"I by no means would say or insinuate that she was at all to blame."
Serena Williams apologizes and I'm not surprised she seems perplexed that she would need to.
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१५१ टिप्पण्या:
I believe this is the offensive quote:
“I’m not blaming the girl,” she said, “but if you’re a 16-year-old and you’re drunk like that, your parents should teach you: Don’t take drinks from other people. She’s 16, why was she that drunk where she doesn’t remember?”
Serena was looking forward - speaking to future actions and circumstance. Serena was correct in what she said. As I am fond of telling my children, only people who get hit by trains are those who were walking on the tracks.
Atheletes would do well to keep their opinions to themselves. Why would anyone care about her opinion on anything other than topspin?
Feminists believe women should be able to do anything, anywhere, anytime without consequences.
What Serena said was true, making it doubly vile.
Who knew that Serena was a Republican?
"Atheletes would do well to keep their opinions to themselves. Why would anyone care about her opinion on anything other than topspin?"
Do you follow the admonition yourself? Do you only allow yourself to talk about things that pertain to your job?
I am always interested in the "Shut up and Sing" mantra (song?). Followed not very far at all along the logic path, it collapses into absurdity every time.
I think talking to Rolling Stone is a bad career move for anyone.
Next she should apologize for saying that a 16-year-old getting raped is worse than a 17-year-old getting raped.
It is important when giving advise to possible future attack victims you frame your argument with that in mind.
"To all young women looking at this and thinking ... 'how can I be safe'? Don't go to parties like this. Don't get drunk."
"To all the parents of young women looking at this and thinking ... 'how can I keep my daughter safe'? Don't let her go to parties like this. Talk to her openly about drinking and the real risks associated with it."
It is basically the same as what she said. You just need to be much more delicate when speaking about emotionally charged events.
Who knew that Serena was a Republican?
For blaming a rape victim? Interesting.
Serena said the truth. Without excusing the rape, the girl was foolish and irresponsible to put herself in the position she was in--stinking drunk at age 16 in the company of other drunken teens. Recipe for disaster.
Perhaps if a few "feminists" had jumped to Serena's defense, she would not have had to grovel.
"For blaming a rape victim? Interesting."
See? Garage does the feminist two-step very very well.
"Women acting responsibly to ensure their own safety???
Haterz!!1!
Of course she was partially to blame. She got bombed at a party; was there any allegation in the case that the pigs who assaulted her held her down and poured liquor down her throat? I don't recall such an allegation. Why are we so enthralled by the idea that if one party behaved badly, the other must be blameless? If I were to get drunk off my ass and walk into the streed, if a driver decides he doesn't like me and swerves to clip me, he's to blame, but that certainly doesn't absolve me of blame for my part in it.
"Perhaps if a few "feminists" had jumped to Serena's defense, she would not have had to grovel."
They're afraid they'll end up Komen-ized.
Teaching your sons to not rape women seems like it should be a pretty simple thing to do.
garage mahal said...
"Teaching your sons to not rape women seems like it should be a pretty simple thing to do."
Teaching your sons and daughters not to get intoxicated seems like it should be a pretty simple thing to do. Alas, sometimes the apple does fall far from the tree.
See, the problem is that the cat's out of the bag. If these idiots hadn't provided the pictorial proof that convicted them, they could have claimed that she consented and who could say otherwise? Once you create a pornographized culture, and once you say that it's just fine for unwed teens to have sex, and once you nod and wink at them getting drunk, you've created an inflammable situation that needs only a spark.
harrogate, this is a real question so please be kind to a little dummkopf and explain nicely, how does, "shut up and sing" follow a logical path and collapse to absurdity?
I'm thinking of Barbra Streisand who I admire as singer and always enjoyed in movies but then she opens her mouth on political issues and I do feel her talent, and her fame and wealth derived from all of us appreciating that talent used to promote DNC no matter what and with great hostility. My attitude does become "shut up already, and at this point don't bother singing either." That was not a logical collapse that was a mind-protecting decision based on irritation. Her effort is partisan, and I find partisan arguments irritating, I do want her to shut up. So that's the example that prevents me from understanding your comment.
Everyone would do well to keep their opinions to themselves. Why would anyone care about her opinion on anything other than topspin?
Thought I'd fix that for you. Yes, she's a celebrity, but she has as much right to shoot off her mouth as anyone else.
For blaming a rape victim?
Who blamed her? Williams did not.
What's wrong, Garage? You've turned into a bitter ass.
Teaching your sons and daughters not to get intoxicated seems like it should be a pretty simple thing to do.
We don't excuse other horrible things that could be done to a drunk woman, not sure why rape qualifies.
Like, you wouldn't excuse me if I took a shit on your face just because you were passed out.
"Don't get drunk and I wouldn't have to shit on your face!"
"garage mahal said...
Teaching your sons to not rape women..."
garage has feminisms' rules memorized; it's almost reflexive now.
Say it with me.
IT'S NEVER THE WOMAN'S FAULT.
NOTHING IS EVER THE WOMAN'S FAULT.
WOMAN RIGHT, MAN WRONG.
WOMAN GOOD, MAN BAD.
Now br-e-eathe. Namaste.
1. People do stupid shit when they're drunk.
2. People get taken advantage of when they are drunk and pass out. They might draw on your face with a marker, for example, or leave you asleep in your pissed pants.
