As noted in the Daily Kos "morning warm-up," along with scoffing at No Labels ("the latest political insider group that pretends to be above politics") and a kicks at Michael Steele ("lesbian-bondage-strippers everywhere cheer") and 3 other Republicans.
Man, No Labels can't catch a break. And it's not just that they're so non-partisan that all the partisans disapprove. They're surpassingly lame too. And they stole their logo! And hilariously lamely tried to deny that they stole it: "Conceptually, what I was trying to figure out was how to get away from the elephant and how to get away from the donkey... I’m sure his thought process was similar."
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"As Holbrooke was sedated for surgery, his final words were to his Pakistani surgeon, family members said: "You've got to stop this war in Afghanistan."
More plausibly it was "Rosebud".
At the same time Holbrooke was also heard to lament how he also hadn't seen Santa Claus yet....
It never ends does it?
Lest we forget, Richard Holbrooke was the one who broke Valerie Plame's cover, not Scooter Libby. Hardly someone to trust.
I had the same basic thoughts about this that you did, Althouse. The issue is a belief among certain ostensibly sophisticated people that you can just up and start a grassroots organization without actual grassroots support. In a democracy, leadership follows from needs and wants. There will be no Bolsheviks here.
Whatever people may think of the Tea Party movement, and whatever its faults and shortcomings, no one can deny that it is organic and real and based on a legitimate groundswell of popular support among a large segment of the population.
Whatever happened to the Coffee Party, anyway? This "movement," such as it is, will be the same kind of epic failure.
Clearly the way to end any war is to win it quickly and decisively
Clearly the way to end any war is to win it quickly and decisively
The problem is that modern warfare assumes a modern state with certain targets to be destroyed or overtaken with force. Afghanistan is remarkably not modern. It has very few targets to destroy or overtaken. Further, for complex reasons, no country can use its military without establishing a moral rationale first. Our moral rationale does not involve killing a bunch of innocent people. So we can't do here what we did in Dresden.
For these reasons, there is no way to end the war in Afghanistan quickly or decisively. We must stay for decades. That sucks, but that's statecraft.
Holbrooke is no fool. The Afghan War is a disaster for us. How many have to die before the Taliban agrees to all of our conditions? That is not the question we need answered. The Taliban lives to fight and die for allah, and they are going to be real sad when they have won and we leave.
Clearly the way to end any war is to win it quickly and decisively
Well I don't think that's going to happen. My faith in the Afghan's ability to effectively resist the Taliban is lacking, to say the least.
Time to reinstate the Neutrality Act.
You've got to stop this war in Afghanistan.
That Holbrooke said this to "his Pakistani surgeon" makes his words all the more enigmatic.
Isn't one of Karzai's main disagreements with Washington that US forces should be focused on securing the Pakistani boarder rather than counter-insurgency inside the Afghan tribal areas?
Albiet, probably to permit more official corruption.
(Wasn't Armitage the one who "broke Plame's cover"?)
Trad -- We aren't going to leave. Eventually, long after you and I are dead and gone, Afghanistan will have a revolution of the kind that India had, and kick us out. By then, its Taliban problem will be resolved and it will be somewhat modern.
And the world will have a whole new set of problems similar to but different from the problems of today. San Dimas High School football rules!
Too bad for the No Labels crew that Joe Biden is already taken. He sounds like their kinda guy! Or was it that Kinnock fellow?
wv: coned. "Beldar says that we are SO coned!"
Seven...You seem to be in agreement with my facts, but you say you want to keep worn out men being targets there until forever. What about the real dangers facing us in Iran and soon in Venezuela that need military attention, not to mention Korea.
I am comfortable labeling David Warrent, the "designer" hired by "No Labels" as a bald-faced liar.
He also sounds like an insecure bully and insufferable bore.
you say you want to keep worn out men being targets there until forever
No. We'll rotate in different men.
What about the real dangers facing us in Iran
As I have long argued here at Althouse, a cursory look at a map will demonstrate a tremendously vital reason why we have vast armies in Iraq and Afghanistan. We have Iran surrounded.
and soon in Venezuela
Venezuela is an unserious joke.
not to mention Korea
Korea is a perfect example of American awesomeness. It is by our largess and strategic brilliance that South Korea is the free and successful democracy that it is today. And I note that we have some 38,000 troops stationed there in a high state of combat readiness.
"I do my own thinking, man,” he said. “Feel free to come to one of my classes at Parsons.”
He added: “I have a long and storied history on Madison Avenue. I’m not stupid enough to steal anybody’s work; I have too much faith to come up with my own ideas.”
As for Mr. Porostocky, Mr. Warren said, “Tell the other guy to Google my name.
=====
What a jerk!
“I do my own thinking, man,” he said. “Feel free to come to one of my classes at Parsons, before I get fired.”
I may have added that last bit.
