"My main thing is looking for a cemetery,” he said. “I’ve been making calls. I’ve been turned down by every one of them. All these people are petrified.”Petrified of what? I can think of at least 5 things that are completely rational to fear.
The funeral director has sign-carrying protesters outside his door.
“He should burn in hell,” said Ann Mink of Worcester, who was part of the sign-toting crowd.When you stroll through a cemetery, do you think about whether some of the souls previously housed in the bodies at your feet are suffering in hell? When you're choosing a cemetery, do you contemplate whether it contains bodies of souls now in hell and attempt to select one that's free of the damned? Would it trouble you to bury a loved one near the body of someone you believed was damned? If you don't believe in damnation, would you avoid cemeteries that contained bodies of those who you think would deserve to burn in hell, if there were such a place?
पोस्ट्स
१५४ टिप्पण्या:
Cremate the fucker. Then, flush his ashes down the toilet.
I hope he makes it to heaven.
Allen S - you took the words right out of my mouth.
This murdering a-hole is not worthy of space on precious US soil.
Another example of mankind's preoccupation with memorials and symbolism.
If anything, Tsarnaev's body absent a spirit long gone has no power or meaning.
Perhaps the Kohler Company could make the headstone, based on their 'waterless' model?
Fr Martin: is there a purgatory path available to Tsarnaev for what he did?
M Stone:
Anyone can be forgiven; no one goes to heaven without turning to God and responding to his mercy.
Remember the good thief: "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." "This day you shall be with me in Paradise."
Purgatory is not a compromise between heaven and hell; it's the finishing-school for heaven.
All these people are petrified.
Minerals in the ground water, probably.
They could send his parts to the same place the amputated and blown off body parts of his victims were disposed of. But do anything that avoids mummifying him for display as hero of the Muslim Cult of Infidel Murdering Jihadists Shrine at the 9/11 Mosque.
Quite a contrasst in comments so far.
Cemetaries are interesting places. There was a cemetary a block from my house where I grew up. The neighborhood kids would congregate there @ night and tell spooky stories. We respected the graves[Ukranian Orthodox Church]. I always felt a certain peace there. When I was doing surveillance, I found cemetaries a great place to be able to sit for long periods of time..just look bereaved. Whenever I go home, I visit the grave sites of my parents. My siblings loved my parents as much as I but NEVER visit. They also never hung out @ our childhood cemetary. People have many problems w/ death, and cemetaries are all about death.
Here is a perfect article for what is going on or the question is how do you show your protest and denunciation for what they did: I will link this article from 2008. How will the community denounce what these people did in the name of their religion?
Cemetaries are for training dogs to track. You need an undisturbed lawn so that the laid track is the only one there.
These days they chase dog trainers out.
I watched an episode of the Sopranos last night where Christopher had a near death experience. Pauly Walnuts gave a hilarious explanation about purgatory and how you compute your sentence in that "finishing school." It involved mortal and venial sins w/ corresponding multipliers. He factored in the eternity realtivity and said, "2000 years is like 2 days here."
NDS:
I loved the Sopranos, but for obvious reasons, the characters might not be the best sources for how to get to heaven.
Anyone can be forgiven; no one goes to heaven without turning to God and responding to his mercy.
Agreed, Fr, but we have until the point of death to ask forgivenness, as did the thief on the cross.
I wonder whether Tsarnaev before his final moments in the shootout did ask. Something tells me no.
I like the video of the funeral director who says people will be worried about a "terrorist buried next to their Uncle Freddy".
Brother and I've been arguing for years over who gets buried next to Mom who's heaven bound and who goes next to Grandma who wasn't.
Suppose he were an organ donor: should people object to receiving his kidney, corneas, etc.? Would they even be told?
The heaven that this creep is thinking about will award him 72 virgins for killing and maiming his victims. It's not the same heaven that we are talking about. Not even close.
If I were the owner of a cemetery, I would worry about the living follower-ons and copycats making pilgrimages to the grave site, not to mention defacements of neighboring graves. Look what the worshipers of Jim Morrison did.
Do it the way the Romans and the Limeys did:
String him up on a lamppost as an example.
Fr Martin Fox said...
I hope he makes it to heaven.
Padre, he murdered 3 people and maimed almost 200.
With all due respect, this is why people are turned off by the new (post 1970) Church.
This guy earned his place in Hell.
And, if you're going to bury him in a casket, for the love of God, throw a couple of pounds of bacon in with him.
We should all be tossed in a volcano. It's really still a burial, but you use the same hole over and over, and there will be no nasty corpse left under your feet to get offended later. This would be very effective and could be quite cheap, if they could just get the cost of making volcanoes whittled down. I call it The Leftist Burial: we make everyone equal by burning everyone in Hell.
I wonder what the virgins in hell look like.
Death (and burial or cremation) in dignity is earned just as everything else in life.
I want a padre who thinks and believes like Father Martin, and a blue collar guy who thinks and believes like AllenS.
Edutcher, Christ died for the sins of all mankind, including Tamerlan Tsarnaev, and he desires that all mankind acknowledge him, repent of their sins and join him in Heaven, including Tamerlan Tsarnaev.
