Presumably, some people will watch, but why exactly? What do they think they're going to get out of it?
In convening Thursday’s bipartisan health session, President Obama is angling to recreate the kind of spontaneous, unscripted debate that gave him a decided advantage when he took questions on live television at a House Republican retreat in Baltimore last month.So some Obama supporters will watch in an effort to perceive Obama's awesome dominance and then to sit back and feel optimistic about health care reform — or maybe to blog about why their perceptions are so true.
But this time, Mr. Obama will face adversaries who are well prepared to joust with him on the finer points of health policy before a large audience that will be judging both sides and looking for signs of bipartisanship.And some Obama opponents will watch in an effort to perceive the demolition of Obama's hopes 'n' dreams and then to sit back to enjoy the continuation of the downward spiral of health care reform — or maybe to blog about why their perceptions are so true.
Most normal people, I think, are sick of hearing politicians talking about health care.
IN THE COMMENTS: People are live-blogging the big show. For example, rhhardin says:
Ha. I listened for 20 seconds, and in that time Obama did his rhetorical tic
1. Tell a lie
2. "and that's why," followed by a bad idea.
Not that anybody should make it a drinking game.
पोस्ट्स
३९२ टिप्पण्या:
392 पैकी 1 – 200 नवीन› नवीनतम»Coming soon to a US hospital near you:
"An independent inquiry found that managers at Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust stopped providing safe care because they were preoccupied with government targets and cutting costs.
Staff shortages at Stafford Hospital meant that patients went unwashed for weeks, were left without food or drink and were even unable to get to the lavatory. Some lay in soiled sheets that relatives had to take home to wash, others developed infections or had falls, occasionally fatal. Many staff did their best but the attitude of some nurses “left a lot to be desired”."
This is like watching Pearl Harbor getting attacked for the 49th time, because the Japanese missed on the first 48 attempts. We cannot let down and relax because there is still a deadly enemy with his loyal News Media screen and he still has real bombs and a chance to get through the defenses this time. We need to vote the under cover Communist out of our White House.
I'm not going to watch. I'll wash my hair instead.
I watched a flock of about 30 cedar waxwings having breakfast in my ornamental pear this morning. I would much rather watch that display than another Obama dog and pony show any day.
I read the article....the NHS is medieval.
No matter what health-care atrocities they commit they still have hordes of apologists.
I'll treat it like the Pro Bowl. Only interesting enough to watch the highlight reel.
Honestly, the posturing by the administration means this will be worse than a dog and pony show...more like a six-year-old beauty pageant and probably as creepy. The GOP seems to be playing this one close to the vest and haven't really revealed what they're planning.
More amateur hour from the administration in the form of leaking that there's a Plan B at 25% of the trillion already estimated. I just can't see the upside of releasing that tidbit of info prior to going into negotiations on Plan A.
I am heartened, though, that the whole nuclear option thingy might be a moot point. There is serious doubt that any form of healtcare reform can clear the house (which only passed the original version with 4 votes to spare). A year ago, almost 3/4 of Americans were for the Dems reforming healthcare. Now it's almost 3/4 against.
The end result? Much ado about nothing coming out of this meeting. I don't believe Blaire House is covered by the Congressional immunity rules, so I doubt we'll see a Senator Sumner-type beat down...more's the pity.
I'm sick of hearing Obama talk period. I can't listen to him.
I'm sick of hearing them discuss this giant healthcare plan, which is clearly not popular enough with the public to merit passing; shouldn't something this significant register at 75 or 80% approval to be passed? At 45% they should just get the message and kill it. Let's see, what group continues to bring back "programs" year after year until they gradually get them enacted? Hmmmm? Obama won't give up. He is a committed idealogue (like me). He believes in gov't and is going to give it you whether you want it or not, because he knows better than you.
I'm not interested in bipartisanship. For all of the many good reasons discussed for months (seems like years), I just want them to kill this. Bipartisanship, like diversity, is overrated.
There are actually relatively (compared to the President's monstrous bill) inexpensive ways to vastly improve health insurance and drive down costs. Many people have suggested them. They too are well known.
I hope most people can recognize this for the political trick/trap that it is. The Republicans know it, but are going anyway (they don't want to risk the "empty chair" debate debacle).
When Obama is ready to talk about tort reform meaningful enough to reduce defensive medicine, then we'll know he's serious about bending the cost curve down. Until then, it's about something else.
