Althouse: "If geezers like me have lots of tests and treatments... there isn’t going to be enough money to spend on the other end. This health-care mess isn’t going to be fixed if we aren’t ready to get out of the way."

१४ डिसेंबर, २०१०

"If geezers like me have lots of tests and treatments... there isn’t going to be enough money to spend on the other end. This health-care mess isn’t going to be fixed if we aren’t ready to get out of the way."

Said Hanna Rosin's "new hero."

IN THE COMMENTS: Martha said: "Death Panel of one."

६९ टिप्पण्या:

mesquito म्हणाले...: Good for her. She chose.; १४/१२/१०, ८:०८ AM
campy म्हणाले...: Get-Out-of-the-Way Panels ...; १४/१२/१०, ८:११ AM
Martha म्हणाले...: Death Panel of one.

Self-abnegation ----the Obama way.

12/14/10 8:10 AM; १४/१२/१०, ८:१४ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: This woman gave up her life for ethanol subsidies.

The money saved is not going towards medical care for her grandchildren.; १४/१२/१०, ८:१८ AM
Original Mike म्हणाले...: "This woman gave up her life for ethanol subsidies."

This.; १४/१२/१०, ८:२० AM
traditionalguy म्हणाले...: That was a load of hot steaming BS. Their will some outliers that are too frugal to spend a dime no matter what their needs, and be PROUD that their legalistic rules that makes them better people on whom no money shall ever be wasted. But that BS as a political solution is dead on arrival. That attempted solution is exactly what woke up the Tea Party to start screaming LIAR into the faces of the Politicos all over America. The Japanese once tried a sneak attack on a Scots-Irish nation and they learned what that means...the politicos are only begining to learn the same Retribution Lesson. Go Sarah!; १४/१२/१०, ८:२० AM
Crimso म्हणाले...: "You can not in fact control everything, and soon enough you will know that."

She needs to address this comment to the government, not her readers.

Soon now we'll need Sandmen to go after the Runners.

TW: "shione" I know shit from it.; १४/१२/१०, ८:२३ AM
Mark म्हणाले...: And you know, if they send her body to the knackers and turn her into dog food, she may save the life of some poor little girl's beloved elderly pony.; १४/१२/१०, ८:२३ AM
SpinningStar म्हणाले...: And, the key point is that she got to chose her way of dying. Not a government panel that said you can't have that because you are too old or statistically the outcomes are not in your favor.; १४/१२/१०, ८:२७ AM
Rialby म्हणाले...: Let me continue my rant from yesterday's Breyer thread...

If a government can force you to pay for health insurance for simply BEING, they can force you to pay for counseling sessions to convince you to forego anymore treatment.

Oh, wait. They did that already.; १४/१२/१०, ८:३२ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: I agree that the woman made her own choice, but she was basing her choice upon a lie fed to her that foregoing medical treatment would benefit younger people.

If she were going to pay out of her own pocket, and chose instead to leave a greater inheritance for her heirs that would be one thing.

But, to forego treatment and accept death, because the federal government doesn't have the money, when the government is subsidizing ethanol, pushing ridiculous high-speed trains, etc., is complete idiocy.; १४/१२/१०, ८:३९ AM
Toad Trend म्हणाले...: @crimso

"
TW: "shione" I know shit from it."

Shinola?; १४/१२/१०, ८:३९ AM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: Is this woman any more laudable because she had health care to forego when the end came? As compared to someone who didn't have health care and also went silently into the night?

I hope to be able to follow her, choosing a pain-free and dignified non-tube filled exit. However, God has a sense of irony and humor, so I'm not sure my wishes will come to pass. Where health is concerned, there's little to do but accept things you cannot change.; १४/१२/१०, ८:४१ AM
Meade म्हणाले...: Late-term
partial-death
self-abortion.; १४/१२/१०, ८:४५ AM
Unknown म्हणाले...: People like her are why the Israelis say, "Never again".; १४/१२/१०, ८:५७ AM
test म्हणाले...: This attitude isn't all that uncommon. I'm the executor for a relative who has a DNR (and she's only 63). Her motive is explicitly political, and further she thinks everyone should make this sacrifice to ensure PPACA succeeds.