Bury him at sea right next to the guy they pretended was Osama Bin Laden.
If you don't believe in damnation, would you avoid cemeteries that contained bodies of those who you think would deserve to burn in hell, if there were such a place?
What ridiculous questions. More condescending nonsense from Althouse.
No one in the article says anything like this. The only mention of hell is on an angry protest sign.
I doubt any believer or non-believer thinks along the lines of Althouse's rhetorical questions.
They don't want the memory of their loved ones associated with monsters. Funeral directors don't want their cemeteries associated with the bad publicity and possible demonstrations associated with monsters.
Whether that happens is up to TT.
Bury him at Guantanamo.
AllenS said...
And, if you're going to bury him in a casket, for the love of God, throw a couple of pounds of bacon in with him.
No, do it Her Majesty (Victoria)'s way:
Toss him in the ground wrapped in a pig skin.
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...
Edutcher, Christ died for the sins of all mankind, including Tamerlan Tsarnaev, and he desires that all mankind acknowledge him, repent of their sins and join him in Heaven, including Tamerlan Tsarnaev.
Do we really think that happened in his last moments of consciousness?
The guy was an Islamic fanatic.
PS I respect what you're trying to say, but Hell is there for a reason.
Medical waste, like an abortion.
Baron Zemo is a conspiracy nut. He thinks the moon landing was a hoax, and Babe Ruth was an alien.
Boston harbor?
dc said...
I wonder what the virgins in hell look like.
5/4/13, 10:20 AM
LOL There are no virgins in hell.
In hell, the virgins are all lesbians.
The heaven that this creep is thinking about will award him 72 virgins
Ah yes. The view that Heaven is a brothel. (Or are you supposed just to sit around and chat?)
I enjoy walking through the cemetery near my house. I never ponder the goodness/evil of the entombed. Sometimes I think of how they die -- especially the younger ones. But it's a very peaceful plot of land. Sometimes I take the dog, just in case there are ghosts to scare away, especially if I'm walking through at night.
Anyone can be forgiven; no one goes to heaven without turning to God and responding to his mercy.
Wow. So God will let literally anything slide, except a healthy skepticism at evidence that doesn't seem to lead to His existence? Sorry, but that's just horseshit.
Here in Ky in 1989 there was a workplace shooting that left nine people dead including the gunman who died of a self inflicted gunshot wound.
Joseph Thomas Wesbecker was his name and he was buried next to one of his victims, a brother-in-law of one of my cousins whose last name was White. The White family had to pay to have their loved one disinterred and moved.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/photogallery/murder-by-city.html?curPhoto=26
garage, The tolerant atheist.
With all due respect.
For the record I'm agnostic, and I don't hate anyone for following a religion. But the religions that are out there are mostly a bunch of nonsense.
He should be cremated. Why is this even an issue?....I suppose the ashes could be mailed back to the parents in a cardboard box by the cheapest available carrier. The Irish still remember that Cromwell stabled his horses in St. Patrick's Cathedral. I don't recommend desecrating the body. That just gives the assholes another reason to feel self righteous. Treat the remains with indifference, not contempt.
and he desires that all mankind acknowledge him, repent of their sins and join him in Heaven, including Tamerlan Tsarnaev
I'm not real clear on what you're talking about.
Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’ “But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’” But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’ “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last”
What the hell does hell and damnation got to do with it???
Even the most militant atheist can understand not wanting to be buried next to some scumbag.
There's a reason why Bib Laden was given a sea burial.
That might be a good result here.
Problem solved.
I recently went to a funeral. The burial site was bought many years ago at a cemetery in a country setting. They chose a plot that was under a tree and on a hill.
They chose that spot because it was a nice place to lie after they have departed from this earth.
The same considerations for picking a nice spot applies to not wanting to be buried next to a bad spot, like a garbage dumb or outhouse. Where the people in the same cemetery are headed - up or down - has nothing to do with it, but their notoriety while in this world may very well play into whether it is a nice and peaceful spot or not.
They could seal him in a pressure cooker with explosives and detonate it in the desert. Except the environmentalists might not like it.
I believe the protestors in Mass have sort of implied that any cemetery that takes him in and his location is discovered risks turning their cemetery into a public urinal.
And if not that, a place where some choice other substances will be dumped on the grass above him.
I say it would send a powerful message to Muslims and to any "self-radicalizing" ones that Americans consider Muslim terrorists so vile and evil that they will not accept one buried in, and thus polluting, American soil. Because that is what The People think....lawyers and talk of Tamerlans "precious rights" nonwithstanding.
Now if we can work on not giving the living ones welfare and visas to America.
It may also make for a nice hot potato.
If the People of America don't want the foreign monsters body in our soil or people will desecrate it.....what Muslim country wants to take his corpse?
Garage:
Well, when you die, and you meet God, I hope he offers to forgive you, and invites you into heaven.
If you don't wish to accept the invitation, that's too bad, but it's up to you.
And if God chooses to forgive, that's his business, isn't it?
After all, he died on the Cross to atone for all sins, including this fellow's (whose name I don't dare try to spell).
Edutcher:
Do you really think priests, prior to 1970, would not want to save this man's soul?
Citations, please?