Preliminary statements should drive away the entire audience.
I agree with tradguy...we can't relax. While I admire the stand-together attitude of the Republicans and I hope they can stick with it, I still don't trust them. I hope Scott is right and it ends up being much ado about nothing.
I wonder why it's even being televised. To prove it happened? Like this is supposed to make us thing they are doing something?
I think every lobbyist in DC will be tuned in and watching with rapt attention. They'll be taking notes and recording everything that is said.
Has this happened b4 where a president's agenda had been rejected in the polls and failed to pass the senate and they have just unrelated and keep it alive?
This is unpresedented (to an Obamism)
I think the GOP should do exactly as Dennis Miller suggested (yes, he's a former comedian, but it's funny and smart nonetheless).
Let the President make his comments. When you get your five minutes, simply list the five main points you want to achieve to reform health care and cede the remaining time back to the Dems. When they bloviate in response without really discussing any of those points and your turn comes back around, simply list your five points again and cede the rest of your time.
Miller called it the "name, rank, and serial number approach." I doubt very seriously they will do this, but it would be priceless to watch.
I might watch to see if this happens: Desperate to Advance His Agenda, Obama Adds Bacon to Widely Unpopular Health Care Bill http://optoons.blogspot.com/2010/02/desperate-to-advance-his-agenda-obama.html
I might watch to see if this happens: Desperate to Advance His Agenda, Obama Adds Bacon to Widely Unpopular Health Care Bill http://optoons.blogspot.com/2010/02/desperate-to-advance-his-agenda-obama.html
"Most normal people, I think, are sick of hearing politicians talking about health care."
Yes. Sick of it.
CNN poll shows that only 25% now approve of Obamacare.
What I am sick of hearing? The democrat's claim that tax-payer funded health care is "competition".
It's not a free market economic model. No matter, the dems just keep hammering away at their manipulative and dishonest agenda.
I have CNN on and they are discussing it with Kathleen Sebelius. She seems aloof and almost uninterested in arguing the case for OBamacare. She focuses on bashing profit, exec salaries, etc.
She is a onetime lobbyist and her lack of passion for her side makes me believe this meeting will get ugly. The Dems will not bend at all on anything.
Here is the breakdown on NRO:
The support/opposition split on the health care bill, according to various pollsters:
Rasmussen: 41/56
Newsweek: 40/49
Public Policy Polling: 39/50
Pew: 38/50
Quinnipiac: 35/54
Ipsos/McClatchy: 37/51
NBC/WSJ: 31/46
CNN: 38/58
NPR: 39/55
Why are the most powerful people in our gov't wasting any time on this at all?
@MadisonMan
I wonder why it's even being televised.
The real reason? Scott Brown got elected.
If I were there and had the occasion to ask a direct question to the President in the opening minutes of the meeting, it would be, "Mr. President. If the Congress would have successfully passed the current legislation and sent it to your desk, would you have signed it?" I expect the President would answer that yes he would have.
This meeting almost becomes moot at that point because the only reason they're doing this and televising it is because they ran into the "buzz saw" and broke significant transparency promises to begin with. Otherwise, this would never occur.
"Why are the most powerful people in our gov't wasting any time on this at all?"
Because they won't get another chance to install socialism in the US for another 30 years. It's a 'by any means necessary' approach.
Of course I'm not going to watch it.
Obama will make a speech, Dems will talk, Pubs will talk. The 'new' Obamacare program will be worse than the first 2 multi-thousand page versions and will include nothing to attract any opposition votes. The President and Dems will continue to refuse to compromise one single jot or tittle.
The media will say the Pubs are racist and they're blocking the program, ignoring the large Dem majorities in both houses and the President's incompetence at being a functional chief executive and hoping the public will do the same.
Some Republican will say something that will sound stupid in a sound bite. Some Democrat will do the same thing. The Pub will get a lot of attention for his gaffe, the Dem not so much.
Why would I sit and watch that when I can (ahem) let bloggers do it for me? Instead I'll probably watch Forrest Gump, which I recorded on AMC last night.
I'm going to put it on if I can find it. I anticipate a dreadfully boring dog and pony show, with all the gravitas of an early campaign speech to Rotarians. But one never knows what politicians will say when they don't have full control of the conversation. I have to think the Dems don't really want any headlines coming out of this other than "they really, really tried".
