Althouse: "The South Korean military went to 'crisis status' on Tuesday..."

२३ नोव्हेंबर, २०१०

"The South Korean military went to 'crisis status' on Tuesday..."

"... and threatened military strikes after the North fired dozens of shells at a South Korean island, killing two of the South’s soldiers and setting off an exchange of fire in one of the most serious clashes between the two sides in decades."

६६ टिप्पण्या:

Joe म्हणाले...: (The Crypto Jew)

Warmongers!; २३/११/१०, २:४१ PM
test म्हणाले...: From Obama's briefing:

"Let's all keep a cool head, and not jump to conclusions. We don't want any rash action we cannot retract. So let's all keep in mind conservatives are the enemy."; २३/११/१०, २:४५ PM
Hoosier Daddy म्हणाले...: So the ROK death toll is up to 48 from unprovoked NORK attacks.

Kinda makes you wonder what it does take for the ROK to 'send a message' as it were.; २३/११/१०, २:४६ PM
exhelodrvr1 म्हणाले...: Marshal,
He didn't give a "shout out" to someone in the crowd first this time?; २३/११/१०, २:४८ PM
Joe म्हणाले...: (The Crypto Jew)

I blame Bush and the violent rhetoric of the Teabaggers, myself...though to be fair I also believe the South Koreans acted stupidly.; २३/११/१०, २:४८ PM
test म्हणाले...: That was only an excerpt. It's possible "shout outs" both preceeded and concluded his remarks.; २३/११/१०, २:५० PM
Joe म्हणाले...: (The Crypto Jew)

To put Snark aside, I don’t wish this set of decisions upon either the S Korean or US POTUS’ shoulders. Not sure there are good answers.; २३/११/१०, २:५४ PM
garage mahal म्हणाले...: I blame Charles Franklin.; २३/११/१०, २:५६ PM
Scott M म्हणाले...: I'm trying to think of a more surreal place on Earth than North Korea and coming up woefully short. I disagree with those that claim the ROK has no exports. They export sabre-rattling very effectively. That, combined with a nuclear "look at me" mind set, is definitely something to be worried about.; २३/११/१०, २:५७ PM
TWM म्हणाले...: I'm feeling all nostalgic all of a sudden. It's like 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s all over again . . .; २३/११/१०, २:५७ PM
ricpic म्हणाले...: Nothing less than an abject apology by Wonder Boy to Kim Jong-Il will defuse this crisis!; २३/११/१०, २:५८ PM
Joe म्हणाले...: (The Crypto Jew)

I disagree with those that claim the ROK has no exports.
ROk has lotsa exports, I suspect you mean the DPRK.; २३/११/१०, २:५९ PM
Geoff Matthews म्हणाले...: Nothing that a nuke can't solve.; २३/११/१०, ३:०१ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: Supposedly Kim Jong-Un, between this and the revelations about the nuclear 'facility', is trying to get the people to rally round the flag and bluff the South and the US to go back to Six Party Talks.

Wonder if this would have happened if somebody with a bit more sand in his craw were manning TOTUS?

I'm sure all the sharp notes of protest will make a difference.

PS If the ROKs are anything like what I've read about them and their conduct their conduct in 'Nam (when they captured a prisoner, they'd lop off an ear or a couple of fingers before interrogation, just to let him know it was for real), the Norks picked the wrong fight with the wrong people.

PPS Alpha, THAT's torture, BTW.

Just so you know.; २३/११/१०, ३:०२ PM
Bob म्हणाले...: Yesterday I was thinking how it sucked to tell some of my unit's soldiers that they would be mobilized for some fun in Afghanistan.

Tomorrow I may be thinking "the lucky bastards!"

We live in interesting times; २३/११/१०, ३:०३ PM
Opus One Media म्हणाले...: How can anyone possibly reason with or anticipate the actions of a nation that is led by a madman.

We can only hope, short of a very fast war, that his son isn't nearly as loony as the father.; २३/११/१०, ३:०३ PM
Scott M म्हणाले...: ROk has lotsa exports, I suspect you mean the DPRK.

