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१४९ टिप्पण्या:
I could be way out of line here, but I don't think Jefferson would have approved of this.
Nice takedowns by the Park Police. That was not a chokehold as evidenced that he remained living. I do wonder what the Madison rebels would think if they got arrested that way.
Look, I'm pretty hardcore about free speech, but these guys are just plain jackasses. I visited DC a few weeks ago, and found the monuments, and contemplation of what they stood for, awesome in the truest sense of the world. There were signs all around calling for "Quiet Respect", and, despite crowds which included small children, most people were giving it. The visit to me was about contemplating everything that happened in our amazing nation.
If a bunch of jackasses were dancing and flailing about in that closed and small space, much less shouting like these jerks, I would certainly feel that my rights to enjoy and experience our nations histories had been taken from me. If they want to dance or demonstrate or whatever, there's acres of grass around the monuments. They have no right to steal the experience from everyone else who wants to act like an adult.
- Lyssa
Conduct unbecoming an officer.
lyssa, I think this Jefferson quote is apropos:
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty, than those attending too small a degree of it.
I'm with lyssa. Too many idiots around looking for you-tube fame.
How far are they separated from Kevin Bacon?
You know, some people deserve the beating they get. This serves as a fine example.
And I'd say there are too many cops who are eager to give them their fame.
If being an asshole is going to be a sufficient basis for arrest, the jails are gonna be full of Althouse commenters.
Dance In Front Of The Judge, Idiots
If a cop can't or won't specify the statute under which he's threatening to arrest you, and then feels free to administer a beat-down, then I'd say that's a pretty good start toward a police state.
We've moved from "the rule of law" to "the rule of my personal whims."
No need to describe what comes of that.
Chip,
I tend to agree with Lyssa. This isn't about "attending too much liberty", it was jackassery. I am not inclined to defend the police in these type matters but I believe a wide gray boundary was crossed.
It's stupid stunts like this that put Barnum & Bailey's right ahead of George Mason University as the most libertarian college.
Oh, and very well put, lyssa.
Why do these protesters refuse to accept that they can't just do whatever they want to! They're in the sacred Jefferson Monument after all, not some national space dedicated to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
He shared his house with his wife and his slave lover but you cant dance in his monument
Iwould rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty, than those attending too small a degree of it.
unless we are talking of church leaders pointing his double speach about slavery.because in taht case he woulb build a wall between church and state
Best line, "You can not stop them from doing things that comes natural to people."
I guess they'll be fucking in front of Jefferson next?
Two other thoughts:
One, they act all tough until the cops take them down - then they whine like babies about bad shoulders, saying "ouch it hurts." My response to that is man-up if you're gonna do something you KNOW is gonna get you arrested. The take-downs while not pretty were perfectly executed and are used by pretty much all police departments in the US.
Second, I just have to point out that dancing in the Jefferson Memorial is to political protesting as putting a crucifix in piss is to art.
lyssa, I think this Jefferson quote is apropos:
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty, than those attending too small a degree of it.
Meh, I would generally agree with you, but this isn't an inconvience, it's a theft. The monuments are a lot more like museums or churches than they are like parks or capital buildings. Would you be OK if they were flailing about and screaming in the Smithsonian while you were trying to experience the Evolution of Man? (Which, by the way, was a fantastic exhibit.)
If they have something to say, great, DC is full of places to say it. The area surrounding the Jefferson Monument is wide-open. This was about making a scene, not expression, and they were too immature to give a damn about the fact that their actions impact others.
- Lyssa
(BTW, I don't know a lot about police procedure, but I'd bet that there are really good reasons why they don't quote laws and statutes to people who are being arrested. Police aren't lawyers, and the exact statutes that apply are often far more complex than most people understand. They probably should have said something more concrete, like "disturbing the peace" (which they clearly were doing), but I don't think police ever cite specific statutes.)
Are these people "terrorists"?
I think so. Their actions are those of asymmetrical warfare.
Good that they are taken down.
If we elect Newt as the next President, perhaps he'll initiate a sensible rule allowing police to take these protesters outside, line them up against the exterior of the Jefferson Monument, and summarily shoot them in the head.
Romney would probably go for that too.
Plus, while Newt would probably issue the execution decree with a scowl, Romney would issue it with a bright brimming smile.
"If we elect Newt as the next President, perhaps he'll initiate a sensible rule allowing police to take these protesters outside, line them up against the exterior of the Jefferson Monument, and summarily shoot them in the head.
Romney would probably go for that too.
Plus, while Newt would probably issue the execution decree with a scowl, Romney would issue it with a bright brimming smile."
I'm pretty sure that neither Newt nor Romney are socialists so that doesn't seem very plausible to me.
No one's brought it up yet here, but since I argued pretty strongly in support of the decision, I'll go ahead and pre-refute the comparison to Snyder v. Phelps.
Phelps' klan, to the best of my understanding, have their protests at a public spot nearby the funeral- not actually at the gravesite or somewhere similar. Recall that Mr. Snyder did not see the protesters at all during his heroic son's funeral; he saw them on the news later on. If police were arresting Phelps-es for disturbing the peace or similar actually at the funeral where people were trying to mourn and eulogize, that would be OK with me.
- Lyssa
There was a funeral going on at the Jefferson Memorial? I missed that part.
Never mind, then. Respect should be granted to the dead and their mourners.
Chip S.- was your last post a response to me? If it was, I did not understand your point at all.
"Never mind, then. Respect should be granted to the dead and their mourners."
There was a day, sadly no more. I blame the 60s . . .
lyssa, You seemed to be equating arresting people for disturbing the peace at a burial with cracking peoples' heads for dancing at a public memorial to the country's foremost libertarian, in terms of their justification. I see a big difference.