Update from Politico:
Late last night, after I got home and finally saw the nearly identical figures and arrangements between your designs and ours, I realized we could not have gotten our designs from clip art. I confirmed that fact later on last night with my staff. So I totally understand your anger - especially considering the quality of your work. There's no excuse for this. I take full responsibility for it. And I'm sorry.
So his apology reveals that his "I do my own thinking" was total bullshit.
Korea is a perfect example of American awesomeness. It is by our largess and strategic brilliance that South Korea is the free and successful democracy that it is today.
Bully for them. Now that they have a military force that is perfectly capable of defending themselves, I think its time for us to pack up and go home. Same for Europe. Evidently they don't see a credible threat that justifies spending more than .05% of thier GDP on defense so I don't see why we should for them either.
Now that they have a military force that is perfectly capable of defending themselves, I think its time for us to pack up and go home.
No way, man. North Korea is still a threat to South Korea and cannot and will not leave until that country in unified in a way of our choosing. More importantly, China is a military threat. If we ever end up in a war with China, that base will be vital.
Same for Europe.
I disagree here as well. It is no coincidence that a continent that has had thousands of years of strife and awfulness is free and peaceful now. Let the Europeans believe they are better than us. Keeping that peace there at such a small price is a great bargain. You have to know that we would be dragged into whatever military conflict happens in Europe, as it most certainly would if we left. That would cost a lot more blood and money in a month than we spend in 10 years there now.
Whether he said it or not - I agree - we've got to stop this war in Afghanistan.
"And then here comes Richard Holbrooke. There's no more patronizing, condescending, self-important putz than this pinhead."
Imus, Jan 23, 2009
we've got to stop this war in Afghanistan
Why>
Does anyone really believe Holbrook said this?
I do not believe he said it. But I don't really care, either.
No way, man. North Korea is still a threat to South Korea and cannot and will not leave until that country in unified in a way of our choosing.
They're a threat to South Korea. Not us.
More importantly, China is a military threat. If we ever end up in a war with China, that base will be vital.
Why would we go to war with China? If China decides they want to take over Korea or Japan, isn't it up to them to defend themselves?
Keeping that peace there at such a small price is a great bargain. You have to know that we would be dragged into whatever military conflict happens in Europe, as it most certainly would if we left. That would cost a lot more blood and money in a month than we spend in 10 years there now.
Why would we be dragged into another European conflict? For starters, is there a European country that even has a military capable of starting any kind of conflict? Who are we defending Germany from? Poland?
I don't care if the Euros want to be smug, I personally don't think they're worth the life of one American soldier.
Machos' assessment of the situation in the Persian Gulf-Khyber Pass region is on the money. If the war is not being prosecuted well, consider who's sort of in charge.
Why would we go to war with China? If China decides they want to take over Korea or Japan, isn't it up to them to defend themselves?
You answer your own question. It is not in the interest of the United States to have Japan or Korea be conquered by China. We are better off having those countries be our client states, not China's client states.
Why would we be dragged into another European conflict?
Why were we dragged into the last two? One of the things that I do not like about so many conservatives is the inclination toward isolationism in foreign affairs and, too many times, trade. Isolationism is no way to maintain world supremacy.
For starters, is there a European country that even has a military capable of starting any kind of conflict? Who are we defending Germany from? Poland?
Weimar Germany wasn't much of a military threat. Turkey isn't, but the Ottoman Empire was at its height.
We aren't the lords of the seas and so powerful by happenstance. It takes daily work, good statecraft, and a lot of intervention in the affairs of other countries. If we don't intervene, somebody else will. That's the way of the world.
The "wars" in Afghanistan and Iraq will end when there is a regime change in Iran, and not before.
While No Labels and MSNBC are imploring everyone to go Forward!, Mr. Holbrooke left this world urging retreat.
I was fortunate to be at the Continental Baths when a young man named Todd asked me "Are you sure it'll fit all the way to your elbow?"
Todd exited this world shortly after, having both an answer to his question (with some difficulty, yes) and more memorable parting words than Mr. Holbrooke's.
Drudge has pics of Hillary and Holbrook headlining his site. Hillary looks like a kewpie doll left in the sun, and only moderately more alive.
I confirmed that fact later on last night with my staff.
Hahaha, I knew it. These old political farts leave everything technical to the young dudes, because they're just so good at all the Internets and Spacebooks doncha know.
Sadly, the young often still don't get the intellectual property issue. Some will even tell you that all those graphics that are so easy to copy & save are "public domain," because, they're like out in public and stuff. LOL.
and Hoosier,
By Christmas 1941, Nazi Germany had lost their war - it was only a question of how long they would drag it out and how bad the end would be.
Prioritizing the war in Europe over the war in the Pacific was a conscious decision by the US Government due to their fear of the rise of the Soviet Union, i.e, it was about saving the world - including the US - from Communism, not Nazism.
