Prof Richard Sharpe, from the University of Edinburgh, said: "Something in our modern lifestyle, diet or environment like chemical exposure, is causing this.I love the way it's the usual suspects — things you're supposed to want to fix anyway, and here's one more reason why. How about considering the possibility of some causes that would be uncomfortable to admit, things you don't want to perceive as problems?
"We still do not know which are the most important factors, but perhaps the most likely is a combination, a double whammy of changes, such as a high-fat diet combined with increased environmental chemical exposures."
५ डिसेंबर, २०१२
Sperm decline...
... in France.
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Sperm count goes down as wussiness goes up?
I blame feminism.
The sperm have lost interest in their target and are committing suicide!
How about considering the possibility of some causes that would be uncomfortable to admit, things you don't want to perceive as problems?
Really Althouse, do you have no understanding at all of science? Apparently not, because this continues a trend of incredibly stupid things you've said about scientific analysis. Please give it a rest.
I blame feminism.
The only surprise here is that Shouting Dumbass doesn't blame "colored people" too.
Lighten up Jake, it's funny.
Given the surliness and bizarre sense of entitlement exhibited by the females, many of my sperm have considered celibacy as the better option.
Jake, your sperm must be some of the nastiest shit on the planet! Do you start drinking as soon as you get up in the morning?
@Jake You need to start by explaining why what Sharpe said was impressive as science.
On the plus side, this means fewer French people on the planet, right?
Explaination for lower abortion rates, people are less fertile in general.
Jake's going to back up his science-talk with a cite to Talking Points Memo.
birth control pills externalilty?
I don't see how this even qualifies as a problem. It is not as if the French are making much use of their sperm anyway.
Jake's a hell of an addition to the commentariat!
He's pissed off in a general sort of way about everything by 8 a.m.!
A new internet enemy! I love it!
I bet his sperm are jumping ship by the millions.
The double whammy sounds like it could put you out of action.
@Althouse -
A scientific approach identifies possible mechanisms that could produce lower sperm counts. If you understand the biological processes involved, it's easy to understand why environmental and hormonal mechanisms seem the most likely culprits. Sharpe's comment is consistent with this, and consistent with the anecdotal evidence.
Of course it's possible that behavioral mechanisms could be responsible, but so far there isn't any evidence to lead scientists to conclude that behavioral mechanisms are likely causing the lower sperm counts.
Why on earth would eating fat have to do with a low sperm count? What's the mechanism?
I find the suggestion of a "high fat diet" interesting. Are the French, famous for eating high fat foods, now eating higher fat diets than they have in the past? If anything, it seems like the Americanization of most European's diets would lead to them eating a lower fat (and higher carb) diet than they have historically.
I think there is a connection between having a high percentage of body fat and a lower testosterone level, but that's not the same a "high-fat diet."
I blame global warming.
There are several commonly used chemical compounds that resemble estrogen used in every day products. The anti-bacterial ingredient in soap is one. Since this problem only affect men, it's no big deal.
I wonder if Sharpe will consider that since the weaker species members (especially the young) don't die at nearly the same rate they used to it might have an effect. I somewhat doubt it since the link to climate change or some other nonsense improves his chances both of funding and of getting laid.
No doubt Jake would consider this possibility outside science since it would be tough to blame conservatives and he believes that's what "science" means.
The "scientist" suggests, with no data, that it might be high fat or toxins. And yet the French have always consumed a high fat diet and their environment is quite a lot cleaner now than it was in the 1970's, so it is not really obious why these things play any role.
Another change could easily be looked at: How about the large changes in French ethnic composition? It may or may not have a role in the decline, but it would be really easy to find out.
Tight pants.
Another change could easily be looked at: How about the large changes in French ethnic composition? It may or may not have a role in the decline, but it would be really easy to find out.
I knew this would win!
Did it win? You think it's a more likely explanation than exposure to pseudo-estrogen? Please explain.
Here's more info on falling sperm counts. It's happening in the U.S. too.
Oh right. That explains why the Amish have so few children. It's the high fat diet!
Someone should study my husband. He looks at me and gets me pregnant.
It would be most inconvenient to discover a cause like trace hormonal effects from birth control pills, but that would neatly dovetail with social notions of one of the Pill's discoverers, Carl Djerassi, besides being a UW-Madison alumnus, foresaw the Pill's huge social impact, anticipating a far greater social impact on men than on women. He apparently also foresaw the so-called "feminization of men," along with changes in laws and social values in favor of women in society as a whole.
