Pity the well-off white girl who has not had to struggle with identity politics or face prejudice because of who she is (wait until she realizes the “real world” still has a glass ceiling). Blaming groups that lack the inherent privilege of caucasian heterosexuals for your own bad luck in a crapshoot is a gross distortion of affirmative action, which is imperfect but remains necessary, in some form, as long as historical inequities persist. And considering the Supreme Court was hearing gay marriage cases last week, persist they do.Goldenberg purports to care about Suzy Lee Weiss's potentially regrettable "youthful contribution to her Google search results, one that eternally allows future employers and boyfriends to find her arguing against affirmative action and disdaining diversity." Goldenberg says the WSJ was "irresponsible" to allow this naive child to display herself on the internet as "bitter" and "egocentric."
Goldenberg is, ironically, also displaying herself on the internet, and I'd say she's displaying herself as overaggressive and unfair. I just read Weiss's op-ed and it's lighthearted and self-effacing — the opposite of egocentric. She's saying I'm an ordinary kid with nothing special to put on my application, and then she mocks herself for being "[a]n underachieving selfish teenager," chattering out a bunch of phony excuses, and she signs off saying that she needs to go watch TV.
I wouldn't be surprised if Weiss shares Goldenberg's attitude about diversity policies. It seems to me that Goldenberg flipped out at one line — "If it were up to me, I would've been any of the diversities" — and completely lost her capacity to perceive humor.
Talk about embarrassing yourself on the internet!
पोस्ट्स
१२८ टिप्पण्या:
a gross distortion of affirmative action, which is imperfect but remains necessary
Another liberal argues in favor of bias and bigotry. Why aren't liberals calling for affirmative action to get males proportionally represented in college and the professions? Because they're bigots who base their opinions on hatred, not freedom, equality or fairness.
i read the op ed when it first came out and enjoyed it for the "fun" approach it took to some serious issues. She appeared to be poking fun at herself, and those issues, at the same time.
And, of course, it's true that you have a much better chance of getting into many schools if you can check off, say, high cheekbones.
Agree Anne. Suzy came across as sharp and self-effacing. Being an academic high-achiever isn't everything.
Goldenberg is a tool.
Let me guess. Goldenberg is a left-wing ideologue, right? They favor exploiting differentials and gradients to advance their political, economic, and social standing.
Goldenberg's concept of "diversity" is inherently corrupt. Her self-serving prejudice is unashamedly exhibited when she denies individual dignity. Perhaps she doesn't comprehend the natural progression of her ambitious agenda.
Affirmative action was grossly mishandled. It should never have been used to arbitrarily elevate one individual over another. It certainly should not have persisted beyond a single succeeding generation, perhaps two.
The goal of affirmative action should have been rehabilitation and integration. Not sustaining division and manufacturing prejudice for political, economic, and social profit.
I'm sure Ms Goldenberg's next article will be how, based on standardized test scores, Jewish kids are over-represented at the Ivy League schools by 25%, and that those slots really ought to be going to Asian kids.
Privilege comes in many different forms.
The "glass ceiling" is another myth of the left.
Gays can't get into college or get jobs? Because they can't get married? Is that what passes for logic at the Columbia Journalism Review?
Those evil Inequities.
I'm afraid Suzy outed herself as not being obsessed with getting into an "elite" institution of higher learning. This is too bad, because many employers are looking for people with "passion", and for some, OCD looks like just the passion they want. It can also help in getting across a "sense of urgency", which means pretending that what you are doing is urgent, even when it isn't.
Then again, she may wind up going to one of the hundreds of places where you can get a really good education if that is what you want, maybe even in the trendy "STEM" subjects (or not).
At least the Op-Ed was funny.
... your own bad luck in a crapshoot is a gross distortion of affirmative action, which is imperfect but remains necessary, in some form, as long as historical inequities persist.
The key takeaway here is the term historical inequities. Basically when whites become the minority those inequities will no longer exist, hence, no need for AA.
The Op-Ed was better written and more entertaining than anything in the Goldenberg archives.
Maybe Suzy Lee Weis is the next Erma Bombeck, and doesn't know it yet.
"...one that eternally allows future employers and boyfriends to find her arguing against affirmative action and disdaining diversity."
If I were potential boyfriend material for Ms. Weiss, I'd be attracted by her rejection of leftist group-think.
Sounded kind of whiny, to me, but bets are that this will turn out to be new admissions essay. She'll be fine.
Blaming groups that lack the inherent privilege of caucasian heterosexuals for your own bad luck in a crapshoot is a gross distortion of affirmative action, which is imperfect but remains necessary, in some form, as long as historical inequities persist.
LOL! Like R. Crumb said: "You can't make this shit up." It's too real.