3. Some people do evil things to people that are drunk and passed out.
4. You are a person.
5. Don't get drunk and pass out, especially around people who aren't family or even close friends.
Maybe don't get shit-faced drunk and pass out at all.
It's really really stupid, even if you're a woman.
5. Don't get drunk and pass out, especially around people who aren't family or even close friends.
Teach your sons to not rape, then passed out people wouldn't have to worry about being raped. Simple!
Once again, we see the left's obsession with a consequence-free world. She should be able to do any damn thing she likes, Pogo! Don't you see? If she voluntarily gets drunk off her ass, nothing should happen to her, and if it does, she bears no responsibility. If she voluntarily had unprotected sex, nothing should happen to her, and if it does, well, my goodness, someone ought to buy that girl an abortion! No consequences.
I read the story and there's no indication of the race of the girl who was raped. Without that information it's impossible to gauge Serena's motivation for essentially blaming the victim.
We don't excuse other horrible things that could be done to a drunk woman, not sure why rape qualifies.
Don't see why recommending sensible behavior is akin to excusing someone of doing something bad when the advice is not taken. It is a fact that when people act responsibly, they are less likely to have bad things happen. Pointing that out excuses no one.
Teach your sons to not rape, then passed out people wouldn't have to worry about being raped. Simple!
Good advice. It would seem stupid, however, to not give advice to daughters as well, telling them to make sure they aren't vulnerable to the assholes who don't take the above advice.
If she voluntarily gets drunk off her ass, nothing should happen to her,
That's correct. Were you taught differently?
So now it's wrong to recommend that using common sense will help you avoid being the victim of crimes?
garage mahal said...
"[Pogo said, teach your adughters not to get drunk and pass out.] Teach your sons to not rape…."
Why not do both? And why not acknowledge that sometimes, children do things that their parents didn't teach them—indeed, do things that their parents actively taught them not to do. There was a case on the news the other day: These two minions of Satan decided that they wanted to rape and kill a girl. So they bought restraints and a ball gag from a local sex shop, and they found a local druggie girl. They sold her drugs, they did drugs with her, and then they got her good and high, bound and gagged her, raped her, killed her, and threw her in a lake. Do you think that the parents of these evil wretches taught them that that was okay? I doubt that.
arage mahal said...
"That's correct. Were you taught differently?"
No, it's wildly incorrect. The fact that someone else may share in the blame doesn't excuse the portion of blame contributed by the victim.
Garage:
We don't excuse other horrible things that could be done to a drunk woman, not sure why rape qualifies.
A) Who is saying what the males did is OK?
B) Are you saying becoming so drunk is a good idea? Do you disagree that parents ought to raise their kids so as to lessen the likelihood?
C) Regarding the punishment to the boys, it's pretty steep. They may also be registered as sex offenders for life. Whether this meets the crime or not, I don't know. Kids need to stop putting up compromising photos on the internet, and while they didn't have sex with her, they did degrade her.
D) I think Ann had something to say at some point about action against insensate people. I can't recall the discussion. However, a Genius young man friend (IQ > 160) once got so drunk as to not remember being mugged, bruised, and wallet stolen. In an attempt to make him think twice about getting so drunk, I asked him what if you were raped? His response was "Hey, if it didn't hurt me, who cares?" I don't have an answer for that.
garage,
So if a parent leaves a baby in the car while they run into the store, they don't share in any of the responsibility when the car is stolen and the baby dies.
I mean, if she got drunk and fell off a bridge, would you say that it's the bridge's fault, and complain that the bridge's parents should have raised it better? No one here is in any way excusing the vile conduct of her attackers. But there is a vast difference between "they are to blame for this evil act" and "she shoulders no blame for this evil act."
"Teach your sons to not rape..."
Simple!
Solved!
So far as I can tell, Williams said nothing untrue.
Insensitive, maybe, but eh.
God, if only garage had gone to Ohio and educated those fools in time, all of this would have been prevented.
And speaking of that, where were you when they needed you? Why weren't you preventing rapes all across the land by dispensing this awesome and definitive anti-rape advice?
garage mahal has somehow lived into (supposed) adulthood without noticing that good parents sometimes have rotten kids, and awful parents often have quite decent kids. (Many of the latter spend their lives trying not to turn into their parents.) He thinks all you have to do is tell your kids what not to do and they won't do it!
He also seems to think that criticizing the victim's foolish choices somehow let's the criminals off the hook, as if there were some fixed quantity of guilt to go around. That is obviously false.
Is someone who robs, beats, rapes, or murders people in dark alleys off deserted sreets in bad neighborhoods at 3:00am somehow less guilty than someone who does exactly the same things in broad daylight on crowded streets in otherwise safe neighborhoods? He's obviously a lot more likely to get away with it, but does anyone think he's less of a criminal just because his victims could have avoided him with a little common sense?
harrogate said...
I am always interested in the "Shut up and Sing" mantra (song?). Followed not very far at all along the logic path, it collapses into absurdity every time.
Notice you don't even attempt to engage where or how this alleged collapse into absurdity takes place.
Want to guess why that is?
garage mahal said...
Teach your sons to not rape, then passed out people wouldn't have to worry about being raped. Simple!
Right.
If only people would be "taught" not to do wrong things, then there would be like no crime.
You're a fucking idiot and embarrassment.
God, if only garage had gone to Ohio and educated those fools in time, all of this would have been prevented
Well, if those were my kids they wouldn't have raped anyone.