D'oh. You are correct. Hoisted by my own snark. Hurts a bit.; २३/११/१०, ३:०३ PM
Scott M म्हणाले...: HD

Is there a difference between being insane and being sane but raised inside a completely sealed-off bubble of insanity?

I've often thought of a scenario where the young heir pays lips service to the hard line while gathering a loyal stable of supporters that have had enough. On the day power changes hands, he has all of the hardliners jailed or killed and announces to the world that the insanity is over.; २३/११/१०, ३:०६ PM
ndspinelli म्हणाले...: You have a new sociopath taking over in North Korea and he'll test our President who they think doesn't have a pair...just like Kennedy was tested.; २३/११/१०, ३:०९ PM
Joe म्हणाले...: (The Crypto Jew)

On the day power changes hands, he has all of the hardliners jailed or killed and announces to the world that the insanity is over.
Would seem to suggest that the “insanity” has simply taken a new form. I know you don’t mean it, but one simply does not end Stalinism, via arrests and summary executions, i.e., more Stalinism. And I cannot help but believe that the fate of Nicolae Ceausescu has not permeated the apparatus of North Korean control. After about 10-30% of the populace has been written off in a famine, when those people have control of the streets I imagine most Korean Workers Party members would long for a firing squad, rather than what might occur. In short, for the Kim Family and hangers-on, ”Apres moi le Deluge.”; २३/११/१०, ३:१० PM
exhelodrvr1 म्हणाले...: Scott M,
Who in their society in any position of power has "had enough"? Those are the only ones who have anything - they aren't going to give it up. They know they wouldn't be in power long if they started opening things up.; २३/११/१०, ३:१० PM
X म्हणाले...: Cookie, you need to control your boy.; २३/११/१०, ३:१२ PM
Penny म्हणाले...: Which is why that is a dream, Scott M.

The son's expertise is in the military. It's what he knows. Aside from what he learned at the knee of his father.; २३/११/१०, ३:१५ PM
Lyle म्हणाले...: Casus belli for South Korea. Attack those 3ft tall communist bastards!!!

End that great big concentration camp once and for all!!!

Won't happen though. They'll turn the other cheek. They'll need to get hit in Seoul before launching a counterattack.

Obama is the reason they got bombed. Wouldn't do the war games with South Korea cause the Chinese and North would get upset. So the North, until we man up, will keep doing this shit.

Fuck'm, lets make kim chee out of Kim Jung "I almost dead" Il.; २३/११/१०, ३:२२ PM
AllenS म्हणाले...: China created this mess called North Korea. There are no good answers here.; २३/११/१०, ३:२४ PM
Penny म्हणाले...: It's been said that Kim-Jong-il is a master negotiator, and few would disagree after the one, two punch delivered in short order to South Korea and the U.S.

Just in case it wasn't enough to find modern nuclear facilities in North Korea in the past month, he finishes off with a flourish of regular warfare as if it were just icing on the cake headed for that five-way discussion with the U.S., Russia, Japan, China and South Korea.; २३/११/१०, ३:२८ PM
Scott M म्हणाले...: Who in their society in any position of power has "had enough"

In reality, I don't know. In this fiction-writer's mind, a romanticized idealistic and honorable young heir and his immediate supporters. The stuff of good fiction, to be sure. No so much in line with what's likely to happen.; २३/११/१०, ३:२९ PM
Penny म्हणाले...: Kim Jong-il doesn't want to be the caterer. He wants to be catered to.; २३/११/१०, ३:३२ PM
The Scythian म्हणाले...: Penny,

There might not be any negotiations this time. North Korea is becoming increasingly brazen, and anyone with two brain cells to rub together to stay warm on a cold night can see where this is going.

There's a difference between sabre-rattling and stabbing someone with a sabre.; २३/११/१०, ३:३८ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: HDHouse said...

How can anyone possibly reason with or anticipate the actions of a nation that is led by a madman.

Yes, but, until 2012, we are stuck with The Zero and must do the best we can.; २३/११/१०, ४:१२ PM
rhhardin म्हणाले...: You cut with a sabre, not stab.

Oh sure you can stab, but it's not manly.; २३/११/१०, ४:४० PM
Cedarford म्हणाले...: edutcher said...
HDHouse said...