.. your own bad luck in a crapshoot is a gross distortion of affirmative action, which is imperfect but remains necessary, in some form, as long as historical inequities persist.
Crapshoot, my ass! College admissions is anything but a crapshoot! Luck has nothing to do with it!
I'm just glad my four white sons are not girls. Then they'd have no chance at all in college admissions...though they'd make it up in job applications.
Maybe the answer is to plot out a lifetime arc of disadvantage. Born poor and black; get into fancy schools. Graduate poor and white and female; get into fancy companies. Grow old and male and white with a long history of earnings; get lots of social security.
Whatever you do, don't be a white...female...Jewish...Asian.
Oh, and Ms Weiss shows herself truly out of it, when, in all of her examples of what she should have done, she leaves out forming her own local Venceremos Brigade to fly down to Cuba & help with the sugar harvest.
(Seriously, I thought her article was funny & pointed out the insanity of the Ivy League acceptance tap-dance.)
Suzy Lee Weiss is poking fun at the admissions process at Ivy League schools where to be admitted you almost have to be SuperPerson perfect in every way.
My oldest son lamented several times when he was applying to college that his life was too bland and crisis free for admission to the top Ivies despite excellent credentials.
Unlike Suzy, my son was admitted to his first choice college but Suzy's newspaper article rings true.
What high school seniors do not realize is that the slate is wiped clean day one of college. Only the top 10% of a Harvard class are competitive when they apply to top graduate schools. Someone who excels at a non-Ivy school is in a much better position than the Harvard student in the middle of his class.
Colonel Angus,
The historical inequities will always be there. Unfortunatetly, taking precedence over the present inequities.
Being heterosexual is an inherent privilege. Thank you God.
I try to read that article and I can't get very far, because it's just so old, worn out, and wrong. I'm a little surprised that educated people still cling to these old long destroyed ideas. People of the left are in for such a painful realization about life when they ever leave the safe confines of their protected little environs, of unions, education, and media. I'd feel sorry for them if they weren't such fascist assholes about what they think they know.
Goldenberg feels this young girl has no right to say things for which the left will not respect her, and nobody should allow her too either. As always, the fascism is purportedly for your own good. The student should even thank her for the muzzle. It will keep you safe and loved, sister.
those inequities will no longer exist, hence, no need for AA.
There will always be some form of inequity. That's reality. There's no need for AA now, never was. If everyone hand an EQUAL opportunity, we'd be a lot better off than we are because people would strive to accomplish rather than look for entitlements and hand outs.
Goldberg is right.
The government should determine all outcomes. Black people, who are watching their unemployment rates skyrocket, fail out of colleges at much higher rates than "normal" people, and watching their net worth get decimated by government policies are totally benefiting from working on the government plantation.
Government fairness is the only solution.
I'm afraid Suzy outed herself as not being obsessed with getting into an "elite" institution of higher learning. This is too bad, because many employers are looking for people with "passion"
Suzy has outed herself as someone with enough drive and writing ability to get an op-ed published in the WSJ. That's better than most kids.
McCarthyism is only justified when practiced by the left!
I'm just glad my four white sons are not girls. Then they'd have no chance at all in college admissions...though they'd make it up in job applications.
Actually, white American women have been the biggest beneficiaries of so-called minority preferences.
It worries me, the way leftists in particular say things that are controversial or subjective at best, and utterly false at worst, as though they were established fact. Do these people know the difference between fact and opinion?
bagoh20, I got as far as "So" and stopped there. Beginning a declarative sentence with "so" is a verbal tic that has somehow crept into journalism. It sounds awful, and someone writing for CJR should reach higher.
@martha,
Suzy Lee Weiss is poking fun at the admissions process at Ivy League schools where to be admitted you almost have to be SuperPerson perfect in every way.
No, this is what Ivy League schools want you think, especially if you're some white kid who doesn't get accepted --- you just weren't good enough.
The truth is that what gets you in to an Ivy League school is 1) coming from money, where yo can pay your way 2) being a "legacy", or 3) having a personal history that the school finds "interesting" (e.g. Chesa Budin)
There was a guy at college with me who got accepted into Harvard for his sophomore year. Why, well, he had been a river boat man for a few years before coming to college, and he was a character -- a big, bearded mountain of a man. Super Intelligent? Not even close. He ended up not going because he impregnated a townie waitress & did the right thing & married her.
garage mahal, perhaps you're right. But these days, colleges want MEN! because it's about 57/43 women/men right now.
"Actually, white American women have been the biggest beneficiaries of so-called minority preferences."
Are you implying that white women couldn't make it on their own?
Hege
Lotta truth there, but, if I had been black, with my grades and LSAT's, I could have gone to any law school in the country, prolly for free too.