Now I just have to go find this C-Span Ocho or whatever the hell it is.
Picking lint out of my navel or watching the health care summit. Jeez, I do not know. Maybe I can do both at the same time?
I know President Obama is a great debater and all, but I'm thinking that this whole clam bake could backfire on him. Why? Because when he dons his 'professor' role schooling the Obstructionists, he becomes a scold to many regular folk. "Calling people out" doesn't go over well here in the Heartland. (By the way that term is derived from urban/gang culture.)
On a related note, have you noticed how many pix of Obama in the print media now show him 'angry'? Another nonstarter to many. Also it can be construed as somewhat racial as in "angry black man".
Bashing industry is all they have left. Alinsky lives!
Evil profit! Must tax people and provide a "public option" so that we can bankrupt those evil tax payers and also bankrupt the insurance industry. Then government run health care becomes inevitable. Sweet mother lode.
I would LOVE to watch a summit to discuss:
1) Abolishing Medicare, Medicaid & Social Security.
2) Eliminating HUD.
3) Eliminating DOE (both of them).
4) Eliminating the increasingly tyrannical EPA.
5) Cutting the total number of Federal employees by a minimum of 50%.
That would be a good start.
Maybe there will be a cameo appearance by Michelle Obama. She can tell stories about the evil hospital that she worked for, and the wonderful reform that she proposed.
Why are the most powerful people in our gov't wasting any time on this at all?
They are never going to give up.
And Bush was called hardheaded.
Live blog it Althouse. You don't have to watch it - Just open a post where people can make comments about it if they are watching it.
I actually have C-Span 3!
Channel one thousand, nine hundred and nineteen on my local cable system. Seriously.
They are streaming it live on cspan.org, if anyone cares. I suppose I'll go ahead and keep a small window open on the ol' second monitor. I would truly hate to miss one of these Congress critters get picked up by a pissed off killer whale.
She can tell stories about the evil hospital that she worked for, and the wonderful reform that she proposed.
Maybe she didn't get paid enough to offer ideas for reform. Has anyone talked to Michelle about healthcare? Not that I've seen, and isn't that a little weird? She used to be some kind of administrator, so you'd think that would be an interesting interview. Much better than asking her about her garden.
Maybe she didn't get paid enough to offer ideas for reform
I heard she was making in excess of $300,000. For that kind of money, I'd offer a lot of ideas.
I'd rather watch one of those early presidential primary debates with 7-8 canidates. And I never watch those.
What's to watch? A President who is now spending his 2nd year in office trying to get a hugely unpopular piece of legislation passed?
If I wanted to watch a trainwreck I'd find a Youtube video of Biden or Pelosi trying to construct a sentence.
The President has arrived and is making his way around the large tables, arranged in a square (are there four sides to this debate?).
Let's see; we can watch it on anti-TV C-Span-3 while driving through the latest snow storm, or see the rerun tonight on C-Span-viewable - or watch Kim Yu-na win the gold medal in woman's figure skating.
Uh...
Ha. I listened for 20 seconds, and in that time Obama did his rhetorical tic
1. Tell a lie
2. "and that's why," followed by a bad idea.
Not that anybody should make it a drinking game.
wow, what an interesting read:
Q: haters do you still hate?
A: why yes!
Most normal people, I think, are sick of hearing politicians talking about health care
and now the blogress will
blog about why [her]perceptions are so true
Or at least get the commentariat to.
Just btw, I hereby attest to the truth of the aforesaid perceptions.
Here's a good question. Do the Dems have any members of Congress, actually at this meeting, that are doctors? I know the GOP brought two and supposedly they are both going to address specific issues.
The President has arrived and is making his way around the large tables, arranged in a square
Imagine if they were arranged in a circle. Olberman and Maddow would be calling it the Camelot summit with Arthur(Obama) meeting with with his knights of the round table and trying to get Modred and Morgan le Fay (the GOP) to unite behind his wisdom. Rham of course would consider himself Merlin while Biden is the perfect fill in for court jester.
"A Demogogue is a Politician whose chief ambition is to stand on the grave of a great, dead industry, and boast to a multitude of unemployed of his bloody deeds."
-- Elbert Hubbard
Democrats keep trying to shove a productive private healthcare industry into the grave, but the bastard just will not go willingly.
Democrats keep trying to shove a productive private healthcare industry into the grave, but the bastard just will not go willingly.
