"You’ve spread your seed, so to speak, and joined the ranks of your own father... not only are you a dork when you lapse into goo-goo talk, but now you’re less of a man scientifically."
Oh, man, the guys will have their revenge for all the cat litter box cleaning they had to do when we women were pregnant and had to be protected from toxoplasmosis.
During pregnancy, the man is the pussy man, dealing with the cat poo. But now that the baby is born, if she doesn't want a pussy man, depleted in testosterone, it is her turn to handle the poo.
Now, these arguments about division of household labor have a new dimension: My dear, are you anti-science or are you trying to emasculate me?
ADDED: Is it manly to make that argument? It suggests you need to conserve the testosterone you have. It would be more macho to act like you have plenty to spare. Also, I think diaper changing is one of the more manly baby-related chores? It's a dirty job and someone's got to do it. We don't have a study about which specific baby-relted activities are testosterone depleting. I'm going to speculate that it would tend to be the ones like bottle/breast-feeding where you look for a long time into the baby's eyes... not the one where you're looking at the nether regions.
September 17, 2011
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I cleaned the litter cans up when I was pregnant.
And, now that I'm old ... my youngest cat ... came running in from the outdoors ... as she just discovered she can, in fact, go outside to play.
And, she ran in to "go to the bathroom!" I couldn't believe it!
There's a garden outside. She prefers her litter pan.
I hate the cleanup job. But litter's gotten so much better of time! (When I was young, there wasn't even such a thing as cat litter! My mom shredded up newspaper.)
Cats are great pets.
And, you know what? I've seen men stocking up on cat food ... when I shop. So, I think humans just know how to take care of the pets they adore.
While most cats think they own their homes. We're just guests.
Dad has to help out with the icky poo, but once the baby has quit being a baby and has become a real person, around age two and a half, a man has to start being a man again. Sorry, lesbos, kids need examples of female and male behavior in order to integrate properly.
testosterone — the defining hormone of maleness — drops after a man becomes a father.
um, don't women have testosterone as well?
I would say absence of estrogen is the defining hormone of maleness.
And I'm pretty sure testosterone levels are very situational. Threaten a man's baby and see what happens to his testosterone.
IANABiologist, but I think we all get both testosterone and estrogen, but women get significantly more estrogen and men get significantly more testosterone - that even high testosterone women have less testosterone than low-testosterone men.
You think it goes unnoticed that when you discuss your own self-interest, that is what you call feminism, that you write in the tone of high falutin' social activism, but that you shift to the mocking, comic tone when you discuss the self-interest of men?
Your self-interest is very serious. You want us to constantly be aware of that.
The self-interest of men amuses you.
You think we don't notice?
It's a clever strategy, Althouse. You're very good at it.
Why isn't Althouse covering the fact that two daughters of two famous liberal Democrat Senators - both 51 years old - died on the same day.
Weird.
Nothing better than being a father, adrenaline replaces the testosterone. (Spelling, I know and I don't care). I used to like changing diapers. It's a guy thing in that it's an activity you can get better at each time. Like driving somewhere you've been before and beating your best time.
I guess I'm in real trouble.
We've got a 7-month-old daughter and I handle a majority of her care and feeding, changing, laundry and so on. Different style than my wife, probably more playful and more matter-of-fact.
A cranky horse-kicking cow -- horse-kicking is straight back, whereas nearly all cows kick to the side -- turned me into a one-nutter about 25 years ago ... so I'm dealing from a short deck to begin with.
Now I'm taking care of a baby. The delight of doing that -- third child -- is well worth the putative hormonal cost.
I guess I should tell my choir director he should get ready to move me from the deep-bass section to the tenors.
WV: siste ... my sons finally have one
"It suggests you need to conserve the testosterone you have."
Don't worry, we have mechanisms for making more. That's not me talking, that's Science (caps intentional).
IANABiologist, but I think we all get both testosterone and estrogen, but women get significantly more estrogen and men get significantly more testosterone - that even high testosterone women have less testosterone than low-testosterone men.
Wow! I learned something new. Thanks.
You want to freak out? Google "estrogen" and "shampoo"
" I think diaper changing is one of the more manly baby-related chores..."
Well, how convenient -- that the shit job is the masculine job.
I don't want to actually read the article, because I suspect that reading, like child-rearing, woman's work, and vaccinations, might sap the purity and essence of my precious bodily fluids. Can one of you babes read it for me, and confirm that they're not confusing cause and effect?
It seems more likely that high-testosterone males would be less likely to change diapers, than the other way around. And I have about as much confidence in the rigorous scientific method of psychologists and social scientists as I do in that of climatologists.
