-believer Christians in the cast.

Not that that would be the only way to do the play, but that if you saw that casting as your vision of how to say what you want to say, it's not the same as other employment discrimination.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৩৬ AM
SGT Ted বলেছেন...: Jane Fonda sold her own countrymen down the river. When one of them secretly palmed her a note, hoping she would take it back with her to America to expose the Commie lies about good treatment of US personnel, outlining how they had been tortured and beaten, she promptly turned to note over to the Communist handlers, which resulted in beatings and torture for the guy who passed the note.

Jane Fonda should have been hung as a traitor long ago. So, fuck her and her career.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৩৭ AM
gadfly বলেছেন...: Who among conservatives really gives a rat's ass about the ultra-liberal folks in the entertainment business. I don't know who Maria Conchita Alonso is (or even what she looks like) and I would have thought that that Barbarella would have already joined Dad Henry in their own private Hell.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৩৯ AM
Tyrone Slothrop বলেছেন...: Ultimately a boycott is an amalgam of the decisions of individuals. I wouldn't watch Jane Fonda as Nancy Reagan because it would be an unpleasant experience.

The Vagina producers have made the decision for everyone else. It is totally in line with the attitudes of the liberal elite.

This is the difference.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৩৯ AM
Ann Althouse বলেছেন...: Keep in mind too that Alonso did not merely express support for Tea Party politics, she portrayed a Latina stereotype in an ad, and it was a stereotype that was pretty old fashioned and non-feminist, and the play is a feminist play, done in Spanish. Her visibility as that stereotyped Latina (almost like Charo) made her not what the producers wanted on the stage. Their message, their speech was inconsistent with the visible stereotype making the rounds in a viral ad.

I don't think that's so bad.

And the play is very bad anyway. So if it is bad, it's bad on top of bad, a whole big bundle of bad. Avoid it!; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৪০ AM
MayBee বলেছেন...: it's not the same as other employment discrimination.

Ok, but boycotting the Dixie Chicks and not seeing The Butler aren't any kind of employment discrimination.

So no hypocrisy.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৪৫ AM
Ann Althouse বলেছেন...: "The Vaginal Monologues"

LOL; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৪৯ AM
William বলেছেন...: Jane Fonda's execrable politics have actually helped her career. I don't think this will hold true for Alonso.......The career of James Caviezel, who starred in Mel Gibson's controversial film, hit the skids because of that role. Hollywood sometimes takes pleasure in casting him as a wacko, Jesus freak killer, but he's not up for any leading man roles.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৪৯ AM
Tom বলেছেন...: I'd like to see Pussy Riot do the Vagina Monolgues in Russian Punk! With free penicillin for the resulting Claptrap.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৫২ AM
Hagar বলেছেন...: B.S. Professor.
The ladies did not "anticipate boycotting." This was just between them and her.

And Hanoi Jane in a major movie about Reagan, and Conchita Alonso in a stix production of the Vagina Monologues indeed is "not in the same zip-code."; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৫৪ AM
Crimso বলেছেন...: "she portrayed a Latina stereotype in an ad, and it was a stereotype that was pretty old fashioned and non-feminist, and the play is a feminist play, done in Spanish."

So she is an actress who evidently can take on roles that are, in a certain sense, diametrically opposed. What idiot director would want an actress with that type of talent? It would be as appalling as a lawyer capable of arguing both sides. Remember now, she wasn't "fired" ("asked to resign" or what have you) because she didn't have the talent to pull off the demanding role in the VM.

Seems to me that her choices of roles indicate she is a very tolerant person.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৫৫ AM
Real American বলেছেন...: it's not as if she's gonna be up there vaginally monologuing and interrupt the performance to spew her views on illegal immigration. she's gonna be doing a performance as an actress. This isn't gonna be a anti-immigration lecture or even a debate.

The left just can't stand anyone who doesn't aggressively agree with them. The left doesn't want anyone else to be able to do anything, even if completely unrelated to where they disagree.

Seriously, so what if she doesn't agree with them? Why must everyone agree? These people are so petty. They're so small to the point of being clowns.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৫৫ AM
Ann Althouse বলেছেন...: "Ok, but boycotting the Dixie Chicks and not seeing The Butler aren't any kind of employment discrimination."

I agree that the ultimate decision is the employer's and the boycotters are applying market pressure to affect that decision. My point is that this is a special category of employment discrimination where the employer is a speaker and is crafting a message with the employees as mouthpieces. An actor has a particular image and it either works for the message or doesn't. That is a normal part of casting. It's not the actor's individual self-expression at stake. The producers control casting. If there was a contract that was violated, they should have to pay, but if they think she doesn't work in the role, because of her image, they can oust her. That's part of their message.

