२१ डिसेंबर, २०१०

"He bounds into a room... He doesn’t walk in, he explodes in."/"She’s such a force... She rocks back and forth on her feet as if she can’t contain her energy as she’s talking to you."

The story of their marrying is told in the NYT "Vows" column, but both of them already had spouses when they fell in love. So why did the NYT present their story as if it were something to be celebrated? Or is the "Vows" column more complex than that." Okay. First, let's look at some of the details of the story:
The connection was immediate, but platonic. In fact, as they became friends so did their spouses. There were dinners, Christmas parties and even family vacations together.

So [Carol Anne] Riddell was surprised to find herself eagerly looking for [John] Partilla at school events — and missing him when he wasn’t there. “I didn’t admit to anyone how I felt,” she said. “To even think about it was disruptive and disloyal.”

Ms. Riddell said she remembered crying in the shower, asking: “Why am I being punished? Why did someone throw him in my path when I can’t have him?”

In May 2008, Mr. Partilla invited her for a drink at O’Connell’s, a neighborhood bar. She said she knew something was up, because they had never met on their own before.

“I’ve fallen in love with you,” he recalled saying to her. She jumped up, knocking a glass of beer into his lap, and rushed out of the bar. Five minutes later, he said, she returned and told him, “I feel exactly the same way.”
Before sleeping together, they told their spouses, and Partilla considered himself to be doing the "terrible thing as honorably as I could." Partilla then, as the NYT phrased it  "moved out of his home, reluctantly leaving his three children." Then he came back, then left, back and forth, feeling lots of "pain."
The pain he had predicted pervaded both of their lives as they faced distraught children and devastated spouses, while the grapevine buzzed and neighbors ostracized them.

“He said, ‘Remind me every day that the kids will be O.K.,’ ” Ms. Riddell recalled. “I would say the kids are going to be great, and we’ll spend the rest of our lives making it so.”
Riddell "came to realize" that her predicament "wasn’t a punishment, it was a gift." And in this framing of the tale, the heroine needed to "earn" the gift. How? By being "brave enough to hold hands and jump."

There are 139 comments over at the NYT, many of them very critical of the Times:
Why does the Times glorify home-wrecking? Is it a sign of our times that personal responsibility to one's spouse and children takes a back seat to selfish, self-centered love....

The notions of "Vows" has a deliciously ironic depth of meaning here - the ones they made, but the ones they felt less compelled to honor. I doubt very much there's not more than what is related here - What a rationalization as to why it's OK to "befriend" another family then break up two in one shot. "It was just love!" Methinks it's the selfishness that's big and noisy!
They not only broke up their own families. They broke up the big friendship that had interwoven the 2 families. The left-behind spouses not only trusted their own partner, they also believed that, together with that partner, they enjoyed a great friendship with a wonderful couple and their kids. All those memories of social times spent together are now to be understood in a new way.

Forbes has a story about the controversy:
In addition to strong condemnation from numerous bloggers and many of the paper’s own commenters, the article, as a first of sorts for the Times, invited a number of questions. Why were the ex-spouses of the newlyweds not mentioned by name in the story? Did the reporter call them for comment, as basic journalistic practice would dictate? Why did the Times open up the comment board when most Vows stories are off-limits? And above all, what were the couple thinking in telling their story in a space normally reserved for feel-good, soft-focus meet-cute tales?

“We did this because we just wanted one honest account of how this happened for our sakes and for our kids’ sakes,” Riddell told me. “We are really proud of our family and proud of the way we’ve handled this situation over the past year. There was nothing in the story we were ashamed of.”

Riddell says the backlash is “sort of surprising to me. I think people are focusing a lot on the negative, but there was a lot of positive.” But, she notes, “we’ve had a lot of people say to us how brave we are to do this, how commendable it was that we were as honest as we were.” 
The things people will say... to your face.
So did the story’s author, Devan Sipher, seek comment from the exes?... [A] Times spokeswoman says, “We do not comment on the process of editing and reporting including who was and was not contacted for interviews related to a specific story. The Vows/Wedding column adheres to the standards of the Times.” The paper’s Weddings/Celebrations editor, Robert Woletz, did not return a message; nor did the exes, who, like their former spouses, both have high-level jobs in the media industry. (In both cases, the first marriage was also written up in the Times.)
That's all very complex. But I'm happy with the notion that the Times writes up marriage stories because they raise interesting issues. Happy families are all alike. Who wants to read about them?

२९१ टिप्पण्या:

«सर्वात जुने   ‹थोडे जुने   291 पैकी 201 – 291
Freeman Hunt म्हणाले...

Going after Althouse or Meade based on this article is totally out of line. You going to go after the exes of the jerks in the NYT article next?

Trooper York म्हणाले...

Plus everybody knows the blogger lady hooked up with Lawrence because he is a good lookin' dude if I can say that without being too gay.

I mean have you seen a photo of her first hubby. He looks like Arlo Guthrie got locked in a bakery for a month.

Trooper York म्हणाले...

Wait was that too mean?

Trooper York म्हणाले...

I mean we know the blogger lady hates the chubby. Just sayn'

Freeman Hunt म्हणाले...

Your kids don't care so much about how ideal your marriage is.

David म्हणाले...

Neither do I condemn thee. Go, and sin no more.

Freeman Hunt म्हणाले...

Neither do I condemn thee. Go, and sin no more.

And that is apropos of what?