I try to imagine how TJ would come down on this dispute, and I simply can't see him agreeing with you and most of the others here.
Hell, I'll be happy if people wind up dancing on my grave some day, if they're doing it to celebrate freedom. If they piss on it, well, not so great. But I'd think Jefferson would see the cops as the pissers here, not the dancers.
"On May 17, 2011, the D.C. Circuit "affirmed there is no constitutional right to dance at the Jefferson Memorial,..."
Fellow citizens. A law was affirmed, and I don't like that law. Let's get together and break the law!
You don't understand! We're young and white! You can't arrest us for violating a law we didn't bother to read first!
"This is a police action!". "I am a meat popsicle."
It takes real talent to play the race card here, Moose. Congratulations.
Never mind, then. Respect should be granted to the dead and their mourners.
Respect should also be granted to the living. Causing a scene with what appears to be the intention of disturbing others is not respectful.
You seemed to be equating arresting people for disturbing the peace at a burial with cracking peoples' heads for dancing at a public memorial to the country's foremost libertarian, in terms of their justification.
No, I don't. I specifically explained why one couldn't make the comparison between 2 situations, one of which involved a funeral. Jeeze.
I did, however, compare the monument to a museum or church, which is appropriate, and ask you a specific question about that comparison.
But, if you must continue comparing funerals, I'll add that you may be fine with people dancing on your grave, but do your dancing friends give a crap about the folks mourning their loved ones in a less disruptive manner a few feet away? They'd be pretty terrible people if they don't.
- Lyssa
This unfolded last weekend. It appears that the courts have already ruled that it is illegal to dance at the memorial and that police can arrest those who choose to dance. This group of nutjobs (note the code pink t-shirt on the guy) decided that court decisions don't apply to them.
They were warned what would happen. I have no sympathy for them, including the body slams to the ground. Cops have to restrain you, and if you resist--even by standing still--you may get injured.
The only two quibbles I have with how the police handled it are that they didn't cite the statute that the dancers were violating and, much more importantly, the comment by the officer that indicated people need a permit to film.
Footloose II.
My view, it's a matter of context. And judgement.
Something severely lacking at the Wisconsin Capitol.....just sayin'
Mary Beth, As soon as you can direct me to the constitutional provision guaranteeing the right not to be disturbed by what other people do within earshot, I'll give your point very careful consideration.
OTOH, there's the First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Now, I do understand that this is a restriction on the Congress, and I do not claim to know the fine points of the legal status of the District of Columbia, but the general thrust of the framers' intent seems clear enough.
OK, lyssa, what did you mean by this:
If police were arresting Phelps-es for disturbing the peace or similar actually at the funeral where people were trying to mourn and eulogize, that would be OK with me.
I mean, jeez.
It's on the Internet now. Where did the cops take those they put in the elevator? Since there's no "citation." All they are doing are "holding" people against their will.
I gather 50-miles away from calling a lawyer?
Dancing did not break out.
But it's not a crime, either.
Exactly where's the judge? On vacation. Of course. It's a holiday weekend.
You know, maybe, the homeless will show up and dance? FREE MEALS. FREE WARM BED. No downside.
It doesn't even make sense in terms of crowd control.
Obama must be so proud!
The Revolution Will Not Be Choreographed.
I have no sympathy for people who go about trying to challenge law enforcement this way.
If a law is a bad law, and I'm not saying one way or the other, there are ways of challenging them. I do not favor the self-indulgent, unnecessary, melodramatic display.
I guess that puts me in the lovely Lissa camp.
@chips - sorry. They weren't all white?
Adam Kokesh is an attention whore who latched onto this Gravely Important Issue, protecting the right of silly people to make asses of themselves in public places, so that he could get more airtime for his goatee and Marine hat (He was a Marine, dontcha know!!1)
This is another one of those situations where I hate everyone involved— Adam "I Was A Real, Live Marine, Don't Forget!" Kokesh, the police, Code Pink, Reason Magazine, the courts.
It's this kind of college sophomore theatrical agitprop object lessons (Don't oppress our right to dance at National Monuments, Bro!) that cloud legitimate issues like State power, police oppression, free speech and freedom in general, with irritating publicity stunts enacted by the professionally aggrieved.
Hey, but keep stickin' it to "the Man", Kokesh. You have that "absolute moral authority" thing (he was a Marine!) going on, and you have much more attractive biceps, and much cooler facial hair, than Cindy Sheehan ever did.
"Mary Beth, As soon as you can direct me to the constitutional provision guaranteeing the right not to be disturbed by what other people do within earshot, I'll give your point very careful consideration."
Acting like a complete asshole and attention whore and ruining everyone elses's day is a Natural Right!
Chip S., you said the dead and mourners deserve respect. I said the living do too. You are trying to argue with me about something that I did not say.
Give that careful consideration.
Oy. Now the Jefferson Memorial is a "church." He's rolling in his grave, says I.
It's not a museum, either!
And, nearby, FDR seated in a wheelchair, just shows you "who took over our parks!" FDR rolls in his grave, now, as well.
GOOD FOR CELL PHONES. And, for people who have the ability to watch the "long story" ... It doesn't belong to the cops. And, it doesn't belong to the idiots who go into mourning when they visit the Jefferson Memorial. Which is open to the public.
Heck, I've seen people holding hands and kissing ... while they walk together at the Norton Simon.
IF the cops thought that the "dancers" were out of line ... I think this has opened the space to homeless folk. Who will be much more cooperative when they get arrested. Knowing they'll be fed for the whole weekend. And, that beds will be provided.