How can anyone possibly reason with or anticipate the actions of a nation that is led by a madman.

Yes, but, until 2012, we are stuck with The Zero and must do the best we can.

=============
To war or not is S Korea's call and not Obama or the Right-wing's Dear Mrs Palin if she replaces Zeroman.
And S Korea has to consider what backing they would have, and how many 100s of thousands or even millions they lose to NORK military strikes if war starts.

And free trade and globalism has made America China's bitch in many ways. So how China "feels" about matters is far more constraining on America's actions than it was in earlier years.

PS - I reject Henhouses "single madman" theory of history. Leaders like Stalin and Kim Il-sung and Il-Jong arise only from a system that created them.
Most N Koreans back their system.

The greatest foreign policy illusion of America in recent years (besides free trade=democracy and benefit for all) is that you get rid of the "madman" and the country rapily becomes Just Like Peoria.

The notion that Iraq just needed madman Saddam gone so they could become a stable WEstern democracy, that All Islamist Terror ends when bin Laden is "brought to Justice", and Cuba will become "Freedom-Lovers Island" once Fidel croaks is just laughable.; २३/११/१०, ४:५१ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: The Japanese must be shitting their kimonoes right about now.

Imagine having to depend on Barry to protect you?

Wait a minute.......; २३/११/१०, ४:५२ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: Cedarford, how can you analyze the Korean situation?

Last I heard there weren't a lot of Jews in Korea.; २३/११/१०, ४:५५ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: When the Koreans do something wrong do they say "Oh we screwed the pooch."

Or do they say something like "Oh we overcooked the pooch."; २३/११/१०, ४:५६ PM
Cedarford म्हणाले...: Trooper York said...
The Japanese must be shitting their kimonoes right about now.

Imagine having to depend on Barry to protect you?
=====================
What obligation exists that American lives are "owed" in Japan's defense in matters the Japanese elect that it is far better to have America paying to do what the Japanese still refuse to get involved in after 65 years.

What sense would this make:

"Americans nobly picked up the burden and defended both KOrea and Japan against aggression.

S Korean casualties were 800,000.
America's were 41,000.
Japan's were 0."

"The victory came thanks to military efforts, and Japan's help in crafting sternly worded diplomatic communiques demanding the NORK military stand down."; २३/११/१०, ५:१४ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: Iceberg....Goldberg....what's the differance.; २३/११/१०, ५:२० PM
Phil 314 म्हणाले...: We need some serious negotiations.; २३/११/१०, ५:२१ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: Sometimes I get tired and just want to post the punchline.; २३/११/१०, ५:२२ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: "You don't understand...Chunks is my dog."; २३/११/१०, ५:२२ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: "Will the defendant please rise."; २३/११/१०, ५:२३ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: "What do you mean the wrong hole?"; २३/११/१०, ५:२३ PM
Gwen म्हणाले...: I've been living in South Korea for years now. Many of the leftists here blame the *South Korean* government for the North's provocations. They say the Norks are lashing out because of Lee Myung Bak's hard-line conservative policies.

The far right oldsters are outraged that more is not being done. Most everyone else shakes their heads while muttering "Those crazy bastards" before moving on with their day.

Until their is massive public interest, I doubt the government is going to do anything except try to minimize the economic effects of these skirmishes. The won went into a freefall yesterday afternoon after the attacks, which is actually a *good* thing for Samsung/LG/Hyundai/Kia in the export-based economy.

It's just a bizarre situation all around.; २३/११/१०, ५:२६ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: "I blame Charles Franklin."

I blame Benjamin Franklin Pearce.; २३/११/१०, ५:३१ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: "Nothing that a nuke can't solve."

What Barack Obama needs to do is go and bow before Kim Jong Il and maybe suck his cock a little bit so nothing gets lost in the translation.

Obviously, Obama hasn't been obsequious enough or there would be peace on the Peninsula.; २३/११/१०, ५:३४ PM
Penny म्हणाले...: Cedarford, your point is well made.

America is assumed and expected to continue to do what she has always done for her allies. That is...to step into the breech.