You can't rape people. Even IF they're drunk.
Feel free to spread that along.
Oh great, Jay the rape apologist is here to offer more sage advice!
What's wrong, Garage? You've turned into a bitter ass.
The utter moral bankruptcy of the Left has been exposed, but he has to keep defending it to get his paycheck.
Add to that Gov Walker hasn't been hauled away in chains, and WI under GOP control is doing better than just about any similar Blue State, well, that's enough to make any liberal fascist grumpy.
"Feel free to spread that along. "
Oh, I agree!
Amazing no one ever thought of it before.
Don't do evil things!
Just don't.
Stop it.
Man, garage, you're like the Dali lama of non-violence.
When people get falling down drunk and drive we are pretty quick to make them face the consequences. Claiming "oh, I was too drunk to even know I was driving; I shouldn't have to face the consequences" isn't going to get you off legally or morally.
No one deserves to be raped. No one deserves to be mugged, or beaten up, or burglarized either. But those things do happen because some people are just turds. We tell our kids to lock their doors and not to go to high-crime areas, and that is considered common sense. But telling them that one of the best ways to avoid being sexually assaulted is to stay sober and avoid becoming insensate around people they don't know very well is somehow beyond the pale. That's insane.
Teaching your sons to not rape women seems like it should be a pretty simple thing to do.
My sons haven't raped anyone.
Why are rapes still occurring then?
I can see why you keep repeating that nonsense, however:
1) it is easier than teaching liberal fascists to use logic, reason, and evidence
2) Liberal fascists have this stupid fantasy that you can perfect people if you just have the right people (them) in charge
The problem with resolving #2 is, of course, #1.
Good one, Pogo:
The Dalai Lama is a religious leader, but a "Dali Lama" would be a pseudo-religious leader whose idiotic teachings are like melting clocks dripping onto parched imaginary landscapes.
garage mahal said...
Teach your sons to not rape, then passed out people wouldn't have to worry about being raped. Simple!
I have taught my sons not to rape. People, especially young women, still have to worry about being raped. (Just not by my sons, although, of course, they have no way to know that.) Simpleton!
garage mahal said...
Well, if those were my kids they wouldn't have raped anyone.
No, your kids are just going to grow up fat, stupid, and with chronic diseases being net societal consumers of health care and government funds.
Which is like so much better.
I wonder if anyone has ever tried garage's advice before?
I mean, it seems sooo simple!
Don't rape people.
Just don't.
What need have we for police, or religion, or even laws?
Don't do bad things.
We need nothing more!
Nirvana is nigh!
Thanks, garage, you are super awesome!
Maybe a Code Pink Slutwalk protest is in order at the next U.S Open.
Girls, I'm available. You buy the tickets, I'll bring the van. We'll sing protest songs, hug, and be outraged together.
We might have to sleep in the van.
Let's not forget:
garage's exhortation to teach people to not rape people doesn't apply to Democrat Presidents.
Or their staff.
So his hypocrisy is a little bit more in-your-face than normal.
Let's not forget that Democrats prefer women at a high risk of being raped to remain pretty much defenseless.
The Democrat Party: The Premier Rape-Enabling Organization!
Children who have been taught not to rape and children who have been taught to avoid risky behaviors don't rape and don't do risky behaviors.
How do we know whether they've been taught?
Just because you say it doesn't mean it's been taught.
It's as if by saying the girl acted foolishly we are absolving the boys. We're not. People who want to get all upset seem to go out of their way to find a way to do it. I'm perplexed why she should have to apologize. She didn't say anything wrong. She was asked, apparently, and she answered with what she thought.
Thanks, garage, you are super awesome
No problem dude. If you're not worried about your son raping people, you've probably went over this with him too!
If you leave your car door unlocked, and the keys in it, do you bear any responsibility whatsoever for your car's getting stolen?
Yes. Don't leave your keys in your car.
Morever, based on his deliberate omission, garage mahal clearly fully approves of
women raping women, and women raping men.
Since he is teaching his daughters that raping other people is okay, I think we can take his commitment to teaching males to not rape with a grain of salt.
I hope garage mahal's anti-rape instruction is a little more competent than his grammatical instruction - "you've . . . went"?!?
Garage, when we implement the Just Don't Rape or Do Bad Things Plan (apologies to Nike, but I'm sure they're on board, how soon can we shrink the police force?
And for clarification, do you have to tell boys once just once and it sticks, or is there some required number of times? Like 10?
I'm curious.
Because my kids used to tell lies even when I told them not to.
So maybe I hadn't reached the critical threshhold.
Does this work for smoking, too?
So let's say a woman gets drunk, gets behind the wheel of a car, and kills a family?
Does a woman's personal responsibility for her behavior increase just because it isn't sex?
Why?
Nathan, just tell her not to do that when she's five, then it won't ever happen.
I think that's the rule.
Five.
Pretty sure.
Garage, little help here?
And for clarification, do you have to tell boys once just once and it sticks, or is there some required number of times? Like 10?
I'm curious.
Are you worried about your kid raping someone?
I wonder: has there ever been a case of a rapist defending himself in court by saying "But my mom and dad never told me it was wrong!"? I've never heard of such a thing happening in this country. Can garage mahal quote a single instance?
Why do any of you engage Garage? Seriously, Why? (Harrogate is a close second.)