By Christmas 1941, Nazi Germany had lost their war - it was only a question of how long they would drag it out and how bad the end would be.
I'm not going to get into a 'what if' debate but Germany lost the war when we entered it. By the time the Soviets had actually begun any real push back of the German army, was when Germany had lost North Africa, Italy and France and we were bombing German cities 24/7.
Take us out of the picture and the Germans have uninterrupted industrial production and a Luftwaffe roaming over the Eastern front rather than shooting down B-17s over Schweinfurt and you'd have a much different picture on the Eastern front.
The No Labels guy said it was his staff that "borrowed" the logos.
Jeez, how many "Grassroots" group even have a staff?
I think Pelosi would call this group Astroturf but of course this is a liberal group so never mind.
You answer your own question. It is not in the interest of the United States to have Japan or Korea be conquered by China. We are better off having those countries be our client states, not China's client states.
Well lets put it this way, its even more of Korea and Japan's interest not to be conquered by China. Assuming that's a possibility, then its up to them to prepare for it. If they want us to be on their bench to help out then I'd like to see some contribution for the service.
Why were we dragged into the last two?
Last time I checked, it was Japanese Zeros over Pearl Harbor and not German Stukas. As far as
WW1, we had no dog in that fight as far as I can tell. If Europe wants to have another bloodletting then please, let us know when you're done. As you say, we were dragged into it twice and a fat lot of gratitude we got out of it. Bad enough the cost in blood and treasure but we get a good old 'up yours' for our trouble.
One of the things that I do not like about so many conservatives is the inclination toward isolationism in foreign affairs
One thing I don't like is footing the lion's share of the cost (in both blood and treasure) to 'defend' folks who 1) don't see a need to do it for themselves and 2) all to often despise us for doing it.
Isolationism is no way to maintain world supremacy.
Who said we need to have 40K troops acting as a tripwire in Korea to maintain world supremacy? We have these wonderful things called carrier task groups which can project supremacy all over the world.
For starters, is there a European country that even has a military capable of starting any kind of conflict? Who are we defending Germany from? Poland?
Weimar Germany wasn't much of a military threat. Turkey isn't, but the Ottoman Empire was at its height.
We aren't the lords of the seas and so powerful by happenstance. It takes daily work, good statecraft, and a lot of intervention in the affairs of other countries. If we don't intervene, somebody else will. That's the way of the world.
its even more of Korea and Japan's interest not to be conquered by China
So what? What are they going to do if China attacks them? I mean besides lose?
Carol said...
Sadly, the young often still don't get the intellectual property issue. Some will even tell you that all those graphics that are so easy to copy & save are "public domain," because, they're like out in public and stuff. LOL.
Yes. Students who aren't ashamed to paste wikipedia content into their class papers become graduates who aren't ashamed to paste somebody else's work into their work projects.
Advice to employers: be vigilant about what work goes out under your name. Don't assume subordinates are following the rules you will be held to. And when someone accuses you of plagiarism, unless you personally did the work yourself, start with the assumption that they may be right. It may save you embarrassment later.
So what? What are they going to do if China attacks them? I mean besides lose?
So what you're basically saying is Korea and Japan shouldn't have to pony up the resources sufficient to defend themselves from a Chinese attack because we'll be there to do the heavy lifting.
Lets put it this way, if China is going to mount an invasion of anywhere, its going to be Taiwan. Considering they haven't done so yet tells me that 1) They don't have the will or 2) don't have the means or 3) all of the above.
My position is not so much isolationist as it is expecting at least a comensurate effort on the part of the folks that are expecting us to do the bulk of the fighting and dying. Since the end of the Cold War Europe has effectively turned thier militaries into the equivalent of the NYPD SWAT team. I'm not exactly sure what benefit we're getting from spending billions 'defending' a continent that has effectively disarmed itself.
I also don't believe its in our interest to be the first line of defense for two countries who can put a bit more effort into providing for thier own defense, or at the very least, pay us for the privledge of being thier shield.
Just sayin.
Seven, your basic premise with the Tea party is that it grew organically, from a grassroots organization to a national organization. That is just false. The Tea Party grew from businessmen and Republicans who had great dissatisfaction with the moderates in their party and the perceived far left shift of the Democratic party. It was funded by major Republicans to get it off the ground and, though they like to deny it, continues to be funded and supported by the super right wing faction of the Republican party.
What do I say, wait till those "mavericks" get to DC. Their heads will be turned and their bellies will be filled with lobbyist and establishment swill and they will fall faster than the Dow in October 1929. Just you wait. Their "Ideological purity" will be dashed on the rocks of reality. Sad but true.
Vicki from Pasadena
Oh, BTW, let's get out of Afghanistan NOW.
Vicki
Hoosier -- China hasn't attacked Taiwan because it doesn't want a war with the United States. China won't attack Japan or Korea for the same reason. If we withdraw or military support from those countries, China is much more likely to attack them.