If you don't like their message, don't go to the play. That's the equivalent of the boycotting you approved of: when you decline to see that play because you don't want to sit through hearing their message.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১১:৫৬ AM
MayBee বলেছেন...: Then why did you tell people to stop being hypocritical?; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:০০ PM
Wince বলেছেন...: the play is a feminist play, done in Spanish. Her visibility as that stereotyped Latina (almost like Charo) made her not what the producers wanted on the stage. Their message, their speech was inconsistent with the visible stereotype making the rounds in a viral ad.

Feminist criticism
The Vagina Monologues has been criticized by a number of people in the pro-sex feminist, sex egalitarian, and individualist feminist movements...

Colonialism and heterosexism
Kim Hall further criticizes the play, particularly the sections dealing with women in the Third World, for contributing to "colonialist conceptions of non-Western women." Although she supports frank discussions about sex, Hall rescales many of the same critiques leveled by feminists of color at white privilege among second-wave feminists: "premature white feminist assumptions and celebrations of a global 'sisterhood.'"; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:০৩ PM
Hagar বলেছেন...: And B.S. about the "stereo-typed Latina" too - it was a put-on (indeed somewhat like Charo, which also is a put-on, but Alonso's more low-key and good-humoredly than Charo's Vegas act), and Alonso can do that if she wants to, very much being a "Latina."; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:০৩ PM
Ann Althouse বলেছেন...: "Then why did you tell people to stop being hypocritical?"

I said: "Don't be hypocritical!"

That should be taken as a challenge to make the distinction, if you can and to be honest, self-critical, analytical, and not narrow-minded.

Make you distinctions explicitly and look at them head on. Lawyerly minds can always find some distinctions.

I'm looking at the distinctions people are making.

My first inclination on this issue was to be mad at the producers for firing the conservative lady, but I think that's a narrow and reflexive response and I want to look more deeply at the problem.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:০৫ PM
Ann Althouse বলেছেন...: "And B.S. about the "stereo-typed Latina" too - it was a put-on (indeed somewhat like Charo, which also is a put-on, but Alonso's more low-key and good-humoredly than Charo's Vegas act), and Alonso can do that if she wants to, very much being a "Latina.""

And lots of people in an ethnic group are offended by stereotypes like that. Humor doesn't solve the problem or we'd be seeing reruns of "Amos and Andy."

Alonso provided that stereotype for the promotion of a particular politician. There is a reputational price to be paid for that.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:০৭ PM
Hagar বলেছেন...: And who has the power in that skit? It sure is not the gringo politician wannabe.
So what is "non-feminist" about it?; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:০৮ PM
MayBee বলেছেন...: I do think its interesting there's a special carve out for artistic endeavors. As if the person being fired or not hired is less affected just because the employer has artistic intentions.

Not saying I disagree, but of course, there is always some carve out for the side who wants to enforce rules on others, because the rule makers understand *they* have good reasons for their actions.

"We don't want to hire a gay man to play the romantic lead in our movie. But we will be outraged if a man in Colorado doesn't want to make a wedding cake for a gay marriage". Of course, the gay man not being hired is suffering more economic damage. But the intentions are artistically pure.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:০৯ PM
buwaya বলেছেন...: Avoiding the play isn't difficult, because as you say it is much less entertainment than political ritual.

The decision is on one level an indication of the poor character of the people organizing the play. A more generous attitude would have had a better result overall, but evil is its own reward.

Alonso did not play a theatrical stereotype or perform some sort of minstrel act. I am willing to bet that her daily speech and affectations are exactly as she is in the video.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:১৩ PM
cassandra lite বলেছেন...: In entertainment, being too far left or outrageous will never lose you a gig. To wit: Sean Penn. Similarly, once you're "respected," molestation is nothing to keep adoring actors from their standing ovations. But let a conservative say a word outside of what the mean girls have approved, and suddenly you're in Branson.

You cannot possibly imagine how totalitarian it is out here. The Stasi is on every film set and at every party.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:১৩ PM
Hagar বলেছেন...: This is gentry-liberal talk. "Lots of people of an ethnic group" are not offended by good-natured ribbing by one 0f their own until they are told they are supposed to be by the PC campus crowd.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:১৪ PM
MayBee বলেছেন...: "Then why did you tell people to stop being hypocritical?"

I said: "Don't be hypocritical!"

Fine.

I guess I just didn't see anyone being hypocritical, or seeing the two situations as comparable.
Maybe you were reminding yourself?; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:১৬ PM
jr565 বলেছেন...: They would oust Maria, but never oust Sean Penn. As far as acting bona fides, I guess you'd have to give it to Sean. But he is such a despicable person.
Meanwhile, she seems comes across as heroic in comparison.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:২৪ PM
jr565 বলেছেন...: Ann Althouse wrote:
Keep in mind too that Alonso did not merely express support for Tea Party politics, she portrayed a Latina stereotype in an ad, and it was a stereotype that was pretty old fashioned and non-feminist, and the play is a feminist play, done in Spanish. Her visibility as that stereotyped Latina (almost like Charo) made her not what the producers wanted on the stage. Their message, their speech was inconsistent with the visible stereotype making the rounds in a viral ad.