Instead ... white ... male ... straight ... LOSER.
Colonel Angus said...
Basically when whites become the minority those inequities will no longer exist, hence, no need for AA.
Good one. I needed a laugh.
I liked the way she uses humor to make a very difficult point... one that even with humor, still escapes many people.
Diversity is overrated today.
From the quoted section:
Blaming groups that lack the inherent privilege of caucasian heterosexuals for your own bad luck in a crapshoot is a gross distortion of affirmative action.
Except that complaints about Affirmative Action aren't blaming the minority groups.
Several things can be blamed:
1. an authority structure that has decided to discriminate in favor of certain minority groups.
2. Non-minority parents for not being minority.
3. The person herself for not being minority.
Does Ms. Goldenberg feel ashamed for not thinking the argument through?
She should.
YoungHegelian said "The truth is that what gets you in to an Ivy League school is 1) coming from money, where yo can pay your way 2) being a "legacy", or 3) having a personal history that the school finds "interesting" (e.g. Chesa Budin)"
YoungHegelian, care to test that conjecture? Here, we'll line up a random group of Ivy League students on one side, and a random group of students from every other school on another side. We'll give them a series of mental challenges to be judged blindly by an independent group. You pick first; I'll pick second. Five members each.
a gross distortion of affirmative action, which is imperfect but remains necessary, in some form, as long as historical inequities persist.
Uh, about 39% of first-time, full-time students black students who seek a bachelor's degree at a 4-year institution complete a bachelor's degree at that institution.
She left that part out.
Of course, she's an idiot, and she's worrying about someone else's reputation. Which would be funny if it were not so tragic.
AA is one of the most evil conceptions ever created in America.
n.n said...
Let me guess. Goldenberg is a left-wing ideologue, right?
This is true, but it's also likely she's correct. Leftists already control government, NGOs, and academia and have enacted defacto ideological weeding policies. They aren't 100% effective but are getting stronger.
Many people think private industry is the opposite but that isn't true. Large companies in particular have similar leanings although less well developed. In 30 years it's quite easy to believe such a remark will be considered a black mark anywhere.
And considering the Supreme Court was hearing gay marriage cases last week, persist they do.
Yes!
Because being gay is just like being black, don'tcha know!!!
I thought it was a poorly written April Fools joke until I saw the interview with her.
I cannot improve on what Bagoh said @3:24.
@Bob,
There are no shortage of bright people in the world, Bob. Ivy League schools have their pick of them. They pick the ones that fall into the categories I listed.
I don't know about you, Bob, but DC is full of Ivy League graduates, and by and large, they are appalling. Look at the Obama administration. It's full of Ivy League graduates who can't find their butt-cheeks with both hands (e.g. "Turbo-Tax" Timmy Geithner).
Compare the kids who go to Taco Tech to Harvard & Harvard wins. Compare the kids with equivalent scores from Harvard & the high end liberal arts or STEM schools, and the non-Harvardites would win in aggregate.
The only Ivy League school I hold in esteem now is MIT.
I think that this intelligent- beyond-her-years person has a great future if she can survive the insane inmates running the asylum, OOPS, college she’ll go to. On the other hand if she has to get past an HR rep to get a corporate job, she may be considered too outré, too edgy. What a society.
I think that the CJR writer is an a$$hole with no sense of irony or wit. Perfect for her job, tho.
"In 30 years it's quite easy to believe such a remark will be considered a black mark anywhere. "
Oh no. Is there a global delete function here so I can delete all my Althouse comments.
You know someone is gonna invent such thing soon. A webcrawling spider that finds everything you ever wrote on line, and erases it, or replaces it with..., well something you might hear a professor say in a university - Something senseless and stupid and totally forward thinking.
She's a concern troll, pushing her worldview, which has become an industry. It should be fun to watch this shake out as Lefties are pretty ideologically hostile to the economic conditions which made the 'averageness' possible for so many to get an education.
Ivy kids are bright, but if you think there isn't an unholy mix of legacy, diversity, and meritocracy at work in higher Ed admissions, you probably have too much faith in the process.
Actually, white American women have been the biggest beneficiaries of so-called minority preferences.
What about fat pasty white divorced idiots who pretend that they have high incomes?
I've heard they have trouble getting into college . . .
She's 18 and she's just gone through the process of trying to get into the school of her choice and has found out a few truths about the system.
She's smart enough to figure it out and good enough to write an op ed that is publishable about it.
This is a girl who will be fine, yes. And the one's who will NOT be fine are the legacies, rich kids, and affirmative action hires.
She's made herself pretty interesting, so there's that.
Exploit the system.