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Troop,

Not too long ago, when the subject of why we come here came up, you agreed with me it was the free speech aspects - you even went further and said how much you appreciate hearing the perspectives of people you disagreed with. Calling for us to be demure - when Ann purposefully (but unwittingly maybe?) asks us to reflect on issues that sometimes make one say "But wait a minute,..." is hypocritical.

Long story short, as I see it:

Just because Boomers thought they'd changed all the rules of American society didn't make it so - they merely had the numbers to get away with it for a while - and now reality's coming back to bite them.

Despite everything they said and did (and continue to do) there's no escaping reality.

KCFleming म्हणाले...

Well that was a threadkiller.

DADvocate म्हणाले...

Another pair of narcissistic, immature hedonist holding themselves up as guiding lights and premier examples of a fulfilling life.

Phil 314 म्हणाले...

to be doing the "terrible thing as honorably as I could

But still a terrible thing

But I'm happy with the notion that the Times writes up marriage stories because they raise interesting issues. Happy families are all alike.

Commitment and honor are sooooooo boring!

JohnMcG म्हणाले...

"also DBQ - according to the article, whether you choose to believe their version or not - they did NOT sexually cheat."

Of course, the reason there is a sanction against adultery is that it leads to the break-up of marriages.

So I'm not going to award points for avoiding adultery while engineering the end of your marriage.

Dust Bunny Queen म्हणाले...

Ok..Want to hear the very best divorce revenge story...ever?

Don't read anymore if you don't. Told to me by someone who says they know these people.

Guy divorces wife. Dumps her for a young babe. Guy is an executive in an insurance company. Guess who his secretary is? Anyhooo. The ex wife is a hair dresser and for years she has been dying her (now) ex-hubby's hair to match his toupee.

The guy has the nerve to ask her if she would dye his hair. Reallly. Reallly??

Soooo. She says. Ok... for old times sake. She cuts his hair so it blends in nicely to the toupee. She dyes his real hair a lovely shade of green and tells him to have a nice life. He can't tell because he is color blind!!... and goes off blithly on his way thinking he is just such a stud and that he has everything under control.

The next day at work.....bwahahahahah.....

Revenge is sweet.

Penny म्हणाले...

"Penny, we don't know anything about the details of their divorces."

And what if you did, Freeman? Would that make them any less divorced?

Whether you believe this or not, my comments were not meant to be disrespectful of Althouse or Meade. Further, I am trying like hell not to piss off the rest of you, who I surely enjoy engaging with on nearly any topic.

I am merely, "engaging" on this topic, and pointing out some inconsistencies that I feel are worthy of discussion, and, at least to my mind, much "worthier" of discussion than this couple of couples none of us know in the least.

The Scythian म्हणाले...
ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.
MayBee म्हणाले...

And what if you did, Freeman? Would that make them any less divorced?

The fact that we don't means they didn't trumpet the braveness of their choice to the New York Times "Vows" section.

Divorce happens. People deal. Often privately. Not everyone wants to be applauded for it, and imagines to the New York Times that their children will be the biggest fans of their bravery.

The Scythian म्हणाले...

Penny,

People get divorced for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes, those reasons are actually really, really good.

This story, however, is about two cheating spouses who ditched their families and obligations, and they want to be applauded because they didn't have sex.

A divorce is one thing -- some people just shouldn't stay married. But to leave your spouse and your children betrayed, devastated, and confused by cheating like that is just plain fucked up.

There's a difference between two divorcees remarrying and two people meeting while they're married and then fucking over their kids and spouses.

Trooper York म्हणाले...

Crack far be it from me to ask you to be demure. Free speech means everything to me. Which you have to acknowledge the evil blogger lady as one of us because she lets our snotty comments stand.

Very few bloggers would do that. Me and you do too. So we can start a club....maybe a group...it could even get really successful and turn into a cult of free spee...errr...sorry...nevermind.

Hey I have naked picture of Betty Rubble on my site. Just sayn'

MayBee म्हणाले...

And honestly, if the public didn't get upset about the idea of two spouse-friends falling in love behind their spouses' back, what would that say?

Who wants to live in a world where using mutual family vacations as a sort of a courtship ritual with your friend's spouse is perfectly acceptable?

mrs whatsit म्हणाले...

Nothing says more about the shallow souls and narcissism of that NYT couple than their choice to be photographed for this article WITH THEIR CHILDREN. The exposure of the faces of those kids to the world in association with such a sordid little story is all you need to see to know that neither one of those so-called adults knows the first thing about love.

That woman was right: her children are going to look at her and know that she's "flawed and imperfect" indeed -- and far more "deeply in love" with herself than she ever could be with anyone else on earth, including her children.

After almost 30 years of marriage, here is the most important thing I know about love: it is a verb, not just a noun.

Penny म्हणाले...

OK, so now I hear some people saying that that they weren't really so upset about a divorcing couple as much as they were about the new couple talking about it to the NYT's.

Yet most of us gave high fives to Althouse and Meade for their NYT's story about second chance love?

Alex म्हणाले...

The message I'm getting from most of ya'll is bad marriage must GO ON at all costs! For teh child-RUN.

The Scythian म्हणाले...

Penny,

I went up and reread all of the responses to your question, and nearly every one of them (including my own) focused primarily on the cheating aspect. The only one that didn't was Crack's.

And, although I'm too lazy to go back and read every comment, I remember getting the impression that the cheating aspect was the primary complaint in a lot of them.