"Sperm-lacking" will never make it into the "cheese-eating surrender-monkey" phrase. It has power, but the reference is too specific.
Haven't the French been eating delicious full fat food since the dawn of time anyways? Perhaps they have gone the way of the US and are now eating excess carbs. Or could it be soy? Perhaps traces of bisphenol A?
Soy based food may contribute to low sperm counts. What's the birth rate for vegans?
The rumor is that French Sperms have accepted better offers from Bill Clinton's Arkansas where sexual conquests are a major sport. The Governors and football coaches lead the way in having way more fun.
Oh, no!!! High fat!
Saying high fat diet is like saying drive a car. What car is it? A Honda Fit or a Maserati?
Lear about Paleo folks. High fat is good. It is what your body wants to run on, However, not the fats the food pyramid people are trying to convince (have convinced) you to eat. Mazzola = poison. Same with most other vegetable oils.
We are suffering an obesity and exercise epidemic at the same time. What a wonder.
Just finished a "bulletproof coffee". Yum. 3 TBL grass fed butter and 1.5 TBL MCT oil blended with coffee.
Pesticides
4. It's something the Germans are putting in their water. (Very mysterious because no one's found it yet.)
Fluoride. It's affecting their precious bodily fluids.
Perhaps the sperm counters have an agenda. We should demand an independent audit before jumping to any conclusions. Sperm counters and envivonmental scientists are well known for their political biases...Is it possible that too much exposure to Madonna and Lady Gaga causes sperm to curdle?
The rest of your comment is all social science. Strike that. All social conjecture.
I'm not adding anything to what Djerassi says. Take it up with him. He was a pretty good scientist in his prime but does have his detractors.
I do find it interesting that your immediate reaction is hostile, leslyn.
The dietary "data" was self report, which is not data at all. The "research" is based on a disproven model of weight gain that is based on dietary fat rather than dietary carbohydrates.
Obesity may indeed lower sperm counts, it seems that the useful data leads to this conclusion. But obesity is scientifically proven to have nothing to do with fat intake.
Trey
I think I have made this comment before (as Althouse has posted about sperm before), but the UW fertility clinic gave up on stocking a sperm bank with local contributions because the quality was so poor. They have had research projects there trying to link poor sperm quality to toxins in fish but probably the local contributors were not fisherman.
You're right. It would be a real struggle if men had to face the possibility that the recent push towards a low fat diet was the cause of the problem. Quelle horreur! It would be *so* much more difficult to change that then it would be to change towards a higher fat diet. Who would want to make that change? #eyeroll
I'd like to see a news report about how there's a decline in the number of men willing to jack off in a cup for a bunch of total strangers in exchange for a couple of bucks.
Birth Control pills. The hormones aren't filtered out of our water.
Insty had a link that some scientists are beginning to work on it now.
If you think about the issue as a scientist then there are a number of factors that need to be controlled for, before one can say that there is some other cause for the decline.
Controll for: Age, smoking, general fitness, how long has it been since the subjects previously ejaculated, blood pressure, cholesterol values, vitamin levels, taking prescription drugs, body fat %, whether they wear boxers or briefs etc.
Once you controll for all of these things (and the dozen or so I haven't thought of) is there still a systematic decline?
I can't help noticing that the Reuters reporter covering this story is named Andrew Seaman. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/05/us-sperm-french-idUSBRE8B40HR20121205
But of course!
Cheers!
"How about considering the possibility of some causes that would be uncomfortable to admit, things you don't want to perceive as problems?"
Performative contradiction much, Professor Althouse?
"We're supposed to come up with something other than the "usual suspects" because they are ridiculous."
No, the exercise is the come up with other possible causes that might make some people uncomfortable. Birth control pills, for example.
Losers have lower testosterone levels, and testosterone is linked to sperm production.
Perhaps it's just that French men have come to realize that they're, well, losers.
http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/faculty/josephs/pdf_documents/EdwardsComment_MehtaJosephs.pdf
Use em or lose em.
And who the hell has time to count their sperm anyway.
If they need to, they can solve the problem by recycling.
Nobody likes the French - not even their own sperm.
leslyn said...
@Mary Beth. #5.
Has to be them. Isn't it the majority contention on this blog that "other" groups produce quite well?
If you were so sure that the majority would agree with that, shouldn't you have waited until someone did before you declared it a winner?
How about stress? Or the men providing the samples are more sexually active than what they're being compared to? How were the men chosen who participated? How old were they? Were they from all regions of France, or just close to where the study was based?
Speedo swimsuits!
Even if they don't lower sperm count they do make me uncomfortable.