Kira Goldenberg objects to little white girls speaking their minds, disrupting her comfortable racial pieties and cultural learnings. Even in jest! Naïve little white girls better shut up and appreciate their betters or else Kira Goldenberg's gonna get all scoldy with them. And then blame Republicans (those Wall Street Journalists) for abetting thought.
Thou shalt not think for yourself.
I bet that even at 18 she can out-write Goldenberg. Give her a writing job, and lets see.
Do these people know the difference between fact and opinion?
No. If they did, there would not be so many rants about 'lies' instead of arguments on differences of opinion.
bagho
Goldenberg feels this young girl has no right to say things for which the left will not respect her, and nobody should allow her to either. As always, the fascism is purportedly for your own good. The student should even thank her for the muzzle. It will keep you safe and loved, sister.
Wish I'd read that before I'd commented. That's what I would've said if I were smarter!
Am sending, to a college Prof I know, this persceptive Althouse post. Was gonna add my pedestrian comment above, but will instead now just add your comment (with attribution, of course).
I'll agree with Ms Goldenberg on one point; those "tolerant" Leftists have long memories and destroying people to intimidate the herd is what they love to do.
But God Bless Miss Weiss for have the courage to tell the truth.
Ann Althouse said...
affirmative action, which is imperfect but remains necessary, in some form, as long as historical inequities persist.
They do?
Seems like the only people not getting a leg up are white heterosexual males.
Witness our hoop-shooting hotshot of a POTUS.
Well, I was not aware that MIT was in an athletic league. My bad.
Yes, there are geniuses and idiots to be found everywhere, and you're right that the winnowing process is unpredictable after college. But your post above ("The truth is...") fits into a long pattern of bashing elite schools.
I met a white guy who was stupid once. So all white guys are stupid! See what I did there?
bagoh
Wish I'd spelled your name correctly!
The only Ivy League school I hold in esteem now is MIT.
Don't kid yourself. MIT would be full of Asian kids if they didn't "adjust" the process!
I think the WSJ column is amusing. It punctures many balloons, doesn't it?
It's too bad, though, that she can't go to Princeton and marry a Princeton guy.
Kira sounds like a leftwing fascist.
How embarrassing for her.
I bet the student could write Goldenberg's editorials for her and nobody could tell the difference. That's how old and worn out those ideas are. But, Goldenberg could not do the reverse without falling back on some ridiculous stereotypes about "white girls of privilege".
Goldberg wants Weiss to know her thinking is toxic. Goldberg has friends who cannot believe the WSJ has given Weiss space to voice such bigoted ideas.
" That's what I would've said if I were smarter!"
I was born with I.Q. of 102, but I got some college in me, and it's still over 90.
And the one's who will NOT be fine are the legacies, rich kids, and affirmative action hires.
What makes you think that? George W. Bush was a legacy and rich. Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian are doing just fine for themselves even though they have no discernible talent and are, at best, of average intelligence.
@Bob,
But your post above ("The truth is...") fits into a long pattern of bashing elite schools.
Bob, this is not a question of logical fallacy. This is a question of empirical fact.
The reason why "elite" schools get bashed is because they are now false brands, but yet they seem to infest the upper reaches of business & government as both go careening into the toilet.
How can you say something like "...there are idiots to be found everywhere"? Huhhh? How can idiots be found after a supposedly high-end winnowing process & at the end of many years of "elite" education? Shouldn't they have been weeded out?
Ivy League schools now crank out people like Ezra Klein & Chesa Budin by the score, Bob, students who really should be at their local state college branch. That, and their abysmal decline into PC nonsense is why they get bashed.
"Goldberg wants Weiss to know her thinking is toxic."
And her instincts are right about that. She can taste the toxin, that wiser people are immune to and even thrive on - freedom and fairness. I have to lick my finger after typing the words, cause it taste so good.
The truth is what is upsetting Goldenberg is that the essay is good... but she cant come out and say that, because its anathema against her sacred cow.
So, she goes after the publisher in a long-headed plea about how the girl has been harmed by her own voice.
Weren't the "voices of the children" supposed to move us in the right direction... or something.
Oh that's right... I forgot, Kennedy was talking about kids with two moms or two dads.
The attempts by the left to silence any and all criticism of diversity are reaching a fever pitch.
Just wait till the hate speech laws that criminalize even questioning affirmative action.
Remember that kid in New Jersey who was convicted for being mean to a fag? Coming to a state near you---only much, much more Stalin-esque.
Enjoy the decline, sheeple!
garage mahal, perhaps you're right. But these days, colleges want MEN! because it's about 57/43 women/men right now.
Sadly, I went to Carnegie-Mellon. Which, at the time, was 62% male.
Yes, finger, singular. I'm that fast.
Liberals are the most humorless people on this planet.