Gotta go with Rev, all Miss Williams did was tell the truth.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Interesting, though, that a black woman is being made to do the Full Court Alinsky.
Maybe that stuff about the Lefties selling out blacks for the Hispanics is true.
garage mahal said...
Teaching your sons to not rape women seems like it should be a pretty simple thing to do.
Teaching your trolls not to say idiot things seems like it should be an even simpler thing to do.
But clearly it's not.
My guess is the two offenders were pretty well gone themselves.
"Are you worried about your kid raping someone?"
You're selling a revolution, man!
And scienterrific accuracy is needed.
So do you gots to tell boys not to rape like once, or ten times? Or a hundred seven?
You seemed so certain before!
Is there some catch?
Some secret that goes with Just Say Don't!
Like it's gotta be said under a full moon, or throwing salt over your shoulder, or in a high-pitched voice, or while flapping your arms and jumping up and down?
Nathan Alexander said...
"Morever, based on his deliberate omission, garage mahal clearly fully approves of women raping women, and women raping men."
I doubt that; I would think that instances of the former are rare and instances of the latter statistically non-existent.
Indeed, in Indiana, it would seem that women are incapable of raping women, see Ind. Code 35-42-4-1 (rape involves "a person who knowingly or intentionally has sexual intercourse with a member of the opposite sex").
Like it's gotta be said under a full moon, or throwing salt over your shoulder, or in a high-pitched voice, or while flapping your arms and jumping up and down?
Dude! No wonder you guys have such a hard time with the women folk. This is going to take some work.
No one should be a victim of crime. It's always the criminal's fault. But if you could've taken some common sense precautions to reduce your chances of being victimized but didn't, you were foolish.
Almost everywhere, pedestrians have the right of way, but it'd be foolish to step out into the road without looking both ways first. Likewise, you shouldn't be so drunk or absorbed with your cell phone or whatever that you're unaware of your surroundings. Likewise, there are places where it just isn't safe to go. Learn where they are and avoid them. It's still the criminal's fault if you go there and get mugged, but you were stupid to put yourself in that position in the first place.
Carefully avoiding all substantive refutations of his silly argument, garage mahal writes "No wonder you guys have such a hard time with the women folk."
Lawyers have a standard reply to such a statement: "Objection: assumes facts not in evidence."
Teaching your sons to not rape women seems like it should be a pretty simple thing to do.
If it was, there wouldn't be any male-on-male or male-on-female rape in America.
In Europe, they've gotten to the point that if the offending yoots are Moslems, it's ALWAYS the girl's fault.
If AmnestyCare goes through, will what Miss Williams said be OK if the offenders are Hispanic?
just askin'
Trouble is, Serena was right the first time.
Revenant said...
Teaching your sons to not rape women seems like it should be a pretty simple thing to do.
If it was, there wouldn't be any male-on-male or male-on-female rape in America.
Considering there are now more men raped annually in the military than women (about 1800 more), does that mean Choom should apologize for allowing homosexuals to serve?
Just Say Don't!
It's winner, garage.
Sounds a bit familiar, though.
Wasn't some stupid conservative woman vilified for saying something like that way back in the eighties?
Whatever.
Onward!
It's winner, garage.
It's certainly better than shaming the rape victim.
Short of pretending that telling young women to be careful amounts to excusing rape, Garage apparently has nothing to say on this issue.
Pogo said...
1. People do stupid shit when they're drunk.
Does this count? Shoving a large tipped kitchen match up under another drunk's big toe nail, then lighting the wooden end and watch it, with a few other drunks, until the tip flares up and wakes the drowsey drunk?
Did that on train to the Indy 500 long ago. I am ashamed. If you recall having your big toe set fire, then I am lying wittingly.
While Serena Williams is no angel..Look at her life and the lives of the others in the Williams family.
They have walked the walk. They lived in the most dangerous place West of the Mississippi (Compton CA). They worked hard, stressed discipline and responsibility, avoided trouble, raised their daughters to be strivers and not sluts. The daughters were not going to parties getting drunk out of their minds, and declaring they wanted fuck all comers.
The results are pretty spectacular if you want role models - the Williams family is not a bad place to start.
Even for them, a single misstep could be fatal. Yetunde Price, a registered nurse, mother of 3, Serena and Venus's older sister - made the mistake of falling in love with a troubled man with gang ties. And shot in the head by a rival gang shooting at her boyfriend.
The PC crowd and feministas ..or better yet, past those worthless people, ordinary parents and kids tempted by "the party life" should consider the messsenger.
The messenger is not some middle aged party girl whining about being stuck in Compton with 5 kids and on welfare with a long list of "men who abused her and fed her illegal substances".
The messenger is one of the greatest female sports athletes of all time. Who besides tennis, has parlayed her and sister Venus's prominence and visibility into a fashion business now valued in excess of 135 million dollars. She has media ventures. She is part owner of the Miami Dolphins. And done it with a fiery temper she carries and which has gotten her bad publicity, but it is mostly kept in check. And avoided drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, and destructive friendships.
Worth listening to more than a perpetually outraged and shocked! Slutwalk organizer who teaches gender studies at a local community college.
Don't shame the hotfoot victim, Aridog.
Garage Mahal, spouting feminist nonsense will not get you laid. The hot chicks will despise you for, just as much as real men do.
Just a little friendly FYI.