Oh, yeah. Plus, at some point, free phone calls to the ACLU lawyers. It's a 24/7 "service" I am sure.
Do these folks, who got arrested, get dragged in front of some clown? You know. Like SUMI. Or Shirley Abrhamson. Who now see into the distance that their career paths are cut short?
Like Kloppy's. (Who couldn't collect enough dimes to fight on her own.)
I'm glad America has people in it who are willing to "dance" when the cops say "no dancing."
Which reminds me. Orthodox rabbis forbid dancing, too. (Screwing, on the other hand, is an obligation of marriage.) Nice.
it was jackassery.
If we arrested people for such, the entire New York Yankees team and front office would be in custody.
(Apologies to Trooper)
Ah, so now you need a "permit to film." But this is "cell-phoned. And, digital." Who would you issue the permit to? CBS? (They just got almost arrested for going into Weiner's office.)
Going VIRAL is not the same thing as making movies. Different industries, I tell ya.
Just so I understand, everybody here is pretty hardcore about free speech except in cases involving dancing, music, rudeness, jackassery, idiocy, whining, public monuments, white people, people who were warned, nutjobbery, self-indulgence, melodrama, goatees, biceps, or Marine caps.
Got it.
Freespeechcesspool.com, indeed.
Its amazing how people choose to waste their energies and passion on some of the most insignificant bs imaginable.
While our government is drowning us in debt.
I think the dancers should be arrested, and given large fines. Also the cops should be fired. Everyone who was peaceful there should get a big tax credit and a donut. Then none of this nonsense will happen again. Anyone disagree?
And Lincolntf pops in for a late thread win! Thanks, I appreciated the laugh.
Free donuts? You know, I'm not so sure you can eat at the Jefferson Memorial. Because if you could, there would be vendors.
Vendors, of course, would need permits.
The parks department could make money.
Then, they could hire more policemen. Given the funny helmets, I suspect the policemen ride bicycles.
You want bicycle riders at your monuments?
If I was there I'd have just started dancing. It feels like it was the right thing to do.
At least I would'a shook my behind. At 72, my other parts aren't so graceful at moving, anymore.
Are there signs "no singing," too? How about the YMCA song?
Here? An amazing demonstration from the left that they just don't get it. Bunch of prudes.
There hasn't been so much roll reversal since Nixon got elected.
An ass-kicking society is a polite society.
Sorry - not impressed by the police but even less impressed by the dumb sh*t kids. The children were simply asking for it...
Free speech my you know what..
These morons are intoxicated with entitlement.
A bunch of self absorbed narcissistic assholes with no respect for anyone other than themselves. Remind you of anyone?
They don't give a fuck about free speech, other than in how it allows them to stage their childish games. Proving what... that the MAN is a MF'er, who just wants to take you down.
It was very well coordinated and choreographed, so kudos to the producer. Hater of America and our places of honor. Something those shits have never known and never will.
Although I wish they would be respectful and not dance there, I do find the police behavior to be much more embarrassing to my American sensibilities. I mean, If you had to choose, which one would you like to see a lot more of at our monuments.
"Officer may I suggest using your nightstick?"
They got off easy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XWijwmvGU4
If it became normal for people to dance at the monuments (might be nice), I would still take my family there, but if they had daily police beatings and arrests, I don't think I would be putting that on the itinerary.
Which do you want to have more of in your country: dancing (even disrespectful dancing) or police violence and heavy handed control?
Second thoughts.
In, I think, 1969, my friend and I at 0 dark thirty visited the Lincoln Memorial. My friend did a very respectful climb up into Lincoln's lap and sat himself upon said's knee. All in good, and drunken fun. No disrespect intended nor implied. But thus, we were found by the Park Police. Taken away, backgrounds checked, and released, no harm no foul. Though now, I see, it was foul.
Considering the hate that the Park Police must naturally have for those who take advantage of our freedoms, I admire their restraint, and respect them for their professionalism.
If this is "America" why is it there are laws against drinking adult beverages in public?
Why is it there are laws against public nudity?
Why cant I walk my dogs w/o a leash?
America is soooo oppressive!!!
Chip S. said...Now, I do understand that [the First Amendment] is a restriction on the Congress, and I do not claim to know the fine points of the legal status of the District of Columbia, but the general thrust of the framers' intent seems clear enough.
What governed in this case wasn’t the “general thrust of the framers’ intent” as you construe it, but the specific application of the First Amendment and relevant federal statutes as construed by two federal courts. You may find it inconvenient to read the circuit court’s ruling, just as those dancing monkeys found it inconvenient to obey that ruling, but it is nonetheless a rule of law.
This was about making a scene, not expression, and they were too immature to give a damn about the fact that their actions impact others.
Ahh - maturity and the impact on others - two arguments I make, repeatedly, when defending positions here, whether the topic is NewAge, divorce, or pretty much anything else.
Give it up, lyssa, it'll never work.
Man, it's not just wiener's wiener that really hooks to da' left ... It's the whole left, now. All "a-twitter" at one man's daring to dance. Because da' fed judges said "no dancing."
Ain't that a hoot?
Hope a lot of homeless in DC show up. And, dance. Whether or not anyone with a cell phone "catches this." It's free indoor living. By "statute" at da' statue. By the flag pole.
Don't think the left will win.
They can't "regulate this" anymore than the Commerce Clause can force you to decide if you want to "earn less" to avoid being forced to carry insurance.
Wanna dance?
Is it just me, but is the "kissing bandit" Medea Benjamin??
If so the other "we're in love" kissing bandit ain't her hubby Kevin Danaher.