You know someone is gonna invent such thing soon. A webcrawling spider that finds everything you ever wrote on line, and erases it, or replaces it with
Give Tyne Daly a call.
The college I went to was 3 to 1 women to men, and I bet I got laid, but I can't remember.
YH, well, that's well argued. But maybe mostly because you and I are on the same side.
If you are a young person who lacks the proper "diversities", you have some choices:
1. get fully on board with the system, recognizing the only way to atone for your advantages is to feel guilty and just take it
2. get upset that hard work and achievement may not matter
3. have a little fun, you know the deal
There will always be some form of inequity. That's reality.
Note she referred to historical inequities, which we can safely assume are those suffered by non whites had the hands of the 'white ruling class'. Once whites are a minority, well, there you have it. Don't kid yourself thinking that anyone will give a damn if whites are under representated in academia or the workforce.
Kira Goldenberg has a very ugly soul. To pick apart her piece line by line is more effort than she deserves.
Colonel Angus said...
Once whites are a minority, well, there you have it. Don't kid yourself thinking that anyone will give a damn if whites are under representated in academia or the workforce.
I don't think anyone thinks this. They think race preferences for currently preferred groups will continue indefinitely even after whites are a minority.
Do I hear Sour Grapes???
Suzy is still in high school and has been published in The Wall Street Journal. (Put that in your pipe and smoke it! Or, just put it on your resume when you are ready to join these award winning writers with less prestigious education. I'm pretty sure the WSJ or IBD would be impressed.)
Meanwhile, Kira has top "credentials" and gets published in one of those school-sponsored publications that gets passed around among academia nuts.
Any job that would see that and drop you because you didn't approve of racial quotas?
Is a job you didn't want in the first place.
Hegelian: I'm sure Ms Goldenberg's next article will be how, based on standardized test scores, Jewish kids are over-represented at the Ivy League schools by 25%, and that those slots really ought to be going to Asian kids.
Privilege comes in many different forms.
But there is an empirical basis for that, at least about Asian kids NOT getting those slots even though SAT scores are showing that they should be getting those slots.. I read a discussion about it in the NY Times late last year.
Marshal:
That's because there are two objectives of selective politics. First, the marginalization or evisceration of the middle class, because they are the principal stakeholders of the American republic. Second, the marginalization or evisceration of select factions in the upper or elite class, who are competing with other factions for the pole position in American politics, economics, and throughout society.
Racial politics, and other forms of class politics, are simply a form of leverage, which are unsurprisingly wielded as potent weapons against adversaries or competing interests in times of peace.
Goldenberg is a tool.
If you Bing/Google Suzy Lee Weiss you will see a number of articles expressing similar indignation.
Weiss in German means White.
We have no affirmative action here but we have is what is called "equal opportunity" in employment , encouraging all people to apply and acknowledging diversity is vibrancy.
Re university entrance, I've never heard of any such scheme. Mature Age Student scheme, we have. For those mature age students, the VCE (equivalent to your SAT)is not the only factor to consider, employment background is also given consideration.
In principle, I don't agree with affirmative action. But I am in favour of putting extra resources to improve outcomes for children who are genuinely in need.
Marshal:
I am criticizing Goldenberg on principle, not supporting Weiss on fact. I am not so naive to believe that there isn't discrimination. It is still my interest, while it remains possible, to expose and marginalize the worst actors and actions. Perhaps we may yet avoid or delay the periodic dysfunctional convergence which has been a common fate of all societies.
Now I have to see if Suzy Lee Weiss is a real person.
I read the article, and so far as I can tell there is nothing in it to justify describing Weiss as "well-off".
Goldenberg appears to be another boring leftie who assumes all white people have easy lives of wealth and luxury.
@Bob,
YH, well, that's well argued. But maybe mostly because you and I are on the same side.
That's okay, Bob. Just start me up. That's what my blood pressure medication is for.
Affirmative action, diversity, discrimination, blah, blah, blah.
I'm one who thinks that if discrimination wasn't outlawed, and people were allowed to discriminate, for whatever reasons, without the penalty of laws, we'd be better off.
No longer would minorities have anything but doing better than anyone else, to relieve them of this underclass position that they've been put in.
Let's face it, affirmative action is an affirmation that blacks just can't do shit without whites helping then out.
Even if that means changing their test scores to make it look like they can read and write.
George W. Bush was a legacy and rich.
Barack Obama, too (although not as rich as Bush). Reagan and Clinton both came from poverty, though.
Shana: Suzy has outed herself as someone with enough drive and writing ability to get an op-ed published in the WSJ. That's better than most kids.
And that could be a start of a career in journalism. Many writers and authors didn't go to writing/journalism schools.