It will eventually, until such time as we go back to the concept of having health insurance to pay for major medical/catastrophic illness and start paying out of pocket for routine care. In other words, when we start understanding that health insurance should be utilized like car insurance then costs, both medical and premiums will come down.
This isn't a difficult concept to understand. In fact, this is how the insurance industry used to work back in the day. If we continue to insist that Anthem, etc; cover everything from your annual physical to end of life care all for a $20 co-pay then don't be surprised when premiums soar.
Oh Hoosy
That horse left the barn.
That water is under the bridge.
That ....
People no longer want health insurance. They may call it that, but what they really want is for YOU to pay for their healthcare, and that they can have as much as they want.
I'm actually curious to see it: it has the potential to send this whold Health Care mess into new heights of absurdity. But I know I'll just end up pissed off and disgusted.
I watched Obama's big speech about Healthcare back in September. The lack of clarity, the trashing of doctors, and obvious lies were alarming. I'll pass.
Lem,
well done. And when you least expect it ...
Well, I made it to Pelosi. I heard pieces of Obama and Alexander, and they were reasonable, but now Peolsi is explaining how their health care bill will create jobs. "It's about jobs!" and I can't listen.
A number of steps that could be addressed one at a time that would all have a positive effect on health care, and when put together would have a siginficantly positive effect. Without damaging the economy.
1)Malpractice reform
2)Ease up on the multi-state insurance company restrictions
3)Get accurate statistics on how many people don't have coverage, who also can't afford coverage.
4)Simplify the regulations
5)Increased availability of urgent care clinics so that ERs aren't used as much
6)Make "donated time" of medical personnel deductible
7)Stop illegal immigration
if we get Obamacare, where will the Canadian Premier go for his healthcare?
Sunlight has a great stream live. It shows industry donors next to the person speaking. Here.
People no longer want health insurance. They may call it that, but what they really want is for YOU to pay for their healthcare, and that they can have as much as they want.
I agree and that, IMHO, is the lion's share of the problem with our soaring health care costs.
I recall from my days of working in the health insurance industry a study that estimated that roughly 12-17 million people in the US suffer from 'chronic illnesses', the type of conditions that would result in huge premiums or being declined altogether. So about 6% of the population.
I contend that a reasonable solution would be a Federal health care system that would pay for catastrophic cases (cancer, broken bones, necessary surgical procedures etc.) whereas the individual would be responsible for routine care either out of pocket or through some kind of supplement.
Yes there would be some people who would still incur medical costs due to medications, or other health care needs but as we were told growing up, life ain't fair. Sorry but only so much of the bad dice rolls in life should be passed off to society at large.
The scenario I have described above, contrary to popular belief, tends to mirror those 'socialist health care systems' in Europe that dampens the knickers of so many liberals.
Mike:
Pelosi really said that?! How dumb do they think we are!
"I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."
I contend that a reasonable solution would be a Federal health care system that would pay for catastrophic cases (cancer, broken bones, necessary surgical procedures etc.) whereas the individual would be responsible for routine care either out of pocket or through some kind of supplement.
The only way to control costs (without rationing) is to go back to the insurance model. I don't think the Feds are the best choice to provide the catastrophic insurance, however.
I am so sorry to hear of Obama's demolition, but optimistic that he is still a Survivor. Spontaneous angling can break health. Adversaries will be judging your effort, hopes 'n' dreams. Normal people need supporters. I found a website that might help.
Yes, AJ, she really said it.
The dems are rolling out the emotional sob stories and the Orwellian "We must do this to SAVE the deficit… for the children!"
Ugh.
Hooow - a little fireworks.
Let me finish Lamar.
Republicans are not playn dead.
Obama sure does remind me of the Japanese Army's attack strategy. It was spelled out as like the attack upon a watermelon. First you crack thru the hard husk with a sneak attack, and then you take your time eating the sweet fruit inside. We cannot let any Nationalised health care sneak thru, because it is designed to eat us up from the inside in future years. The Obama EPA's sneak attack claiming powers over the fantasy land Green House Gas World Crisis already needs to be quickly counter attacked before it gets to be a settled basis for Total Control of the Economy by Obama Czars.
Barry calls his plan "practical common sense." The guy's a scream.
AllenS, I suspect you know I was being facetious when I suggested Michelle wasn't making enough money. In my experience, the better cost-saving ideas come from people making less than $300K.
