The official report on the incident released by the Madison Police Department on Oct. 11 describes the confiscated property as not only bed rolls and suitcases, but cardboard boxes, grocery bags, trash bags, and containers of alcohol. “Many items were wet and appeared to have been left for several days,” the report says. Wray is quoted as saying it is a “tough job” to manage public spaces, particularly in the area of the Capitol Square, where, the report says “property – with no identification – is often abandoned, or left unattended or long periods of time.”While I don't think what the police did was wrong and there's no need to be "contrite," there are many good aspects to the sympathetic communication with the troubled citizens we see in this video:
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Madison police chief apologizes to the homeless for the removal of their belongings left on the public sidewalks.
"Madison Police Chief Noble Wray was contrite Tuesday when he met with a group of homeless people..."
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So, the $64,000 question is: in a city as "progressive" as Madison, why are there ANY homeless?
How many homeless people died from Sandy, and how many people with homes?
Homeless people will gravitate to Madison precisely because of this kind of sympathetic treatment, which is laudable IMO.
Quayle raises a good point. Who really expects the government to do anything about homelessness? Or do some people just feel better to have a lot of tax (or borrowed from China) money spent to create programs.
In any case be homeless over there, not here.
Qu and SteveR...exactly. In what is almost a perfect liberal city, there should be 100% employment, and for those that don't work, 100% housing.
Do they have zoning laws in Madison? Are they selectively inforced?
Most good progressives hold both thoughts in their head at the same time, that people living on the streets is a personal lifestyle choice, and that it's the evil capitalists that have forced them to live on the street.
It's remarkable the cognitive space they have to hold these kinds of thoughts together.
I'm all for the police being more sympathetic.
Often they act like citizens aren't citizens... even our bums.
I also don't disagree with what they did.
Dave....to me, sympathetic treatment to the homeless would be to give them treatment (for those with mental or substance problems), job training, then get them a job at Wal-Mart or someplace that does entry level jobs for those with little job skills.
Saying, "you can camp out and keep your stuff in our main downtown parks" is not doing anyone any favors.
I thought homelessness ended when Obama was elected.
Well, Carnifex, I'll bet that Madison is working on bus vouchers for the homeless, tent cities, new social programs that direct giving where it needs to go and sensitivity awareness seminars for police, fire and other civil services. They're relentlessly hammering away and redirecting tax dollars through the legislature to their pet projects and causes, and general activism.
They're busy shaming all residents who disagree.
Next stop: equality, social justice, and a more solid "community," if not an end to homelessness.
You're welcome!
I don't expect much from the government to help the homeless ( or anyone for that matter, maybe I'm too cynical). However as a Christian I know that we each have a personal responsibility to help the poor. Not always easy to do of course as homeless folks are frequently unsympathetic. Communities are rightly measured by how they treat the least well off.
If someone insisted on letting your daughter or son live filthy on the street, would you thank them for their compassion?
Being a homeless bum has its privileges.
Fighting Civil Forfeiture Abuse
Imagine you own a million-dollar piece of property free and clear, but then the federal government announces that it is going to take it from you, not compensate you one dime, and then pad the budgets of federal and local law enforcement agencies with the money they get from selling your land—all this even though you have never so much as been accused of a crime, let alone convicted of one.
...Seeking to circumvent state law and cash in on the profits, the Tewksbury Police Department is working with the U.S. Department of Justice to take and sell the Caswells property because a tiny fraction of people who have stayed at the Motel Caswell during the past 20 years have been arrested for crimes. Keep in mind, the Caswells themselves have worked closely with law enforcement officials to prevent and report crime on their property. And the arrests the government complains of represent less than .05 percent of the 125,000 rooms the Caswells have rented over that period of time.
Despite all this, the Caswells stand to lose literally everything they have worked for because of this effort by federal and local law enforcement officials not to pursue justice, but rather to police for profit.
Precisely because it is mortgage-free, the motel has now become an attractive target for taking by federal and local law enforcement officials who seek to cash in on what the Caswells have earned.
The U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) and the Tewksbury police department are demanding the Caswells forfeit the entire property—worth more than a million dollars— because a tiny fraction of people who have stayed at the Motel Caswell during the past 20 years have been arrested for crimes.