I know that your role is "contrarian who stirs up shit here", but most people aren't just miffed that this couple talked to the NYT (although that's certainly a factor). It's the cheating aspect that's pissing people off.

The Scythian म्हणाले...

Alex,

I'm all for divorce as a way to get out of a bad marriage. Some couples just shouldn't be together and that's just how things are.

But no, it's not OK to dump your spouse for someone else's spouse like that, and it's not OK to carry on a secret romantic affair (even if there's no sex involved) behind your spouse's back. It's fucked up...

...for the child-RUN.

Alex म्हणाले...

But no, it's not OK to dump your spouse for someone else's spouse like that, and it's not OK to carry on a secret romantic affair (even if there's no sex involved) behind your spouse's back. It's fucked up...

Love will take you places you couldn't ever imagine. There is hardly enough time in life to wait until one is amicably divorced BEFORE finding out if you're sexually and spiritually compatibility with the person you're going to.

Elmer Stoup म्हणाले...

The NYT disgusts me. That said, let's not use this story to beat up on liberals. Plenty of the negative comments in the Times' came from people who appeared liberal.

JohnMcG म्हणाले...

I understand that "for the childrem" has become a punch line to push back against policies that may only tangentially benefit childrem, but yes, adults, parents in particular should act in a way to help children, or at least not actively harm them.

This includes wprking to ensure one's hildren have a stable home. Does this mean "lalll costs?" Well, not abuse, bit I think it includes living with the persom you mde vows to even if you think another is your "soul mate."

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

I went up and reread all of the responses to your question, and nearly every one of them (including my own) focused primarily on the cheating aspect. The only one that didn't was Crack's.

Yea - I'm the only one focused on the one thing that, in this NewAge culture, gets short shrift:

The concept of Marriage.

It doesn't offend me that Meade and Ann are together, just don't call it a marraige. I know what a marriage is - I happen to have committed to one myself. My ex ran off with a quack and they killed three people. I think that falls under "for better or for worse", right? There's no opt-out clause that I remember. That's just the bullshit slight-of-hand Boomers came up with, like a baby is "just a collection of cells".

Don't bullshit me, or try to, is all I ask.

Penny म्हणाले...

Youngblood, this "new" couple wasn't duplicitous.

They felt something that they believed was strong enough to NOT lie about.

Then they acted on that.

Then they chose to talk about it, and rather openly.

David म्हणाले...
ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.
David म्हणाले...

"Apropos of what?"

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


I have always found this passage somewhat mysterious, and am not sure how it applies to the numerous stones flying in all directions as a result of this sad incident. But at the least it tells me that I am not the person to pass judgment, and others here may be similarly disqualified.

KCFleming म्हणाले...

Penny,
you missed the boat.

The crime was betrayal.
Your response was tu quoque.

JohnMcG म्हणाले...

Jesus also admonished the prostitute not to continue this sin.

Nobody here is suggesting we stone this couple or inflict any actual punishment on them.

But they have presented their actions to the current paper of record. I consider our criticism of it to be akin to Jesus's suggestion that the prostitute not repeat this sin.

For this couple, it's too late. But I do think it's important that the message goes out loud and clear that we do not embrace this behavior.

The Scythian म्हणाले...

Penny,

Pogo hit the nail on the head.

If you're married and you find yourself falling for someone else, the proper response isn't to maintain your friendship and go on vacations and double dates with that other person, it's to realize that there's something wrong with your current marriage, stop seeing that other person, talk to your current spouse, and probably go to counseling.

If the marriage breaks up after that, then at least you can say that you tried.

And yeah, I said the proper response. And the proper response is never saying, "I wuv you, soul mate!" in a bar and then going home to dump your spouse and leave your kids abruptly.

That's never the right answer.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

I was divorced for 20 years before I remarried, my first husband remarried 15+ years ago, and Meade was divorced before I met him.

mrs whatsit म्हणाले...

Penny's trolling. She knows perfectly well that there's no equivalence between divorcing your spouse so you can marry somebody you met during your first marriage, and getting married to somebody you met after you were already divorced for other reasons. Trollwise, she's pretending she's too dumb to see the difference -- and it's not worth playing her game.

Peter Hoh म्हणाले...

So, would Newt and Callista suffer the same wrath if they wrote up the story of their engagement for the NYT Vows column?

The Scythian म्हणाले...
ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.
The Scythian म्हणाले...

Peter,

They'd definitely suffer the same wrath from me! Especially Newt, who divorced his first wife (who he'd been running around on with the woman he'd eventually leave to be with Callista) while she was in the hospital with cancer, if I remember correctly.

WV: duper (That's probably appropriate here, actually!)

Penny म्हणाले...

"Penny, you missed the boat."

Yes, I did.

But please don't feel bad, sad or dismissive of me, because I did. It was a choice.

Those who sailed away will see me waving with all that I have. Both when they go, and when they come home.

JohnMcG म्हणाले...

So, would Newt and Callista suffer the same wrath if they wrote up the story of their engagement for the NYT Vows column?

Damn. When you're beat, you're beat.

I really don't give a damn about marriage, fidelity, or children. I just saw this happy-seeming couple with no stated political affiliation and wanted to piss on them. I didn't want to admit it, but your perfectly played tu quoque left me no choice. Time for me to admit the game is up.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Wow - for a lawyer, top of her class and all that, you do surprise. What's 20 years (or more) got to do with a life-long commitment? Is this like that Prince Charles documentary I found, showing how weird he is, that starts with "The wedding of Charles and Camilla,...it had been delayed for 35 years - because they were married to other people"?