Edutcher:
It may surprise you, but murderous people have been repenting, and been forgiven, by the Catholic Church, since, well, Good Friday:
"Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
"This day you will be with me in Paradise."
Was that another manifestation of the post-1970 Church?
Edutcher:
So, do you object to the Catholic Church receiving Bernard Nathanson? The numbers he murdered vastly dwarf this fellow.
@Fr Martin Fox: You're talking about TT's soul; others are talking about his remains. Two very different things.
@Fr Martin Fox: Remind us again of the teachings of proper burials as opposed to reception in Heaven.
El Pollo:
I am not confused; others may be.
The question of this man's damnation to hell wasn't introduced by me; it was in the original post.
Fr. Fox
I also sincerely hope that speedbump makes it to heaven...but after a billion years in purgatory.Does my attitude pass the "Love your Enemy"admonition or flunk it?
El Pollo:
I'm not terribly interested in discussing his burial, but his body should be treated with respect, because it's the right thing to do. He is a creature of God, no matter what his sins are.
If we want to start inflicting punishments on the mortal remains of people, based on their sins, that is going to be a tricky business.
DC:
Purgatory is one of many ways God's justice is accomplished. But it's God's justice, not ours.
I'd say humanity doesn't have such great moral standing to wag its collective finger in God's face, complaining about his failure to appreciate justice.
Well, when you die, and you meet God, I hope he offers to forgive you, and invites you into heaven
Well I appreciate that. But I would ask God to send me to where I prefer to be: in pitch black non-existence for eternity. Wouldn't want to run into Hitler, who made some lame ass, last minute death bed conversion to escape the fires.
They're probably scared of vandalism.
I don't think that anyone really cares too much about who is buried in the same cemetery. Also, isn't there parts of cemeteries reserved for indigents and such?
@Fr Martin Fox: I see no reason why the funeral director should be taken seriously. There is no directive saying he must be buried amongst the remains of other dead. The fact is, he's got a body he can't get rid of and the notoriety may be costing him business.
Hitler was cremated. Why not this fellow? He urned it.
AllenS said...
Cremate the fucker. Then, flush his ashes down the toilet.
5/4/13, 9:40 AM
No. Wrap him in pigskin. Then cremate or bury. Make it a public ceremony.
If you want to dissuade this sort of activity from Muslims then invoke pigs. They should be feeding the other one sausage and bacon and ham and execute him by injecting pigs blood into the IV.
"Wow. So God will let literally anything slide, except a healthy skepticism at evidence that doesn't seem to lead to His existence? Sorry, but that's just horseshit."
That's standard Christianity, certainly Protestantism, certainly the Evangelicals, and apparently the Catholics all agree.
This has been standard Christian doctrine For Ever. How can you be so ignorant as to not have known that?
garage mahal said...
Well, when you die, and you meet God, I hope he offers to forgive you, and invites you into heaven
Well I appreciate that. But I would ask God to send me to where I prefer to be: in pitch black non-existence for eternity. Wouldn't want to run into Hitler, who made some lame ass, last minute death bed conversion to escape the fires.
5/4/13, 12:18 PM
I would.
But then again in that situation the entity named God described in the bible probably gave him something more than a punch in the face.
Also a theological discussion about who is more likely to be in heaven, Hitler or the Jews he murdered, never ends well.
I don't think that anyone really cares too much about who is buried in the same cemetery.
You don't think that the family members of the dead victims would object to this guy being buried next to their loved ones?
Garage:
Has it occurred to you that if you meet God, you don't get to dictate terms to him?
God gives you a choice of happiness by living in concert with reality or living in torment in eternal, futile rebellion against reality.
For what it's worth, my inclinations to bury the body with a side of bacon (or other variations) has more to do with a message sent to the living than it does with the treatment of the dead and nothing to do with the soul.
Jay said...
and he desires that all mankind acknowledge him, repent of their sins and join him in Heaven, including Tamerlan Tsarnaev
I'm not real clear on what you're talking about.
I think Fr Martin Fox is reinventing Biblical and Catholic thought on Hell. (Not to mention the scumbag's and other Muslim's own Islamic beliefs on hell)
Meaning Hell is not a place of eternal damnation for those who failed to repent while on earth - but in Fr Martin Fox's world - only a temporary place for souls who once they find how much hell sucks, will diligently work on cleaning up their act, beg forgiveness, and then go to heaven.
In Catholic doctrine, as I understand it, Fr. Fox is either saying Tamerlan Tsarnaev, and folks like bin Laden and Mohammed Atta are actually in Purgatory/Limbo- or Purgatory/Limbo doesn't exist and Hell is actually a finishing school for Heaven.
At least the turn-the-other cheek, milksop, everyone is forgiven eventually variant of Traditional Christianity makes more sense than the Evangelicals. Who think God being the Master of a Universe with more inhabited worlds than Earth and Mars put together (see Drakes Equation) - sent his only begotten Son to die on one of those sand grains to redeem one small tribe of very good fairy tale writers. Who amount to what the Master of All the Universe likely regarded, in his scale of things as 40,000 atoms of nothingness in one sand grain. And primitive comms being what they were in the days of Christ, Evangelicals are hard-pressed to explain their notions of Hell. Why 90% of Humanity that lived and died in the 2,000 years since his time that never heard of one messainic preacher, never got the Good Word - are somehow consigned to hell because they didn't have the info or correct ideology, inc. Catholics and Jews, to accept the Evangelical spew that they are all doomed to hell without a mini-ritual in which they accept Christ, not God, as their personal Savior.