I can't tell if Serena was talking about comparative negligence, or if she'd been listening to conspiracy theories about Steubenville.
Contra garage, comparative negligence is important. If I pass out drunk in the middle of the road on a dark night, it's not my fault that someone hit me--deliberately or accidentally doesn't matter--but I bear a fraction of the responsibility nonetheless for doing something stupid, even though all driver's ed classes teach you not to hit pedestrians.
"Garage Mahal, spouting feminist nonsense will not get you laid."
Exception: The President.
Dude! No wonder you guys have such a hard time with the women folk. - GM
Projection, thy name is Garage.
Exception: The President.
I should have added: "by a woman."
Well, he wasn't laid either.
He even admitted, "I'm going to say this again: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky."
So actually, you're right. Not even the Prez gets laid talking that way.
He even admitted, "I'm going to say this again: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky."
Heh. I thought you were talking about Choom.
Besides, didn't Clinton get struck by lightning when he spouted feminist claptrap?
Ha!
On one hand, she threatens a lineswoman. On the other hand, she offers sage advice to reduce risk of suffering involuntary exploitation, specifically rape. Or is it rape-rape? I am still not clear on that distinction. It seems to be without a difference. They're both acts of involuntary exploitation.
Marx was dissembling when he characterized religion as the opiate of the masses. It is, in fact, dissociation of risk and responsibility, which sponsors the most effective domestication and induces complacency, thereby causing a progressive vulnerability to suffer exploitation.
wyo sis:
Exactly right. While the girl was a victim, she also knowingly placed herself in a situation where she would be subject to increased risk of suffering involuntary exploitation. This is a stupid behavior and should neither be encouraged nor rewarded.
She is a victim and that must be acknowledged. He violated her right to safety and security, and he must be punished. She should learn the right lesson from this incident:
Life is an exercise in risk management. You do not purposely increase risk without justification. You must be prepared to suffer the consequences of your voluntarily actions. That is a prerequisite to enjoy optimal liberty.
Teach your sons to not rape, then passed out people wouldn't have to worry about being raped. Simple!
Right.
If only people would be "taught" not to do wrong things, then there would be like no crime.
You're a fucking idiot and embarrassment.
thank you, Jay.
People are just parroting (Manchurian-Candidate like) stuff they read on posters or in class. Boys and girls are taught not to do a lot of things, but they still do them. Explain that, Garage
Teach your sons to not rape, then passed out people wouldn't have to worry about being raped. Simple!
Right.
If only people would be "taught" not to do wrong things, then there would be like no crime.
You're a fucking idiot and embarrassment.
thank you, Jay.
People are just parroting (Manchurian-Candidate like) stuff they read on posters or in class. Boys and girls are taught not to do a lot of things, but they still do them. Explain that, Garage
Boys and girls are taught not to do a lot of things, but they still do them.
Speak for yourself.
Again: I'm confident my kids will not rape anyone else. If you're unsure whether your kids will, then you are the idiot and embrassment.
Garage has the novel idea that children are automatons programmed by their parents.
Jeffrey Dahmer's parents must not have emphasized that you shouldn't kill and eat house guests.
Doesn't garage mahal claim to be the father of daughters? If so, isn't it more than a little smug and self-righteous to brag about how no child of his could possible ever turn out to be a rapist, given that the vast majority of rapists are men?
And isn't it also just a bit stupid, given that some women do commit rape? There's a website somewhere that has a dozen new picures every week of female schoolteachers arrested for having sex with their students - some boys, some girls - most of whom are guilty of statutory rape, and quite a few of forcible rape as well. A dozen a week in a country the size of the US is still a fairly low percentage of teachers, so the chances that any of gm's daughters will ever have their faces on that site are quite small, but NOT ZERO. (I hope the goddess Nemesis isn't reading gm's silly boasts.)
How many of the teacher-rapists were raised by parents who taught them that rape is OK? I'm going to guess less than 1%. The fact is that (as I noted in my 3:14pm comment) "good parents sometimes have rotten kids, and awful parents often have quite decent kids". Children have free will, and very few turn out just as their parents expect, or wish, them to. My parents once told me that they feel quite lucky, as well as proud, that none of their four children and six grandchildren is a drug addict or has a criminal record. Many of their peers are perfectly decent people who have not been so lucky.
Garage, you are perfectly self-deluded and utterly full of shit.
garage mahal said...
Again: I'm confident my kids will not rape anyone else.
Right. They'll just rape each other.
Idiot.
@Simon,
I doubt that; I would think that instances of the former are rare and instances of the latter statistically non-existent.
That's extremely sexist.
You aren't seriously trying to assert that auto-reflex actions indicate knowing willingness, are you?
If so, then your argument supports debunked rapist claims that it wasn't rape because her vagina produced lubrication.
We might have to sleep in the van.
You should probably remove the.....
Don't bother knockin', if the van is rockin'
.....bumper sticker.
Right. They'll just rape each other.
Good one!
I wonder if the reason why women are less prone to vote GOP is because they always see Republicans rushing to the defense of rapists?
Nah!!
Nasty thread. Having worked on prosecuting many rapes here's my simple take. The law protects a person from personal harm even if they are passed out drunk, drugged, whatever. The first rule in boxing and life is "always protect yourself." When you are too drunk to protect yourself and you are raped, the state will prosecute on your behalf. But anyone w/ half a brain should not put themselves into the situation to have the state act on your behalf, AFTER, you're raped. The state can't prevent a rape, in most cases, you can. Sound reasonable in this cacophony?