Keep in mind, the Caswells themselves have worked closely with law enforcement officials to prevent and report crime on their property. And the arrests the government complains of represent less than .05 percent of the 125,000 rooms the Caswells have rented over that period of time. Indeed, the government’s lawsuit identifies only 19 arrests of guests staying the motel during the past 18 years as the basis of the forfeiture.
...In short, civil forfeiture treats law abiding citizens worse than criminals, presuming them guilty until they can prove their innocence—a heavy burden for any property owner against the power and resources of the government.
Unlike criminal cases, which charge people with wrong doing, a civil forfeiture case is an in rem proceeding (which means literally “against a thing”); the property itself is said to have acted wrongly and is being sued. The idea behind forfeiture was adopted centuries ago in British law to allow customs agents to seize ships and cargo that were in violation of customs laws. Since the owners of the ships were often on another continent, and ownership of the goods and cargo was not clear, it was justified as the only way to enforce the law. Forfeiture is now wrongly used by law enforcement in modern America to take property that police merely suspect of being involved in crime.
Under federal law, the property that law enforcement agents take is, incredibly, kept by those same agencies—going straight to the bottom line of their budgets. When local law enforcement agencies team up with the U.S. Department of Justice, the federal government takes the property and pays out up to 80 percent of the money to local or state law enforcement agencies—something it calls “equitable sharing” of forfeiture proceeds.
"Next stop: equality, social justice, and a more solid "community," if not an end to homelessness."
If you got on a bus that never got to it's destination, or even closer than it was yesterday, and yet you had to keep paying the fare over and over and higher and higher, would you stay on that bus?
I should mention I don't believe that government sponsored welfare helps because it's loveless, feel good, self congratulatory, promotes a sense of entitlement and ingratitude in the recipient and resentment in the taxpayer etc. What I'm saying is that social justice (a much distorted term from Catholic social teaching) demands that we act in some manner, preferably through the Church.
"If someone insisted on letting your daughter or son live filthy on the street, would you thank them for their compassion?"
I would thank them for not summarily tossing them in jail or beating them up or running them out of town.
You've also got to pander to blacks, women, gays etc. because it all fits under the equality banner.
Then you get in bed with unions. You choke citizens to death with environmental regulations and push projects like the train from Milwaukee to Madison. You want single-payer health care and vastly expand the federal government.
Should any of this fail because you eventually run out of other people's money, or have successfully jammed the legislature with your utopian plans and fiscal irresponsibility. If you're successful enough that crony capitalism no longer an option just corrupt and increasingly brutal totalitarian leadership, you stop activating having become a useful idiot or an enforcer with the brownshirts just to feed your family.
If you're worked hard, you've eroded all other religious and conservative traditions that maintain personal morality, civil society and the only two options remaining are socialism or fascism. Two sides of the same coin. Ethnic conflict and brutal violence, privation and decades of lurching forward await, if not a war just to keep things exciting.
You win! Just like Europe.
"I would thank them for not summarily tossing them in jail or beating them up or running them out of town."
I would prefer they go to jail, and be put to forced labor, where they would be paid for doing useful work and learn to survive in a modern society through their own labor, but that's because I love them. I can't see how leaving your child filthy in the street losing all self-discipline and respect is loving. It is guaranteed to make them worse.
You guys are missing my point.
How is it that in a city as progressive as Madison, the plight of the homeless isn't already addressed?
If it can't be done in Madison, with the left in virtually total control, how are evil capitalist-right-wingers supposed to have a chance?
Show us how to do it, Madison. Show us how to help the homeless, and we'll follow your lead.
Or don't your social policies work?
Or is it always the man's fault, regardless of how much of government you control?
Bagoh,
Jail might help some, I don't deny the possibility. Forced labor however is contrary to love; it's not even respectful. Leaving some to rot on the street is not the only alternative to jail.
Quayle,
To address your point. I think liberals want to appear to care but aren't actually concerned about authentically helping. The goal is to assuage personal guilt not actually solve the problem. Does that come close to what you mean to say?