What worries me the most is the media now hyping this attitide as heroism. The expectation that we should choose to die for ObamaCare is beyond anything any critic asserted in the runup, it's even worse than death panels.; १४/१२/१०, ८:५७ AM
X म्हणाले...: Oh I see. She believed all that health care "crisis" bullshit. She probably thought she was helping global warming by kicking off too.; १४/१२/१०, ९:०२ AM
Larry J म्हणाले...: Some people are just ready to go. My grandfather died several years ago at age 96. He had outlived two wives and by that time, his children were in their 70s with health issues of their own. He was a sharecropper during the Depression raising 5 kids. The idea that he was now a burden on them was abhorrent to him. He met death gracefully and gratefully. Not everyone wants to live forever.; १४/१२/१०, ९:०३ AM
Tank म्हणाले...: I agree that her sacrifice won't be going to help health care down the line in our current situation.

But her underlying point is a good one, we spend way too much money keeping 80, 85, and 90 year old people alive and barely alive in hospitals.

And, of course, we're borrowing that money to spend. Nobody wants to face this issue, including those screaming about death panels.; १४/१२/१०, ९:१३ AM
MarkW म्हणाले...: And, the key point is that she got to chose her way of dying. Not a government panel that said you can't have that because you are too old or statistically the outcomes are not in your favor.

Yes. But there's a pretty good chance, I'd bet, that she'd also have favored a government panel making the same call for 'selfish' geezers who wouldn't get out of the way on their own.; १४/१२/१०, ९:१३ AM
LYNNDH म्हणाले...: Ah, Gov. Dick Lamb of Colorado said the same thing. Of course his wife had breast cancer and had treatment. Is it only old people that need to go gracefully into the night?
Now, before some get upset, I am glad that she had the necessary treatment. And I think that if treatment is available to "elderly" like me (64) we should be able to use. But It is my decision to make if enough is enough. My 89 yr old Dad did and he went peacefully (I believe) without the tubes everywhere. Choice is important.; १४/१२/१०, ९:२५ AM
Dust Bunny Queen म्हणाले...: the key point is that she got to chose her way of dying. Not a government panel that said you can't have that because you are too old or statistically the outcomes are not in your favor.

The idea that you can choose on your own to extend treatment or to not extend treatment, instead of the government or someone else deciding FOR you is central to the ideal of being able to control your own life.....and death.

I'm of an age where many people who are older aquantances are leaving this 'mortal coil'. Also where many of our contemporaries are dropping around us. Family and friends are dropping around us and sadly this is just the way of life.

Each person that I know has faced the end differently, when they knew that it was coming. One dear friend with liver cancer fought until the very last using all the heroic invasive medical procedures she possibly could. One woman, much younger than I, mother of a friend, had lung cancer and declined to extend treatment and died at home surrounded by her children.

The point is that they got to choose. No one else made the decision.

How will I face the end, when it enevitably comes? I know what I think I will do. But will I? Who knows.

But I do know I won't be making the decision for political reasons or to clear the stage to fix "this health care mess"; १४/१२/१०, ९:४२ AM
Meade म्हणाले...: "What in hell is a girl with hips like yours doing selling death?" he asked her from behind.; १४/१२/१०, ९:४८ AM
I'm Full of Soup म्हणाले...: Most people, when confronted with the choice of treatment or giving in, choose treatment. My father lived to 88 and 1/2 years and I saw close up how he hung in there in his last two years as his body failed. That is because you only get one life. I don't thing Hannah even understand that.; १४/१२/१०, ९:४९ AM
Hoosier Daddy म्हणाले...: "If geezers like me have lots of tests and treatments... there isn’t going to be enough money to spend on the other end. This health-care mess isn’t going to be fixed if we aren’t ready to get out of the way."

So what's the magic age we should quit testing and treating to save enough money for the other end?; १४/१२/१०, ९:५६ AM
former law student म्हणाले...: This is an old-school, old country idea. My grandparents, who lived into their 90s, felt they had lived too long and were consuming more resources than they should. My aunt, who lived nearby, was the one who nagged them to get medical care.

You prolong the time of limited faculties -- that's how they saw it.; १४/१२/१०, ९:५७ AM
Hoosier Daddy म्हणाले...: Is it only old people that need to go gracefully into the night?