How is that latina stereotype any different than the Latina on Modern Family?; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:২৮ PM
Alex বলেছেন...: Bottom line is a Wise Latina = leftist.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:৩০ PM
Alex বলেছেন...: LOL - so bottom line out of all this is it's ok to discriminate against conservatives. Society condones it, encourages it.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:৩১ PM
Valentine Smith বলেছেন...: Obviously ALonzo is a feminist or she would not have agreed to perform in the Vajayjay Orations in the first place. One MUST hold fast to ALL progressive dogma comprising the Grand Coalition. This is the potential leak that must be cemented before it becomes a deluge. Main stream democrats waking up to the demoscide (as in the Greek demos, i.e., the common people) leftist policies guarantee over the long haul.

No one is treated more savagely than the apostate.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:৩১ PM
Hagar বলেছেন...: I don't know about heroic, but certainly comfortable with herself, and in no doubt about who is in comtrol of the situation.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:৩২ PM
buwaya বলেছেন...: Just to be clear, she does not act Mexican.
Mexicans in general have a very different affect. They are much more reserved.
She acts in a perfectly natural manner for a Cuban or Latin American woman in a casual conversation in Spanish.
Her English is excellent BTW.

Charo made a joke of her accent, much like the Gabor sisters, as she did a comedy act. Some of her personality seemed funny merely because it was foreign, but it was genuine. The rest of her act was all hers, and was not particularly Spanish.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:৩৯ PM
Anthony বলেছেন...: I was going to say that I was bewildered that TVM was still being put on, let alone viewed by people. But then, we're talking about leftists and feminists who all seem stuck in the mid-1970s. As teenagers.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:৩৯ PM
Seeing Red বলেছেন...: Charo is one of the best classical Flamenco guitarists in the world.

As to the traitor, it was a another big FU. The vile progs are children always acting out. Then comes the bloodshed.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:৪০ PM
Hammond X. Gritzkofe বলেছেন...: Needn't be hypocritical.

I'd not go to see Jane Fonda in "Nixon" because I don't like the person.

I'd not go to see Maria Conchita Alonzo in "The Vagina Monologues" because I don't like the play.

Actually, both "Nixon" and "TVM" are political theatre - neither educational nor entertaining and not worth spending my time with.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:৪২ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: Don't be hypocritical? Too late.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:৪৪ PM
Hagar বলেছেন...: Mr. Alegria,

Mexico is a very large country with upwards of 100 million inhabitants of many diverse backgrounds.
And then you have to add what is now the United States west of the Mississippi.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:৪৮ PM
Hagar বলেছেন...: and some east of the river too, for that matter.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১২:৫০ PM
buwaya বলেছেন...: Yes, Mexico is large and diverse. The US is more so.
But take random white US American, Yankee or Southerner or from the Midwest, set them down in Barcelona or Caracas or Lima, and the locals will ID them as US citizens with great accuracy.
There are commonalities in national personality, accent, dialect that, if they were subject to metrics, would yield statistical truths. I have dealt with Mexicans from one end to the other, Nortenos, Surenos, from Yaquis to Yucatecos.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১:০১ PM
Seeing Red বলেছেন...: Don't forget clothing. The way we carry ourselves. Not necessarily dialect. Sometimes foreigners can't distinguish between our accents & Canadians.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১:০৬ PM
Seeing Red বলেছেন...: And I agree, what about Sofia Vergara? Ask the spokesman that question, watch head explode.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১:০৯ PM
buwaya বলেছেন...: Vergara is from Colombia.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১:১৪ PM
traditionalguy বলেছেন...: If Phil Robertson can be fired for being pro vaginas for men in his family, then why not the entire cast of the play in question being fired?

Is it the war on women, chapter one million, again? How boring life is without straight, breeder sexual tensions.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১:১৬ PM
Darrell বলেছেন...: The Left tells us we must eat whatever crap sandwich they serve to us. Only they get to crush us under their boots.