Republicans rushing to the defense of rapists?
Suggesting that women take care to avoid dangerous situations equals defending rapists.
In Garage's world, but no other.
I wonder if intelligent people of both sexes are much more inclined to vote GOP because they see so many on the other side willing to tell bald-faced lies for political advantage? Father-of-the-year garage mahal knows that no one here is defending these or any other rapists, but he continues to assert that we have done so, because that's the only way to pretend that he's winning the argument. The rapists are obviously just as guilty as they would be if the victim had been more sensible, and no one here has suggested otherwise. Why does gm lie? And what is he teaching his (alleged) children about honesty?
The world is a rapist, according to leftist democrats like Garage. They see rape under every rock, over every brook, and beyond every horizon.
The party(D).
Salute the rape for your dear democrat party, dear garage.
*high five*
I wonder if intelligent people of both sexes are much more inclined to vote GOP because they see so many on the other side willing to tell bald-faced lies for political advantage?
One would hope. This is very clearly a dishonest argument, made completely in bad faith.
I noticed upstream ricpic playing the race card again. If it had been Maria Sharapova who had said it, would you still be concerned about the race of the victim?
I’m not blaming the girl,” she said, “but if you’re a 16-year-old and you’re drunk like that, your parents should teach you: Don’t take drinks from other people. She’s 16, why was she that drunk where she doesn’t remember?”
That is blaming the girl. And the girl should be blamed for getting herself that drunk.
I've been that drunk way back in my college days. And woke up in strange circumstances that I won't get into. But I was the idiot who got myself that drunk.
Personal responsibility.
garage mahal wrote:
I wonder if the reason why women are less prone to vote GOP is because they always see Republicans rushing to the defense of rapists?
How is saying she was foolish the same as saying she had it coming or deserved to be raped?
Wouldn't you tell your kids to avoid dangerous situations, jr565? How is suggesting that a kid shouldn't be in such a situation blaming her? It's just stating inarguable fact.
Yes, she could have expressed it better. I think what she meant was "I'm not excusing the boys", which she wasn't, and shouldn't. They can be (and are) just as guilty, even if what she did was at best really stupid.
What the quote leaves out is that she later said "Unless someone slipped her something. Which is a different story".
If someone gave her a roofie, then obviously personal responsibility doesn't come into play. And Serena acknowledges that.
But if you get yourself that drunk that someone can take advantage of you like that you are a fool.
And it would be the same if you were texting while walking across the street.
You don't desrve to be hit by a car, but if you are hit by a car, I dont think its blaming the victim to ask "Why were you texting while crossing the street?".
Garage and others are falling for the false dichotomy for which people who can't or won't think critically often fall.
Nothing excuses what these boys did to that girl, and they deserve to be punished severely for their actions.
BUT that doesn't mean she doesn't bear some responsibility for her actions in getting so shit-faced drunk that she was insensate. UNLESS someone spiked her soda with GHB. But I have not heard that that happened...and of course, even though they were all WAAAAY underage, they were all drinking alcohol.
Nathan Alexander said...
WI under GOP control is doing better than just about any similar Blue State
As is often the case, the facts are not quite as Nathan imagines them to be.
BUT that doesn't mean she doesn't bear some responsibility for her actions in getting so shit-faced drunk that she was insensate
Getting drunk doesn't mean a person can be raped. She bears no responsibility whatsoever for being raped.
Cedarford said...
if you want role models - the Williams family is not a bad place to start.
I am not a fan of sports prodigy stories but the Williams sisters look remarkably good in comparison to any of their contemporaries. When degree of difficulty is added to the mix they are truly remarkable.
jr565 said...
What the quote leaves out is that she later said "Unless someone slipped her something. Which is a different story".
Another problem is that US kids often get a very abrupt introduction to alcohol, with the not uncommon result that they get completely wasted on their first exposure to an open bar. The liquor laws here are nuts. I used to feel guilty giving my then underage kids drinks at home but I tried to get them used to social drinking at home to make alcohol seem boring and commonplace in an effort to try to avoid these initial binge drinking episodes.
Somewhat unrelated, I was amazed to watch several local kids leave home in reasonable condition and come home from four year colleges as chronic alcoholics. Although everyone one wants to get up in my face when I suggest this, there is something to be learned from the Europeans regarding teaching kids how to deal with alcohol.
Aaaargh, I hate arguments like this one.
Garage Mahal, if all of us teaching our kids not to do bad stuff resulted in the bad stuff not happening, not only would we have no rape, but we'd have no robbery, mugging, burglary, shoplifting, theft, embezzlement. We'd have no assault. We'd have no manslaughter. We'd have no murder. We'd have no con artists. We'd have no phishing schemes. We'd have no elder abuse.
In fact, we'd have no crime, and anyone whose job it was to prevent crime would be blissfully out of work. Most people don't like to see their livelihood vanish on them, but I think most police really do like it when their workload diminishes, because (like the rest of us) they hate seeing people hurt.
The difficulty, obviously, is that people don't always do what their parents try to teach them. Assume 100% honest and earnest parents all trying to inculcate the Google motto, and you will still get some kids who think "don't be evil" is the wimps' credo. (And of course you can't make that assumption, anyway; there are certainly a lot of criminal parents for whom passing on the family business is a given.)