Good point. Should the parent of a six year old with a terminal illness forego treatment to save money at the other end?; १४/१२/१०, ९:५८ AM
Alex म्हणाले...: You people can make it romantic as you want, but dying is dying. There is nothing good or nice about it. Dying sucks!; १४/१२/१०, १०:०२ AM
roesch-voltaire म्हणाले...: If doctors could have honest conversations about end of life care and how much longer any treatment will extend that life, I suspect more folks would take responsibility for their last stage. I know how difficult this can be; I took care of my mother who hung on for five years until she turned 94-- only in the last year did she agreed to pass letting go of any emergency measures the next time an event took place, and she passed in peace.; १४/१२/१०, १०:११ AM
Sofa King म्हणाले...: By far the biggest disease we face as a species is old age. Why isn't at least as much money being dumped into preventing this disease as, say, cancer? I'm totally serious about this.

WV: judea !!; १४/१२/१०, १०:३९ AM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: Not everyone wants to live forever.

The young want to. The old, not so much (in my experience).

R-V -- sorry to hear about your mother, glad she could make the decision at the end. 90+ is a good long life. My dad's almost there.; १४/१२/१०, १०:४६ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: It is Fascinating to watch the modern "progressive" now arguing for incest and death.

I can't emphasize enough that it is the result of godlessness.; १४/१२/१०, १०:४७ AM
David म्हणाले...: "Nobody wants to face this issue, including those screaming about death panels."

I do.

Presume that everyone over age 78 is useless.

Withhold all medical care from such people.

Line them up and shoot them if they make it to age 85.

They're old. Who cares about them.; १४/१२/१०, ११:१० AM
virgil xenophon म्हणाले...: I'm not an attny, nor a shill for them, but if ever there was a case to be made for living wills, this discussion (and others like it here previously) about end-of-life decisions is it. We won't all be conscious or legally mentally fit to make decisions yea or nay about termination of our lives, so all should get their paper-work in order.

And David? You forgot the ice flows. Just push Grandma onto the ice-flo--"don't worry Grandma, enjoy the view--it's only a short trip.."; १४/१२/१०, ११:३६ AM
Lyle म्हणाले...: Judging people on how best to leave this world. Jesus Christ that Jew girl's audacity. Makes me want to have the State just go ahead and crucify me now.

To David,

Perhaps you're Jonathan Swift... but was Confucius useless at 70,75, or whatever? Andy Rooney should be shot you say?; १४/१२/१०, १२:१९ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Let's say that people could be offered two choices regarding the end of life:

A) Live until 85 in reasonably good physical and mental shape, and then go quickly.

B) Live until 90, with the last ten years spent in a nursing home, hopelessly senile and wearing adult diapers.

My guess is that the vast majority of people will choose B. Quality of life is utterly meaningless, instead everyone clings selfishly to quantity.

Peter; १४/१२/१०, १२:२२ PM
Lyle म्हणाले...: You people can make it romantic as you want, but dying is dying. There is nothing good or nice about it. Dying sucks!

Totally agree Alex... it is something that just happens. Even saying that it sucks values it too much. It's not worth a minute of judgement on how it should happen, certainly not... well she is useless, I need to die so I can help the children, she decided to give up, she's 100 for Christ's sake die you stupid bitch, I get their property yay me, and no more long drives to visit granny.

Everyone dies with grace and without it... nothing more, nothing less. The end.; १४/१२/१०, १२:२७ PM
Lyle म्हणाले...: ironrails,

Wanting not to die is selfish and the "bad" or "wrong" choice?

Who says?; १४/१२/१०, १२:३० PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Choosing to extend one's life for a few weeks or months at enormous cost, when there is no chance whatsoever of survival past that point and one's quality of life is zero ... well, I can't think of anything more selfish.

Peter; १४/१२/१०, १२:३४ PM
Alex म्हणाले...: Quality of life is utterly meaningless, instead everyone clings selfishly to quantity.

How old are you and what kind of health?; १४/१२/१०, १२:३५ PM
Lyle म्हणाले...: ironrails,

Again... who says? By all means, you go ahead and "not be selfish", but don't judge people who don't, I mean, it's their own life and not yours.

Who the fuck are you to determine what quality of life means for someone other than yourself?; १४/१२/१०, १:०१ PM
Alex म्हणाले...: ironrails has already self-appointed Death Panelist.; १४/१२/१०, १:०२ PM
Fred Drinkwater म्हणाले...: I'm 54. In the last year, I had a nephew killed in a military training exercise, a brother die at his own hand, an elderly aunt die after a few months of cancer, another aunt die of old age, my wife's 60 year old cousin die suddenly of misdiagnosed ovarian cancer, my mother choose hospice after one year of treatment for ovarian cancer, my father continue to cope with the effects of multiple small strokes, and my wife's mother find out she had a benign cyst instead of cancer.