Sound advice that we will take into consideration.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১:১৭ PM
William বলেছেন...: One bit of casting that was spot on was Jane Fonda playing the role of Lillian Hellman in the movie Julia. The movie was based on a self aggrandizing lie that Lillian told about herself and it managed to puff Lillian even more......It's long since past due to make an honest biopic about that lying sack of shit and her lush husband. I think to capture the full dimension of Lillian's vapidity, Alonso should be cast to play her. Go for the Charo effect, but drunk and mean spirited. For Dashiell I would recommend Robin Williams in full on Mork mode. Some will claim that this is non traditional casting, but I truly think that such casting would shed light on the essential clownishness of the protagonists' behavior.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১:৩৩ PM
Jason বলেছেন...: Let's see… on one hand, we have someone who volunteered herself to be a servant of a Communist dictator whose minions were merrily carrying out massacres of schoolteachers, politicians, businesspeople and anyone inconvenient all over South Vietnam (c.f. the Hue massacre, which makes Lt. Calley look like the Good Humor Man in comparison, but the Communist terror tactics were routine all over the country.)

Uncle Ho's goons were also happily brutalizing our captured uniformed service members on a daily basis, subjecting them to horrific beatings and torture in flagrant violation of all the articles of war.

And when one of our own men tries to sneak a message home with Jane Fonda, instead of ferrying the message like a normal fucking human being, Fonda betrays our service member and our country by handing the note over to his torturers so they can make an example out of him to terrorize the other prisoners.

Alonso, on the other hand, appeared in an ad for the Tea Party.

Althouse thinks they're somehow equivalent and can't see daylight between them.

WTF, professor?

Seriously. WTF?; ১৯/১/১৪, ১:৫৪ PM
MayBee বলেছেন...: I really think it's interesting that university professors have protected themselves with tenure so they can talk positively about the rightful firing or boycotting of other people.

I'm not directing that toward Althouse, btw. I'm thinking about the attempted boycott of Israel, for one thing. I just find something so unseemly about university professors finding it so important they alone must be protected against consequences of unpopular opinions.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১:৫৯ PM
traditionalguy বলেছেন...: Hollywood has threatened to poison gun ownership freedom in the USA like Fonda did nuclear power plants in The China Syndrome movie.; ১৯/১/১৪, ২:০৩ PM
traditionalguy বলেছেন...: এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।; ১৯/১/১৪, ২:০৩ PM
Jaq বলেছেন...: I am pretty sure there was a "market hit" for The Butler. May not have been huge, but it is on my list of movies I don't need to pay to see. Any movie out of Hollywood dealing with recent wars are also on the list. I might see the butler when it is no additional cost to me, such as on HBO, but spend an additional dollar on it? No.; ১৯/১/১৪, ২:০৯ PM
Rosalyn C. বলেছেন...: Pablo Picasso: "Art is a lie that makes us realize truth."; ১৯/১/১৪, ২:১৩ PM
Hagar বলেছেন...: From my Army days, I remember that some of the Mexican guys went to Seville, and the girls there asked about their funny accents, and they said they were from Barcelona and got away with it. Or they were allowed to think they did anyway.

But you are right that there is something about the U.S. that marks us all as being American, even those like me who were born and raised elsewhere.

And I do not buy this about "Latino" being "non-White." In fact that is one of the more obvious things that shows how ridiculous this race thing is.
I understand that Mexico is a very race conscious country, and there are families there who are very proud of being of "pure" Spanish ancestry. Which - given the history of Spain - brings up a whole other set of questions, but never mind that. At what point between that and "pure" Indian does one become "non-White"?; ১৯/১/১৪, ২:২০ PM
buwaya বলেছেন...: Non white as a category is in Latin America largely a matter of culture and appearance. Also rhetoric.
In Mexico there are people who are of Indian descent who play the Indian identity card. Then there are people of Indian descent who may look more Indian than the activists who take the opposite positions.
This goes back a long way. Obregon famously recruited the Yaquis, in the name of indigenous rights, to fight against Huerta, who was himself an Indian, as was most of the Federal army.; ১৯/১/১৪, ২:৪১ PM
Seeing Red বলেছেন...: So there's a Mexican stereotype but not a Latin stereotype?; ১৯/১/১৪, ২:৪৮ PM
a psychiatrist who learned from veterans বলেছেন...: The problem for Jane Fonda was nobody offered her a part as Lenin's hyperthyroid wife. How well was she able to do the role of NR? The other day Bette Davis was mentioned. Bette Davis was able to find/play the role of pin-up model for her time as shown in the movie 'Bette Davis Revealed.'; ১৯/১/১৪, ৩:০৯ PM
iowan2 বলেছেন...: Remember the court has found not hiring a person because of their politics is legal.

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/03/conservative-iowa-law-professor-denied-new-trial-in-political-discrimination-case/; ১৯/১/১৪, ৩:১১ PM
Hagar বলেছেন...: I think I remember reading that at the time of the Conquista there were at least 9 distinct Indian tribes just in the Valley of Mexico, and I think the Maya of Yucatan had not even heard of any such place as Tenochtitlan nor the Chihuahuan desert.
How can you talk of a stereotypical Mexican with such a diverse base?; ১৯/১/১৪, ৩:১৭ PM
Biff বলেছেন...: Ann Althouse said, "The producers of 'The Vaginal Monologues' in SF anticipated boycotting because of an actress and got her out."