Vicki -- Your vacuous propaganda and your beliefs about nefarious Republicans are touching.
But tell us: if it's true that Republican operatives formed the Tea Party, why can't Democratic operatives seem to form the same thing? Are Democratic operatives sucky at their jobs?
Funny how in both logos all the animals' heads/ upper bodies (above the waist) are blue & their lower bodies/ extremities (below the waist) are red.
I'm sure there's nothing to the color distribution; it's just arbitrary. Could just as easily have been the reverse or mixed-- just so happens it isn't. A purely aesthetic design decision-- just form, no content. After all, the "no label" logo would never suggest anything-- visually, subliminally, symbolically-- that they've proscribed themselves from doing in actual labels/ words…
A patient is usually sedated by the anesthesiologist BEFORE the surgeon even arrives.
"The last word he pronounced was--Afghanistan."
Wonder if the person relaying this account was as troubled by it as Marlow was at his harmless prevarication...
Hoosier -- China hasn't attacked Taiwan because it doesn't want a war with the United States.
Did we sign a mutual defense pact with Taiwan?
China hasn't attached Taiwan because they have no way of taking Taiwan. Such an invasion requires a blue water navy, something China doesn't possess. Same reason trying to take Japan won't happen.
Not exactly sure what China has to gain by trying to attack South Korea or Japan other than a giant headache.
Again, if we're going to be the shield for these countries, I'd like to see some reciprocity on the part of those who we're doing the heavy lifting for. Seven we're spending nearly 3/4 of a trillion each year on fighting Islamic fanatics and 'defending' Europe and parts of Asia all the while borrowing a good chunk of money from the very country we're supposed to be defending Japan and S. Korea from. If the irony were any more blatent my ears would bleed.
the perceived far left shift of the Democratic party
The perceived shift to the far left?
Let me guess, Nancy Pelosi is a moderate in your world?
There are people who limit their praise of "service" to only to government people wearing uniforms that they see as "going into danger". The oft-mentioned "Heroes" of the military and the cops and firefighters of 9/11 dogma.
It's actually broader than that. Richard Holbrook served America and it's many needs past "rescue and security" starting as a 21-year old college grad finding himself deep in country in Vietnam.
Holbrooke served America for 41 of 48 years of his adult life. He had many opinions that democrats and republicans alike disagreed with, but he was in the arena.
His impact and value were quite higher than a kid sporting an M-16 in Iraq because it was that or a dull life in a Walmart backroom getting China goods ready to pull out for sale.
The career diplomat, the regulator hopefully doing a better job than his predecessor watching Wall Street fast buck artists, the guy who volunteered 30 years as a parks and rec coach are every bit as important, if not more so, than the hero cop, the firefighter, or kid putting in his 3 years in the Army hoping he doesn't get killed on behalf of "Helping the Noble Iraqi Freedom Lovers".
"It's under the Big Dubbleyuh."
Best words ever said before kicking the bucket.
Not exactly sure what China has to gain by trying to attack South Korea or Japan other than a giant headache.
Many would say the same thing about Iraq and the United States.
Korea, Japan, and China have fought each other for eons. It is no coincidence that such fighting has stopped since the 1950s, when we entered the fray.
As far as reciprocity, we are getting exactly what we want by having Korea and Japan as our client states: they are serving our interests and not China's or Russia's or France's or anyone else's. That is tremendously valuable. You can't be The City on a Hill without being on the hill, above everyone else.
Holbrook was a putz just like you, Cedarford. He will not be missed from the perspective of our national interest.
Many would say the same thing about Iraq and the United States.
And to be perfectly honest Seven, after 7 years I'm asking the same thing there too. In fact, we'd have been better off all around had we just shook hands with Saddam and called it even.
Korea, Japan, and China have fought each other for eons. It is no coincidence that such fighting has stopped since the 1950s, when we entered the fray.
Not to sound flip but past performance is not indicative of future results.
As far as reciprocity, we are getting exactly what we want by having Korea and Japan as our client states:
Seven we're not Rome. We don't have client states. If Japan or the ROK told us to GTFO tomorrow we'd go. Not that they would of course because they gain tremendous advantages having us spend billions of dollars to keep GIs in their countries so they don't have to spend billions of dollars to keep the equivalent.
Again do you not see the irony of our borrowing money from China who we're supposedly defending Korea and Asia from? You think China needs to attack us? All they have to do is not show up at the next treasury auction. Christ why do you think Geitner's always over there saying "Please buy my product!"
Right now we're paying China rent to sit on the top of the hill.
In fact, we'd have been better off all around had we just shook hands with Saddam and called it even.
Iraq is free and democratic. A terrible, ruthless dictator is gone. Much, much more importantly, we have a military presence right next to Iran and a host of other countries that we want to exert pressure on. In the long term, Iraq was a brilliant and wise move.
We don't have client states.