Life and death are plenty complicated enough without having to cope with federal paperwork about it.; १४/१२/१०, १:१५ PM
Michelle Dulak Thomson म्हणाले...: ironrailsironweights,

If "quality of life is zero," it seems odd to call it "selfish" to want more of it, and very odd to call it the most selfish thing you ever heard of.

Goddamn Lebensunwertiges Leben! Everywhere you look there's more of it.

wv: stingshe. No comment.; १४/१२/१०, २:२१ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: It's not the whole story of course, but our routine practice of spending enormous amounts of money on heroic treatments that might extend a senile 90 year old's by a week or two is part of the reason why America's infant mortality rate is the disgrace of the civilized world.

Peter; १४/१२/१०, २:४० PM
Rialby म्हणाले...: Collectivism has no room for the individual who selfishly holds on to his expensive BEING.

Communism did not die with the Soviet Union. Its roots had already pervaded and sprouted saplings in the International Left.; १४/१२/१०, २:४१ PM
Michelle Dulak Thomson म्हणाले...: ironrailsironweights,

It's not the whole story of course, but our routine practice of spending enormous amounts of money on heroic treatments that might extend a senile 90 year old's

A senile 90 year old's what? Was life the noun you were groping for there and didn't find? Interesting.

by a week or two is part of the reason why America's infant mortality rate is the disgrace of the civilized world.

American's infant mortality rate is "the disgrace of the civilized world," as I don't doubt you know perfectly well, because in this country we treat as live births infants that in those other, more "civilized" places would be treated as stillbirths. If we wrote off everything under eight months' gestation, I bet our stats would look very nice. Of course, a lot of kids would be dead. But, stats!; १४/१२/१०, ३:०६ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Yes, it seems that we tell the weaklings that it is their patriotic duty to die in order to improve the health care "system".; १४/१२/१०, ३:१० PM
MDIJim म्हणाले...: Look, if the government is going to pay for our health care, why should we get to "choose" prolonged treatment? One hates to admit it, but death panels are a logical and prudent means of controlling health care costs.

If you don't like it, don't buy health insurance.

Oh wait, not buying health insurance is against the law.; १४/१२/१०, ३:३० PM
Michelle Dulak Thomson म्हणाले...: I respect her choice, of course, but I fear this choice turning gradually into a convention. There is a lot of medical care that actually does save lives, even lives of people old enough to be grandparents, even lives of people some (some on this thread, in fact) think just not worth their keep.

The people whose lives those are do generally tend to fight for them, even when their "quality of life" can be calculated as "zero" by someone who knows them not at all.

That someone might refuse anything above hospice care, when there's no reasonable hope of long-term survival, seems a rational decision. I knew a lady who, by the time her pancreatic cancer was diagnosed, had seen it invade practically her entire body. She wasn't keen on chemotherapy, which would not have done her much good even in the life-extension vein.

wv: stgenchi. I don't think I have encountered St. Genchi, but I'm pleased to make her acquaintance.; १४/१२/१०, ३:३६ PM
AllenS म्हणाले...: I buried my 90 year old mother today. She had Alzheimers for the past 7 years. A week and a half ago she decided to get out of her wheelchair and go for a walk, fell, hit her head, and went downhill fast. She's in a better place now.; १४/१२/१०, ३:४६ PM
Meade म्हणाले...: Condolences, Allen. May your mother rest in peace.; १४/१२/१०, ३:४९ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: So sorry to hear about your Mom AllenS. I know you will remember her in all the good times. Especially this time of year.

I will remember her in my prayers.; १४/१२/१०, ४:१७ PM
former law student म्हणाले...: That's too bad Allen. Alzheimer's is difficult no matter what -- the loved one is here but not here. It's no solace, but you did have her a good long time, though.; १४/१२/१०, ४:२५ PM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: AllenS, I'm sorry. May she rest in peace, and I hope you can find comfort in your shared memories.; १४/१२/१०, ४:३६ PM
AllenS म्हणाले...: The reason that I mentioned it was because there are so many old people in nursing homes. They deserve what ever care that society can give to them. I say this not because it was my mom, but there were so many other adults her age in this nursing home, that myself and my brother and sister knew their children. It was like a high school or neighborhood reunion when visiting.