In some fields of work apprenticeship can be an effective way of getting into employment. But we can't deny that in other areas you need formal higher education and years of supervised practice before you can be reasonably qualified to do the job.
People!
Don't you know that Ms Althouse has associate who say this Weiss girl shouldn't be given the oxygen to repeat her bigoted views?
Serious you guys!
A question I like to as people who complain about how tough it is to be non-white in America: why does nobody every misrepresent themselves as *white* anymore?
People used to make unbelievable claims to a pure-white ancestry in order to avoid being called anything but "white". Now they make unbelievable claims to non-white ancestry in order to avoid being called "white". What does that tell you?
Bob Ellison: YoungHegelian, care to test that conjecture? Here, we'll line up a random group of Ivy League students on one side, and a random group of students from every other school on another side. We'll give them a series of mental challenges to be judged blindly by an independent group. You pick first; I'll pick second. Five members each.
If Hegelian had no empirical basis for saying that then maybe he is just a sore loser.
Kira writes like crap.
Bob - I think that your Ivy League criteria are a bit outdated. Problem is that, at least before the housing crash and Obama Recession, a lot of the most highly qualified kids whose parents were more than wiling and capable of paying their full share were being turned down, and, even a lot of legacies. But, yes, money does matter, as does fame. Getting monetary preference takes a bit more than merely paying full boat price w/o borrowing and scholorships, and typically requires either a long history of giving to the school or enough wealth that they can reasonably expect a decent amount of money in the future.
Giving is tracked closely, and if you haven't been giving through the years, and giving a decent amount, in a lot of schools you won't get much, if any, preference even as a multi-generational legacy.
My kid graduated from a very good private school not that long ago, and we watched who got in where, and tried to figure out why, given their SATs, grades, extracurricular activities, etc., and we could almost always figure out why. This one's family had an eight or nine digit net worth, that one's family owned a sports team. A number who would have been otherwise ccmpetative were all-state atheletes. And, never ignore the issue of race - good grades and SATs with the right genes or ethnic background will get you in almost anywhere, and will get much more financial aid than otherwise warranted. I fully expect that the Obama girls could probably get in almost anywhere they wanted, even without bothering to take the SATs or ACTs - they have race and fame behind them.
The thing about paying full price is that a lot of these schools, led of course by Harvard, don't need nearly as much money as they charge to cover their costs, esp. if they have large endowments. If they charge $50k a year, it is likely that maybe $5k-$10k of that is probablly going to be used as financial aid for someone more deserving.
Finaly,despite the claims above that females are the recipients of affirmative action, it really isn't the case any more in admissions to most elite colleges, and hasn't been for a long time (I went to a small liberal arts college some 40+ years ago, and the girls were averaging almost a 4.0, and the boys maybe 3.5 or so). The basic problem is that if colleges exceed a certain ratio of women, both sexes lose interest in it. Boys probably because of the oppressive feminism, and girls because of the supply of boys. My memory is that this is somewhere around 55% or so female. Something that a lot of HS seniors do apparently look at.
Chrisnavin: Ivy kids are bright, but if you think there isn't an unholy mix of legacy, diversity, and meritocracy at work in higher Ed admissions, you probably have too much faith in the process.
What about overhauling the high school curriculum and then make allocation of slots in tertiary education as impersonal as possible -- let the computers do the first round selection and then the second round selection and the third. That way the selection is standardized and human bias is reduced.
Graduates of what college have the highest starting salaries:
(1) Princeton
(2) Stanford
(3) South Dakota School of Mines
(4) Harvard
(5) Caltech
(6) Columbia
(7) Yale
(8) MIT
Peter
DADvocate asked, 'Why aren't liberals calling for affirmative action to get males proportionally represented in college and the professions?"
Generic answer: "After centuries of oppressing everyone else, you deserve whatever happens to you!"
As for Suzy Lee Weiss's Op Ed, I think she gives a fine account of herself. She's disappointed and, although she's apparently disgusted with a system that just can't stop lying to her, she remains lighthearted and upbeat.
No doubt prospective employers and others will find the Op Ed if they search for it. But if that "harms her future self," it is the Kira Goldenbergs who need to be held responsible- not the WSJ.
In principle, I don't agree with affirmative action. But I am in favor of putting extra resources to improve outcomes for children who are genuinely in need.
In short you're not in favor of what you're in favor of. Got it.
3) South Dakota School of Mines
Harm herself? She just got an op-ed published in one of the most important newspapers in America.
Actually, white American women have been the biggest beneficiaries of so-called minority preferences.
Holy crap. Garage Mahal actually said something non-flippant and non-false!