But even that is better than the Muslim belief that if several illiterate Muslims are gathered, munching dates with the right hand while still wiping their asses with the left from expelled date remains...and decide they want to go out and kill, rape, steal, and enslave, it will be Holy. As in Jihad...and if any goat-fucker falls while trying to kill, rape, enslave, steal others stuff - they go straight to Paradise.
Fr. Martin,
We appreciate your efforts to be kind; but reread Hebrews 9:27.
There is no second chance after death. ;-)
And there is another spot to read: Galatians 1:8...
May God richly bless you all.
It's possible that God has a different understanding of justice according to his perspective, which is certainly broader than ours.
I assume He knows what will lead to the best outcome for everyone and has all of His children's best interests at heart. What happens to TT's soul is between him and God's laws. If I thought otherwise God would not be God, but a respecter of persons and not someone I could trust.
No wonder people don't believe in God if they think He is what they say He is.
I'm not surprised a Nazi wouldn't understand Christian doctrine when explained, but here's the thing:
Hell is eternal punishment. Purgatory is not eternal punishment, it is preparation for heaven, and as the name makes clear, it's "purgative."
Setnaffa:
When did I claim anyone got a second chance after death?
I'm simply taking into consideration the dialogue between a creature and his Creator, at the moment of death. Hence my citation of the dialogue between the thief on the cross, and the Lord.
Wow. So God will let literally anything slide, except a healthy skepticism at evidence that doesn't seem to lead to His existence? Sorry, but that's just horseshit.
Yes, it has been understood since the beginning of the Church that no sin is unforgiveable, that there is no sin that is so great that God will not forgive it, except one -- the sin of not accepting His forgiveness.
Yes, you can commit a billion murders, but if you are truly repentent, then even that can be forgiven. However, if you live an otherwise decent life, but want nothing to do with God, and do not seek and want His forgiveness, then He will not impose His forgiveness upon you, He will not force you to spend eternity with Him.
As a matter of reason and logic, the only unforgiveable sin is the sin of rejecting God's forgiveness -- it is unforgiveable because forgiveness, to be complete, must be accepted, not merely offered. Even now the door to heaven is wide open to all who will enter it, but there are those who do not want to come in. And God will not force them to.
But allowing mass murderers into heaven is not "letting it slide." That forgiveness carries a heavy price. But it is a price that God has taken upon Himself on the Cross.
It's possible that God has a different understanding of justice according to his perspective, which is certainly broader than ours.
God has a true understanding of justice. Often times that might also be different from the human perspective, but it is not necessarily so. Justice is justice. There is not a divine justice and human justice. There is only one true justice.
It is because of justice that we have the Cross.
It is also because of mercy that Jesus is on that Cross rather than me or you.
Has it occurred to you that if you meet God, you don't get to dictate terms to him?
So no free will?
If there is a God I'm pretty sure he/she knows me well by now. I've approached it honestly, and if I must burn for coming to a different conclusion based on evidence I observed all around me, then that God was never worth worshiping to begin with. And really, worshiping a God is pretty ridiculous thing when you think about it. God is needy?
It is always a rather curious thing when an atheist objects that it is unfair that, because of his unbelief or disbelief, he should spend eternity separated from God, i.e. in "hell," rather than spend eternity with that God whom he wanted nothing to do with.
You have free will.
You can freely choose to be with God. Or you can freely choose to not be with God.
Which is it?
What is your choice?
Do you want to be with Him or not?
Whatever you want, He will grant you.
Bender, fair point. But as I said my preference after death is lights out, nothingness. But at the very least a nice God could do in that case is not roast me for skepticism he "gave" me. None of it makes any sense whatsoever. And if it's not supposed to make sense to me, then I could fall for anything that doesn't make any sense.
Fall for anything, i.e. Mormonism.
In order to enhance the freedom of that choice, to make sure that it is a knowing, intelligent, and voluntary choice, let's be clear about exactly who and what this God is --
He is Love. He is Truth. He is Life itself. Love, Truth, and Life in person.
Do you or do you not want to be with Love, Truth, and Life?
I said:
"Has it occurred to you that if you meet God, you don't get to dictate terms to him?"
Garage said:
So no free will?
Oh for heaven's sake.
Free will does not include dictating to God that restructure reality to suit you. What an ego.
I'll say it again. If and when you meet God, he offers you a choice being happy with him or being unhappy. If God exists, the option of going somewhere where he is not is on its face absurd. So God is utter reality. Either you make your peace with that, or you don't.
That's your choice.
God doesn't roast you. God doesn't toss you in a pit of fire.
The depictions of hell as fire (or as being in a cold dark night) describe what we might experience separation from God being like. And we make that choice for ourselves. God doesn't send us to hell, we send ourselves.
As for going into nothingness for eternity --
Well, that would be a lie.