Thanks for the kind words, everyone.; १४/१२/१०, ४:४९ PM
Irene म्हणाले...: AllenS, I am sorry, too.; १४/१२/१०, ५:२७ PM
Michelle Dulak Thomson म्हणाले...: AllenS, it is a horrible thing. My father-in-law died of Alzheimer's, and the decline was horrifically swift -- in December he was just frustrated at not being able to remember where he set something down, and four months later he could recognize nothing and no one. Except that a decades-old joke about zucchini got an actual chuckle.; १४/१२/१०, ६:०१ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: but our routine practice of spending enormous amounts of money on heroic treatments that might extend a senile 90 year old's by a week or two

Hysterical.

You can't provide any evidence that this is "routine"

Mainly because it isn't.

s part of the reason why America's infant mortality rate is the disgrace of the civilized world.

See comment above.

Additionally, you're obviously un-aware at how "infant mortality rates" are compiled.

Finally, you also don't seem to understand that the most cost intensive treatments aren't paid for by any sort of public funds.; १४/१२/१०, ६:३५ PM
JAL म्हणाले...: we spend way too much money keeping 80, 85, and 90 year

do we?; १४/१२/१०, ८:३७ PM
JAL म्हणाले...: AllenS - condolences.

Alzheimers is hard.; १४/१२/१०, ८:४७ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Perhaps there's some tweeting teenaged Jewish girl laying out on Miami Beach; not too intent on thinking too much, still kind of emotionally immature...mostly ignorant of politics... and Rosin's writing for her.

That would explain a lot.; १४/१२/१०, ८:५७ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Allen: Sorry for your loss.; १४/१२/१०, ९:०० PM
KCFleming म्हणाले...: AllenS,
Sorry for your loss and sadness and the hard road she traveled.; १४/१२/१०, ९:५६ PM
sunsong म्हणाले...: AllenS,

I add my condolences. May you and your brother find comfort and may your mother rest in peace.; १४/१२/१०, १०:११ PM
Rose म्हणाले...: I'm sad to say my Dad made a very similar statement. Besides a flash of the term "greatest generation" - my immediate reaction was anger. "What??!! You're kidding!!! Do you honestly think we're not going to do everything in our power to get you through whatever comes? You can live to be 115 now. A healthy 115."

And, "Are you f-cking kidding me? You would lay down like that when the likes of Al Gore and John Kerry and Obama himself will have the finest of medical care?"

There's something seriously wrong with this thinking Obama can do no wrong, that he's some kind of JFK, he isn't. He was a do nothing senator who rose up the ranks by exposing people's private divorce records. And he's not doing anything that is going to preserve your life or even the kind of life you have treasured all your days.

What kind of mass hypnosis or drug has been administered? And why are some of us immune? And how in the hell does it affect an intelligent strong self-sufficient adventurous zen-master kind of man? It sickens me.; १४/१२/१०, ११:०७ PM
former law student म्हणाले...: Rose -- your dad is either thinking out loud or trying to plan a peaceful checkout. Respect his thought processes either way.; १५/१२/१०, १२:०४ AM
Megaera म्हणाले...: Forgive me for stating this crudely, but if the lady in question really believed what she was saying, why not exercise the courage of her convictions and top herself? And rather earlier than appears to have been the case...Based on the facts stated (I grant, I did not read the actual story) it sounds like she didn't really believe her own line: she just waited until the end was pretty much inevitable, and simply declined to push it off just that last little bit farther away. She met her end with grace, fine-- but it's not like she was a hale and hardy 75 who decided to make her quietus with a bare bodkin for the future good of government farm subsidies and the Angora Board. Understand me: I do respect the decision she she made. I spend time with the ill, and sometimes the dying, and I know it was not easily reached. But still, if they are offering her as some sort of poster-child for self-abnegation, I say she's a flawed choice.

Random advice: there are many, and excellent arguments for living wills; just be sure you understand what they actually do, and don't do, and under what circumstances -- and be sure of the person you name as your decision-maker. Are you convinced that your spouse/son/daughter will really pull the plug on you? Has that person agreed to accept the burden of that decision? Does he/she really understand what it entails? Do you, in fact? And don't confuse a living will with a DNR order -- they are in no way the same thing. I run rescue (like, I think, shoutingthomas) and we tend to see the latter more than the former, but I've had confused and distraught family members get confrontational with me about both at inopportune moments.

"A man does not know whose hands will smooth from him the last bubbles of his life. That alone ought to make us kinder to strangers."; १५/१२/१०, १२:२८ AM
Peter Hoh म्हणाले...: Allen, my condolences.; १५/१२/१०, ८:५४ AM