Of course we do. Any country A that receives military, economic, or political support from Country B is a client state. Be realistic.
Again do you not see the irony of our borrowing money from China who we're supposedly defending Korea and Asia from?
I don't see things that way. I see China giving us real, actual money today in exchange for a promise to pay in the future that no one in the world can hold us to. I also see us giving China little pieces of paper in exchange for actual stuff made by virtual slaves so it is very affordable.
So, at the end of each day, China is left with promises to pay in the future that are not remotely enforceable and little pieces of paper. We are left with little pieces of paper and actual, material stuff that is very affordable. Who is getting the better end of that deal? If you say China, you just aren't seeing the facts for what they are.
Right now we're paying China rent to sit on the top of the hill.
No, China is giving us money now for an enforceable promise to pay later.
unenforceable
Vicki -- Your vacuous propaganda and your beliefs about nefarious Republicans are touching.
The super ultra extreme far-right wing line was precious though.
Seven, Hooiser - I'm on the fence. If we leave, the Taliban and Al Queda will have a free hand in AfPak. I don't think its a reach that they'll go after Pakistan to get control of its nukes.
And China *is* currently building their blue water navy. They intend to control all of the Pacific Rim.
The Taliban was never in control of Afghanistan before we attacked, just as we are not in control in Afghanistan now. This is because Afghanistan cannot be controlled. You are assuming a modern state where one doesn't exist.
The Taliban will never take over Pakistan. It's the other way around. Pakistan is providing support for the Taliban. Without that support, the Taliban would be less effective.
The benefits of staying in Afghanistan are: (1) preventing terror groups from operating in a lawless place, (2) being part of the surrounding of Iran, and (3) being next to Pakistan in case radical elements in that relatively modern state (at least the cities) take over.
Iraq is free and democratic. A terrible, ruthless dictator is gone. Much, much more importantly, we have a military presence right next to Iran and a host of other countries that we want to exert pressure on.
Yeah, great.
Of course we do. Any country A that receives military, economic, or political support from Country B is a client state. Be realistic.
I am realistic. Again, they get billions in US defense and remind me again how many Japanese and ROK troops are helping us out in Afghanistan? As a matter of fact, when you look at the total force breakdown in Afghanistan, of the 130K troops there , 92K are US.
I don't see things that way. I see China giving us real, actual money today in exchange for a promise to pay in the future that no one in the world can hold us to. So, at the end of each day, China is left with promises to pay in the future that are not remotely enforceable and little pieces of paper.
So much for the full faith and credit of the United States Treasury. Yeah I guess defaulting on our debt will show em.
Seven, Hooiser - I'm on the fence. If we leave, the Taliban and Al Queda will have a free hand in AfPak.
Well if current events are any indication, they seem to have a free hand there now. If Pentagon figures are any indication there are 20-30K Taliban fighers. I mean that's miniscule compared to what the VC had and we;ve been there almost as long as Nam.
And China *is* currently building their blue water navy. They intend to control all of the Pacific Rim.
Well then, maybe Japan needs to step its game up and rechristen the Yamamoto II.
So much for the full faith and credit of the United States Treasury. Yeah I guess defaulting on our debt will show em.
It's not going to be a default, silly. It's going to be that we can decide not to pay after they've already given us money. The exact analogy is a bank that gives you a loan with no collateral and you can decide to pay if you want. If you decide not to pay, the bank has no recourse. Would you take that deal? Because that's the deal we are getting with every country that buys treasuries.
One of the things that keeps China at bay is the fact that we could extinguish our debts to China at the stroke of a pen. Another is the thousands of troops in Korea and Japan.
we;ve been there almost as long as Nam
How many soldiers have died in Afghanistan and how many died in Vietnam?
As far as Japan, I don't know what the current state of the Japanese military is. However, for many years we did not allow Japan to have a military at all.
I'm sure his thought processes were identical. Even to the layout of the tee shirt.
How cool is that?
Maybe the designer and the plagiarizer is a clone.
They can't even do a good imitation of a grass root.
My comment above was about No Labels.
As for Holbrooke -- when I worked ICU in my previous life, I don't recall seeing a ruptured aortic aneurysm patient who was stricken away from the hopsital survive. (Only possibility would be a very small leaker.)
Terrible prognosis.
I'm sorry my staff stole your work. Otherwise, I do my own thinking, and what I think is, I'll have a long lunch while my interns grab some stuff off Google images and run me up some billable hours.
It's like we're Newton and Leibniz. Two brilliant, independent minds, independently slapping stars on pigs and pelicans and seals, and arranging them thus so.
But then I realized no, I didn't do that at all. Those lazy bastards on my staff stole your stuff.
But you're still welcome in my class, at Parsons.
Seven,
Our troops at the DMZ are there as much to reassure the Chinese that we are not planning anything stupid, as to keep the North Koreans at bay.
Also, of course, they also keep the PLA from getting carried away with any offshore adventures, so having them there works both ways.