Perhaps livestock exposure to bisphenol A, traces from birth control pills, and other synthetic female hormones could could be part of the problem if the fat soluble compounds are stored in the animals adipose tissue. Subsequently being stored in the tissue of obese humans.
Now if they really wanted to get creative, they'd correlate sperm counts with an increase in testicular temperature and further connect increase testicle temperatures with global warming.
Eating soy would not be a remedy if female hormones are the problem. Perhaps organic meat would be a better option. Also avoiding canned foods and bottled water because of BPA exposure. Filtering water would probably be a good idea because of traces from birth control pills.
Nahhh - it'll happen here soon enough. We live in a matriarchal society.
All Along The Sperm Tower
" There must be some way out of here" said Sertoli to the sheath
There's to much confusion" I can't get no relief
Womyn drink my wine, gaymen plow my earth
None of them along the line know what any of it is worth
"No reason to get excited", Sertoli kindly spoke
"There are many here among us who feel that life is but a toke"
But you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now, the pizza is already late".
All along the Spermtower, Cialis kept the view
While all the womyn came and went, barebutt servants, too
Outside in the distance a deep ditch did growl
Rough riders were approaching, the wind began to howl.
@joe: LOL!
In conjunction with the body odor issue, this could greatly reduce the Frog population.
I blame birth control pills and female hormones in the water. That's science! 'Cause I said so.
It could be porn. Here's a little science to back up the proposition.
http://ricochet.com/main-feed/Is-Porn-Poison-for-the-Brain
Surprised nobody asked if this has been going on since they started lining the roads with trees.
The sperm are evolving. They have developed a higher intelligence and are refusing to swim. They will not fall for Lucy pulling away the football any longer.
@chuck, no it is not science, it is idea ranting on a blog.
From what I've read, fat cells hold onto toxins, toxins from environmental sources build up to levels that affect hormones. Simply stated.
What I believe they may have gotten wrong is that ingestion of fat isn't what makes a fat cell fat, it's carbs that do this. Persons with fat fat cells will have the increased levels of toxins because of the increased levels of body fat.
Inga said...
From what I've read, fat cells hold onto toxins, toxins from environmental sources build up to levels that affect hormones. Simply stated.
This is a strong argument against personal carbon sequestration.
BC & HRT have been in our water 50 years. Who knows?
@Inga, it could be possible that is the underlying reason that obese individuals have any number of problems. It still leaves open the question of why high fat diets would be a problem. Perhaps high fat diets are a problem for people who are already obese, leading to the storage of toxins that are ingested through a number of sources including the consumption of meat fat with toxins. I am still not ruling out estrogen mimicking contaminates.
Just being an observer here, as I am most of the time, I can see why AA must be a fabulous law professor encouraging the students to question everything. Certainly not a mind-numbed robot for PC.
Perhaps liposuction could be beneficial in more that just a cosmetic way. Losing weight may cause the release of toxins into the bloodstream, whereas liposuction would remove them completely.
"chickelit said...
Inga said...
From what I've read, fat cells hold onto toxins, toxins from environmental sources build up to levels that affect hormones. Simply stated.
This is a strong argument against personal carbon sequestration."
I don't know about that. Look, you ingest a toxin and then different things can happen:
1. It can be processed (usually by the liver) into something else. Often that processing is into something more toxic, such as ethanol being processed into acetaldehyde.
2. It can be stored, usually in fat.
3. It can be removed from the body, usully in urine.
It seems like if you have a lot of fat, then toxins would be taken out of circulation more rapidly. Do they have an effect while stored? Unless they are catalitic, I wouldn't think so.
"But Dr Allan Pacey, senior lecturer in andrology at the University of Sheffield"
Andrology?!
Well, I guess that sounds a lot more hoity-toity than working at the U of Sheffield Institute for the Study of Dudes.
PS: Andrology isn't even recognized as a word by Blogger's spell check.
My money's on "second-hand pill" effects. It's time for men to have a class-action lawsuit against Big Birth Control. They've had studies that have shown the effects of the hormones in birth control pills on men, but the results have been suppressed for decades. They're not safe, they've never been safe, and they've known all along! If not for men's second-class status in our matriarchal society, this would never have been allowed to continue for as long as it has.
'I do not avoid women, Mandrake, but I do deny them my essence.'
My premise and that of he low carb nutritionists and scientists, obesity experts, etc. is that by eating a low number of carbohydrate foods daily will keep those fat cells small, thereby keeping us slimmer. It's not CONSUMPTION a high fat diet that causes the low sperm count it's the body fat.