Otherwise, I could care less about these half-hearted hippies. And why is it the rough and tumble Standers-Up-To-Da-Man always cry when it gets a bit rough..."Oh my shoulder" or "Don't tase me bro"???
Third thoughts. Let's say I am for total freedom of sexual expression. And me, and my compatriot (I should be so lucky) decided to have intercourse on the steps of the Supreme Court. Is that protected expression? I am, after all, protesting. In todays world, isn't that all that matters. That I, personally, have a grievance.
How the fuck did Scientology ever become anointed as a religion by the IRS. Explain that one to me.
Yeah, I can digress.
But it is all connected, in some weird bullshit way.
Go on, guys, invite the homeless to dance. And pretty soon Jefferson will smell like piss. But he'd want it that way, right? Because he was so into your juvenile application of "happiness".
And you know what goes great with national monuments? TAGGING! Oh man, there's no end to where hippie displays of "freedom" can go!
Unless we say so - and I think we just did.
Lump it.
Two issues here.
The first is the conduct of the "protesters." It's disrespectful to others at the memorial, provocative and inflammatory and generally not acceptable. It should not be permitted, and the government is correct to exclude and/or arrest these people.
The second issue is the manner of the arrest. Properly trained American police have long since developed techniques to deal with idiots like this without bashing and throwing them around. Well trained and well led police can deal with these events without the level of violence present here, and without venting their personal anger via violence.
I blame Bush. Obama inherited this problem.
I don't think is irrational to say that a memorial hall is not a dump/dance hall!!
If you don't like it - tough!
KC, you're 100% correct. That was Ms. Code Pink herself. This was a planned event aimed at demonstrating something or other---maybe raising the consciousness of those rubes who just wanted to visit the monument with their families. Who knows?
Luther,
How the fuck did Scientology ever become anointed as a religion by the IRS. Explain that one to me.
That's a deal clouded in secrecy - because, of course, few find that important enough to find out. Even after the deaths, kidnappings, etc. Tom Cruise jumping on Oprah's couch is all anybody sees.
And she gets applauded for it.
I'm still convinced - 100% - that if we cracked the cults open, we'd get to the bottom of at least half of the fraud in this country. It would be just like my divorce:
Pull that string, and the whole ugly fucking game unravels,...
That should've read "shrouded in secrecy"...
oh jeeze don't make me have to defend those code pink loons who definitely deserve a beatdown for oh so many reasons. i guess maybe i'm just out-of-the-loop when it comes to d.c. politics or something but when the hell did dancing in monuments become a big legal issue?!? i mean lord knows i would personally smack medea benjamin upside the head if i were to run into her just about anywhere and i sure am not hot to see her slow dance with that creepy bf of hers, but when did it become against the law for horrible people to sway together in public? i usually laugh at hysterical cries of 'police state! but c'mon guys, what the fuck is going on here? i mean...really.
"what the fuck is going on here? i mean...really."
Maybe just respect. That some of us are tired of the total lack of same from the fucking progressives and liberals to every institution that some, most maybe I hope, in this country hold dear. Maybe just a matter of manners, which I've never met a leftist who gave a shit about such. So passe.
Crack. Clouded works too.
But can we shrink that shroud? I was, and am, befuddled by that decision. Go there, find out how. Who was involved, who made the decision. That's something real.
Various thoughts...
> The court ruled there is no constitutional right to dance at a national monument. From that, it does not follow that dancing at a monument is, or ought to be, illegal.
> Even if you think this is a free speech issue, what about "time, manner and place" restrictions?
> When the first group of late-night dancers were stopped, I wondered what would have happened if the police had simply ignored it. I still wonder. Now it's reached the point that won't work.
"And you know what goes great with national monuments? TAGGING! Oh man, there's no end to where hippie displays of "freedom" can go! "
That nails it, I think. I mean, why the fuck not. A clit ring, a simple dance, or a spray can. All about 'freedom'.
WV- gaingera... gonorrhea for the masses... freedom!
Luther, Luther, Luther.
"Maybe just a matter of manners,.."
So, to clarify this for me, if someone behaves improperly in public, based upon manners decided by you, (the fuzz, any random?) They need to be aggressively hammered to the ground, put in cuffs and hauled off to the police station, to be charged or not be charged with something (rudeness? violation of manners protocol? not respecting YOUR space?) at some later date. Got it.
You have it all wrong, my friend. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness does not include any inference to not be bothered by assholes. Go pursue happiness. Stop trying to shit on someone else in their pursuit.
As far as the big bad police man goes, there's film of him being a dick in another incident. This was all payback. And the payback is going to come full circle on him. I hope he enjoys it.
WV: teisiou: Voucher for a don't taze me bro' moment.
Luther, your proposition (sex on the Supreme Court steps), was responded to, by the Supreme's back in 1880.
It's an interesting case.
Mormons. They believe in polygamy. And, they practiced it. Forced, by the way, to do so only in Utah.
Some smart ass thought they'd make a Federal case. Charging that they had "freedom of religion."
Nope. You can't burn your wife on a funeral pyre, either. Says the "decision."
So, only if you're an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, can you make a to-do about male and female dancing. Which is forbidden.
You know, I don't want cops thinking they can shoot citizens, just because they carry guns. And, I don't want them tazing random people, either.
Nor do I care who is involved in this one. The law's WRONG. Kapish?
It shouldn't take extra special courage to dance with someone you know, at the Jefferson Memorial.
Among other things, the police have no right to tell you "how" to behave as long as you're not naked.
If, however, you decide to go naked, the cops will wrap you in blankets. That they need to do choke holds? I beg your pardon. Not on my dime.
Look what Dupnik just did, just because he carries a badge. (Oh, that raid, too, got caught on video.)