@ victoria It [The Tea Party] was funded by major Republicans to get it off the ground and, though they like to deny it, continues to be funded and supported by the super right wing faction of the Republican party.
you know victoria, you are either too lazy to get informed or you are an idiot
no one made or paid for one damn sign I made and carried at numerous events in my area. I've still got one in the window of my stations wagon which gets thumbs up when I go down the road.
I don't even know if what I was at at those times was counted as a "tea party" gatherings those times I went. I do know if I wanted to get the local bus to DC for some of the gatherings there I was going to shell out my OWN money, not have Huff-Post or SEIU or some other mega funded group pay for my seat.
like lots of lefty stuff -- what the left does is "fake" but, of course, "accurate." That's their view of "grass roots." ("no label"!!!) ha!!
Beth said...
But then I realized no, I didn't do that at all. Those lazy bastards on my staff stole your stuff.
Beth, I know that blaming the staff is often an excuse; and furthermore, the guy who puts his name to the work is fully responsible for verifying the status of the work.
But in this case, I fault him for his arrogance, but I believe his story. If he personally had committed the plagiarism, I don't think he would have made such a vehement and arrogant denial.
I've seen a case like this before, so maybe that's coloring my view here. In that case, a reviewer caught the plagiarism before the guy in charge published the work; but the guy in charge had naively believed his staff when they told him it was original work.
"You've got to stop this war in Afghanistan"
If Holbrook even said it, I think he meant that we should stop participating in this war. The war, of course, will go on. It is just that the side we support will loose.
Karzai, notwithstanding, I think our side is better for us and their country than the Taliban.
Seven Machos said...
we;ve been there almost as long as Nam
How many soldiers have died in Afghanistan and how many died in Vietnam?
Trying to frame war adventures only by dead bodies is stupid. The Japs only lost 6700 at Midway, but that naval battle finished them. In our wars of adventure, contrary to Neocon dreams, we are losing our Empire, thanks to wars of adventure others avoid and global committments underwritten by others finances.
The British Empire fell not by "numbers of dead Brits" but by falling from a creditor nation to being enthralled to Jewish bankers and US lendors in WWI. Creating Zionism and the Soviet Union underwritten by wealthy Jewish moguls, Brit Empire selling of assets to make the USA middle class and prosperous and master of it;s own fate.
And Brits were finished in WWII not by Germans but becoming lendor USA's butt boys and the collapse of the British idea of free trade, open markets, open Borders.
While you may be right over Hoosier, 7 Machos, if the USA was a creditor nation...Free Trade for Freedom Lovers, international finance, and Globalism is bringing us down like the Brits were downed and feeding enemies of the West.
The days of the Neocons is over. So is the American Empire, unless we end free trade and shoot half the people in Wall Street finance - which we won't until we collapse
Maybe we would be having better results now if Obama had appointed people less interested in "stoppingthe war and more interested in winning it.
BTW. WV: "schlocked."
Just thought I'd share.
Hilarious, Beth!
Martin: "But in this case, I fault him for his arrogance, but I believe his story. If he personally had committed the plagiarism, I don't think he would have made such a vehement and arrogant denial. "
There is always the option of saying "let me check with my staff". I suspect he didn't want to immediately say they may be to blame because he'd had no intention of giving them any credit.
Now people know just how distanced he is from "his" work.
Those goddamn Jews! Always having money to lend to people who want to borrow money. Motherfuckers. Them and the neocons, which is, of course, a code word for foreign policy Jews making sensible decisions you don't like.
To a gas chamber! GO!
Jewish bankers? Jewish bankers ...
well, that confirms my opinion of someone.
Seven Machos said...
Those goddamn Jews! Always having money to lend to people who want to borrow money. Motherfuckers. Them and the neocons, which is, of course, a code word for foreign policy Jews making sensible decisions you don't like
============
Jews like Jacon Schiff underwriting the Soviet Union was not a sensible decision if Schiff's loyalty was to America 1st.
And rail on Hoosier all you want. Empire cannot be sustained if America is a debtor nation, ruined by Free Trade, and being the world's 9/11 Service.
I for one am tired of seeing the American economy spiral down the tubes because some people want to fight never-ending wars in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.
If the Afghanis want to kill each other I don't see that is any concern of ours. I don't want my sons to have to fight there and I don't want my taxes to go pay for bombs for Afghanistan when the money could be put to much better use building schools and roads in America.
Anyone who wants to fight wars without end needs to ask his doctor to reduce the testosterone dosage in his Androgel.
Eventually these will be the last words spoken by many including the neo-cons. I just hope the heart of America will not bleed out before the realization.
I thought Hoosier and I were having a nice conversation. Sad that you came along with you sorry, stupid Jew bashing. Speaking of which, dude, are the Jews scoundrel rich bankers or are they dirty Communists bent on Utopia? As a group, I mean. And how is it they can do so much dastardly damage and world corrupting with such -- as you have driveled here -- average to poor intelligence? Satan is smart, you know.