Who knows perhaps these scientists are correct and lowcarbers are wrong, but this has been discussed in several of the publications I've read regarding obesity and storage of toxins and male infertility, even male mammary growth, otherwise known as moobs and the science points to high levels of body fat. Moobs aren't just unsightly, they grow because of increased levels of estrogen in males because of obesity.
Another thought, alcohol consumption has also been known to grow male mammaries, moobs, so does alcohol consumption also cause hormonal imbalances in the gonads? I think it is plausible. And the French do consume alcohol with that bread and cheese.
Rustling leaves, you are right about the releasing of toxins into the blood stream when losing weight, one of the reasons that drinking large amounts of water are recommended when actively losing weight. Also your LDL (bad cholesterol) levels will rise significantly when those fat cells are releasing fat inro the bloodstream. When one no longer is actively losing weight the LDL levels go back to normal or close to it.
OT: Via ZeroHedge:
Nothing to see here, move along:
New Inflation Gauge Would Cut Benefits, Hike Taxes : NPR
The inflation measure under consideration is called the Chained Consumer Price Index. On average, the measure shows a lower level of inflation than the more widely used Consumer Price Index.
The chained CPI assumes that as prices rise, consumers turn to lower-cost alternatives, reducing the amount of inflation they experience. For example, if the price of beef increases while the price of pork does not, people will buy more pork.
It's like living w/in a budget, we peons have to sacrifice, but let's take the caps off the debt limit.
It worked for residential real estate.
You can afford beef? You're rich!
True enough Leslyn. So I guess it's more plausible to consider body fat and toxin release affecting hormones. We do have much higher levels of environmental toxins nowadays, that could get stored and then released into the blood stream to do it's damage, whether that be male infertility or moobs, or cancer.
I guess caring about the environment and what we dump into it would be worthwhile. Childhood leukemia, brain tumors, breast cancer, all more emergent than low sperm levels.
We're living longer, we will see more cancer. Heard that a few years ago, 85% of the population will get some form of it.
Jockey shorts.
Jockey shorts.
Ah! I know what I forgot to mention, just as high levels of insulin in obese females affects their ovaries, causing polycystic ovarian syndrome, high levels of insulin in obese males could cause a corresponding issue with the testes, resulting in low sperm count. I don't doubt the build up and release to toxins adds to this and makes a perfect storm in the male testes, oh the humanity!
Did they control for masturbation frequency varying by population and time? According to this, if you don't do it at least every two days your sperm gets old and yellow, if you do it more often than twice a day semen volume drops. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_masturbation_lower_sperm_count
Ambrose said...
"I blame global warming."
So do I. Global warming and too much bicycling are causing French men's testicles to overheat. In addition, heavy metals accumulate in French compost and end up in their organic salads. And, overconsumption of alcohol kills spermatozoa.
Also, too much masturbation. (A French word).
Lyssa said...
I find the suggestion of a "high fat diet" interesting. Are the French, famous for eating high fat foods, now eating higher fat diets than they have in the past? If anything, it seems like the Americanization of most European's diets would lead to them eating a lower fat (and higher carb) diet than they have historically.
Yes.
They use lots and lots of butter, cream, suet, and anything else that's fattening and makes food taste good.
If you want to travel just to eat. France is the place to go.
The big problem with this study is that they did not incorporate any obvious correlations: is low sperm count correlated with being overweight? With exercising? With any particular regions of the country? With ethnicity? Have any of these factors changed over time? Very unhelpful study. Interesting thought experiment, though: what if hormones in the water due to BC pills are causing these sorts of issues (also the early puberty issue)? Would we ban them? Reqire zillion-dollar upgrades to our water treatment systems? Or just say, tough luck?
And now the French want to also dumb down their schools by banning homework.
Impotent in more ways than one.
Yea, it must be in the water.
@Jane, home based filtration systems. If synthetic hormones really are a problem though, I would be more concerned about sources of bisphenol A in everyday items (water bottles, cans), not that BC pills should not be a concern at all. Copper IUDs are non hormonal, so banning the hormonal pills would not leave women without contraception. However, if contaminants from prescription drugs are really a concern for the water supply, the problem is bigger than BC pills. Private filtration is the best way to approach it from a personal responsibility angle. The filtration systems are somewhat expensive, but not really when you think of how vital water is to your life. Many people probably spend more in a year on booze and cigarettes or vacations or some other luxuries.
How about considering the possibility of some causes that would be uncomfortable to admit, things you don't want to perceive as problems?