Ann, the phrase "my first husband" gives the whole game away. How many "spouses" are you all collectively up to? (Is it a collection?) And when are you going to appear in the "Vows" column, explaining how deep and meaningful they are each time?

It's hilarious you'd expect anyone to take that seriously.

Joan म्हणाले...

Love will take you places you couldn't ever imagine.

Only if you let it.

And I believe the word you're looking for there is lust, not love. If it's really love, what's the rush? Love is patient. And there are all kinds of love, too. Why couldn't these two be happy to know each other and be friends? Why did they have to pursue a completely inappropriate relationship? They knew it was wrong but they both decided to do it anyway, damn the consequences.

Jennifer म्हणाले...

Interesting link, Freeman. It's something I wonder about. My mom has said many times that staying together for the kids (for as long as they did) was important and the best thing for us. Having struggled with my own tendency to mimic their behavior, I wonder about it.

traditionalguy म्हणाले...

Serial monogamy has its rules. These two soul mates did not even obey those rules. That makes their relationship shaky because how can the believe one another's faithfulness to any rules.

Unknown म्हणाले...

This couple reminds me of Chris Evert and Greg Norman, who both left long marriages to marry each other. People Magazine had a spread about the wedding and how they had "never known love like this" blah, blah, blah.

How long did that marriage last? Not long.

Two narcissists cannot last in a relationship together.

I feel sorry for their children. Their ex-spouses, on the other hand, should thank their lucky stars to be rid of these two losers.

As for the asinine commentary about Althouse and Meade, comparing them to this couple is like comparing apples to Harley Davidsons. Puh-leeeze.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Laura,

As for the asinine commentary about Althouse and Meade, comparing them to this couple is like comparing apples to Harley Davidsons. Puh-leeeze.

You guys don't get it:

This ain't about Ann and Meade, but "the soul of a nation", and, in case you haven't noticed (and I can't believe it takes an atheist to explain any of this to you) not only are most countries convinced ours no longer has one, but we don't seem to sure about it ourselves - which is also why everyone's currently fucking with us.

As this idiotic already-trouble-in-Paradise-because-they-were-in-the-NYT couple proves, maybe if more of us were concerned with getting things right/trying to be good - rather than trying to be elusively "happy" - we might find (pay attention, now, this is the hard part:) in the long run, one leads from another. By now it should be obvious it's the short-sighted who are fucking us all up:

Happiness is an activity.

अनामित म्हणाले...

Interesting link, Freeman. It's something I wonder about. My mom has said many times that staying together for the kids (for as long as they did) was important and the best thing for us. Having struggled with my own tendency to mimic their behavior, I wonder about it.

My parents fought a lot for a time when I was a kid, and I know that I heard the phrase "move out" mentioned at least once; things could be pretty miserable sometimes. (My dad has a job that requires a lot of travel, and sometimes I looked forward to his trips just to stop the fighting.)

I was an avid reader, and a lot of young adult books at the time (80's-90's) had divorce themes, and I was pretty convinced that they were going to get divorced at any time. I even looked forward to it, because, again, I hated the fighting.

But, as I got a little bit older, I started to look at the crappy, crappy lives that my peers with divorced parents were having, the juggling around, or the purely absent fathers. I realized that I was really lucky to not have that issue, much less the psychological issues that my friends seemed to carry. I didn't like the fighting, but I never felt rejected by my parents, they were always there when we needed them, and I grew up into a very secure adult, with a fabulously happy marriage of my own. I realize that it's not data, but I think that I can definitely tell a difference in my peers, even now, whose parents divorced growing up from those whose didn't. And it's not a positive one.

I certainly wish that my parents wouldn't have fought as much- that's something that they could certainly have done a better job at. But I'm very grateful that they didn't destroy the family, and I have respect for them for that. There are 4 of us kids, and we've avoided just about all of the traps that you worry about kids falling into- I'm sure that that wouldn't have been the case if they'd gotten divorced.

- Lyssa

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

"Life" ain't hard, people are stupid.

Meade म्हणाले...

“The primary story here is not that interesting,”[says Bob Ennis, former husband of TV reporter Carol Anne Riddell] “People lie and cheat and steal all the time. That’s a fact of life. But rarely does a national news organization give them an unverified megaphone to whitewash it.”

“No, I wasn’t contacted or interviewed or given any opportunity to opine on any of it, including having my seven-year-old daughter’s picture in the paper.”

Meade म्हणाले...

Ann Althouse said...
I was divorced for 20 years before I remarried, my first husband remarried 15+ years ago, and Meade was divorced before I met him.

Also, before we met, all three of our children were adults. Our youngest was one year from college graduation.

Michael म्हणाले...

Heh, this is what we get when we decided that how we felt mattered more than anything, more than our children, more than our souls. Ever heard of someone being declared cured by their "analyst?" Me either. We have a huge industry devoted to the notion that you should feel good, that you should be fulfilled, that you should not be denied or impeded in your march to pure unadulterated happiness. These people in this article are the ne plus ultra of this, the perfect reflection of a generation gone to puke.

aronamos म्हणाले...

Meade, thanks for posting the link. The Forbes guy is doing good reporting on this, far better than the original Times reporter did.

Some stories aren't mean to be "feel-good" and this was, if anything, an unforced error by the Times.