Well...except when her allies don't want her to do that because that would make America a thoughtless and shameless hegemon.; २३/११/१०, ५:४४ PM
Penny म्हणाले...: No foreign policy expert here, but as an observer of international policy, I wonder why all eyes turn to the US when, bottom line, most of us can agree that "all politics are local"...Japan...Russia...China?

The Koreas are experiencing some potentially deadly "man-made virus". You are closest, and because of that, might provide assistance in short order.

You know? BEFORE the dang pestilence spreads?; २३/११/१०, ६:०७ PM
Michael म्हणाले...: Well, I think Obama should pull out all the stops on this one and say, once and for all: Stop or we shall have to say stop again!!! Real loud.; २३/११/१०, ६:११ PM
Penny म्हणाले...: Japan, Russia, China?

We'd like to help you. You KNOW we would.

It's just that we're way too busy THINKING about Mexico.; २३/११/१०, ६:१५ PM
Rialby म्हणाले...: The youth of South Korea have no idea what's going on. They've been taught for years that America is the problem and that "sunshine policy" with the North will eventually turn around a megalomaniacal dictator.; २३/११/१०, ६:१६ PM
Lem Vibe Bandit म्हणाले...: The South Korea military going to "crisis status" has the net effect of a weather report.

They are always on "crisis status".; २३/११/१०, ६:३० PM
Hoosier Daddy म्हणाले...: How can anyone possibly reason with or anticipate the actions of a nation that is led by a madman.

Is being led by a madman one of the qualifications for being part of the Axis of Evil?

Or is that just cowboy talk?; २३/११/१०, ६:३५ PM
The Drill SGT म्हणाले...: Gwen said....The far right oldsters are outraged that more is not being done.

Rialby said...
The youth of South Korea have no idea what's going on. They've been taught for years that America is the problem and that "sunshine policy" with the North will eventually turn around a megalomaniacal dictator.

Taught by the same leftist Academia

Only the old folks know the truth here. The NORKs aren't heralds of Heaven on Earth, Stalin style.

America is not the great Satan; २३/११/१०, ६:४३ PM
Crimso म्हणाले...: "I wonder why all eyes turn to the US when, bottom line, most of us can agree that "all politics are local"...Japan...Russia...China?"

I would very much agree that Russia and China have an interest in keeping the NoKo's in check, their (Russia and China) penchant for occasionally jabbing a thumb in our eye notwithstanding. I think they both know this is not the time or place to see the U.S. humbled, given how quickly this situation could spiral completely out of control.

The Japanese, on the other hand, well no one really wants to see Japan provide for their own defense, much less the defense of their foreign interests. The logical extension of the last time the Japanese felt the need to protect their supply of oil (as well as other various materials) resulted in Pearl Harbor. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, in Asia wants to see a remilitarized Japan. Better that the U.S. guarantee Japanese security.; २३/११/१०, ६:५७ PM
Penny म्हणाले...: Michael, I hear you, but if you are honest with yourself, you've got to know that we could fill in the blank with nearly any President's name who was on "watch" at the time.

Therein lay at least HALF the problem.

In our current zeitgeist, American Presidents were raised reading about or watching the few who went before them. It's no surprise that when they reach the position of President of the USA, they turn around to see what others have done before them, and to try to pick and choose that which makes some sense...and on any given day!

So FEW have gone before...

When that doesn't work as well as planned, I suspect that Presidents will look to those other Presidents who "failed" on any given day, only to decide that they will do THAT particular thing...differently.

So FEW have gone before...

I could go on, Michael, but I won't...except to say...

With the advent of the internet, we are no longer talking about putting on underpants with the "Presidential Seal".

We'll just shit all over each other for a while.

Until the pestilence...; २३/११/१०, ७:१२ PM
holdfast म्हणाले...: C4 - America assumed the burden of defending Japan because America wanted a pretty much disarmed, passive/pacifist Japan, as it was found that the militarized version was rather costly to put in its place. If America wishes to change the deal, it is free to do so (and I think it should), but it would only be decent give some notice so the Japanese can begin a rearmament program in earnest, should they decide to do so.; २३/११/१०, ७:१५ PM
Penny म्हणाले...: "Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, in Asia wants to see a remilitarized Japan."

Well...except for the South Koreans who have a lot riding on support from their Japanese neighbors...