Affirmative action mostly screws bright Asian kids. If you're the intelligent child of a multimillionaire and don't get into Harvard, you can always go Amherst or Oberlin and do just fine in life......I come from the low end of the social spectrum, but I'm white so I had to find my own way. No problem. I don't think affirmative action has hurt me in any appreciable way, but so much of it is patently unfair. Why should the child of a West Indian doctor be given preferential treatment over the child of a Chinese seamstress?.....How do you level the playing field and keep the mountaintop?
Nini:
Not a bad idea, to reward genuine merit. Merit, despite the cries of the meritocrats and the excessive egalitarians, is one leg of the stool.
I always get worried when I see too much faith in some abstract placement process, however, because of its limitations, and the inherent biases in the people behind whatever system is in place. There are interests there, too and good judgment is always involved.
I don't think people get that the same corruption, people controlling the budget, legacy interests and money are deeply involved as they are.
Being 'average' coming out of high school, maybe not entirely mature enough and somewhat introverted, I have a soft spot for the 'average' kids. A number of factors were involved, but I flourished once I got in the right environment and I cared about learning, being challenged, and using my mind. I realize there's knowledge and intelligence everywhere and I loathe the tendency of academics to follow trends like a pack of high schoolers.
I always looked upon the achievers with some skepticism, especially the asskissers, but not when intelligence, competition and determination were combined.
I'd prefer the misusers of statistics, the industry of equality and diversity, the excessive ideologues and self-interested rent-seekers scaled back.
Given the student loan wreck, the rise of technology, and the unsustainability of the current model, change is gonna come anyways.
We don't necessarily have to end up with the old prep school blueblood WASP system either to retain reasonable egalitarianism.
The lesson is - Thou Shalt Not Mock The Admission Practices Of Elite Universities!
After all, the most impressive thing that Kira has done with her life is get accepted at Columbia, and she will not stand for mocking the process that got her there.
If participating in felony murder didn't keep Kathy Boudin from gainful employment, how can this op ed possibly hurt this girl? If, as Ms. Goldenberg feels, rich, white man control the world, it couldn't possible dim her career chances to be on record (in the WSJ no less) as being a supporter of the perogatives of rich, white men.
I'd love to see Kira's Columbia application, to see how many of the tropes Suzy described are contained within.
Speaking of AA, I'm glad I went to undergrad (and grad) school before all this crap got started, but I do remember reading a quote from an Ivy-League admissions officer in the early 60s about the "Jewish Quota" in Ivy-League Admissions: "If we took only those who scored in the upper 10% on the New York State Board of Regents exam every school in the Ivies would be 90% Jewish." LOL!
I am in favor of putting extra resources to improve outcomes for children who are genuinely in need.
That's what scholarships are for.
The problem with affirmative action -- well, the OTHER problem apart from its being inherently racist -- is that it lowers standards for the people it is trying to "help". That doesn't help them. You can't improve quality by lowering standards in any OTHER area of life, so why do people think it works in academics?
If you're in, say, the 90th percentile in math, throwing you into the shark tank with a bunch of white and Asian kids who are all in the 99th percentile isn't doing you any favors. You'll just get to be the dumb kid in class and graduate with an unimpressive class ranking, assuming you graduate at all.
@Roger J, above/
LOL. You win the thread for THAT statement alone!
Damn, Rog, get cold feet?
"J-School grads are just education majors who can spell--Worthless bastards all."
Roger J.
(Did I recall it correctly, Rog? lol)
Kira graduated from Bernard College. Bernard is is a women-only school affiliated with Columbia.
There is some question as to whether Bernard grads can claim to be Columbia grads, but if you're going to write in support of AA in college admissions it's probably best not to mention Bernard. No men. Five percent African American.
In one limited sense, Miss Goldenberg's advice was correct. If Suzy wants to pursue an academic career, then having writing anything than could be be misinterpreted as being against "diversity" and "affirmative action" might well be a deal killer. There is no room in higher education for junior academics who question the diversity catechism.
Other than that, Miss Goldenberg is a tool.
Go Suzy!
Rabel keeps them honest...
Kudos...
Alas, as an MIT grad, I have to confess that MIT's admission standards have gone downhill. For example, MIT recruits athletes these days. That is so contrary to MIT's mission (MIT used to have a huge number of intercollegiate sports - everything except football - and not give a crap about how they did in any of them), it grieves me to think about it. Of course, MIT is still so hard that they just can't give 300-pts-on-the-SAT bonuses for being the right type of minority, at least not without having all their affirmative action admits flunking out.
So far as I can tell, the only first tier school in the country that admits solely on academic promise is Cal Tech.
Make that Barnard.
People used to make unbelievable claims to a pure-white ancestry in order to avoid being called anything but "white". Now they make unbelievable claims to non-white ancestry in order to avoid being called "white". What does that tell you?