I was thinking today that these people are the survivors of the "Less Than Zero" era, those people who were 20something in the mid-1980s, little hedonists with big shoulder pads and bangs and drug habits.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

So Crack, you would have me live the rest of my life faithful to my first husband, even when he has remarried? And you're not religious? This is just the principle of the vow to you? How do you know what vows were taken when I married for the first time, by the way?

And don't all of you people realize that Meade and I are following a policy of nondisclosure about huge swaths of our private lives — from both before and after we met?

Tank म्हणाले...

Meade and Ann

I don't think anyone who reads here regularly takes what Crack says about you seriously. He's got some personal issues that he projects on others. His views conflating you with this couple are simply illogical.

Michael said...

Heh, this is what we get when we decided that how we felt mattered more than anything, more than our children, more than our souls. Ever heard of someone being declared cured by their "analyst?" Me either. We have a huge industry devoted to the notion that you should feel good, that you should be fulfilled, that you should not be denied or impeded in your march to pure unadulterated happiness.


Michael, while cured is not the word I'd use, you show here your ignorance regarding analysis, and the many people who have been helped there.

Trooper York म्हणाले...

"And don't all of you people realize that Meade and I are following a policy of nondisclosure about huge swaths of our private lives — from both before and after we met?"

Well you have to cut the Crack Emcee some slack. All the photo essays of half eaten pieces of pizza confused him. Just sayn"

Trooper York म्हणाले...

Plus if you are on reality TV or have a big time blog.....you kind of have to expect that a lot of your personal stuff is gonna come out. It is just the way it is.

Trooper York म्हणाले...

I mean I don't want to know about Instapundit's shoe fetish but there you go.

Trooper York म्हणाले...

Mickey Kaus's goat.

Trooper York म्हणाले...

Pam Gellar's strap on.

Trooper York म्हणाले...

All that stuff comes out eventually.

kjbe म्हणाले...

There are 4 of us kids, and we've avoided just about all of the traps that you worry about kids falling into- I'm sure that that wouldn't have been the case if they'd gotten divorced.

Lyssa, thanks for sharing that, but I don’t know if I’d attribute that to not getting divorced. There are 4 of us kids, too, but our results, with the parents staying together, were not as successful – some of us did fall into those traps – not because they stayed together, but because of the emotional chaos the household was constantly in. Sounds like you had more stability in that area. BTW, I always imagined divorce, as well.

On the other side, we had friends with two young sons that divorced years ago. They handled it with about as much grace and focus on the kids’ wellbeing as I think is possible (sharing custody by giving the kids the house, with them moving in and out). Both have remarried and continue to share in each other’s lives.

damikesc म्हणाले...

I'm almost positive the professor was single when she went out with Meade. Don't know about him, but I assume the same.

This really isn't comparable.

अनामित म्हणाले...

You're right, to a degree, k*thy (boy, your name is hard to type- my fingers just don't agree with it!). Of course, my family's experience is only our own, but I think that it is, generally, a good example of what parents who are less than happy in their marriage should do.

Sometimes, it's not; it depends on a lot of factors, of course. And, of course, parents who are distressed have a duty to keep their kids out of it (which my parents didn't do a great job of, although I think they did better than many). (In other words, in situations like the one that you described, I'd fault the parents for not making the best of things, not for not getting divorced.) But that's my opinion, and I know it's not a popular one.

I wonder why more people don't do what you described- let the kids have the house and switch out parents? It's one of those things about selfishness, I think. The moving back and forth seems like one of the worst parts of it, to me.

And, on the traps, I hope that I didn't suggest that good parenting gets out of all of the traps. Sometimes, for example, getting knocked up (yeah, I'm thinking of the Palins- who may be terrible parents, but I think they're probably OK), it just takes one bad decision, something every kid is susceptable to. But, even if a kid falls into one trap, good parents tend to help them bounce back.

Also, when I was going over my family, I realized that 1) My brother studied journalism (although he's not found a job in it); 2) I'm a lawyer, the only thing worse than a journalist; and 3) my sister's a teacher, who should be replaced by a robot. (The youngest is still in school.) Trooper York would have our heads!

- Lyssa

Meade म्हणाले...

Actually, it is comparable. From what I've read, I totally sympathize with Bob Ennis.

Michael म्हणाले...

rdkraus: "Michael, while cured is not the word I'd use, you show here your ignorance regarding analysis, and the many people who have been helped there."

On the contrary, I am not only not ignorant regarding analysis I am willing to repeat my question, in a slightly different way. Have you ever known an analyst who declared that the "patient" no longer required his/her attendance?

Kirk Parker म्हणाले...

Crack,

With all due respect--and I mean that seriously, you are totally on the mark regarding the "soul of the nation" aspect...

But being an atheist, perhaps you have rejected the very notions of grace and redemption along with the transcendent?

At any rate, we don't know anything about our hosts' prior experience, do we? For all we know RLC was totally unwilling to continue the relationship, and then what could Althouse have done? Don't forget, the very source of your lifetime-commitment ethic does list some exceptions.

And to pile on with the others, yes there is a vast and vile difference between having ones active betray of the commitment trumpeted in the NYT (as what-some kind of example???) and some people picking up the pieces a decade or more down the road.

wv: obagon -- the change we're hoping for in 2012.

Peter Hoh म्हणाले...

John McG, I'm not employing a tu quoque when I ask if Newt and Callista should be held to the same standard.