Sounds like the Gray Lady wants all the metrosexuals out there to feel good about themselves.
rcocean said...
Why isn't Althouse covering the fact that two daughters of two famous liberal Democrat Senators - both 51 years old - died on the same day.
Weird.
More importantly, why isn't Althouse making note of the fact that today is Constitution Day and that, exactly 75 years after the Constitution was signed, on the bloodiest day on our soil, 3000 Americans fell at Antietam in a war where Constitutional issues were paramount?
PS For that matter, why no post about Constitution Day?
And you, a conlawprof.
I'd rather write about Kennedy and Mondale then Cat poo but maybe Althouse thinks Cat poo is a ratings draw.
I can't deny that people Love pets and Gender differences.
Testosterone is a pernicious hormone. It makes you shiftless and unreliable, unreasonably aggressive, and eventually takes your hair. Also kills you faster, makes you gain weight, and grows hair in unsightly places, like the ear. I'd say it's good to drain a little off by taking care of little ones.
More gibberish from the NYT. Yeah, sure your testosterone drops but post toddler stage it comes back, unless you're a pussy.
When I was in college I saw an interesting study. The scientists were measuring men and their reactions to a crying baby. They wanted to see if there was any correleation to political beliefs and baby care.
What they found out surprised them.
Men who were traditional in regard to sex roles were far more likely to touch the baby, talk to the baby, and try to make the baby stop crying.
Men who were feminist in regard to sex roles were far more likely to leave the baby alone.
my theory: feminism seeks equality by attacking patriarchy. But instead of equality, what they get is diminished patriarchy (i.e. diminished fatherhood).
I wonder if a testosterone level test done on Mormon plural marriage husbands would have different results? If you have to service a number of wives a guy would need a pretty high level of testosterone to keep up with his marital duties.
I told my wife kids are fine and I'll make the money and if need be die for them but I don't do poop diapers. I'm old school that way.
Juggling with the baby to make her lose fear is the manliest activity beside playing the Lion King, raising her in the air for all to see.
I never minded changing diapers, though my wife and I split the task about evenly. It was a challenge to hold my breath for the length of time it took to get through the messy part.
I would say absence of estrogen is the defining hormone of maleness?
A man without estrogen is called a Neanderthal
Testosterone is overrated.
And Testosterone. People love to talk about it.
From the article:Today’s Generations X and Y dads are closer in spirit to Will Arnett in the new NBC situation comedy “Up All Night”— potty-mouthed guys in pocket T-shirts and stubble. They exchange bro-hugs with their children and dream of someday outshredding them on the snowboard slopes. Overgrown boys themselves, they may not feel ready for the responsibilities of co-parenting, but they feel obligated to fake it mightily.
Only if they are complete dorks. Men who take fatherhood, or manhood in general, seriously don't act like Judd Apatow characters.
That, in fact, was a point that the study’s authors emphasized: a dip in testosterone does not mean a man is less virile. Rather, it seems to be nature’s way of slightly adjusting impulses, to make him less likely to stray once he has a family to look after, and more likely to focus on the tasks at hand.
This might actually make some sense, if this is nature's way of encouraging monogamy for early childhood by controlling testosterone levels. All for the benefit of the species. Evolutionary psychology for the win.
Yeah, speculate, because nothing says science like making snarky statements about something you have negative data for.
Something that directly affects men and health? Sure, yuk it up and mock it.
Something that might marginally affect women? Jump on it like Nancy Grace on a suspected wife abuser.
I must be missing something-
A blonde female liberal law professor from Madison lecturing the masses on conservative testosterone.
think deeply
I have an ex in-law who always thought there was too much testosterone around. She advocated that all males should have one nut removed. Except the Marines, who need both of them for obvious reasons.
Why isn't Althouse covering the fact that two daughters of two famous liberal Democrat Senators - both 51 years old - died on the same day.
Because no one really cares.
So the logical scientific conclusion for mothers who want their big man back blasting double barrel testosterone bombs-away is to tell the father that the child isn’t his.
it's nothing a few push ups wouldn't solve.
All this shows is the chickification of the culture, not that kids cause a drop of testosterone in men.
The guys in my mom's family -- guys who have fathered 8 and 9 and, in one case, 13 kids -- didn't all of a sudden turn into Obamaized metrosexuals.
Saint Croix said...
my theory: feminism seeks equality by attacking patriarchy. But instead of equality, what they get is diminished patriarchy (i.e. diminished fatherhood).