Eternity -- which transcends time -- embraces past, present, and future all as a singularity. That is, eternity necessarily includes our present existence. If you exist now, then you will always exist in eternity. In order for you to not exist in eternity would require that you not exist now, which would be a lie because you do exist. And being Truth, God cannot lie. You will always exist.
Now, the question of our existence being in a conscious state, a self-awareness state, is another question.
Fr: perhaps you should have made it clear that the "meeting God" you talk about occurs in this life after which (death) there is no further opportunity for everlasting life.
The Garages of this world have chosen a nice sentiment (negotiation or nothingness), but it doesn't work that way, does it?
M Stone:
Well, my point is, that God sets the terms, not any of us.
The exact nature of our "meeting" God is rather a mystery, bound up with both our life on earth and our transition to eternity, and I'm trying to avoid putting God into human categories.
The transition from time to eternity, for example, is something we know really nothing about.
Correction, in deference to Bender's point: yes: we always exist in spirit. Everlasting life is just that: life with God. The other existence is...the subject of another discussion.
I mentioned that I recently went to a funeral. This man's wife of 40 years had died.
The pain of loss that he feels now is undescribable. It is suffering and torment to now be separated from the woman he loves.
Now imagine being separated from the Fullness of Love, i.e. God. The pain and suffering and torment that one might feel from that loss could very well be likened to fire and darkness and gnashing of teeth.
This man is now tasting a hint of what hell would be like -- a thoroughly unpleasant place that we should all avoid. God did not put him in that state; rather, it is a natural consequence of his loss.
Perhaps he should first burn in a crematorium. What happens in the post-mortem is anyone's faith.
Garage:
You sound so much like several characters in C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce, it's spooky.
Bender:
Another way to look at it is that hell isn't so much "absence" from God, or even his love--because how is that possible? But rather a perpetual, futile rebellion against it. Hence the torment.
This is how I take a quote by Saint Catherine of Alexandria: "the fire of hell is the light of God rejected."
Leaving aside various religious gobbledegook, there are powerful secular reasons not to want Tsaernaev buried in American soil.
Like many countries, we prefer not to have enemy remains consigned to our land.
It sends a good message to any Jihadis or wannabes , even those with US citizenship.
YOU ARE GARBAGE. YOUR REMAINS ARE GARBAGE TO US WE DON'T WANT POLLUTING OUR SOIL. WE DON'T CARE IF YOU ARE "OFFENDED!!" BY THAT. MUSLIM NATIONS _ IF YOU WANT TO PICK UP THE GARBAGE AND DISPOSE OF IT IN YOUR OWN LANDS, FEEL FREE. OTHERWISE - WE WILL DUMP TERRORIST CORPSES IN THE SEA, OR THE PEOPLE OF AMERICA WILL USE THEIR PLOT AS PUBLIC URINAL.
So many non-believers miss the point and value of religion. I'm agnostic too, but I would never want a world where everyone was. The value of religion comes in what it does for us as individuals and a group. In the final tally, it makes us better individuals and a better species. I truly wish I was a believer. I don't consider my skepticism to be a strength, but rather a gift never opened.
God isn't "nice". He is Holy and a consuming fire. Also, for those of us tempted to pat ourselves on the backs that we're not like that awful Tsarnaev guy, we might do well to remember the maxim, Mthere but for the grace of God go I" and Jesus' parable:
The Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee,standing by himself, prayed [a] thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted." - Luke 18
Of course, from God's perspective, we can never be apart from Him. When Adam went and hid in the bushes and God called out to him, God knew exactly where he was. If we exist, then God must necessarily be within us to some extent. Even Satan himself has God within him to this extent, Augustine points out.
But from our perspective, from the perspective of the "damned," it can appear that we are totally separated from Him.
A person has to be buried. Period.
Not true. Some people choose cremation, and there seems to be no obvious impediment to Tsarnaev joining Usama bin Laden in a burial at sea. Drop him somewhere where the blind white crabs can slowly pick his body to pieces.
But for my money I'd like to Tsarnaev ground up and fed to hogs. Something like that might just send a message ...
Do you or do you not want to be with Love, Truth, and Life?
That's the problem. Which Love, Truth, and Life? Which religion to choose? Which religion is supported by what we know of the historical record of Earth? Which God has set the best example for us? One that hasn't murdered people themselves?
Isn't that the point of consecrated ground? To have a graveyard that consists only of those that are destined for Heaven?
Meanwhile, cemeteries in New Jersey and CT have joined in rebuffing the funeral director's queries to bury the Muslim terrorist there.
I think that is quite healthy, a good reflection on the American people not wanting their soil polluted with his remains...and various cemeteries understanding that widespread sentiment.
Even those that believe in other tenets of milksop, "love thine enemy" forgive everything, modern Christianity.
Muzzies of course, are opposed to cremation and disposal at sea unless disposal at sea is unavoidable.
It OfFENDS Muslims not to have each Muslim body buried on land with all their special rituals.
Fine.
If they bitch, ask them to take the body and bury it in Egypt, or Iran, or Pakistan..or even Dagestan if the Russians will take the garbage back/
Herr Cedarford:
It was Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who said "love your enemy." That's not a "modern" concept at all.