I am not trying to excuse the behavior of the couple in the column, nor am I trying to invalidate the criticism of them. I am simply asking that the same standards applied to them be applied across the board.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

rdkraus,

I don't think anyone who reads here regularly takes what Crack says about you seriously. He's got some personal issues that he projects on others. His views conflating you with this couple are simply illogical.

I don't conflate Ann and Meade with this couple. Just as the rest of you are focusing on something other than marriage (the kids, cheating, etc.) I'm choosing a different frame and, yea, Ann and Meade do fit within it. There's nothing illogical about it, unless you can't follow a train of thought.

Ann,

So Crack, you would have me live the rest of my life faithful to my first husband, even when he has remarried?

What's the point of vows when you plan on abandoning them because they become inconvenient? That's Boomer logic if ever there was any. Have you ever heard rappers say, "Word is bond"? What do you think that means? We're nothing if our words mean nothing - and everyone's catching on to that.

And you're not religious?

Nope, not even a little.

This is just the principle of the vow to you?

See above.

How do you know what vows were taken when I married for the first time, by the way?

Now we're into the Boomer "we're going to change the world" bullshit again. Sorry, didn't happen. You married a douche, accept it. I married a loon. Nobody's perfect and life ain't fair. It ain't all about the imagery.

And don't all of you people realize that Meade and I are following a policy of nondisclosure about huge swaths of our private lives — from both before and after we met?

Of course - same here - but the truth comes out, just as there are lies of ommisssion, by what's said and not said. I noticed you didn't highlight - or bother to discuss in the context of you two and I - the Adam Corrola quote I posted in my subhead yesterday. You went for the "we're all going to be girls" thing and not the part I emailed you about Oprah, Whole Foods, lawyers and submissive husbands. Why? That kind of thing speaks volumes.

I mean, how can I (one of your regular and favorite commenters) be yelling my point of view - and I prove Adam Corrola, Jonah Goldberg, Bill Whittle, and Neil Davenport, all see the same negative Nazi-like phenom happening culturally - and you say nothing? All you - a lawyer - and Meade say is I'm wrong.

Prove me wrong, is what I say.

Tank म्हणाले...

Michael

Yes, of course, and I'm not the only one.

You are ignorant about that AND about what analysis is about.

अनामित म्हणाले...

I'm not employing a tu quoque when I ask if Newt and Callista should be held to the same standard.

Peter Hoh, did Mr. Gingrich have underaged children at the time? (I'm honestly asking; I know that he has child(ren), but I don't know how old they were then.) If he didn't, then it's still bad and should be highly condemned, although there's a point where it's less of the public's business (note that I didn't say none), but if he did (as this couple did) then it is much worse, in my eyes, and far more of a concern for the public, who has to deal with the fallout of children of torn apart families.

Either way, Mr. and Ms. Gingrich never asked me to celebrate their union (that I'm aware of- I too young to really be interested when he was in power), and this article feels to many like this couple is. That's all the more offensive as well. But, no, Mr. Gingrich doesn't and shouldn't get a pass.

- Lyssa

Meade म्हणाले...

Crack, as far as "favorite" commenters, I'm pretty sure she really only has one and he goes by the name Palladian.

Prove me wrong.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Ann,

You're a Constitutional lawyer. What is the Constitution but "words"? What are the oaths we take but "words" - if politicains violate those words they go to jail (except good time Charlie Rangel, of course).

And, yea, you are committed, still, to your husband - that's why you took Meade to meet him.

Like I said, I'm bothered by the degradation of marriage. You married already. That you, 20 years later, "found love" with Meade is fine - but you, both, were already married.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Meade,

You and Ann have an amazing capacity for avoiding a topic in favor of bullshit.

You belong together, and I'm happy for you.

Peter Hoh म्हणाले...

Lyssa, the standard objection here is that this couple began a romantic relationship while married to other people, whom they subsequently divorced.

That there are young children involved is also significant, but I don't think that most commenters would give them a pass if there were no children involved.

But in the end, yes, it's good to hear that your moral compass is not influenced by the political leanings of the people involved.

Peter Hoh म्हणाले...

Crack, what exactly are the jilted spouses in the NYT supposed to do, according to your code?

Their respective spouses left them. Are they supposed to live alone the rest of their lives?

Roger J. म्हणाले...

A paean to the narcissistic generation--worthless pieces of shit all and fortunately we have the sewer that is the NYT to memorialize it for us.

Unknown म्हणाले...

Apparently Crack is in favor of misery and martyrdom when it comes to marriages gone bad.

Glad I'm not!!!!

Marriages sometimes need to end. And, when they do, it should be in as dignified a manner as possible.


Regarding the Narcissistic Couple of the Year: Divorcing your spouse for your friend's spouse, then having your buddies at the NYT write a puff piece about it, is not so dignified. Nothing they did shows even an iota of class or dignity.

I am happy for their former spouses because they, at relatively young ages, can move on with their lives with better quality partners, should they so choose. I guess in Crack's world, they'd be saddled with the two jackasses pursuing their bliss.

traditionalguy म्हणाले...

Crack...IMO you are using one hand clapping by quoting the Law of Moses, like John the Baptist did to Herod, and then ignoring the mercy shown to Christians. The Christian faith adds that mercy and also adds in common sense. If a man or woman committed adultery under the Law of Moses, the innocent spouse is released to remarry by reason of the offending spouse's immediate death carried out under that same Law. Paul adds a proviso to Christians that if a spouse leaves them they are is Freed from bondage to their vows and may remarry. Using the Law of Sin and Death puts people into a box, but also provides ways out.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Peter Hoh,

Crack, what exactly are the jilted spouses in the NYT supposed to do, according to your code?