Gene: who is making your children fight our wars?
Finally, Afghanistan was a safe haven for the people behind the worst ever attack on America. Afghanistan is next to Iran and Pakistan, two countries containing people who have designs on bringing serious harm to our interests and our property and our actual selves. One has nuclear weapons. The other is close to getting them. I'm sure it's pleasant for you to spin little fantasies in your head about how these problems will just go away if we only cocoon ourselves at home. I wish you sweet dreams. Meanwhile, men and women of action know very differently.
it was about saving the world - including the US - from Communism, not Nazism.
If that's the case, it would appear we lost WW2.
I suspect he didn't want to immediately say they may be to blame because he'd had no intention of giving them any credit.
Ha! I think you're right.
I still think it's funny that "No Labels" used the "Gotham" typeface (AKA the official Obama typeface) as their titling face.
I'll re-post my comment from another thread:
"No Labels" is indeed using the Obama campaign typeface, which is from Hoefler & Frere-Jones and is called "Gotham". The "No Labels" literature I've looked at uses Gotham Ultra as a titling face.
Um, nothing says non-partisan "No Labels" like a stolen design accompanied by the Hope&Change typeface! DUH.
By the way, "Gotham" was not designed specifically for the Obama campaign; it was released in 2000 and is intended to mimic the kind of vernacular typefaces used in early-to-mid-20th century urban signage.
intended to mimic the kind of vernacular typefaces used in early-to-mid-20th century urban signage
And Obama's true believers mimic the kind of wilted progressivism used by early-to-mid-20th century urban people. So, perfect.
Seven Machos: "Who is making your children fight our wars?"
That would be idiots who can't sleep at night unless we are blowing up some village on the other side of the planet.
"Meanwhile, men and women of action know very differently."
Spanking the monkey at the thought of killing foreigners doesn't make you a man of action. A real man of action uses his brain before he commits this country to decade long wars in provinces no one every heard of before. Real men build schools and bridges in America, not blow up things in other countries.
No, Gene. Who is making your children fight wars? Are you speaking of other people's offspring who are 19 and 25 years old? Are you really calling them children?
As far as the rest of your tripe and attacks, you sound like a silly, unserious hack. You will never have any power of any kind, so what's the use in trying to instruct you concerning its use?
"Real men build schools and bridges in America, not blow up things in other countries."
LOL. Who knew FDR and Churchill weren't "real men".
For Herr Cedarford:
Herr Ludwig: I assure you... they're all in it together.
Fräulein Kost: If all the Jews are bankers, then how can they be Communists, too?
Herr Ludwig: Subtle...very subtle, Fraulein Kost. If they can't destroy us one way... they try the other.
Brian Roberts: You don't really believe that, do you?
Fräulein Mayr: But you read it every day in the Volkischer Beobachter.
Brian Roberts: That ridiculous Nazi tripe!
Herr Ludwig: It is an established fact, Herr Roberts, that there exists a well-organized international conspiracy of Jewish bankers and Communists.
Brian Roberts: It's also an established fact that there exists another well-organized group, of which you're obviously a member. The International Conspiracy of Horses' Asses.
Cabaret, 1972
Do you frequent websites like this, Cedarford?...
http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Rothschild.htm...
Following a brief training period in the Rothschilds London Bank, Jacob Schiff, a Rothschild, born in their house in Frankfurt, arrives in America at the age of 18, with instructions and the finance necessary to buy into a banking house there. The purpose of this was to carry out the following tasks.
1. Gain control of America's money system through the establishment of a central bank.
2. Find desirable men, who for a price, would be willing to serve as stooges for the Illuminati and promote them into high places in the federal government, the Congress, Supreme Court, and all the federal agencies.
3. Create minority group strife throughout the nations, particularly targeting the whites and blacks.
4. Create a movement to destroy religion in the United States, with Christianity as the main target.
Please, for the love of God, stay there.
As far as the rest of your tripe and attacks, you sound like a silly, unserious hack. You will never have any power of any kind, so what's the use in trying to instruct you concerning its use?
What's absurd is the notion that a monkey spanking "man of action" such as yourself could instruct anyone in anything. Getting hard over the thought of killing people half a world away doesn't make you a man of action. It doesn't make you a man of any kind, let alone someone who actually understands power.
Gene -- Who is making your kids or anyone's kids fight any war, or serve in the military at all?
Please take a break from your Hallmark-grade hackery and address this simple question. Then, you can go back to talking about bridges and schools. Probably you should mention our obese poor kids, too.
Hoosier Daddy:
Why, yes, we did. We signed a mutual defense treaty with Taiwan in the Sino-American Mutual Defense Treaty. While Jimmy Carter tried to unilaterally abrogate it, it is quite plausible to argue that it is still binding,
given the results of the case Goldwater v. Carter.