What these people need is a job. I have done it with mixed success. I have hired homeless people given them a little help, but insisted they do what the rest of us have to do to not be dependent and to become self-sufficient. It takes someone on a personal level to get involved, to be watching, to be there, to be reckoned with when the weakness comes. Government help, and even much of the church help is often just kicking the homeless down the road of life. If the government wanted to help it would encourage business to hire these people, insist they not live on the street, instead direct them to where they can work. As long as there is an easier route, it will always be taken. A lot of the work that such people used to do to get started have become over-paid unionized government jobs that cost business far more in taxes than it would to hire these people.
Bravo Bagoh, you are to be commended. It takes a lot of personal effort to do what you've done and I agree that what you describe is the right way.
No doubt unionization and excessive employer costs make this kind of effort especially hard.
"Forced labor however is contrary to love; it's not even respectful."
I don't know about that - most of us were subjected to it by our loving parents, and continue through most of our lives to do it.
I'm not talking about forced at the end of a bayonet or whip, but at the point of benefits they want like freedom, a better life and progress. You need to show them the path out, and point them down that road, following them, refusing to let them turn around. Before long they just walk ahead out of sight. Having been there I know that being homeless is hard work, and the return is very poor. Once most see that there is a better option, they like it.
We will however just need to pay for and treat the substance abusing and insane, but again it should include useful work. Work is the great sanitizer, and the fertilizer of a life. Without it, a person is just an empty shell.
"I don't know about that - most of us were subjected to it by our loving parents, and continue through most of our lives to do it."
I'll trust a parent to coerce lovingly but in jail we are talking about the state. I agree that work is great aide but I am also saying some level of voluntary cooperation is necessary to get to success. Not everyone, maybe not even a plurality will respond well, especially if the force is strong.
"Bravo Bagoh, you are to be commended"
It's not out of a good heart, I just don't like to see things wasted, especially people, and it just bothers me to no end to see people begging on the street, when every business I know has work that needs done, and the streets these people are sitting next to are full of pot holes, and trash because our system insists that filling that pot hole must cost the equivalent of what could support that guy for days.
We need to eliminate all the obstacles to hiring people, especially people with few skills like this who are hard to justify paying all the mandated costs of hiring them. These people need to START somewhere. Starting needs to be the easy part, because that's the part that matters most.
I'll go as far as to say like Paul that "if any would not work, neither should he eat"
"These people need to START somewhere. Starting needs to be the easy part, because that's the part that matters most."
Excellent point this is why the minimum wage is so bad it's a barrier to teens working.
There was a time they were called bums.
Dave said...
Homeless people will gravitate to Madison precisely because of this kind of sympathetic treatment, which is laudable IMO.
No, it's what's called enabling.
Why don't all of those compassionate and caring liberals in Madison acquire a couple of buildings to house these people so they aren't sleeping and urinating on the sidewalks?
Compassion, restraint and professionalism is always commendable, especially in the police. Yes the homeless do take advantage, but that doesn't remove our Christian responsibility. St. John Vianney puts it this way concerning alms giving "The poor will be judged on the use they have made of their alms, and you will be judged on the very alms that you could have given but haven't."
The whole conversation makes me realize I could do a lot better myself.
So Labor Unions are the main reason people are homeless, and the way to fix homelessness is to put even more people (America already holds the world record for imprisonment) into jail, because jail is a good place for folks can learn job&social skills?
*sigh*
This is why I come to this blog...it is always interesting learning about other peoples' perceptions & opinions, no matter how misguided they appear to me.
One quick question tho: Many folks are claiming that Madison is virtually controlled by liberals. Is there any city in our state that is virtually controlled by conservatives, or do those leftists run it all?
Idiot.
There are laws.
Enforce them.
I would suggest to at least ask the guy sitting there to clean up the block he's on and if he does, you give him a voucher that gets him a meal or a bed. It's hard to trade such a thing for drugs, dealers won't want it. The homeless guy also won't want other bums hanging around messing up their work. Pretty soon bums are running from street to street looking to clean them up. And those chanting liberals should be paying them to hold signs, so they can get back to work teaching the children.
Why can't we do this? You know who is against it. The same people against most cheaper solutions to things.
It never hurts to apologize if an honest mistake was made. However, litter is litter. If you leave your junk unattended you suffer the consequences.