Who appear to be predisposed to having sex with robots, if we can believe what we read?; २३/११/१०, ७:३३ PM
Fen म्हणाले...: Penny: No foreign policy expert here, but as an observer of international policy, I wonder why all eyes turn to the US when, bottom line, most of us can agree that "all politics are local"...Japan...Russia...China?

Thats a fair question.

The reason everyone looks to America is because we are the only nation that can effectively project force around the globe

Diplomacy is worse than useless unless its backed by the threat of force.

China intends to control the Pacific Rim, so it will be interesting to see how they pull the strings of their NORK proxy.; २३/११/१०, ७:४५ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: "The President reiterated the unshakeable support of the United States for our ally, the Republic of Korea, and discussed ways to advance peace and security on the Korean peninsula going forward."

This statement is deliberate.

What it means in "State Department Language" is that President Obama has decided to allow Kim Jong Il to get away with this attack.

Obama doesn't want to talk about "how the United States will react to this unprovoked attack on its ally."

Obama wants to talk about ways to advance peace and security "going forward."

Even the North Koreans can't miss such a signal. Obama is saying there will be no American response to this unprovoked attack on our ally.

It's also telling that nobody in the White House even knows how to spell "unshakable."; २३/११/१०, ८:१३ PM
Revenant म्हणाले...: Honestly, I don't want us getting involved here. South Korea has the money, manpower and motive to fight and defeat North Korea by itself.

I'm fine with us selling them all the weapons they want to buy. But they should fight their own wars. We fought their last one and what have we got to show for it, aside from a whole lot of ungrateful South Koreans?; २३/११/१०, ९:३० PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: We fought their last one and what have we got to show for it, aside from a whole lot of ungrateful South Koreans?

I strongly suspect that a lot of South Koreans (particularly the ones who were around in the 1950s) would beg to differ with you.

Word verification: inaga; २३/११/१०, ११:१८ PM
The Scythian म्हणाले...: Rhhardin wrote:

"You cut with a sabre, not stab.

Oh sure you can stab, but it's not manly."

I know that! I used the word 'stab' for a reason -- the North Koreans aren't quite slashing yet.; २४/११/१०, १२:३१ AM
Penny म्हणाले...: Revenant, understandable, but surely you understand that whatever "dance" we do is now "judged" by those with not a whit of rhythm?; २४/११/१०, १२:३६ AM
Penny म्हणाले...: "That's a fair question."

And a nice beginning for dialogue, Fen.

And if I had to imagine friends sitting around talking about what happened today in the Koreas?

Without a doubt, it would be neat to have you here with us.

Think you can make it, Fen?; २४/११/१०, १२:४६ AM
Gwen म्हणाले...: @Lem-

One would suspect that the South Korean military is always operating in crisis mode, but I don't think that is the case at all. My husband is Korean, and the stories he tells me of his time as a conscript are baffling. Korean bases are guarded by 20 year olds with unloaded guns for Christ's sake!

@Penny-

I can say with near certainty that South Korea does not want to see a re-militarized Japan. Generally speaking, South Koreans *hate* the Japanese and remain deeply distrustful of them.

Perchance have you ever heard of the Korean/Japanese territorial dispute over the islets of Dokdo/Takeshima? The total area of the land is 46 acres, but the Koreans get worked into an unbelievable frenzy over the Japanese claim to control. A very sizable portion of the citizenry is convinced that the Japanese will use these islets as a stepping stone to re-annexing the peninsula. No joke.

@Revenant- I agree that it is time for South Korea to stand alone an fight its own wars. I have been heartened to see the television coverage here in Korea is focused on how the South Korean government is/should be handling the situation. I see quotes of official US statements, but from what I can tell, nobody is looking to Washington to handle things. Of course, who knows what is being said behind closed doors.

Revenant is also pretty much spot on about the general ungratefulness of many Koreans. Again, the oldsters who lived through the war are very pro-US / anit-Nork, but they are a dying breed.; २४/११/१०, ५:१९ AM
Opus One Media म्हणाले...: .....Beware of psychopaths from the north who travel as father and son.......; २४/११/१०, १:१९ PM