Prosecutor John Guy's first words to the jury recounted what Zimmerman told a dispatcher in a call shortly after spotting Martin: "F------ punks. These a-------. They always get away." Zimmerman... viewed [Martin] "as someone about to a commit a crime in his neighborhood.... And he acted on it. That's why we're here... He shot him for the worst of all reasons: because he wanted to.... Zimmerman thought it was his right to rid his neighborhood of anyone who did not belong."
२४ जून, २०१३
"Trayvon Martin armed himself with a concrete sidewalk and used it to smash George Zimmerman's head."
Said the defense attorney, in his opening statement. Meanwhile:
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«सर्वात जुने ‹थोडे जुने 427 पैकी 401 – 427I think, and this is just my opinion, that Trayvon got mad that some dude was eyeballing him as if he didn't belong there and so went to show him the error or of his ways. Not remembering or caring that he doesn't live in the community so there would be an assumption that you were suspicious until you were proven not to be. He should have offered that proof.
Sure, but his judgement was impaired due at least somewhat to his age. Male brains don't finishing maturing until maybe 25, and one of the last things to mature is judgement. Martin's big problem here was that he was being held to adult standards, due to his height and maybe face hidden by his hood, and not given the latitude that is given children. Not Zimmerman's problem though, except that he is on trial now, but rather the fault of Martin and his parents for not making clear to him that adult sized males will inevitably be treated in these situations as adults by other adult males until the find out differently.
Bruce Hayden said...
Hoodies are worn, at least in part, because it makes hiding faces easier.
It was raining. I sometimes wear a hoodie when there is light rain.
jr565 said...
There was no indication that he wasn't anything but someone who was there to break into someone's house.
These constant attempts to convict Martin of thought crimes are really wrong. Martin had every right to be where he was. He was the guest of a paid up member of the community.
These constant attempts to convict Martin of thought crimes are really wrong. Martin had every right to be where he was. He was the guest of a paid up member of the community.
Who was not known to anyone in the community except the person who he was a guest of. And George Zimmerman was a member of the community watch who was supposed to look for suspicious behavior and call the police about it. He had every right an even a responsibility to view Trayvon as a suspicious character until proven otherwise.
Trayvon was responsible for proving otherwise. ZImmerman was not responsible for somehow being able to read minds.
Sure, but his judgement was impaired due at least somewhat to his age.
And his use of drugs.
"Since Zimmerman was armed I think they behaved correctly. I would not intervene in a fight in which I thought there was a high probability that someone was armed."
On what basis would anyone think he might be armed more than Martin? He wasn't open carrying. He didn't have his gun out and confront Martin.
If people didn't intervene it wasn't out of fear that *Zimmerman* was a danger to them.
And I don't know that anyone has an obligation to intervene but you seem to think that they have a duty NOT to intervene as you feel that Zimmerman shouldn't have cared that someone seemed to be scoping out the neighborhood and keep saying that Zimmerman did something wrong in the "totality" of his actions.
But unless Zimmerman made first physical contact or called Martin's mother a slut and therefore is guilty of "fighting words", I don't see how that's possible.
"These constant attempts to convict Martin of thought crimes are really wrong. Martin had every right to be where he was. He was the guest of a paid up member of the community."
He was wandering around in the cold rain (not a nice warm summer downpour which a person might enjoy walking in) and wandering between houses and buildings.
Is the "thought crime" behaving in a remarkably odd way?
Zimmerman couldn't *know* that Martin had smoked pot and had a (now shown) history of burglary but he could tell that Martin was acting like something was up without reading his mind and as he didn't SHOOT him for wandering around in the cold rain and scoping out houses but only called the police... what is your problem?
I have to think that what you object to is neighborhood watches or any neighbor calling the cops because they see someone in their neighbor's yard in the dark since they can't KNOW that it's not just the neighbor.
I'd prefer, OTOH, to live in a society where innocent people behaving in suspicious manners and people breaking into their own homes get the cops called on them.
Synova - fighting words really don't legally justify someone physically assaulting the person saying, for example, negative things about their mother. Sure, it might in fact trigger a physical attack, but not a legally justified one. There are instances where it might work as a defense, but those instances are getting harder and harder to find. We have come a long way since one our most brilliant founders, Federalist Papers author, and whose portrait is on our $10 bills, was killed in a duel over honor.
Synova said...
If people didn't intervene it wasn't out of fear that *Zimmerman* was a danger to them.
You seem surprised that other people didn't directly intervene. My point, which remains unchanged, was that Zimmerman, because he was carrying a semi-automatic weapon was a realistic danger to these people and that they acted prudently. He did in fact then go on to shoot someone in a reckless manner.
Synova said...
Is the "thought crime" behaving in a remarkably odd way?