Which is to say that the final triumph of feminism would mean the end of civilization. No patriarchy, no civilization. Burns feminists up, those that have the brains to see the connection, but diminished fatherhood means the next generation of men will be feral and eventually a descent into chaos is inescapable. Not that that stops them in their enraged pursuit of equality.
It would be more macho to act like you have plenty to spare.
Boy, that word is sure coming up a lot, all of a sudden. Almost like someone had a premonition or something about what was needed - or was going to happen or be needed - to get us out of this mess, huh?
Naw. When that idea got started, back in 2005, "macho" was a bad word. Later, even Ann I'm-A-Feminist Althouse used to mock it. But now she's writing posts about men trying to get it, or keep it, or exude it, like it's a good thing. Now the question isn't if we need machismo but "Is Rick Perry Too Macho?"
Who'dathunkit?
Certainly not a black guy from South Central,...
“Most women set out to try to change a man, and when they have changed him they do not like him.” - Marlene Dietrich
Who are you calling unmanly, pilgrim?
It better not be John Wayne, one of the 3 Godfathers.
@Crack
I hate to say it, but a certain song back in the '70's gave "macho" a bad name.....not that there's anything wrong with that-
Isn't a new father just interacting with women more?
Browndog,
I hate to say it, but a certain song back in the '70's gave "macho" a bad name.....not that there's anything wrong with that
Don't look at me - look at Ann - that shit's her little hobby horse.
I knew what a man was before, after, and since she and her friends tried to fuck it up. Except in some quarters (mine) they pretty much succeeded, too. Look around:
How many men today do you seriously respect as "men"?
Their voices are too high, their bodies too soft, and their ideas too weak. You can even see it online - most don't adhere to the truth as their code for life - gay and straight are chasing pussy or trying to get it's approval. That's why I come off as so hardcore - I adhere to the truth and, as everyone SHOULD know, it's not negotiable. Not because I don't want it to be, but because it isn't, no matter what I or anybody else wants.
So, like I said, blame Ann:
She's the "feminist" around here,...
BTW - She's also one of the ones who couldn't see through this. All the more reason to abandon whatever forces produce such gullibility and ignorance, that's for sure,...
It's easier for some "women" to achieve their goal of becoming a man by lowering the bar.
When a man's first child is born, a part of him leaves and goes into the child. We can feel that.
So we become nurturing and less competitive.
By our creator's design or by Darwin's trick the testosterone levels cooperate.
Believe me it is not caused by domestic chores.
And the next 20 years both parents are enabled to do everything for the little monsters, which is a mental illness of a sort as measured by how we feel about small children after 40 or so.
We went to the first T-Ball game for a grandson today. At age 5 and 6 they are bewildered but loyally "Try hard!"
I am the designated photographer.
Ann Althouse carefully neglects to note that the observation that a man is "scientifically less manly" because of less testosterone was made by one "Robert Fahey, an online auto salesman in Burlington, Mass."
I just betcha, given his occupation, that Mr. Fahey isn't a scientist.
And I double down that no scientist would ever equate testosterone level with so subjective a quality as "manliness."
So here we have an exceptionally lame New York Times thumbsucker being used by Althouse as a springboard for a pile of foamy blather about "manliness," speciously binding an unquantifiable quality of male character to the quantity of a hormone.
No post cries out for the "Lameness" tag more than this Althouse honker.
(I'm writing this at a laundromat in Lodi, New Jersey. Also here are four young Mexican guys who are doing their laundry together. To have the cojones to leave everything behind, cross into the country illegally to an uncertain future, and to cheerfully work like a dog to stay here -- that's a kind of manliness you can't quantify by measuring testosterone levels.)
Two huge guys at my gym were talking about the testosterone prescriptions they get from their doctor so they can be huge.
These are straight guys and it isn't because they have HIV.
I go to a straight gym because I hate being around other gays. And going to a gym where there is another gay makes me a little sick.
They were talking about the right spot on the stomach or shoulder to put it.
Weird.
To have the cojones to leave everything behind, cross into the country illegally to an uncertain future, and to cheerfully work like a dog to stay here -- that's a kind of manliness you can't quantify by measuring testosterone levels.)
Scott -- without knowing it you swerved into a core truth regarding immigration from central Mexico: it is a rite of passage. Young men se mojan ('wetback' themselves) precisely in order to demonstrate their manliness, and it makes them substantially more marriageable when they return home, which most of them do.
It's been that way for at least 20 or 25 years in central Mexico, but I can't speak for the northwestern Mexicans heading to California and Arizona. The northwest has been bandito country for well over 300 years and their culture is very different than that of the central regions.