Dupnik still has his badge.
Obama is still in the White House.
And, Weiner's dick is a lifetime achievement award for the overworked congress critter.
Wanna dance?
This has nothing to do with dancing or law, but rather the unrestrained use of police power over the individual's freedom of expression.
It's reached the point where the individual, joining with other individuals, must consider pushing back with equal or greater force, or become wlling vassals of the police state.
I harken to a time you have evidently never known, VD. Your comment not worthy of further response.
Luther,
Let me Help you. Fuck you. Better? Now call the cops. Keep your sanctimony to yourself, sir. Let me guess, you used to hang out with F. Scott Fitzgerald and company. Because America hasn't been what you are implying for a very long time, if it ever was.
And if I want manners, I choose not to go out in public with the rabble. I'll go drop a couple bills in a private establishment. You want something that never was and never will be. The fact that you want police to bust heads to enforce what you think is proper behavior says it all.
WV: scoet:
F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote prose. He was also a scoet.
WV:
Society cuts teens some slack when they act stupid as a jokes and pranks...even when it crosses the line into vandalism. But society does draw a line at grown men and women who just want to mock the police who are keeping a measure of order and insist on being arrested to become stars in a u-tube video. If that was private property, they could easily be arrested for refusing to leave. Because it is a national monument under protection by the Park Police does not make arrest powers for refusing to leave when asked evaporate.
What I'm seeing here, and tell me if I'm wrong. Is that there are no rules. That the individual reigns supreme, so long as they are against 'the man'. I mean, wasn't that the title of this film. And that makes everything okey dokey. Got it.
How old are you, VD? And who the fuck are you to make pronouncements about me, knowing fuck all about who I am or the life I have lived. As I said, no further comment necessary.
Luther,
You're wrong. Glad I could help.
WV: atirumo:
Go to a fine clothier, so he can atirumo betta.
Luther,
You made the suupositional statement about me, I obliged you with the same in kind. You don't like it now?
In fact, I don't like your tone, Mister. You need to get a little more civil in your communications. Act like you have manners, for the sake of everything holy. HAVE YOU NO PROPER UPBRINGING, SIR?
WV: dipsi:
Luther talking in circles and looking a little dipsi.
Where's a cop when you need him? Looks like we could sure use some skull bustin' up in here. Unmannered turds...
WV: utterewn:
Do not utterewn other curse word at me, you ill mannered boor.
I don't think it's a violation of any First Amendment right to require reasonable decorum at national memorials.
At the same time, the cops were assholes. Their actions are indefensible.
First off, this was a Libertarian protest and they came to CELEBRATE Thomas Jefferson not offend him. And Conservatives who enjoy having the police crack heads to raise revenues for an ever growing list of nanny state regulations are going to have to get used to them in the GOP Party. (You'll notice the growing obnoxious Libertarians in the GOP putting pressure on Boehner to get the hell out of Libya and Afghanistan or Ron and Rand Paul putting pressure on the Fed to stop debasing the currency) As for Medya Benjamin the Code Pink whacko, she wasn't even supposed to participate. She just came to observe because she knows Adam Kokesh and as is her nature, got arrested. Adam led this and is a Libertarian and former GOP 2010 candidate for a House seat in New Mexico. The many comments supporting the complete overreaction by the Park Police (even their leaders admit their officers overreacted) shows just how far apart Conservatives and Libertarians are when it comes to small matters of individual choice and liberty. Conservatives as usual, hypocritically talk about liberty until they are morally offended by someone and then demand arrests. The irony is rich here. The first two people were arrested for SILENTLY hugging and slow dancing under the statue of a Libertarian hero for individual rights. They weren't there to bother others obviously, but to SILENTLY protest by moving in a rhythmic motion to see how the police would react. As expected, the police caused the scene by reacting badly and having to physically show who is in control. They were enforcing the recently passed nanny state law stating 'expressive dancing' in the memorial is in the same category with picketing, speech making, and religious ceremonies. This literally means silently bobbing your head rhythmically or doing the Robot is so offensive in a state park to decent Americans that you can get arrested. Libertarians think that is a 1st Amendment overreach and are challenging the law by peaceful protest. Over 3,000 and counting are expected to show up June 4th to dance protest the absurdity of this law. http://tinyurl.com/4xm9pvr I guess Conservatives wish Libertarians should just go away so they can always talk about "Liberty," but have the police always handy when their delicate sensibilities are offended.
If the law is to prevent disruption at the memorial, then which of those groups caused more disruption?
The protesters or the police?
The police could easily have handled things in a better manner. Explicit instructions before each arrest to place your hands behind your back would have been a good start.
Park Police are a joke so it's no surprise they are poorly trained.
Well, I don't think anyone should be dancing on slippery slopes. It's very dangerous....Of course, the cops acted like assholes. That's their job. They're paid to be blunt instruments of force. One can argue constitutional issues in a court of law, but it is inadvisable to do so in a public confrontation with a cop. If they lose their temper, it will go much harder on you than it it will on them. And they nearly always lose their temper if you defy their authority. That's the way cops are. The presence of all those cams, probably moderated the cops' behavior.....Does anyone in the world think that Jefferson Monument will be a better place if they allow Disco Night on Wednesdays.
Amen, John. Fuck you, J. Grow a pair, William.
WV: sausses:
sausses for the goose is sausses for the gander.
Cops can't deal with people who think differently than they do. All their lives they've dreamed of being the dominant male. Except they never could because they got all C minuses and D pluses in high school. Then they join the police force and now they get to carry guns and get to beat people up.
I read somewhere that cop IQs are about 102. Watching the Thomas Jefferson video that seems kind of high to me.