Zimmerman couldn't *know* that Martin had smoked pot and had a (now shown) history of burglary but he could tell that Martin was acting like something was up
There is no evidence for most of what you state here. The toxicology report showed that THC levels were so low as to almost certainly not be connected to recent intoxication. He not only wasn't stoned but he was not even a habitual smoker. THC has a long half life. I could go to my local high school and half of the students would have higher THC levels.
He wasn't behaving oddly. He walked to the store to buy another kid some skittles.
I don't think that you can blame Martin's erratic behavior on his pot usage. My memory is that his tox screen came back with levels of THC, etc. consistent with him having smoked pot several days earlier. More likely, I think, that he be stoned on "lean". His AZ watermelon ice Te a and Skittles, along with a lot of his Tweats would seem to indicate his interest in that drug.
What is going to be interesting is whether or not the defense gets the 7/11 video of Martin into evidence. My bet is yes. It shows a very erratic Martin shortly before he was shot. I think that it goes a long way in explaining Zimmerman's suspicions of Martin.
Bruce Hayden said...
I don't think that you can blame Martin's erratic behavior on his pot usage. My memory is that his tox screen came back with levels of THC, etc. consistent with him having smoked pot several days earlier. More likely, I think, that he be stoned on "lean".
This is hysterical BS. There is absolutely no evidence for this claim.
What is going to be interesting is whether or not the defense gets the 7/11 video of Martin into evidence. My bet is yes. It shows a very erratic Martin shortly before he was shot
This video has already been shown and it is completely different to what you claim. In fact Martin is very calm and well coordinated.
"You seem surprised that other people didn't directly intervene."
Not at all. I was attempting to illustrate a point.
To the larger question... Yes, I think that the world is a better place when we view ourselves as responsible for our failure to put ourselves in danger to save someone in peril. It bothers me that you seem to feel differently.
"My point, which remains unchanged, was that Zimmerman, because he was carrying a semi-automatic weapon was a realistic danger to these people and that they acted prudently."
And if he was unarmed something else would be true? I don't see how because no one would have known he had a gun at all if witnesses so much as burst from their houses and hollered "WTF is going on out here!"
And Martin would still be alive.
Oh... that was what I brought it up to illustrate... the fallacy of the argument that if Zimmerman had just driven on by that Martin would be alive today and therefore it's Zimmerman's fault he's dead. No, I don't blame anyone for calling 911 instead of running out there, but it's still *true* that Zimmerman isn't the only one who could have made different choices and secured Martin's life.
"He did in fact then go on to shoot someone in a reckless manner."
Unless the forensic evidence shows something other than one shot at point blank range where does "reckless" come into it? Not at the shooting, certainly. So you're back at... "ignore the shadowy figure in your neighbor's back yard" and place the *moment* of recklessness long before the shooting happened.
I didn't claim that Martin was acting *stoned*.
Humans are very very good at reading body language and identifying someone acting out of place (which I hesitate to say because I'm not saying he didn't have a right to be in that *place* but the English language uses the colloquialism "out of place" and it means what it means).
This means that people who aren't up to something walk through the rain with their hoodie over their head in a way that is easily recognizable and then dismissable as "went to the store for skittles and am on my way home."
But even if Zimmerman is a full blown Aspie with not the first clue how to interpret what sort of human behavior counts as "off" or not... he did nothing even remotely wrong in keeping an eye on his neighborhood, calling the police, or attempting to keep eyes on the person who seemed out of place.
Synova said...
And if he was unarmed something else would be true? I don't see how because no one would have known he had a gun at all if witnesses so much as burst from their houses and hollered "WTF is going on out here!"
To me you are just illustrating the problems that inevitably occur when there is high probability of someone carrying a gun. People legitimately feel reluctant to get involved. I have broken up multiple fights in my time just as you suggest. In retrospect not always wisely.
AReasonableMan wrote:
He wasn't behaving oddly. He walked to the store to buy another kid some skittles.
and how long did it take Trayvon to walk from the 7/11 back to where Zimmerman saw hiim? Plenty of time to smoke or do lean or whatever. If he looked fine in the 7/11 video it oesnt mean that he looked fine by the time he got back. There was more than an hour of time between waving 7/11 and being in the gated community. And the walk to 7/11 was a five minute walk.
Now, I won't say that that proves that Trayvon was doing drugs during that time, but it does show that there was plenty of time for him to drugs, and also shows that just because he was one way on the video doesn't mean he was that way when Zimmerman saw him.
As to what he was doing that looked suicpicious, Zimmerman said it looked like he was on drugs, and darting between buildings and looking in windows.
There may be a perfectly reasonable explanation for said behavior, but if the neighborhood watch doesn't know you and you are exhibiting that behavior, it looks suspicious.
jr565 said...
Plenty of time to smoke or do lean or whatever.
Which would have shown up in a toxicology report but didn't.