I'm highly skeptical of that justification. Tickets would sell out in a heartbeat to people who would want to storm the stage. My guess is that the producers were far more concerned with damages and losing control of the theater during the Two Minutes Hate (minimum) that would ensue if Alonso actually stepped out on stage. It would do hell to their insurance premiums.

I've been involved with apolitical organizations trying to put on events in towns with significant activist communities. Potential speakers who have expressed even moderately conservative views (views that are not directly related to an event) are routinely dropped from consideration because of the very high likelihood that the event will be disrupted by aggressive protesters.

In contrast, there is almost zero concern that inviting someone from the hard left would cause a similar stir. Our more conservative members would respect the forum. Reverse the politics, and we'd have to hire security personnel.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৩:২০ PM
HoodlumDoodlum বলেছেন...: My question, Professor, is why would this principle be limited just to artistic expression, or if you prefer, for purposes of this kind of discrimination where do you draw the line (of acceptability) between what activities are expressive in the correct way and which ones are not? I understand the usual defense regarding specially-designated classes, but other than that what would prevent an employer, say, from deciding not to employ a person they feel would not represent their company best to the public because of some personal aspect of that employee? Imagine a company that wants to present a pro-religious viewpoint deciding to fire a homosexual employee who comes out publicly: using the freedom of association argument along with your argument that control over expression conveyed in who a company chooses to employ, what would be wrong with that?
If a theater company could get rid of someone because of the message employing that person might send, why would a retail company not be able to do the same?; ১৯/১/১৪, ৩:২১ PM
Biff বলেছেন...: PS. A simple boycott might result in protestors at the door, but, in general, people who want to see the boycotted event would be able to do so unimpeded, once they were in the door. That is very different from disrupting an event and making it impossible for a performer to perform, which is almost certainly what would happen if Alonso were to remain in the cast.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৩:২৩ PM
Titus বলেছেন...: The casting of Jane Fonda as NR was brill as it made your heads explode. They accomplished their mission.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৩:২৪ PM
buwaya বলেছেন...: No idea. All I can say is what I have noticed.
Maybe there are common Indian traits that have become near universal in Mexico. Compared with some other Latin American countries, Mexico is quite Indian.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৩:২৬ PM
heyboom বলেছেন...: As other veterans have already stated up thread, there is no moral equivalence between an actress giving aid to the enemy during a time of war and an actress being booted off a show because she supported a conservative politician.

Go to almost any men's room at an O-Club in the military and you will find pictures of Jane Fonda on the bottom of the urinals.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৩:৩৭ PM
Titus বলেছেন...: Do you know that I can now identify every latins country of origin based off their appearance?

Same with middle easterners.

I have had intimate relations with all those countries and I learn about them, their looks, and their cultures, through those intimate encounters.

I love smarmy, exotic, brown guys.

And I just watched the Salinger documentary on netflix and new releases of his new books will start 2015-I am thrilled!; ১৯/১/১৪, ৩:৪১ PM
paul a'barge বলেছেন...: You can't differentiate between a boycott and firing someone for what that person said in a completely separate venue?; ১৯/১/১৪, ৩:৪৪ PM
Biff বলেছেন...: Titus wrote, "The casting of Jane Fonda as NR was brill as it made your heads explode."

I don't think there were a lot of exploding heads. The casting of Jane Fonda as NR was boring, banal, predictable, silly, jejune, etc.

It was clever and provocative in the way that a Maureen Dowd column is clever and provocative, i.e. not nearly so much as those behind it believe it to be.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৩:৪৪ PM
heyboom বলেছেন...: It's not as though nobody knew about Senora Alonso's political leanings. She's been an outspoken critic of Castro and especially Hugo Chavez (she is Venezuelan but born in Cuba) and had a very public spat with Sean Penn over his support of Chavez.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৩:৫৩ PM
Birkel বলেছেন...: Professor Althouse:

When all politics is personal, your attempts to draw lines becomes impossible.

As it is the Left who has tried to make the personal political, you should question whether the Leftists' tactics has borne exactly the fruits the Right argued were inevitable.

Will you analysis run so deep? I doubt it because you are 'of' the Left.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৪:২২ PM
Sam vfm #111 বলেছেন...: If you want to know what American servicemen think of Jane Fonda:
Hanoi Jane Urinal Targets
http://www.armedforcesinsignia.com/?p=3597; ১৯/১/১৪, ৫:০১ PM
The Godfather বলেছেন...: So back before my time (well, I was alive but more interested in dodge ball than politics), many Hollywood studios "blacklisted" screen writers because they had Communist connections. And ever since then it has been an article of faith among enlightened people that this was WRONG! Can we now agree not only that the studios had the right to do that as employers, but also that because it was done based on their judgment as producers of products for popular consumption, that it shouldn't be criticized?; ১৯/১/১৪, ৫:১৩ PM
Seeing Red বলেছেন...: The "wise Latina" judge is Puerto Rican.