Thomas Jefferson owned slaves; of course he would approve of this.
Would he have let his slaves dance around Monticello like this? I don't think so.
Gene,
Cops can't deal with people who think differently than they do. All their lives they've dreamed of being the dominant male. Except they never could because they got all C minuses and D pluses in high school. Then they join the police force and now they get to carry guns and get to beat people up.
Where do you people get this shit from? My best friend from High School is a cop - plus two other friends - and, by far, he's a nicer guy than most. Always has been. And he was an A student. (I swear, I'm not just saying that.) He became a cop (as the saying goes) "to protect and to serve."
You remind me of how civilians talk about the military. I served, and know the lies inside-out. If you ask me, it was you who wanted power and never got it. You also probably never gave a damn enough about anyone else to put your life on the line, or to uphold the idea of society.
No one talks like this who has any sense about the world beyond their delusions.
Cockamamie reasoning: "Jefferson owned slaves, so you can't dance around his Memorial."
And, no. You can't paint all people on either side as "fans" here. There's been a pretty good defense put up against the cops doing choke holds.
And, I think it would even be better if the homeless showed up. And, all they had to do was a little dance to get arrested. And, then get free meals and warm beds. Since the homeless dancers would want to get arrested ... it would look worse if the cops did choke holds, first.
That's the part of the video that should have captured your attention. Beefy parks department cops behaving as if democracy didn't exist in America.
The area surrounding the Jefferson Monument is wide-open
Actually, it's wedged between the Tidal Basin, I-395, and another road, and the parking lot is small.
Since they wanted to be arrested as noisily as possible, could the cops be in on it?
I went to DC a couple of Saturdays after 9/11, and there were Morris dancers at the West Front of the Capitol. When they left, there was no one else there but a single policeman on each side of the building.
"These morons are intoxicated with entitlement."
Yeah, how dare anyone be so fucking presumptuous as to think we should actually be able to exercise our freedoms in the nation of the free, (the greatest fucking goddamned fucking nation that ever existed in the universe because we're the freest fucking motherfuckers that ever walked on any planet that has ever existed)?!
What entitled pricks! They should realize we all have to tow the line and bow our heads and immediately obey any order barked at us by our Freedom Assifers.
Jeez...some people.
"Of course, the cops acted like assholes. That's their job. They're paid to be blunt instruments of force."
Words fail. What a tool.
"At the same time, the cops were assholes. Their actions are indefensible."
They were charged with stopping them, how would you have suggested they do it? Do you think debating these morons would have worked? Explaining the law for an hour or so while they continued to break it in front of them?
Arrests are seldom pretty. People - especially narcissistic assholes like these people - rarely just turn around and allow you to cuff them. Of even lead them off without being cuffed.
The police were actually pretty professional. They explained that dancing was illegal and it had to stop and I know they would have loved for that to work - but it did not. (They don't have to quote the statute by the way - no requirement to do so)
While not pretty, the take-downs were perfect and my guess is no one was hurt when they did it.
That's my defense of the cops and it's a pretty good one I think.
These kids, and the idiots defending them, are suffering delusions of grandeur. This isn't protesting.
Society has a small number of rules designed to limit the friction created by 300 million people living in reasonably close proximity. All this event shows is that society doesn't have a good response when people intentionally break those rules. It doesn't make us a police state, it doesn't make the dancing jackasses heroes, and it doesn't make Julius or Cook defenders of liberty.
When the first group of late-night dancers were stopped
So, somebody did this at night and was stopped? That surprises me, I was going to say they should have just gone in the middle of the night. Everytime I've gone at night it's been pretty quiet and I doubt the lone park person who was there would have stopped anything that wasn't destructive...
"When asked what Oberwetter (a past Reason contributor who now works for Facebook) was being charged with, the arresting officer told the other dancers to "shut the fuck up." "
I've read the posts in support of free speech/expression. And I've read the posts in support of the park police. What seems to be missing are park police that have a bit of discretion. Telling a citizen with a question to 'STFU' is jackbooted thuggery. NOT discretion.
I side in this case with the citizens and free expression.
I wonder what the left would be saying if the authorities used the same level of 'discretion' during any of the 'demonstrations' of selfishness on display these past weeks/months in Madison.
Never mind. I have a pretty good idea.
dancing was illegal
Is dancing illegal in DC now? Seriously this just makes me think of footloose.
The area surrounding the Jefferson Monument is wide-open
Actually, it's wedged between the Tidal Basin, I-395, and another road, and the parking lot is small.
There is a huge open spot in front of the steps which would actually be a gorgeous place for a flash mob. That's also the best place to watch the fireworks on the 4th and I hate to break it to you guys, but there are usually people lounged about eating and drinking and with radios celebrating our nations independence. It's terribly disrespectful, they should probably stop that.
There are 50 individual States with Constitutions that have bill of rights provisions. Then there is the Federal Government's area they call The District of Columbia. My own State acted out its rights once, and the Police sent by the District of Columbia guys soon let us know who was boss, and since August 31, 1864 we quit acting snotty at them here in Georgia. So my suspicion is that the traditions started by Sherman's Army that year are still followed on those District of Columbia guys turf. Go start your own Civil War and win it...don't let me stop you. But until you do the basics, quit acting all surprised about asshole armed men kicking your dancing butts.
If I understnd correctly (correct me if I'm wrong) certain kinds of political speech are not allowed in certain areas of national memorials (paraphrasing a fox news report). This is, I think, fairly uncontroversial.
So, to protest that dancing was included as the kind of political speech that is not allowed they .... danced in order to make it a poltical statement of the kind not allowed.