And why would we be dragged into another European conflict? For the same reason we were dragged into WWI, WWII, and Bosnia; our policy leaders will drag us in, whatever our formal commitments.
(And no, we didn't enter WWII after Pearl Harbor. We began open naval warfare against Germany in September 1941, without Congressional authorization.)
Ha Ha. Wait until everyone wakes up this morning and finds out that it wasn't a quote from Holbrooke, but it was a joke from somebody in this administration. They are just so, so funny these days.
"Iraq is free and democratic...In the long term, Iraq was a brilliant and wise move."
Spoken like (and by) a true ignoramus and madman.
Seven Machos: Please take a break from your Hallmark-grade hackery
Right. And become a keyboard commando like you, thrilled at the thought of Hellfire missiles blowing up yet another wedding party in Kandahar (and in the process creating 1,000 new jihadists pledged to kill us or die). America used to be a great country until you perpetual war types made a fool out of the founding fathers.
Gene -- What about all the 23-year-old children who are forced into military service? Will you address that tremendous problem in this country? Or will you just continue to be ironic and spew forth bellicose invective about how angry you are about necessary wars?
Seven Machos: Or will you just continue to be ironic and spew forth bellicose invective about how angry you are about necessary wars?
I'll just continue to spew forth invective about all the stupid, endless and totally unnecessary wars we're involved in these days. They are not helping America, they are making enemies out of our former allies, they are wrecking our economy and turning American into a third world state. Finally they are making the average American so docile and cowed he just smiles gamely when TSA security thugs ogle his prepubescent daughter daughter and put their rubber gloves in his wife's underwear.
Orwell was more prescient than he knew when he wrote 1984. Like the countries he wrote about we are now engaged in perpetual war and to some people (insert your name here) that's just Jim Dandy.
Wars are making people, docile. And some unknown entity is forcing American children -- though not your own -- to join the military.
Okay, chief. Brilliant.
Okay, chief. Brilliant.
If you are pleased at the government's crackdown on freedom in the name of security then you are part of the problem. If you think war without end is an American tradition you are part of the problem. If you like killing people on the other side of the planet for no good reason you are the problem too.
Afghanistan is no threat to the US. We bombed the shit out of it after 9-11. Isn't that enough for you?
Yeah, I know, it's next to Pakistan, which is next to India, which is next to Ceylon, which is in the Indian Ocean, and that borders on Antarctica. Are you worried about the threat from Antarctica too? Is there any excuse you won't use to wage perpetual war?
But what about the children being forced to fight wars? Why won't you address this? Shouldn't we be forcing our children to build bridges and schools instead?
Gene: If you like killing people on the other side of the planet for no good reason you are the problem too.
As a former Marine who's served in combat, I can't take someone who thinks we "enjoy" the prospect of killing other people. You've watched too many Libtard Movies.
As a former Marine who's served in combat, I can't take someone who thinks we "enjoy" the prospect of killing other people. You've watched too many Libtard Movies.
Be sure you don't misrepresent what I say, Fen. My DD214 shows a combat air medal too. I don't think our troops are bloodthirsty. It's the bloody armchair patriots I can't stand.
My DD214 shows a combat air medal too.
Were you a child forced to serve in the military after the draft was abolished?
Were you a child forced to serve in the military after the draft was abolished?
It was after they abolished the IQ test for bloggers--the break you needed to get your posts on Althouse.
Come on, dude. You said, about Afghanistan: I don't want my sons to have to fight there.
Now, I know that you want to continue to avoid the question because it is so humiliating to you, but I really think you should answer it: do you have sons who were or are forced to fight in Afghanistan? Who is behind this travesty? And why only your sons?
It's a curious story. And I want details.
And I want details.
Your arrogance is in thinking I have any obligation to provide you with any details about my sons whatsoever. And why are you so interested in my sons anyway? Are you with the local draft board or something?
I'm protective of my sons because I don't want the media, or Washington, or war mongers such as yourself getting into yet another war, this time in Iran, which will spread so big and last so long Obama and his war party friends will bring back the draft. Our young men should be rebuilding America, not blowing up Afghanistan and certainly not attacking Iran and thereby fomenting a regional war just because Israel and AIPAC want us to.
If questions are to be asked, I think you should answer the question, why are you so eager to turn the whole world against us in a futile effort to blow up people in countries which are either no danger to America or wouldn't be any danger if we didn't spend so much time and wealth and blowing up things in the Mid-East.
I knew if I kept scratching the surface I'd eventually bring out the freak show. The parts about Israel are especially rich and telling.
Thank you!
The parts about Israel are especially rich and telling.
Even more telling are purported loyal Americans who put the welfare for another country ahead of that of that of this one. I could tell by your support for perpetual war in Afghanistan what your real concern was, and it wasn't the best interests of the United States of America or the welfare of our fighting men.
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