Oh look: garage mahal once again denies something that absolutely no one here has asserted. Of course the fact that the victim was drunk does not mean that it's OK to rape her. I and others have specifically said that the rapists are just as guilty as they would be if she hadn't been drunk (see for instance my 6:34pm comment). Why does gm continue to lie? Does he advise his (alleged) daughters to go ahead and get as drunk as they please at any time in any company, including (e.g.) a biker bar full of Hell's Angels at 2:00 am? If so, perhaps Child Protective Services needs to step in. (Years ago, I knew a very pretty and rather small rich white woman who was drunk or drugged out one night in Manhattan and decided to take the subway to Harlem at 3:00 am to 'shoot some hoops with the boys'. Most of her friends thought she was lucky to have come back with only a couple of black eyes. Would gm insist that she not be criticized for bad judgment, because - as we all agree - no one had any legal or moral right to assault her?)
AReasonableMan,
Another problem is that US kids often get a very abrupt introduction to alcohol, with the not uncommon result that they get completely wasted on their first exposure to an open bar.
In this case, the kid was five years under age. She had no business anywhere near an open bar. That might be one of the other things GM, say, would think it prudent to teach his children, except that apparently it's judgmental to suggest that a person who is several years away from the legal drinking age might be well advised not to get totally shit-faced among a crowd of strangers.
I Callahan made the analogy to a person leaving the car unlocked and the keys in the ignition, but really it applies to all sorts of thing. If you leave your password as "password" or "12345" or the like, the person who steals your data is just as much a thief as if you had a proper password, but you're still bone from the neck up. If you write your PIN actually on your ATM card, the person who cleans out your account after you drop your card on the sidewalk is guilty, but you are still an idiot. If you think the shortest way from Market St. to Van Ness Ave. in San Francisco by foot is Turk St. (as it is, technically, from some places on Market), and you therefore walk up Turk St. at 11 p.m., you are nuts. Anything that might or might not happen to you would be wrong, but you would still be nuts.
Nathan Alexander said...
"[Simon, t]hat's extremely sexist."
My apologies if reality refuses to conform to dogma.
"You aren't seriously trying to assert that auto-reflex actions indicate knowing willingness, are you?"
I'm seriously trying to assert that the statistical incidence of female-on-male rape is comparable to the statistical incidence of purported alien abduction, and is about as credible. Men and women are not alike in this regard. When a man has sex of which he isn't proud, he calls it "sex," not "rape."
Garage mahal just wants more passed out drunk girls to make things easier for the rapists.
Remember, if you tell kids not to get in the creepy guy's windowless van who says he wants them to help him eat candy and look for his lost puppy then garage will accuse you victim blaming.
A: I got mugged and beaten up last night.
B: Oh, that's terrible! What happened?
A: Well, I was walking down Tuff Street at 2am with some hundred dollar bills hanging out my pockets and some goons came up...
B: Wow, you shouldn't have been doing that. What were you thinking?
A: Don't blame the victim, you fucking asshole! It's my fucking right to walk anywhere I want, anytime I want, with bills spilling from my pockets!
B: I'm just sayin...
A: Don't point the finger at me! Go lecture the parents who should be teaching their kids not to steal!
What's sickening about commentaries like garage's is that he's pretending to be obtuse so he can wave around his big wand of moral preening. How dare you blame the victim!
It's amazing how people like him constantly lecture us about nuance and how , and yet on this simple point he is unable to grasp that you can simultaneously believe that the rapist is responsible for committing rape, but the girl was foolish for engaging in such risky behavior. It's not 'blaming the victim,' but it is accurate.
Garage says teach, but resists the opportunity to learn from the mistakes of others.
Am I one of the only men that finds all this "Teach your sons not to rape" thing insulting? I never had to be taught not to rape people; I've been around drunken women and not raped them. The implication that, as a man, I need to be moralized and watched like a hawk around women to ensure I don't drug and rape them is just insulting.
Also, I think it is important to note: No one is saying she's to blame -for being attacked.- People are saying that it is possible to take precautions to reduce the risks of being attacked, and it would be prudent for people to take those actions. I don't walk around bad neighborhoods late at night counting large bills, for example.
"I wonder if the reason why women are less prone to vote GOP is because they always see Republicans rushing to the defense of rapists?"
-- And, I'm sure, Ted Kennedy would have brought great comfort to Mary Jo Kopeche in her old age. Democrats are just as willing to defend rapists/those who commit sexual assaults. It just seems like no big deal then.
Matthew Sablan said...
Am I one of the only men that finds all this "Teach your sons not to rape" thing insulting?
When all you have is a crayon, everything becomes a cartoon.
Well, I guess I should be more exact. There was no specific "don't rape people" lesson, that needed to be repeated. It came with the general "be good" lessons received through normal means. Of all the people I've known, bad and good, none of them have ever been taught "Rape? Guess that's OK."
Believe it or not, cartoon villains are not the problem in the world.
We can see where garage gets his marching orders:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324577904578555581403945500.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLETopOpinion
If she voluntarily gets drunk off her ass, nothing should happen to her,
That's correct. Were you taught differently?
A jackass came to my house when I was younger and throwing a party, got drunk, and pissed all over my floor.
We drove his drunken ass to his parents house and left his piss-covered self on their front lawn where they found him a few hours later. A friend suggested driving him one state over and leaving him, but I wasn't about to go that far.