I think the 2016 Summer Olympics is going to be fun. Will it confirm, deny or blow some stereotypes out of the water?

"American's streets are paved with gold."

"Oversexed, overpaid & over here."

2 such stereotypes (part of) the world had of the US.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৫:১৩ PM
Titus বলেছেন...: I pray, and I am not religious, that in my elder years, I am not bitching about Vagina Diary actors and Hollywood in general on websites.

Pathetic and sad.

What happened to a round of gold and dindin with friends?

milky tits.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৫:৫১ PM
CatherineM বলেছেন...: You are wrong on this one Althouse; ১৯/১/১৪, ৬:২১ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: Okay, if a vet who boycotted the movie because of Jane Fonda's involvement also expresses outrage over the firing/forced resignation of Maria Conchita Alonso, that vet is a hypocrite. That's all I'll give you on this, Althouse. And I would guess the number of those hypocritical vets is in the single digits.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৬:৫৭ PM
Steve বলেছেন...: Prof. Althouse is being deliberately obtuse when she says that political casting are identical to people choosing not to see a movie.

It worked. I am comment number 87.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৭:০২ PM
SGT Ted বলেছেন...: I do think its interesting there's a special carve out for artistic endeavors. As if the person being fired or not hired is less affected just because the employer has artistic intentions.

The actress was asked to resign for the same reason that Communist writers and actors were "asked to resign" during the Hollywood blacklist era: their personal political views and expression and association.

That's where the hypocrisy lies.

Lets remember that people didn't much care for Commies back then. Anti-Communism was the popular view. The Blacklist happened because populist cultural suppression of Communists was A-OK. But, we were told that such was intolerant and un-American. So, we had to allow the Commies to say whatever.

Now, the Commies heirs are firing people for their views. And it's A-OK, because: Artistic Vision. Or some shit like that.

If it is anti-American to blacklist Commies, then it is anti-American to fire this woman from an artistic production for the same reason.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৭:৩৬ PM
SeanF বলেছেন...: MayBee: Without really commenting on this specific topic:

There is a huge difference between not buying a product because you have some prejudice against the vendor and firing an employee/Contactor because you have a prejudice against him.

Labor is a product. Firing (or refusing to hire) an employee/contractor because you have a prejudice against him is not buying a product (labor) because you have some prejudice against the vendor (laborer).

What's the "huge difference" that differentiates labor from all other products for sale?; ১৯/১/১৪, ৭:৪৬ PM
Kathy Antley বলেছেন...: Again, where the "employer" is an artistic organization putting on a speech-based production, choosing the cast-members is an aspect of that speech

If they said no gay actors, I don't see a reason to believe you'd be OK with that.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৭:৫৩ PM
RecChief বলেছেন...: actually, I'm not upset that Ms. Alonzo was let go. the only thing that even remotely angers me is the "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism", tolerance, inclusion, people were blacklisted in the '50s for their political beliefs and that is analogous to the holocaust, leftist crowd is that all their high minded rhetoric melts away when someone dares to voice a viewpoint different from theirs. This type of hypocrisy must be pointed out every time it happens.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৮:০২ PM
Alex বলেছেন...: They always meant dissent against Bush.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৮:০৭ PM
Fritz বলেছেন...: What are the chances that a community center in San Francisco that plays the Vagina Monologues receives public funding?

Never mind I looked it up. 100%.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৮:১৭ PM
Cliff বলেছেন...: It's unfortunate because actors and actresses should be judged simply for their acting. What a sad indictment of our polarized nation. For instance, I think Jane Fonda is a terrible person but a great actress. Half the time people don't even know who the actor/actress is but the boycott because someone told them to. What a sad, divisive country we have.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৯:০৭ PM
Ken Mitchell বলেছেন...: The difference was that Fonda was an actual traitor to the COUNTRY. Alonso is merely opposing the Left's political agenda.

I'll grant you that in the Left's eyes, these are equivalent. But lefties are insane.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৯:১০ PM
heyboom বলেছেন...: @Forthenri

Again, we're contrasting the firing of an actress for her political views to an actress who actively abetted an enemy in the time of war.

Not the same thing.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৯:১০ PM
davinci78 বলেছেন...: Jesus Christ Ann, why do you do this shit? Where the hell are you in your life? Make up your mind what side of the fence your on, because it can't be comfortable with the 2 x 6 between your legs.