Aren't they just making the point of the ruling they claim to disagree with?
There is a time and a place for everything.
Some people do not understand that a memorial is not a dance hall.
Some people do not understand what solemnity means and because they do not understand, that does NOT means the rest of us have to vow and give into that ignorance.
"Is dancing illegal in DC now? Seriously this just makes me think of footloose."
No, but in that memorial it is evidently. And they court agrees.
The Secret Knowledge: On the Dismantling of American Culture
We were self-taught in the sixties to award ourselves merit for membership in a superior group–irrespective of our group’s accomplishments. We continue to do so, irrespective of accomplishments, individual or communal, having told each other we were special. We learned that all one need do is refrain from trusting anybody over thirty; that all people are alike, and to judge their behavior was “judgmental”; that property is theft. As we did not investigate these assertions or their implications, we could not act upon them and felt no need to do so. For we were the culmination of history, superior to all those misguided who had come before, which is to say all humanity.
By David Mamet
No, but in that memorial it is evidently. And they court agrees.
I thought the court said preventing it wasn't illegal, not that dancing itself was illegal. Or is it only illegal if it is political expression as opposed to say, feeling the beat? What is the actual law?
Kokesh is just getting off on living his life as a Professional Veteran.
"What is the actual law?"
The law is whatever the state's security guards (aka "police") say it is.
As citizens, our duty and privilege is but to obey their directives, immediately, and at all times.
The idea that dancing is "political speech" is dumb. Dancing is conduct, not speech.
And if dancing is political speech to show your displeasure with the ruling of a court of law, then why isn't peeing on the monument to show your displeasure with the Union Victory in the Civil War speech as well?
"Kokesh is just getting off on living his life as a Professional Veteran."
How dare he? He, a veteran, (like you, I assume, Sgt. Ted), who ""served his country to defend our way of life," as all American Yahoos love to proclaim--(despite our having fought in no military engagements since WWII, and few before that, that actually were necessary or in defense of our nation).
How dare he dance in public or organize a protest against the notion that such activity at a public space is prohibited? Doesn't he know his duty is to fight and, if necessary, die to preserve the authority of our masters?
dudes were warned and then they resisted arrest and interfered with the officers. Dancing and not complying with an officer isn't free speech.
One sign of mental illness is the complete lack of any sense of proportion.
Crack,
There are exceptions to certain rules, such as an honest cop working within the more typical den of thieves.
I've never met "two" honest cops. Maybe one, but never two. Because when you put cops together they immediately resort to the pack-of-dog mentality. Even that lone "honest" cop is tainted, complicit in every cop-crime under the sun.
On a more basic level, what type of person is drawn to shaking down the public, hiding behind bushes, and then breaking down doors in the middle of the night to murder a 7-year old girl, or 26-year old Marine?
Cowards, I say. The scum of the earth, I say.
whatever cook. I dont agree with your premise that louts have the right to do whatever they please in public.
"The idea that dancing is 'political speech' is dumb.Dancing is conduct, not speech."
Conduct is also speech. Witness, for example, the conduct of all those who marched and assembled in protests and sat in at segregated lunch counters in the Civil Rights struggles of the early 60s. Or consider flag burning, certainly conduct, which has been deemed protected expression by the Supreme Court.
"And if dancing is political speech to show your displeasure with the ruling of a court of law, then why isn't peeing on the monument to show your displeasure with the Union Victory in the Civil War speech as well?"
Perhaps the argument can be made that it should be. However, one can also point out that peeing on the monument violates laws against indecent exposure; that the uric acid in urine might damage public property; that emission of bodily fluids in public might endanger public health; and so on.
Look, obviously, a crowd that grows too big and becomes rowdy is a potential threat to public safety. But a small group of citizens dancing in a restrained manner is not. There is a difference between lawful public assembly and disturbing the peace or presenting a danger to the public. The police need to use their professional discretion to be able to tell the difference. They should not be, as someone else stated, merely "instruments of blunt force."
The protestors went there to get arrested for defying the courts ruling. They got their wish. Why are they now complaining about acheiving their goal?
Oh and the title of that bit of drama queenery one sided propaganda video; "Adam vs The Man"? What a narcissist douchebag. He is no hero for free expression.
Almost Ali,
I've never met "two" honest cops.
You don't get out enough.
SGT Ted,
Cookie took a position. It's widely known that whatever it's opposite is always the correct choice.
Relax, you won.
"He is no hero for free expression."
Yes, he is. This is how free speech is defended...by people willing and intent upon fighting for it, even if they know their actions will result in their being challenged or even arrested by the authorities.
You seem to want to be an apologist for state authoritarianism.
"Cookie took a position. It's widely known that whatever it's opposite is always the correct choice."
Hahaha!
It's also widely known that "Crack is Wack!"
Hahaha!
Hey, but I kid, I kid.
Thing is, the cops didnt just go on a big tackling, head busting spree. They warned the protestors to stop, leave or be detained for continuing the conduct and were very reasonable. They were even calmy asking the proterstors to comply with being arrested, which the first 3 actually did. but that wasn't enough and was boring video.
The protestors then tried to provoke a stronger response from the police by resisting arrest, so they could film it. Again the police acted professionally and showed restraint and applied the proper force to control the subjects.
These are classic leftist protest tactics to be used for sympathetic propaganda purposes, which is Political Street Theater 101.
I remain unsympathetic to the protestors.
I am not an apologist for the police state. I just refuse to be misled by these drama queens who wre trying to goad the cops into doing something illegal and failing at it, and then having to chutzpah to claim they were oppressed.
Are political rallies or protests allowed where they were dancing and then arrested?