Their respective spouses left them. Are they supposed to live alone the rest of their lives?


Who says you have to live alone? Just don't claim to be getting married again - you've already been married and, by definition, it's a one-shot deal - what's so hard about that?

And it's not my code, it's what marriage is - where did you grow up? Are there any more common practices you need defined for you?

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Laura,

Apparently Crack is in favor of misery and martyrdom when it comes to marriages gone bad.

Glad I'm not!!!!


Jesus, you guys leap to some crazy conclusions! And one of the things I find fascinating is that no one can admit they fucked up/are wrong/are crazy, etc. If that simple act was accomplished, maybe more marriages wouldn't have "gone bad" to begin with. Even more fascinating to me, since marriage is a public act, is the cowardice NewAge culture requires - no one pass judgement on anyone except in the most severe NYT examples! If more people got involved and said, "Dan/Danielle, you're wrong and being a real shit" we'd have fewer problems as well. Instead, you all hide your faces and watch the destruction happen in slow motion, thinking of yourselves as good people when you're nothing of the kind:

You're cowards.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Kirk Parker,

Sorry about missing you, I'm at work:

Being an atheist, perhaps you have rejected the very notions of grace and redemption along with the transcendent?

No, not at all - I'm familiar with them and have experienced them in my life - they aren't religious/spiritual concepts but aspects of life. It's the fact so few others embrace them, being selfish/short-sighted, etc. - that drives me nuts. Even in this discussion, how many others are arguing for a higher good? Most just want to say what scumbags these two are (which I agree with) but to say we have to do better seems beyond them. Like most people, the idea most endorse is to argue for what's convenient, self-serving, or whatever.

That outlook is what's wrong today:

The gross immaturity towards what it means to be/do good.

knox म्हणाले...

As usual, the usual suspects are unhealthily interested in Althouse personally.

They all jump on any chance they get to harp on grudges that are years old and tired at this point. It's sad.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

Crack, you really do not know the vows that were taken when I married the first time.

Also, if you are not religious, and if you don't think the vows are promises to God but only promises the 2 human beings make to each other, then it all depends on what the promises were. And 2 people who make a contract can also agree to modify the contract, unless somehow the original contract was that it would not be modifiable.

There are things I could say that would nail down my point much more securely, but out of a sense of privacy, I won't do it.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Ann,

Crack, you really do not know the vows that were taken when I married the first time.

But I did mention the bogus "we're going to change the world" aspect of Boomers making up their own silly vows - either you got married and declared life-long devotion or you didn't and weren't ever married to begin with - which was it? (And did everything you assholes did come with an escape clause for when you got caught? Fucking losers.)

Also, if you are not religious, and if you don't think the vows are promises to God but only promises the 2 human beings make to each other, then it all depends on what the promises were.

Now you're not only being slippery but pretending you can't read - marriages (and marriage vows) are "public acts" - not just between two people (or, in your case, at least four) but to all of us.

And 2 people who make a contract can also agree to modify the contract, unless somehow the original contract was that it would not be modifiable.

Yea, I remember the day I found out what she was up to and that bitch started calling our 20 year marriage a "relationship" (that was, in "no-fault" world, what you call agreeing to modify the contract). That's also when I knew she'd gone mad, or became a lawyer, or something. Is this really the best you can do? Was the brown acid contagious?

There are things I could say that would nail down my point much more securely, but out of a sense of privacy, I won't do it.

Yea, you're like the WikiLeaks guy - everybody but yours because yours are, oh, so special.

Speaking of the importance of privacy - hey, Meade, did you figure out my real name yet?

You guys, with your easy hypocrisy, "crack" me up. Seriously, why can't Boomers just admit they screwed up and see if we'll still love them or not? I mean, just because you sold your souls (and betrayed your parents) doesn't mean the rest of us don't have one, y'know? We didn't follow you. To keep lying, and playing charades of this kind, is what's insulting.

Personally, I think y'all spent too many years smoking pot and watching "Let's Make A Deal".

Joan म्हणाले...

You guys, with your easy hypocrisy,

I'm confused, Crack -- aren't you divorced? You refer frequently to your (murderous) ex-wife.

What exactly is it that puts you in a position to criticize Althouse, Meade, and everyone else who is divorced? The fact that you haven't remarried?

And how do you know, exactly, that none of us ever admits we're wrong? You make far too many assumptions, perhaps the most egregious being that what you see reported in the NYT and other pop culture outlets actually represents the behavior and morality of the majority of the population. The response to this story proves otherwise, if you'd only ratchet your outrage down a few notches to see it.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Joan,

I'm confused, Crack -- aren't you divorced? You refer frequently to your (murderous) ex-wife.

Now that I understand. I rave against "no fault" and all the rest because, as I've made clear (though you may have missed it) I held no role in my marriage once the events that led to the divorce started. Here's what I got:

Wife's under the influence of a cult? She can do that and there's nothing her husband can say or do.

Wife's sleeping with a cult member? She can do that and there's nothing her husband can say or do.

Wife's giving your money to the cult/cult member? She can do that and there's nothing her husband can say or do.

Wife and the cult/cult member killed her mother? You're black (and naturally jealous she's sleeping around) and, based on that theory, we don't have to investigate your "crazy theories" - until two years after the divorce is finalized, and we discover they've killed two more people, and their families complained to the point where the authorities finally ask for the (supposedly former) husband's help.