Let me guess --- I was evil for doing that to somebody who came into my house without permission and pissed all over my stuff.
Well, if those were my kids they wouldn't have raped anyone.
Famous words of somebody who doesn't have kids.
Didn't your parents tell you not to make an ass of yourself in public?
Jeffrey Dahmer's parents must not have emphasized that you shouldn't kill and eat house guests.
And Ted Kennedy's parents probably didn't emphasize you shouldn't drive a woman into a lake and leave her to die...
...actually, yeah, they probably actually didn't emphasize that at all.
I wonder if Hitler's parents forgot to have the traditional "You shouldn't liquidate an entire group of people" talk with him. Imagine the lives spared if they had.
@Simon,
So are you claiming women never sexually abuse male children?
Are you claiming that statistically, women never pressure men into sex, or never take advantage of a drunk man to have sex he would refuse when sober?
Matthew Sablan said...
"Am I one of the only men that finds all this "Teach your sons not to rape" thing insulting? I never had to be taught not to rape people; I've been around drunken women and not raped them."
You really aren't, and Garage's advice only goes so far, but I don't think that he's basically wrong so far as it goes. We often assume that children will absorb traditional morality from the culture, but the culture has rotted to the core, and it's no longer safe to assume that "don't rape people" is a universal value that children will just pick up. I agree with Garage, to this extent: We ought to be teaching kids explicitly what it was once safe to teach them implicitly. Good examples aren't enough in a world where they are surrounded by bad ones.
Nathan Alexander said...
@Simon,
So are you claiming women never sexually abuse male children?
There's a story on the news at the moment: A female teacher is accused of having sex with two male students. I don't know any details, and I don't really care to, but I can all-but guarantee that if it were a male teacher and female students, the tone of the story would be very different. People would be talking about sexual abuse. They would be talking about rape. They would be talking about shame and stigma. I doubt, however, that either of those boys feels that they were raped or abused, and if there are social consequences for them, they are likely to be uniformly positive.
Males and females are different. They just are, and no amount of feminist dogma is going to change that.
"Are you claiming that statistically, women never pressure men into sex, or never take advantage of a drunk man to have sex he would refuse when sober?"
One can scarcely conceive of it happening at all, let alone rising to a statistically significant level.
What's wrong with what she said? When my daughter got to be of a certain age I told her - among other things - not to get so damn drunk she was out of control and not to drink anything that anyone else gave her or that she didn't open herself. So to now say "She shouldn't have done that" is wrong?
This is NOT "blaming the victim", folks. It's telling people to act smart so that they won't BE a victim.
Garage:
"Teaching your sons to not rape women seems like it should be a pretty simple thing to do."
So is teaching your daughters that not all sons have learned that lesson.
Garage, I have a son and a daughter. I taught both my kids to have respect for other human beings and to not abuse them. I also taught both my kids that other people either haven't be taught this or have ignored what they've been taught, so they need to be prepared for that by taking the steps necessary to protect themselves from being victimized.
I don't know if you have kids. Tell me this
If you have/had a daughter, wouldn't you teach her to watch her drinks and to not take one from someone else?
Would you not teach her that there are rapists out there that will try to get her drunk and take advantage of her?
Do you think other people should do this?
Do you think that any girl/woman who does not follow such advice is foolish?
Please answer the questions specifically, as opposed to ducking them by saying "Well, if people would teach their sons not to rape, we wouldn't have to do this." That's true - but moot.
I've been an adult volunteer in the Boy Scouts (a.k.a., a "Scouter") for the last 20 years. I can tell you:
1) I have seen some very decent and intelligent people horrified when I tell them something that their to-all-outward-appearances-decent kids have done. I assure you they taught their kid not to do that. News flash - kids don't always act as they've been taught. Peer pressure, stress, etc. can cause them to act outside their parents' training. If you don't understand this you don't understand children.
2) I have had kids whose parents, shall we say, did not teach them what we would all accept as behavorial norms. "Why did you threaten that boy with a knife?" "Because my Dad taught me that if someone did something bad to me, I should do something worse to them so that they won't try anything like that again." Not to mention the outright racism and other biases I've heard on occasion.
Should parents not teach their children how to prepare for that?
Should children who have been taught something not be held accountable if they do not do what they have been taught?
Does holding them accountable automatically mean that the people perpetrating the act are therefore NOT held accountable?
nspinelli:
"The law protects a person from personal harm even if they are passed out drunk, drugged, whatever."
You may be using the word "protects" in a legal mode, but let's be clear: the law doesn't protect you from a damn thing. It WILL permit you to get the State to severely punish the perpetrator if they are caught by ensuring that your foolish action doesn't mean that you bear legal responsibility for someone else's heinous act.
BUT:
You will still have been raped.
It's up to you to protect yourself.
Garage:
I leave my car unlocked on a public street. Someone opens it, pops the trunk lever, and steals my laptop. Was I or was I not foolish for leaving my car unlocked?
CWJ:
"Why do any of you engage Garage?"
1) To see if he/she is really serious.
2) Because Garage and other like him/her are trying to create a world free of personal responsibility and laden with governmental responsibility - which will need just about all the money that productive people can generate to even pretend to keep up with that. It cannot be allowed to pass or it becomes the norm.
"All evil needs to do to succeed is for good men to do nothing."
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