I'm all for classifying what they did as a protest. If other kinds of protest are allowed there then fine. If not then Kokesh can keep dancing all the way to the prison shower (and then some).
"police need to use their professional discretion to be able to tell the difference."
Our legal system, as perverted by lefty ideology, prevents precisely this. One of the great accomplishments of leftism is their ability to first cause problems then decry the result.
First ruin the schools by fighting every decision and preventing any corrective action, then rail that students aren't being taught to read.
First make businesses uncompetitive by driving up costs with the political system, then rail that "capitalism" doesn't produce optimal results.
First legally challenge any discretionary decision making, then rail that police don't use judgement.
It's quite a tactic. You need a stupid audience and a willingness to reveal yourself as an idiot, but leftists somehow manage.
Marshall, you make several broad accusations but provide no specific cites or examples.
Cook,
This isn't a dissertation. If you want the evidece look for posts on the topics.
Anyone paying attention sees this is true. That you choose to ignore the evidence of experience is no surprise to anyone. Ignoring reality is a requirement of leftism. Maybe you have a good reason for this. Maybe you need to do this so you can pretend "you're one of the only patriots posting here", and you need this kind of self-affirmation. I really don't care why.
The simple fact is you're a nut. And there's no point debating anything with nuts.
"This isn't a dissertation. If you want the evidece look for posts on the topics."
Nope. You made the assertions. If you are unwilling or unable to back them up, there's no reason to consider your argument as serious, or even as an argument.
You're a good little leftist Cookie. And good little leftists don't consider thoughts outside their approved worldview.
Luckily your pronouncements on which ideas are to be considered weigh substantially less to the rest of us.
John said...First off, this was a Libertarian protest and they came to CELEBRATE Thomas Jefferson ...
In staging a protest, the protesters put themselves in the wrong. Demonstrations in that space require a permit. They didn't have one. The cops told them to cease. They refused. Libertarian or not, they violated a lawful order from police.
Adam Kokesh, one of the dancers, said they were there "to express our objection to a court ruling from Monday that said dancing was prohibited."
Their protest was explicitly intended to defy that ruling. Whether police used reasonable force when arresting them is a separate question. But the protesters, by their actions, were already violating the law.
The Crack Emcee--You say your friend, the cop, was an A student in high school. Well, good, glad to see someone in your circle inherited some common sense.
As far as my reminding you of how misinformed civilians can be when they about the military. Obviously you know nothing about me because if you did you would know I spent five and a half years in Naval Aviation during the sixties or that at 3:30 today I'm meeting a a local high school student at Starbucks to be interviewed about my service in Vietnamn. You also would have no idea that I spent several hours Wednesday morning being examined by a VA doctor for adverse effects of Agent Orange.
As far as cops being like people in the military, I must say I never saw that. Most of the guys I flew with just went out and did their jobs. Unlike the Jefferson Memorial cops no one felt their day was incomplete if they didn't get to insult, intimidate, or beat down another human being.
As for my supposedly never putting my life on the line for my country, well everyone in every one of our flight crews put his life on the line. We came home in spite of that because we flew so low over the surf that the SAM fire control radar batteries could never get a decent lock on us, which is not to say Victor Charlie wasn't always trying anyway.
"Unlike the Jefferson Memorial cops no one felt their day was incomplete if they didn't get to insult, intimidate, or beat down another human being."
I guess you can summarize events this way if you ignore the initially polite requests for the demonstrators to cease. But it seems appropriate only for those who espouse the "fake but accurate" theory of social commentary.
There's a Jefferson Memorial?
Sarcasm.
(I was under the impression that the Jefferson Memorial is the least visited in DC. It's very inconventient and rather boring, so that would make sense. I'd think the park service would have nude dancers there or something to attract more visitor.)
In a saner world, the police would laugh at a busybody who called them about felonious dancing, and simply shrug off the complaint as the sort of civil dispute that's none of their business. Because in free societies that sort of obnoxious behavior is tolerated.
And then someone back on the scene would register his displeasure with a five-fingered suggestion to the nose of one of these stupid dancers. And the police would shrug off that complaint as the sort of civil dispute that's none of their business. Because in free societies that sort of obnoxious behavior must also be tolerated.
And now we'd have a couple guys with bloody noses and skinned knuckles. Instead of Supreme Court rulings defining exactly where one can legally dance, and police tackling people for improperly gyrating in front of a national monument to limited government power.
This is the dividing line between conservatives and libertarians
(also manifest here)
It's the dividing line between libertarians working with reality and those in search of libertarian utopia.
What's the outcome? Some idiot got exactly what he wanted. It's unclear why I'm supposed to care.
Even at its best policing only works among people operating in good faith. This guy wasn't. If you intentionally drive your car into a concrete wall you don't get to complain your new audio safety warning didn't stop you from doing it.
Protesters, free speech and the police
If that's a response to me I don't understand your point. Other people protest too, some of which are arrested?
What would Disney do?
How come the Jefferson Memorial, which also sees crowds, can't get its act together?
Disney controls crowds well. If they ever force anyone from the park,it goes unseen. While lots of people carry cameras. And, these days even have cameras in their cell phones. Nobody tells ya not to film what you see.
These cops are a terrible hire! Disney just doesn't make such mistakes!
Rope lines? There's are so well done, people stand on them to view an exhibit ... for hours and hours.
I doubt Disney would make a fuss, if singing and dance "broke out" ...
Disney's PROFESSIONAL!
The crap hired by the parks department are not!
Carol_Herman, go blow Adam Kokesh's butthole.
Go look for government's invisible bombs, Obama's birth certificate, or whatever you inbred conspiracy theorists do.
Go, Code Pink! Next stop: Arlington.
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