Labor unions are not the reason that people are homeless. But politically, the anti-homeless crusaders and unions team up, and support candidates that vote for their own interests...
...with very questionable results, often creating the kinds of economic conditions with higher unemployment and perhaps more homelessness.
People have moral obligations to other people, government is generally not an efficient way to meet them. in my experience.
"...Unions are the main reason people are homeless ..."
Classic strawman purple - no one said unions are the "main" reason, just one barrier to low cost solutions.
"The whole conversation makes me realize I could do a lot better myself."
I have slipped a lot lately, being overly focused to closer concerns, and I too need to step it up some this year. A good plan is in order to have more effect from now on. It was good to have this talk. Thanks Dave.
How gracious, you're very welcome Bagoh
This is madness.
Madison is emulating all the failed policies of California and New York, which resulted in more and increasingly violent homeless.
It's so bad in our little burg that the non-violent homeless are asking the cops to get crack down on the criminal homeless; the nice homeless are getting hassled, robbed and beat up.
And for those of you who think it's Christian to make life easy for homeless, ask yourself: if your brother was an addict, would you want someone to make it easy for him to remain an addict?
This is moral vanity, not moral.
People have moral obligations to other people, government is generally not an efficient way to meet them. in my experience.
Bingo!
"And for those of you who think it's Christian to make life easy for homeless, ask yourself: if your brother was an addict, would you want someone to make it easy for him to remain an addict?"
It's Christian to help the homeless the addict to remember their humanity. I don't pretend the government policies are the way to make this work. I think they have obviously failed, but that's not a reason to give up completely. I also don't pretend to know the best way to solve these problems. What seems to work , at least a little bit is the direct personal involvement of someone who cares. In other words this is a very challenging. Christ himself said the poor would always be with us, I don't expect to be successful here.
Your are also right to point out the real risk of moral vanity, which is especially easy here.
Do you want to make the sacrifice it takes to try and help another man get out of his position as bagoho20 suggests?
Once people's paychecks, identities, careers and raison d'etre are involved in the homeless industry, diminishing returns are the rule, because of the eventual cost and waste grows given human nature and the rules of bureaucracy.
The costs of having the homeless (crime, lower property values, scared off customers) drawn there by some service, or just a good panhandling spot, is borne by the residents and businesses, and less by those who gather the tax revenue to continue to fund their own interests, which now have been all mixed together and whose primary purpose is to score more funding and influence politicians.
Go visit San Francisco, or Seattle, if you want an object lesson in where much of this leads.
Ugh bad editing, sorry
no one said unions are the "main" reason,
Granted, nobody has actually said the word "main"...rather it was just the only reason given for homeless people being unable to get a job.
If this was a game, you'd get a point. But since this is a discussion, your nitpicking means we both lose.
I thought homelessness ended when Obama was elected.
I thought the seas would stop rising too. I supposed the unemployment rate will get worse now also.
Also, you're probably better off giving your money and time to people who are already helping, because logistically they're many steps ahead and have a seen what generally tends to work.
Good on you bagoh20.
In most of California, it is easy to be "homeless". The weather is great. Your chances of freezing or even being very cold are nil. The "homeless" are getting thousands of dollars of benefits from SSI, Welfare, Food Stamps, free medical care. All paid for by ME and other tax payers.
Why do I have quotes around "homeless"....because I know for a fact that many of those that we, in California, see standing and begging at street corners, with their cardboard signs and the obligatory dog are actually living in subsidized apartment buildings close by. And why do they have a dog. They also get supplemental food stamps for the dog's food and to tug on the tender heartstrings of easy marks.
I feel more sorry for the dog than I do for the fake homeless beggars. The dogs don't get a choice. Not only do they stake out every commercial corner, they also seem to have shifts. We see them changing the guard at set times. 90% of them are younger than 30, able bodied and certainly able to get a job of some sort.
BUT...they don't. Why should they? Everything is paid for and they can make some spare change by getting some gullible sucker to hand them tax free, un-reportable money.
Are there some people who are truly homeless and needy. YES! The are actually disabled or mentally ill. They need help and the compassionate thing would be to remove them from the streets, whether they like it or not.