That's how it worked in my case and - most important to me now - in my country. There was, and is, nothing right about any of it, and I see it still in many of the positions and assumptions taken by others daily.

What exactly is it that puts you in a position to criticize Althouse, Meade, and everyone else who is divorced? The fact that you haven't remarried?

I didn't know a sense of superiority was necessary for criticism - I thought it was about the issues - but whatever. I can't remarry - my wife isn't dead.

And how do you know, exactly, that none of us ever admits we're wrong? You make far too many assumptions, perhaps the most egregious being that what you see reported in the NYT and other pop culture outlets actually represents the behavior and morality of the majority of the population. The response to this story proves otherwise, if you'd only ratchet your outrage down a few notches to see it.

Puh-Leaze. I'm not impressed that y'all are upset by this NYT article, you're all still focused on bullshit. This NYT article isn't about cheating, or the kids, or anything the rest of you are upset about - it's about what you've all (including those in the NYT article) done to marriage. I am alone, here, in defending the institution - and just as in my "divorce" - I always prove to be a much more attractive target to attack than the forces that have brought that institution low. That's how I know you can't admit wrong:

You always prove to be cowards against the major forces arrayed against us - or questioning yourselves - but you're always brave enough to take on a lone guy armed with nothing but his integrity - which, no matter how long you know him, you'll also always call into question.

It's NewAge to the core.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Exit questions (I guess):

What message does it send to newlyweds, about the commitment they face, when you've been married more than once?

Why should they even bother to take it seriously when you found a reason not to?

What example are you setting for children - and what explanation do you give them at a wedding?

If you can't keep your word, regarding the most profound personal event in your life, what good is it regarding lesser things?

And, ultimately, what are you saying about yourself? Your society? Is it any wonder that, since the 60s, nobody really likes or trusts us anymore?

And I can't help thinking about the last period - the Bush years - when so many women were convinced he (who we now know was a good man) was evil incarnate because he was a "cowboy". He hadn't had the "snakes and snails and puppy dog tails" beat out of him - which we needed when trouble came. How many other women abandoned good men for silly reasons, and destroyed other relationships in the process by example, ripping the fabric of society and leaving in their wake a world with less meaning, or good, than when they got there? When men acted in this fashion, we knew it was wrong. What is it now?

Anybody? Bueller?

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

One more - from Freeman's link:

Waite and Wallerstein both underscore the need for a national conversation about marriage. Politicians, Waite observes, talk about family values, but not about marriage. She wants altar-shy couples to understand the benefits of marrying rather than cohabiting.

"We have to say, even if it risks offending people, that marriage is different and better, pretty much across the board, for men, women, children, societies, communities," Waite says. "All this namby-pamby focus on relationships, intimate partners, and you and your 'significant other' is giving people the message that they're all the same. Empirically they're not. The long-run commitment, the public nature, the supported, enforceable nature is one of the big things that allows marriage to do what it does."


Exactly. most of you have done 250+ posts about everything but marriage. That's been my point all along:

You all miss the point - while imagining you've zeroed in on it - and, in typical NewAge fashion, will attack anyone who directs you to it.

Meade म्हणाले...

You all miss the point - while imagining you've zeroed in on it - and, in typical NewAge fashion, will attack anyone who directs you to it.

Do you like being humorlessly "directed" to other people's points? I guess we all don't like it either.

If I wanted to be preached to, I'd join a cult. Maybe a "macho" cult. But I don't, so I won't.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Meade,

Do you like being humorlessly "directed" to other people's points?

My ace-boon-coon on this blog is a Christian - Traditional Guy - so I think, once again, you're speaking without thinking about who you're talking to ("you're always brave enough to take on a lone guy armed with nothing but his integrity - which, no matter how long you know him, you'll also always call into question.") You can try to paint me anyway you want but until you start dealing with reality - and I'm starting to feel like reality around here - your flailing ain't gonna amount to much.

If I wanted to be preached to, I'd join a cult. Maybe a "macho" cult. But I don't, so I won't.

Me, a cult leader! What a maroon! Look, Meade, why don't you and all the other disgruntled Boomers pitch in and get a great big poster of Archie Bunker and adorn it with the word "Father" and just try to come to terms for hating him so much? You can't go around forever denying the traits that made him a man were better than whatever you've become - that much is obvious. I'm starting to think you guys are suffering from the fact that, just as you can't seem to directly speak with me, you didn't know how to reason with them either - and it wasn't their fault but yours. That's why you guys settled on this childish "we'll just do whatever we want" idea:

You've never had a firm basis for reasoning anything out - Rebel Without A Cause's "What are you rebelling against?" "What you got?" and all that.

I don't mind guidance from men, even delivered roughly. I loved my father and cherish his wisdom. I think what your generation did to all of our fathers is a crime. I also think a big difference is you guys think they deserved it because you had to fight yours over civil rights, while I think blacks were already fighting that battle without you - and winning with dignity - so, no matter what you were doing, without wisdom, you were a bad influence on it. (It was the desire to get away from you that drove the brilliant Civil Rights Movement to the corrosive Black Power bullshit.) As that reader schooled you on my blog (when you continued this crack runs a cult nonsense) until you come to grips with men, for real, you'll never strike anyone as authentic in the least, and your arguments will continue to make no sense.

You merely flail.

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