Maybe less reading Mein Kampf and more reading the Bible?
I am not a conspiracy nut.
But I do think ndspinelli is really Frank Cannon.
That's a fact.
My previous comment notwithstanding, I think he should be buried without ceremony, out of the public eye. I woul't want my relatives buried next to him, not out of any superstitious reason, but for practical reasons.
Aethelfled:
You have helped a question form in my mind that I'd like to pursue, regarding the history of how, in Christendom, the bodies of criminals, particularly infamous criminals, were disposed of after death.
Not that such must be our guide, but I'm interested to know.
Fr. Fox, please clarify, if a person dies without confessing/ repenting of his sins, he gets a second chance after death? He meets God and God then gives him that second chance to repent? He doesn't go straight to hell?
Do you or do you not want to be with Love, Truth, and Life?
That's the problem. Which Love, Truth, and Life? Which religion to choose?
Don't overcomplicate things. One step at a time. Before getting into those other things --
Is love something that might interest you?
Is truth something that might be of interest to you?
Might you be interested in life?
Are these things that you are open to you?
These are not trick questions. They are all straightforward.
But you will confuse things by jumping to step 23 when there are more fundamental and primary matters to address first.
Paeonia:
I know of no "second chance" after death.
But I also don't know what interactions God and a creature may have in the throes of death.
I'm really puzzled as to why anyone thinks I'm talking about a "second chance after death." What in anything I've said mentions this?
Before getting to the matter of the burial of criminals (which historically was often outside the city gates, away from others), there is the matter of the burial of Muslims. Would it be historically appropriate to bury a non-Jew in a Jewish cemetery? Would it be historically (or canonically) proper to bury a non-Christian in the consecrated grounds of a Catholic cemetery? In both cases -- no. They would be buried in a dignified manner, but in a place separate and apart from the others.
"Garage:
Well, when you die, and you meet God, I hope he offers to forgive you, and invites you into heaven.
If you don't wish to accept the invitation, that's too bad, but it's up to you."
5/4/13, 12:06 PM
Fr. Fox, this is your statement that confused me.
Is there anything analogous with Christians to the burying a Muslim in pork atrocity? If you wanted to do something equally offensive to a Christian, is that even possible?
ship him back to his mama.
ship him back to his mama.
No threat of a shrine being erected back in the old country, I guess.
Plus think of carbon footprint of airlifting the body on ice.
I'm not worried about his soul. That's above my pay-grade. From a practical stand point, he should be buried at sea. If Hitler had a grave, it would be a shrine to some people. We don't need that. Burial at sea is respectful to his humanity, even if he does not deserve it.
Plenty of American heroes have been buried at sea.
All sarcasm aside. Whatever happens to his body should be done secretly so that there is no possibility of either a shrine or a desecration.
And it should be done cheaply. No need to spend any more money on this guy.
People are spending too much energy protesting where he is buried.
As someone who owns her own plot already, I have little control of who has purchased plots around me. I have no idea of the lives of those already buried.
I wouldn't care if he was buried next near me. I be worried of the jerks who would harassed the cemetery and my own plot.
Paeonia:
I was trying to describe, in a few simple words, the encounter between God and a non-believer, which is lifelong and comes to its consummation when we transit from this life to eternity.
How would you describe it?
Paeonia:
Let me put it this way:
We have a choice as long as we have a choice. When we no longer have a choice, then comes judgment.
Most of that whole thing is a mystery, so I try to avoid sorting it out in boxes that fit our thinking, but not necessarily God's.
The problem, Fr Fox---and you know this---is that we always have a choice to believe or not, call upon the Name of the Lord, confess...whatever phrase you choose until our last breadth.
But we never know when that will be.
Rejection is a choice.
The accepting thief on the cross would have been transformed earlier had he called on Jesus.
Fr Martin Fox said...
Herr Cedarford:
It was Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who said "love your enemy." That's not a "modern" concept at all.
Maybe less reading Mein Kampf and more reading the Bible
=================
Don't you have some young boys to fondle? It's a nice day, all sorts of young teen boys are out there!
As for your theology, Christ had his pacifistic sayings, but he also was telling followers to arm with swords, scourging temple money changers with a whip. He was not going around and stumbling into heresy repudiating the Old Testament creed of the goodness of smiting ones enemies, not forgiving them and rolling belly up.
He never repudiated the belief that eternal damnation lies in store for the wicked, save those who repent at the last second.. And that people can have a change of heart after a long time in Hell, find their love of God and Jesus and ascend into Heaven.
The traditional way the Israelites forgave their enemies was by piling their bodies in a trench, saying something like "Gee, too bad for you!", and walking away and forgetting about them - unless they wanted to have stories put down of how heroes with God helping with miracles...managed to kill them and enslave their women.
M Stone:
No doubt.
And there is another aspect. The person who waits to the last minute also assumes that, when the "last minute" comes, even if he sees it coming, he may not want God.
In other words, the reason it's important to live according to God's Law is to help us be the sort of person who wants to go to heaven.
The bodies of criminals were often buried at crossroads in sight of the gallows I believe. At least in England.
I wish it weren't so hard nowadays to find a decent place to be buried. I want a place with no plastic flowers and some graves that already have some moss on them. I miss church graveyards and detest the modern perpetual care outfit.