As an example, the use of fertility clinics may be allowing men to reproduce who normally wouldn't. That might not be too pleasant to consider, as it then goes on to point out many people are surviving who would not, and reproducing. And even worse.
That thought might also lead to the unpleasant thought about who in the human race is reproducing, and who is not.
Monogamy reduced the need for so many little rascals.
You're right to be worried about meds in the drinking water. When I was still nursing, we would often have to destroy a deceased patient's meds, including narcotics, two of us would witness the other as we dumped them down the drain in the sink of the medroom. Lots and lots of drugs, being dumped into the sewer, which gets dumped into the lake, which we drink, how much do those filtration plants filter besides certain bacteria?
Other possible causes -
- Tight pants
- Tight underwear. I hear boxers aren't so popular in Europe
- Too much "self abuse". Is there a control for this in sampling ?
- Maybe tobacco helps sperm counts ? Back in the day of high sperm counts almost every male smoked.
- Alcohol may be good for fertility. I understand there has been a significant decline in alcohol consumption.
Moobs aren't just unsightly, they grow because of increased levels of estrogen in males because of obesity.
Bielemia is bulimia without the vomiting.
Other than the problem already identified, that of not correlating this phenomenon with other factors (one that occurs to me is whether relative inactivity has any correlation? Insofar as people in prosperous societies tend toward less dangerous, and more sendentary activities. Just a hunch.), there is the problem of sample bias.
This only included men whose mating partners were seeking technological assistance in conceiving.
I have no clue what that means; maybe it means nothing; but it's not self evidently a representative sample of all post pubescent males in France.
Are there studies of sperm counts that account for this? That would be a challenge, as I can imagine the difficulties of getting everyone you want to, to participate. (Yes, I can think of the jokes too.)
@Fr, True. Perhaps the perception that the woman's fertility was the problem led some of these couples to seek help, when really the man's infertility was the problem from the beginning.
So there's widespread agreement that body fats store toxins and there's more toxins around. But some say the toxins are agricultural chemicals and BPA even at trace levels while others say that the toxins are birth control hormones. Then supporters of birth control say the birth control hormones though far above BPA levels no effect. So that would be my question - Are there more birth control hormones than BPA in the water? Why would that be OK?
As far as science goes insults are not a scientific argument.
Refusing to answer objections while simply reiterating previous statements is also not an intelligent argument - it is a leftist tactic.
My toxicologist relative is always warning me not to eat too much dairy as the producers are fed hormones and it is now loaded with estrogen in excess of what it used to be, which apparently will increase levels in the bodily system.
This is also a potential factor. But just note that there is a vested and entrenched commerical interest behind all potential sources of hormonal contaminants.
Estrogen in the water supply, from women on birth control pills and peeing out excess estrogen.
The Pill promised men free sex, and made men sex free.
Bielemia is bulimia without the vomiting.
I'll bet some people gagged when they heard Bielema was leaving.
Adipose tissue is not inert--it MAKES estrogen! (Not just stores it.) So if the lower sperm count is being found in the increasingly obese froggies, there may be a correlation.
@wildswan, it probably depends on the location. Rural areas probably have a higher amount of farm contaminants, population dense areas may have high concentrations from BC, and an industrial or waste management area from estrogen mimicking compounds in plastics etc. However, you will rarely hear environmentalists express concern about BC in the water, but they will talk until they are blue in the face about contaminants from farms and industry. Yes, we should care if birth control pills are contaminating the water. How will it affect the development of boys? Does it cause depression in vulnerable individuals? Blood clots? Heart problems? There are a lot of potential side effects. There are a lot of sources to consider though.
Use organic dairy products. Supposed to be hormone free.
Kentucky Liz, I hear that Endocrinologists say adipose tissue as another endocrine organ, because as you say it's not inert and does secrete. Leptin and Grehlin being two very important hormones, which are unbalanced in obese individuals.
Ghrelin.
Ghrelins were ugly cars. Made in Kenosha by AMC at the nadir of American car design.
wildswan said...
So there's widespread agreement that body fats store toxins and there's more toxins around. But some say the toxins are agricultural chemicals and BPA even at trace levels while others say that the toxins are birth control hormones. Then supporters of birth control say the birth control hormones though far above BPA levels no effect. So that would be my question - Are there more birth control hormones than BPA in the water? Why would that be OK
To answer your question; I don't know. But my BIL is a civil engineer specializing in potable water supplies. He works for a medium sized Illinois municipality. He lives in fear that the EPA is someday going to require that all drinking water be treated for female hormones. Right now, according to him, there is no process to remove or remediate them.
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