Sorry, might be the ballast point Sculpin talking after a hell of a NFC championship game. Love ya.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৯:১৪ PM
RecChief বলেছেন...: Cliff said...
It's unfortunate because actors and actresses should be judged simply for their acting. What a sad indictment of our polarized nation. For instance, I think Jane Fonda is a terrible person but a great actress. Half the time people don't even know who the actor/actress is but the boycott because someone told them to. What a sad, divisive country we have.

Sadly, I know exactly why I dislike Hanoi Jane.

What a sad divisive country we have? Tell me what political persuasion finds it in its best interest to fragment the people of this country? What political stripe seeks to make distinctions of people based on race, gender, ethnicity, sexual preference, and income, jsut to name a few? And then laments about how the country is divisive.........Why I oughta....; ১৯/১/১৪, ৯:৩৩ PM
Quaestor বলেছেন...: Titus wrote: I pray, and I am not religious, that in my elder years, I am not bitching about Vagina Diary actors and Hollywood in general on websites.

Too late.

You can't pray retroactively, Titus.; ১৯/১/১৪, ৯:৫১ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: When Hollywood and the "arts community" in general stop bitching about The Blacklist of communists, then, and only then, can they behave in this way and not be subject to derision.

Either that, or they can simply admit that yes, they are all a bunch of communist sympathizers and America haters.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১০:৩৭ PM
john marzan বলেছেন...: "I agree that the ultimate decision is the employer's and the boycotters are applying market pressure to affect that decision. "

i doubt the vagina monologues will be losing a lot of hispanic audience if they kept her, unless latinos are what's driving the core audience of VM.; ১৯/১/১৪, ১০:৫৬ PM
Mountain Maven বলেছেন...: Ann are you trolling your own readers, or are they simply dismantling your arguments on a regular basis? They seem to pwn you all the time.; ২০/১/১৪, ১২:০৯ AM
MayBee বলেছেন...: SeanF-
The person "buying" the labor is the employer.
Employment laws apply to the employer, not the customer. Imagine if consumers were required to follow anti-discrimination laws. You'd be subject to legal action for *not* buyng a product or *not* frequenting a particular shop.

Now,people who support the health care mandate might support that. But we aren't there yet.; ২০/১/১৪, ১:৫৭ AM
Jaq বলেছেন...: I agree with Althouse on all points. The play is excruciatingly bad, and the whole point of boycotts is to intimidate the producers of a show.; ২০/১/১৪, ৫:১০ AM
Jaq বলেছেন...: "But you are right that there is something about the U.S. that marks us all as being American"

Ha ha! I have worked overseas quite a bit and had the same experience in both Australia and England. They will first ask you if you are Canadian. The explanation? Canadians are furious to be mistaken for Americans and Americans think it is kind of funny to be mistaken for Canadians.; ২০/১/১৪, ৫:১৫ AM
rhhardin বলেছেন...: Good posturing is everything.; ২০/১/১৪, ৬:৩৫ AM
Jaq বলেছেন...: To hear Titus tell it, you would almost think that Althouse has a monopoly on blogging and comment sections.; ২০/১/১৪, ৭:১৩ AM
MPH বলেছেন...: Gahrie, MayBee

You don't think the producers of the (ridiculously awful) Vagina Monologues would feel the heat from their audience if they didn't take action? Of course it is within their right, idiot Americans they may be.

Althouse is 100% right.; ২০/১/১৪, ৭:১৫ AM
Hagar বলেছেন...: This apparently was not about "not hiring" Ms. Alonso, but about forcing the resignation of an employee. In San Francisco and a well-known actress, I would presume she had an employment contract, and unless that contract contained a clause about her taking on outside work during her employment and the character of that work, she would have a union grievance and grounds to sue as well, I would think.; ২০/১/১৪, ৭:১৯ AM
Known Unknown বলেছেন...: Fritz cracked the code.; ২০/১/১৪, ৭:২২ AM
Hagar বলেছেন...: Considering that "The Vagina Monologues" is the show she was hired for, the clause would also have to be a more definite than a general "morals clause," I would think.; ২০/১/১৪, ৭:২৩ AM
KCFleming বলেছেন...: "MPH said...
You don't think the producers ...would feel the heat from their audience if they didn't take action?
Of course it is within their right"

1. It was a publicly-funded play at a community center in San Francisco.
2. Your conclusion means that the 1950s Hollywood blacklist was completely fine.
3. Althouse failed the analogy portion of her SATs.; ২০/১/১৪, ৭:৫৯ AM
SeanF বলেছেন...: MayBee, that's exactly my point. The law treats the sale of labor differently than the sale of other products, and that is, as you say, the result of the general population treating the sale of labor differently than the sale of other products. There would be riots if the sale of iPhones, for example, was restricted in the same way the sale of labor is.