William,
"He should be cremated....Treat the remains with indifference, not contempt."
You're aware that these are contradictory statements, right? Any Islamist will view cremation as "treating with contempt".
Fr. Martin,
You're on a roll today; keep it up! (Your 12:16pm and 12:17pm comments in particular make a very nice pair.)
Signed,
One of your many Protestant fans.
I must give Herr Cedarford credit for chutzpah:
A Nazi lecturing a Catholic priest about morality and what Jesus Christ taught.
It must gall him he can't make a phone call, like the old days, and have me shipped off to Auschwitz.
Ah for the good old days!
By the way, for those who don't realize it: I'm not simply calling names. He really is a Nazi:
- Hates Jews and goes on and on about Jewish conspiracies;
- Hates "milksop" Christians and especially Catholics, for one because they're so weak;
- Goes on and on about race;
- Despises the Constitution, especially the parts about due process and rights and all that--because it gets in the way of all the good killing and warfare he wants to engage in...
- in defense of the superior race, against all those dirty dark people and especially Jews.
- Thinks abortion and euthanasia and other ways of "culling the herd" are just fine.
Now, if he's not a Nazi, it sure is curious how much like a Nazi he talks...around here...
Cedarford,
As someone who lives within the Archdiocese of Boston and had my own parish affected by the sexual abuse scandal, I would like to tell you that I've met and heard the stories of the actual victims of priest pedophilia and cover up in their own voices.
Their pain is real, the crime is real. To use their (the victims) suffering as a cheap shot against Father Fox for your own personal benefit is something you should rethink.
Please do not ever do it again.
Dear Renee -
The good Frair seems to want to initiate smears on me or any who disagree with him as "Nazis", so I am free to smear back.
That you know victims of gay clergy pederasts - thats your thing. It's totally irrelevant to me how you feel about it. You have your opinion about it. Perhaps others have opinions about Oscar Wilde and his rent boys and don't want either side mocked..Whatever...
If all Christians were "turn the other cheek" milksops, infatuated with loving and forgiving their enemy, there wouldn't be much of any Christians left.
We'd all be Muslims.
Or a dwindling, persecuted minority of Dhimmi Copts or Chaldeans under their thumb.
Padre, As you can probably deduce, Cedarford is an embarrasment to those here. Wear his scorn as a badge of honor. Many here have done the same. He doesn't even love his own children.
C-fudd, ol' buddy, I saw your post last week on the "DNA" thread. It looks like you are being very diligent in maintaining your record as the chief apologist and whitewasher for rapists and molesters as you did in the past for Polanski and Sandusky. Good work.
Just a little bit of friendly advice - next time, don't capitalize the word "Victim". With lower case you might be able to con some dummies with lies about "only concerned about police resources and priorities bla bla bla". The way you did it, it was pretty obvious you thought she had it coming like Jews at Auschwitz.
TTFN,
GR
" He [C-fudd] doesn't even love his own children."
He doesn't even *have* his own children. That profile of his is 100% bullshit, especially when he talks about his alleged "daughters". A couple of years ago in a thread on another blog (he's been booted from all of them except here) he claimed he had a *son* to make one of his unhinged debating points. Five will get you 10 this guy has never had sex with a woman he didn't have to pay for.
As for his claim to be an "energy consultant", it's not surprising that pushing 60 he's still pumping gas.
(to C-fudd)
"something you should rethink"
There is a mistaken assumption in there.
I doubt if a person's attitude about God changes much when he/she dies. The attitude here is the one that counts. I agree that there must be a time when the person is educated about their choices and then the judgement comes. Sometimes I'm convinced we judge ourselves, and it makes more sense to me the older I get. We wouldn't want to spend eternity pretending to be something we aren't.
Local reports suggest that if no cemetery will take him, that the government should handle it for his sisters.
From Boston WCVB
"If no grave site is found after the second autopsy, Peter Stefan, the owner of the funeral home, plans to ask the government to find a grave.
Althouse identifies a "soul" distinct - or at least semantically distinct - from a body! Basis, evidence to stand in a court of law?
Thanks to Father Fox for upholding [Christian] orthodoxy. A worthy and eminent demonstration of Christian Apologetics in an "Areopagus."
Thanks also to Father Fox for writing under his name.
Althouse identifies a "soul" distinct - or at least semantically distinct - from a body! Basis, evidence to stand in a court of law?
What exactly are you saying, David?
If no grave site is found after the second autopsy, Peter Stefan, the owner of the funeral home, plans to ask the government to find a grave.
I wonder what the laws are on this. Apparently cemeteries are not obliged to serve all people. Still it doesn't seem like it should be a big problem.
Are there no Muslim cemeteries that will accept Tsarnaev? Is there no "potter's field" in Boston for the unknown dead or indigents?
If not, burial at sea ought to suffice. But it wouldn't surprise me if the Tsarnaev family gins up some lawfare to harrass cemeteries for not accepting this terrorist son.
I also sincerely hope that speedbump makes it to heaven...but after a billion years in purgatory.
Those directly destined for Heaven may wait that long, or longer, too (though apparently they won't be sensible to the time passage, however long it lasts).