I would help those people individually or give them some money which would be a waste since it just makes them a target to be robbed....BUT I won't because I can't be sure that they are not the fake "homeless" or not. Their chances for help have been ruined by the scammers and con artists. Won't get fooled again. Charitable impulses have been stamped out by the government deciding that it can do everything.....as a result, we are lulled into doing nothing.
I do donate to the Salvation Army and the local Soroptomists battered women's shelter as I consider them one of the few agencies that can help.
DBQ:
There was a good article by Heather McDonald a while back in the City Journal.
On the West coast, there are the pretend homeless, or the skimmers, street rats, partying "lifestyle choice" homeless who move up and down the coast and there are the varying stages of truly homeless.
L.A. San Francisco, and Seattle especially might as well have beacons sent out to the rest of the country because of the good weather in CA, and all the social services.
I shit you not, due to the childish progressive ethos in Seattle, I think being homeless or young and counter-culture, anti-establishment, street rat is a kind of badge of honor.
It's incentivized.
I will say, that in a small town , like ours, you personally know the circumstances of those who are in need and everyone will put an effort into helping those people either by offering them a job or donating goods and finding them a shelter.
The ones I am talking about are those ubiquitous, on the corner, fake sign beggars. They have made a career out of being "homeless"
Speaking of dogs and homeless: there are lots of homeless people sitting around lonely with nothing to do, no responsibility. There are also lots of dogs locked in shelters in the same condition and needing a human for companionship and purpose, not to mention having their basic care provided. The government is paying to keep both right where they are. Maybe there is an opportunity there somehow.
Why don't all of those compassionate and caring liberals in Madison acquire a couple of buildings to house these people so they aren't sleeping and urinating on the sidewalks?
Because they'd turn into warrens of drugs and crime.
"The ones I am talking about are those ubiquitous, on the corner, fake sign beggars."
The cure to begging is simple: don't give. There are much better ways to help people than to throw them change. Save it up until you can "teach a man to fish." Find one ready to learn and give it to him, or an organization that teaches people to fish.
Even better, find a struggling business, and buy something with it. Buy a can of paint and a paint brush and give it to a family that needs to paint their front porch. Even better help them do it. Hire a homeless guy to paint your own porch. Win/ win.
You will bump up against a problem in this kind of thing, criminal tendency, and the slinking predator in the bush - the lawyer. You just need to be careful. Frankly, the lawyer is the scarier one.
Hire a homeless guy to paint your own porch. Win/ win.
Done done that. We know a family who lost their home down in the Sacramento Valley. They have moved in with Grandpa, who needs to have some help....he is in his 90's. They are really down on their luck.
BUT....the Dad and the young son are really handy and used to have a painting service. They are asking for work. We hired them to weed eat our property and clean up brush. After that we had the young kid (I say young from my perspective ....he is probably mid 30's) paint part of the exterior of the workshop and do the trim on the upper story. He gave us a good bid ($600 in wages for the paint job, we bought the paint. We tipped him another $100 because his work was so good. Plus, another $180 for the yard work). They did a great job and we are recommending them to everyone!! I'm printing some business cards for his handyman service/status so he can hand those out and get more jobs.
This is how you help the homeless or those down on their luck. Hand UP not hand OUT.
So....you can just sit back and mope about their loss of home and reduced circumstances, beg for money and live off of the taxpayers.... or get off your ass and build a new business, get work and keep your self esteem.
Yes, DBQ, homeless in CA is largely a scam.
Now we have homeless bringing their dogs into our library! The librarians won't do anything because the homeless/criminals designate them on their own as helping dogs.
And why should we give more money to homeless charities when they have clearly only INCREASED homelessness?
Everything is paid for and they can make some spare change by getting some gullible sucker to hand them tax free, un-reportable money.
I especially enjoyed being insulted, cursed and followed down the street when opting not to donate (SFO and Berkeley), like they felt entitled to my money.
Or having to wait at my old Muni stop (Judah and 46th) for the overdue train after declining to contribute. They get a bit frosty, especially when they outnumber you.
purplepenquin said...
So Labor Unions are the main reason people are homeless, and the way to fix homelessness is to put even more people (America already holds the world record for imprisonment) into jail, because jail is a good place for folks can learn job&social skills?