But that must be a consequence of what you termed a "huge difference" between labor and other products. It is circular logic to assert that it itself is the difference.

The fact is that the sellers of labor far outnumber the buyers, whereas the buyers of other products far outnumber the sellers (in general, the buyers of labor are the sellers of other products and vice versa). The difference in laws is ultimately a result of tyranny of the majority.

But that simply explains the difference. It's a far cry from justifying it.; ২০/১/১৪, ৮:০৮ AM
jr565 বলেছেন...: One difference between Fonda and Alonso, of course is that Fonda is actually in the Butler. So then, she wasn't actually punished for her politics.; ২০/১/১৪, ৯:১০ AM
jr565 বলেছেন...: One difference between Fonda and Alonso, of course is that Fonda is actually in the Butler. So then, she wasn't actually punished for her politics.; ২০/১/১৪, ৯:১০ AM
jr565 বলেছেন...: Pogo is dead wrote:
"Your conclusion means that the 1950s Hollywood blacklist was completely fine"

great point. For,the left, what was the issue with the blacklisting of Hollywood commies?!that it was happening to,them? and that it was going after a belief that they hold to be true?; ২০/১/১৪, ৯:১২ AM
KCFleming বলেছেন...: ...that it was happening to,them?"

Exactly.
For the left, there are no principles involved, ever.
They use morality and justice as means to their only end, which is total power over your life.

And then they will crush you using the same techniques they bitched about.

That's why the admonition 'Don't be hypocritical!' is so boring.

Lefties are always bitching about others being hypocrites.
But that's just classic Alinsky crap:
RULE 4: “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”

The left has no principles, so they can never be hypocrites.; ২০/১/১৪, ৯:২২ AM
harkin বলেছেন...: "she portrayed a Latina stereotype in an ad, and it was a stereotype that was pretty old fashioned"

As a third generation Angeleno latino I'm still waiting to see an American of Mexican descent portrayed realistically on television. The George Lopez Show is still the execrable standard.; ২০/১/১৪, ১:০৩ PM
Patrick Henry was right! বলেছেন...: So, supporting the Communist North Vietnamese who were killing our soldiers and seeking to enslave their neighbors is the same as supporting the Tea Party? Sometimes, Professor, I really don't get you.; ২০/১/১৪, ৩:১৭ PM
richard mcenroe বলেছেন...: We didn't pay to see it. We didn't demand she not be allowed to act in it. Slight difference.; ২০/১/১৪, ৫:২৮ PM
Drago বলেছেন...: Basil: "So, supporting the Communist North Vietnamese who were killing our soldiers and seeking to enslave their neighbors is the same as supporting the Tea Party?"

You must understand that to the left those two things are not alike.

The communists merely murdered millions.

The tea party wants a smaller government.

Clearly the tea party is worse to the lefties.

And it's not even a "close" call.; ২০/১/১৪, ৫:৩৪ PM
Drago বলেছেন...: I'm reminded of a Donahue show, probably from the '80s, where Phil had on a number of "conservative" commentators which included Buchanan, Fred Barnes, Novak and Mort Kondracke.

It was also a show in which Donahues "bro-mance" pal Vladimir Posner was present.

During the show 2 segments stood out:

1) At one point Donahue was calling the hard-line Soviet types "conservatives" and the entire panel laughed at him and jumped down his socks so hard even Posner had to verbally tell Phil that, "no, communists are not conservatives".

I think Novak laughed at Phil and told him something to the effect that "hey phil, those are YOUR guys".

2) The second item is when Kondracke was simply astounded listening to Phil list all of America's faults while minimizing the Soviet murder of millions.

Kondracke said something along the lines of "Phil, I always knew you practiced moral equivalence but now I believe you actually give them (the Soviets) the benefit of the doubt."

Donahue made an "oh really" face and Kondracke doubled down.

Donahue's expression was priceless.

Anyway, '80's, Reagan, Gorbachev, Donahue...good times...good times...; ২০/১/১৪, ৫:৪০ PM
southcentralpa বলেছেন...: The makers of The Butler let the audience decide. These jackwagons decided the audience was too stupid to make up their own mind.

Now I'm off to make my magnum opus: "Piss Mandela"; ২০/১/১৪, ৫:৪৩ PM
Hagar বলেছেন...: Maria Alonso was on the Megyn Kelly show tonight. She was not "portraying a rather old-fashioned stereotype," but rather just being herself. And she is not very political to either side; she just likes this guy Donahue[?] personally, and she just left the show rather than cause any more problems, of which she did not have any idea that she would to start with. People just take these things all too seriously, and she thinks they should lighten up a little.
So, big storm in a teacup.; ২০/১/১৪, ৮:৫৬ PM