Also, in Regards to the idea that he was getting Lean he had two out of the three in gredients, and his facebook account showed that he had asked his friend in the past on how to get the ingredients to make Lean.
On his account there's also suggestion that he was selling drugs and involved in at least one fight club style fight.
It therefore is not inconceivable to think that the skittles and watermelon juice might have been used for the purposes of making Lean, and when describing him as punching someone MMA style it is not inconceivable hat he knew how to do so because he was involved in MMA style fights on a local level.
jr565 said...
Also, in Regards to the idea that he was getting Lean he had two out of the three in gredients, and his facebook account showed that he had asked his friend in the past on how to get the ingredients to make Lean.
On his account there's also suggestion that he was selling drugs and involved in at least one fight club style fight.
It therefore is not inconceivable to think that the skittles and watermelon juice might have been used for the purposes of making Lean, and when describing him as punching someone MMA style it is not inconceivable hat he knew how to do so because he was involved in MMA style fights on a local level.
For a long time unicorns were not inconceivable. I am not sure this meets any standard of judiciary evidence. For starters there is no evidence of this in the toxicology report.
AReasonableMan wrote:
For a long time unicorns were not inconceivable. I am not sure this meets any standard of judiciary evidence. For starters there is no evidence of this in the toxicology report.
In the case of Lean considering he had the skittles on him and didn't have the Robitussin he probably hadn't made it yet. I'm just saying that there is ample evidence that he was a Lean user and that this might be for that purpose.
And the toxicology report found THC in his system meaning he had smoked in the past 30 days. I didnt say it proved anything,except that the characterization of him put out by the defenders is not, shall we say, accurate.
Here is a transcript of Trayvon's facebook acount where he has a discussion about Lean, and DXM:
Trayvon:meee!u just don’t know wat been goin on da past week bra geeeesh
Mackenzie:Dumbryte Baksh:lamaoo creep u get throwed without a nigga
Trayvon: unow a connect for codine (codeine)?
Mackenzie:why nigga
Trayvon: to make some more.
Mackenzie: u tawkin bout the pill codeine
Trayvon: no the liquid. Its meds. I had it b4
Mackenzie: hell naw u could just use robitussin nd soda to make some fire ass lean
Trayvon: codine is a higher dose of dxm
Mackenzie: I fell u but u need prescription to get it
Trayvon: dats y I asked if u know someone dat has but ima stop burnin
Mackenzie: Ohh I doubt it nd why?
Trayvon: is to roped and u can get the same vibe off lean.
http://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/trayvondrugdealing-2.jpg
Bruce Hayden: Sure, but his judgement was impaired due at least somewhat to his age. Male brains don't finishing maturing until maybe 25, and one of the last things to mature is judgement.
Someone ought to tell the US goverment that. When I was in my early twenties, I was handling nuclear weapons, flying around in Navy planes. Hell most of people bombing Germany and sinking Japanese aircraft carriers were young men in their early twenties. If we had to make such people wait till their judgment matured at age 25 we wouild have lost the war.
You are unbelievably off base to suggest that a 17 year old doesn't know any better than to beat someone's head into the sidewalk for the "crime" of following him.
Let me guess. You want Zimmerman convicted of murder, right?
Gene - never intended to imply that, but rather that if one of the two was showing lack of judgement that night, it was more likely Martin. Is it more credible that Martin swung on a shorter pudgy man, knocking him down, beating his head into the concrete, thinking that he would get away with it due to the darkness, etc., and ignoring the possibility that his victim might be legally carrying a concealed weapon? Or that Zimmerman pulled his gun on Martin to maybe hold him for the police who were in route? That he would ignore all his CCW and NW training and all of a sudden go vigilante?
Continuing - Martin's Tweats seem to suggest that he wasn't overly worried about right and wrong, but what he could get away with. He was a pot user, and at least tried to get prescription codeine for lean. He claims to have hit a bus driver. His handle of No Limits Nigga strongly implies, at least to me, that he was involved in pushing the legal limits with his behavior. So, yes, he probably knew that assaulting Zimmerman was wrong, I think it likely that he thought he could get away wit it.
I think that military life is a bit different than that faced by Martin. I will suggest that you (and other military personnel) have a rigid set of bounds that you knew very well. You weren't about to cross the lines that the military set in most cases, because you knew the consequences. Swinging on an officer or superior? You knew the consequences. And, yes, boot camp a least partially designed to instill obedience to superiors, no matter how much you think that they are picking on you.
So, maybe to simplify, obedience and discipline are used by the military to replace judgement in those with less fully matured brains.
Let me guess. You want Zimmerman convicted of murder, right?
Not in the least, and the evidence so far seems to strongly suggest that Zimmerman should never have been charged, and, thus, that the trial is more political than anything. And, yes, ARM, and Martin's other supporters, are partisan hacks, more interested in political correctness than justice.
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