*sigh*
This is why I come to this blog...it is always interesting learning about other peoples' perceptions & opinions, no matter how misguided they appear to me.
One quick question tho: Many folks are claiming that Madison is virtually controlled by liberals. Is there any city in our state that is virtually controlled by conservatives, or do those leftists run it all?
Quit trying to change the subject.
The question is; Why, in a committed left city like Madison Wisconsin are there any homeless at all?
Why aren't these people being taken care of? Why don't they have homes, a place to stay?
Don't you,PP, care?
I used to always give to panhandlers years ago. Then I would see them there every day, and after meeting and talking to them, I realized that most were quite capable of earning a living and some were making more begging than I did working, so that stopped that. It is entirely unnecessary for most, especially the young ones who are just looking for free party money, and a way to avoid getting a job, which can really harsh your mellow.
Where I've lived for 30 years now is close to Venice Beach and Santa Monica, which are the mecca and medina of homelessness. I have seen people start out as young healthy capable panhandlers and end up being there for many years if they don't break out early. They can end up almost incapable of living any other way. It's a sin really to let them start down that path, which you do when you give them money for nothing.
WOuld it be OK to park a car on the sidewalk?
Bettendorf Iowa has made a start at the correct approach (treating them as equal citizens).
Panhandlers Required to Get License, Social Referrers
"because jail is a good place for folks can learn job&social skills?"
That's what liberals have been telling us for decades.
No, we need to change the whole system of handling homelessness with the emphasis on work, not handouts. Why should volunteers need to take off from work, school, or their own leisure time to feed the homeless when the homeless are idle hands already there? The first job a homeless person should get is helping other homeless. Right now the homeless are often used to give the well off a nice boost of self worth. They are keeping for themselves the one thing the homeless need most.
"WOuld it be OK to park a car on the sidewalk?"
Only if it's filled to the top with clothes, newspaper, cans and that smell of freedom they always have.
@bagho20:
San Fran recently proposed to do just what you suggested about shelter dogs and homeless - basically paying homeless to keep and tend dogs from the shelter, thus supposedly killing two birds with one stone.
Me, I'm so cynical that I immediately wrote in my imagination, job descriptions for the new city employees who will be needed in order to administer the program, vet the potential dog-keepers, visit them to make sure the dogs are being well cared-for, pretend to respond to the complaints of local shopowners who have to clean dog feces off their sidewalks, etc. ad infinitum.
Does that make me a bad person?
Obama has talked about supporting gay marriage.
Ergo, gays everywhere can now get married.
That's the weird vibe I've noticed with more on the leftis that talking about a problem is 90% of a solution.
This is madness. Liberals care so much about the "dignity" of homeless paraphernalia and less about the basic human dignity of being self sufficient.
About 20 years ago the San Antonio PD noticed a large number of homeless with one-way bus tickets from Austin.
Austin PD had been placing their own homeless on SA-bound buses with tickets courtesy of the City of Austin. Sneaky b*st*rds.
He should have given them the Gene Hackman.
The liberal bastion of Texas, Austin, was sending off its homeless?
LOL!
Homeless people will gravitate to Madison precisely because of this kind of sympathetic treatment, which is laudable IMO.
Good. We have plenty to spare here in Northern California.
Or having to wait at my old Muni stop (Judah and 46th) for the overdue train after declining to contribute. They get a bit frosty, especially when they outnumber you.
Let Gene Hackman be your guide.
furious_a said...
About 20 years ago the San Antonio PD noticed a large number of homeless with one-way bus tickets from Austin.
Austin PD had been placing their own homeless on SA-bound buses with tickets courtesy of the City of Austin. Sneaky b*st*rds.
When we visit our daughter in California there's a used camera store in Costa Mesa that she likes to go to. The first time we went I decided to park the car across the street by the park until I noticed that it wasn't a party in the park but about thirty homeless people with all their stuff. I didn't want to put temptation in their way so I made a U-turn to park on the other side of the street and found out that the park was directly across the street from the police station.
Only in Cali.
Chief Wray was right to do this. Powerful organizations like the police need to fess up when wrong and show compassion when people are harmed. If you don't agree you need to read my blog at http://improvingpolice.wordpress.com.
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