According to Paul, writing in 1 Thessalonians (4: 13-17), “those who died as Christians” “sleep in death” until the sounding of the horn of judgment — “when the command is given, when the archangel's voice is heard, when God's trumpet sounds.” Then, after “the Lord himself … descend[s] from heaven, first the Christian dead will rise, then we are who are still alive shall join them.”
Thus, if that day were to occur today, it would be something like Philip José Farmer's Riverworld series of books, with ancient Romans and Greeks, Scythian horse archers and Celtic headhunters (yes, they hunted heads) along with medieval Frankish warriors, Armenian “princes,” Byzantine cataphract officers, Franciscan monks, not to speak of World War II tank crews, peaceful modern folk, and all the other Christians through history, all — on a trumpet tone — suddenly waking up and mingling together in a gigantic party (while singing hosannas, no doubt).
But what if that day doesn't happen today, or tomorrow? I think it's safe to say that we're already a couple of orders of magnitude beyond the expectations of the early apostles (~20 years?) concerning how soon the Day of Judgment would occur. What if rather than two, it's actually eight orders of magnitude longer — i.e., a couple billions of years? Or, say, 11 orders of magnitude (trillions of years). Imagine the party then!
What, you say you don't believe it will take that long? Well, the original apostle followers of Christ, inspired by God in composing the wording of the New Testament, didn't believe it would be this long. Who's to say it can't or won't take many times longer than what's already passed?
In this regard, one might contemplate Paul's words (1 Thes. 5: 1-2), “About dates and times, my friends, there is no need to write to you, for you yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night.”
Cedarford:
I am accusing you of being a Nazi. Or, Fascist if you prefer. It isno smear if it is true.
I specified my evidence -- citing things you yourself say you believe. Everyone here sees you say these things.
Now if you want to deny these things, go for it. I don't have time to mine the motherload of your racist, anti Semitic, fascist, anti Catholic, anti Christian, eugenic and other miscellaneous eruptions of bile, but others might.
I am pretty confident my accusation against you can be well supported.
Now if you really can't believe anyone could think you are essentially a Nazi, you might want to take more responsibility for what you say.
And you are certainly free to disown any of it.
Sometimes seeing yourself as you are can be a shock. Painful but healthy.
"What exactly are you saying, David?"
You don't have eyes, intellect, curiosity, background, substance?
Thanks again to Father Fox for "forming square" and returning volley.
My sister, her husband and I remarked on Face Time today that the RC Church has held firm, so far, on both dogmatic (Trinitarian/Logos Theology) and moral ("social issues") theology. They're Presbyterian and I'm UCC, Lutheran and, since 1976, Episcopalian. I am not sanguine about a Jesuit holding that line, but, neither do I know the past, present or future. I am grateful to RC clergy and theologians who hold the line.
ECUSA today is a storefront of the DNC and UCC has been that since the 70s at least.
m stone: If anything, Tsarnaev's body absent a spirit long gone has no power or meaning.
Agree. Even when the body is already dead most people still attach significance and meaning to it.
Cremate, bury, throw it out to the sea, let the vultures eat it out to oblivion in the desert -- I dont' care how the body which we once label Jahar Tsarnev be discarded.
Some people seek the light, but there are lots of photo phobics who look for the shaft that leads to a deeper, darker pit........Perhaps they could bury him on a traffic island on a busy interstate.. That way his grave won't be either vandalized or honored.
The main reason no cemetery wants him is likely practical: his grave is destined to be vandalized, repeatedly. Would you want that eyesore on your property? Would you want to wash away the detritus that will be left there by (rightfully) angry people? I'm quite certain enough people will want to piss on his grave, that at the very least, they'll be paying extra to combat the soil's ph level.
Michael:
Bishop NT Wright wrote a huge book on the resurrection, and in the course of that, he dealt with the idea of "soul sleep."
His answer, which--despite his being Anglican is also the Catholic answer--is that Paul was referring to the body being "asleep." Our souls do not "sleep," we are immediately present to the Judge of all, and we face our particular judgment at that moment. That will involve either a welcome into heaven (perhaps with some prep time in purgatory) or else damnation in hell.
Of course, paul said a lot of things about this, so quoting this or that isn't all that helpful, because they are all inspired, and so must cohere.
David --
Thanks for the kind words. There is one very obvious reason why the Catholic Church holds fast, while others do not...
You ponder a lot of funny stuff.
I realize I'm just rabble, but I'd rather watch the Three Stooges.
What do virgins in hell look like?
Meg Lanker-Simons?
Oh, and Father Fox, disregard Cedarford. We all do.
Keep up the great work. It's hard to stay orthodox, especially in the postmodern world. But the gates of hell will not prevail against it!
Gerry:
I usually ignore him,but yesterday, for whatever reason,I decided to hold up the mirror for him to look into.
I'm concerned for his soul.
padre, In the courtroom you might be accused of "assuming a fact not in evidence," vis a vis Cedarford's soul. I know, I was raised and educated Catholic[hs and college], we all have souls.
"I'm concerned for his soul."
Another mistaken assumption. More seriously, Fr. Fox, I appreciate your posts.
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