I always tested out as low in testosterone. It didn't seem to make much difference.
Ha, Titus is homophobic, but really for real. Not like the kind of homophobic that people call you for disagreeing about politics, but a genuine visceral homophobia. It's like going home to your wife after a night of poker at the He Man Woman Hater's Club.
Just go straight, dude.
Tits
Oh that plateau of manliness - yea, that's just a landing on the down staircase. The next one is where you need permission to stop for a beer with your friends, then the bottom floor where you start calling her "Mommie". Enjoy
Have they ever tested the correlation between testosterone levels and reading blogs?
I always feel a little less manly after spending time reading comments and posts, and responding with comments makes me feel even less manly.
What we need is some hard scientific data so I don't have to depend on my self-narrative.
There, now even just writing that last sentence makes me feel entirely not quite as manly as I was just a 1/2 hour ago.
Meanwhile, writing in general for other tasks fills me with vim and vigor.
"It seems more likely that high-testosterone males would be less likely to change diapers, than the other way around"
Ah. ;-)
He tried to excuse himself from the "messy" ones when I was still in hormone hell. I let him live, but it was a near thing.
No one wants to do the messy ones and nothing about being female makes them less gross. So whoever gets out of it has definitely asserted him or herself.
(I did end up having to do the puke, though.)
We dealt with cat poo during pregnancies by not having a litter box. The damn cat went out to shit. Problem solved.
My grandfather was a real man. My father is a real man. I hope I can be even close to as good as both of them were.
Too much testosterone, at first, causes acne.
And, then, later, early baldness.
Then, take menopause. I saw it as the "pause" that refreshes. And, the best part was no longer being a slave to my eggs.
Did you take any science courses?
I don't like being around other gay men. What can I say. They make my skin crawl. And, for the most part, they are fucking bitches
"They make my skin crawl..."
That's an odd statement. I wonder if it's honest, or if you're just trying to get a reaction.
It doesn't make my skin crawl to be around either men or women of either orientation, in any setting that I can think of, unless they're particularly creepy. Your comment seems to reveal a sociopathy. And it doesn't seem to fit the rest of the persona that you've created here.
I'm calling bullshit, Titus.
I haven't read the article, but does it say anything about sleep deprivation? The one thing I've disliked the most about having kids is the sleep deprivation. I bet lower testosterone is a by-product of sleep deprivation.
It's not baby chores that depletes testosterone, it's buying a minivan.
"They strip you down, hose you off & throw you out of coolville"
-Some comedian I heard
I never made goo-goo talk when my kids were babies. Now, my daughter talks like a truck driver, but I'm a MAN!
We even have our own theme song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Y0I91rubg
I always enjoyed changing diapers. And I guess I must have changed, I dunno, hundreds...thousands?
When you're out of the house all day working you have to get time with your children when you have the opportunity. In the evenings that means feeding and bathing and diapering, tucking them into bed. And by that time mom needs a break too.
I never thought it was particularly manly or not as I recall, but I don't remember that being a big fat issue either.
Tell us something we didn't already know: men have always tweaked each other over becoming "domesticated" after marriage and fatherhood. What has changed is the definition of manhood, because, despite the teasing, nobody back then really considered the fathers among us as any less manly when they skipped a night with the boys for a daughter's piano recital. There was in our culture an added and essential element of masculinity beyond mere virility that is self-sacrifice. Real men were more then testosterone. Real men suffered and got battered for the things and people they loved. If you didn't "man up" and take the hit for those you loved, you would always be callow and undependable, a coward and a boy, no matter your conquest count.
That's why movies like "It's A Wonderful Life" and "On the Waterfront" were such potent and iconic explorations of manhood: Marlon Brando was more a Man when he was being beaten to a pulp dockside than he could ever be with a stick of butter in his hands, and his audience at the time knew it. We've lost that now and so this study means more to people today whose only measure of masculinity is sexual performance than it ever would have meant in the past. Before we would have shrugged off a study like this while today our perpetually immature man-children fret and ponder in an endless stream of blog-posts.
Bart Hall, thank you for your fascinating comment!
Wait...why would you have a cat to begin with?
DADvocate --
"I never made goo-goo talk when my kids were babies."
Rabbiting off of that:
When my brother's son was maybe two, my brother used to think it was cute as hell to Elmer Fud the kid.
Grated my nerves.
After one particularly bad one, I calmly looked at him and said "How long were you in remedial speech?"
Six friggin' years and he *hated* it.
Not one goo-goo allowed in his house afterward. His son still Elmer Fud's his r's though.
Similarly, having a child make women significantly less feminine.
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