Uh, that powerful and cool aren't the same thing.
Cool takes a while to take power - if you want to look at it that way. But mostly they're unrelated to each other.
Uh, that powerful and cool aren't the same thing.
Elizabeth Warren is 1/32 cool!
Cool takes a while to take power - if you want to look at it that way. But mostly they're unrelated to each other.
Kool Thing
Kim Gordon has major thigh gap.
"Harm to her future self?"
C'mon teens are posting lots of crap online that will be far more damaging.
Being published in the Wall Street Journal isn't exactly a black mark on a young person's reputation. Though in doing so, she ends up sabotaging the main theme of her piece. That IS something to brag about when applying to college.
So how do you think Weiss got published in the WSJ? Did she submit her article in some open process, as would any average Joe? Is there even a means to submit columns? Or did she, in the end, have a connected family member or family friend?
The article itself is pretty good, especially for a high-schooler. Almost makes me think it's a pseudonym for an adult "higher ed bubble" crusader. If you google the name, you get lots of links to the article or to blogs talking about the article. I followed the link for The Frisky -- lots of people insulted by her, claiming that Weiss simply didn't work hard enough and is whining and lazy, because THEY (the commenters) got into prestigious schools without any trouble at all (and in several cases, made sure to say, "yes, I'm black/Hispanic/whatever, but universities didn't admit me because I checked a box").
It's an arms race. It's stupid. When I was in band in high school, we played at the football games and had a couple concerts. Now there are all-day (7 am - 11 pm)band competitions on the weekends. Why can't a kid be in band without it being a competition and a huge time suck?
Malaysia is majority Muslim, yet Muslims get affirmative action preferences there. They think this protects them from being dominated by the minority Chinese.
It's like the old Jewish quotas here.
garage mahal,
Actually, white American women have been the biggest beneficiaries of so-called minority preferences.
No; white American women have been the largest fraction of the beneficiaries of "affirmative action." This is because "white American women" is the largest subgroup of all groups to which preferences have been applied. There are just more of us in the US than there are Blacks, or Hispanics, or Native Americans (even the blonde, blue-eyed variety).
'Revenant' said, "The problem with affirmative action ... is that it lowers standards for the people it is trying to "help". "
Affirmative action eventually lowers standards for everyone. Once schools realize that it looks bad to flunk out too many of their affirmative-action admits, they have to dumb things down.
So far, the dumbing-down seems to consist mostly of providing alternate, easier paths to graduation- the higher level math and science courses (for example) usually retain their rigor.
So far.
Jane,
When I was in band in high school, we played at the football games and had a couple concerts. Now there are all-day (7 am - 11 pm)band competitions on the weekends. Why can't a kid be in band without it being a competition and a huge time suck?
It sounds like you've got a band director who thinks that s/he's teaching music.
For those of you who don't have kids in school music ensembles, Jane might have made an inadvertent exaggeration. Nowhere are there 7 am to 11 pm competitions "on the weekends," as in every Saturday and Sunday. In most (maybe all) states, there are competitions, typically once a year, that take up a weekend day, for ensembles to play at a state festival, and possibly competition for larger regional or national festivals. It's a system designed to allow the best ensembles to strut their stuff before a larger audience.
Now, if all you want of a school band (or orchestra, or choir) is something to occupy a little time and accompany the vastly more important educational endeavor that is football, fine. But, as I said, there are school music directors who think their job is actually to teach music. Which is a difficult thing and, yes, "a huge time suck." Kind of like learning to read. Or algebra.
(Full disclosure: I am married to a high school music director. He took his high school string orchestra to three national competitions and won all of them. This was a private girls' high school with something like a conservatory embedded in it, so not your typical high school orchestra. Now, though, he has left that job and is teaching at a public school, and his orchestra there won the state championship the first year he had it. If they don't win it again this year, I'll be very surprised. I've heard them.)
Actually, Michelle, I should have specified "multiple Saturdays in the fall" rather than seeming to imply every weekend, year-round. But this isn't about kids learning to play a musical instrument -- they've already got that by the time they're in high school band. This is about the band with the best marching routine.
Oh, and one more thing on high school band: my son will be a high-schooler in two year's time. He's playing the trumpet now, and he likes it, but he's not particularly talented (has no natural feel for rhythm) and is a klutz as far as his future marching band skills. I'm concerned that, rather than offering an opportunity to develop a hobby and make friends, high school band will be just as pressure-cooker as the rest of it. (Yeah, I've got three white-male kids with no special talents who are pretty doomed unless there's affirmative action for Aspergers' or ADHD kids. Fortunately, I don't care much about them getting into top colleges because I'm not keen on paying their pricetags.)
Simply said, quit whining like you are the only one that exists.
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