About jobs? Well, sure! Government jobs!
(The Really Handsome One)
Let me just say Health Care is a Right and we must oppose the Party of "No." How else can we fundamentally transform America?
If we don't pass ObamaCare how else can we drink from the flower vases for water and lie in our own waste?
Which is odd, the NHS is the third largest employer in the WORLD? And yet the employees can't seem to find the time to actually care for the patients....
What are/were they doing?
1)Malpractice reform
Alongside overall tort reform I agree and is way overdue.
2)Ease up on the multi-state insurance company restrictions
There is a significant push, especially on the life industry side of insurance to see insurance regulated on a Federal level instead of by each individual state. There are good reasons for this, a uniform set of laws companies can follow as opposed to various laws, regulations, mandates and multiple policy forms for each state. If McCarran-Ferguson is repealed, and there is a better than average chance it might, you’ll see state regulation go away. Whether its an
improvement remains to be seen.
3)Get accurate statistics on how many people don't have coverage, who also can't afford coverage.
Easier said than done, particularly the issue of affordable coverage.
4)Simplify the regulations
That will only happen if McCarran-Ferguson is repealed. That said, while the regulations may not be ‘simple’, they will at least be uniform which in and of itself goes a long way.
5)Increased availability of urgent care clinics so that ERs aren't used as much
We’re already seeing this sprout up with ‘mini-clinics’ in places like Kroger, Meijer etc; where a nurse practitioner can handle the routine care that I insist should be paid for by the individual. The one by my house you can get a routine physical for about $120 whereas an office visit for cold/flu etc. is about $75. Considering that this is the amount most of us pay just for our cell service on a monthly basis, I’m hard pressed to hear arguments this is unaffordable but for the poorest.
6)Make "donated time" of medical personnel deductible
Excellent idea.
7)Stop illegal immigration
I don’t think this can be emphasized enough. Simply put, you cannot have an illegal population of 10-15 million people without it having a massive impact on the health care system (not to mention public services as a whole) unless one takes the fantasy assumption that they are somehow paying for insurance that ‘47’ million American citizens can’t afford.
At this point in Mr Obama's presidency does anyone (1) believe him; or (2) give a damn
He is a serial liar--at least Tiger Woods got laid.
The only way to control costs (without rationing) is to go back to the insurance model. I don't think the Feds are the best choice to provide the catastrophic insurance, however.
I don't disagree. My suggestion for the Feds to cover cat care would be to provide an alternative to say, the young or poor who may not have the financial wherewithall or actual need for full blown health coverage. This way no one is going bankrupt because of a cat illness or accident. No one goes bankrupt over a couple physician office calls.
Hooow
Reid called the doctor a filibuster.
Why are the most powerful people in our gov't wasting any time on this at all?
Half the people think it goes too far and the other half think it doesn't go far enough.
Obama might as well have gone for single-payer -- the Republicans could hardly have been more opposed than they are. He lost another bunch of people by throwing the public option under the bus. Now it's just a mandate to fatten the pockets of the legacy insurers.
Pretending health care is not in crisis is whistling in the dark.
Pogo -- every other industrialized country controls health care costs. Are peole lying in their own wastes in France, Germany, or Holland?
Obama makes a "quick point": We want to eliminate fraud and abuse in the government systems... but that doesn't account for rising costs in the private sector.
Coburn fires back! Fraud and waste in the gov system DOES cause rising costs in the private sector. I'm not sure Obama even hears him. The O is nodding and already moving on to Steny who wants to increase competition. He says "a free market does that" then he says "an open transparent market" which must mean government care.
I'm going to need healthcare before this is over just to get my blood pressure down.
Reid called the doctor a filibuster.
Dems learn as children to let others take turns. Sen. Coburn's time ran out.
Haha. you kill me.
Melody's coming over for awhile. Wouldn't do to have senators on who couldn't pass a microphone if their lives depended on it. Then music and meerkats.
Here's the thing: I decided against the mechanism that bends the arms at the elbow and lifts them upwards tucking the hands behind the head. It's really cool and dramatic but it doesn't work reliably when there are two of them folding simultaneously. The hands block with each other on closing and they need a little extra push to fold properly. That's unacceptable. I've changed the angle of the hinges a number of times but it's always the same problem. Besides, it's un-meerkat behavior, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, that is, it could have been funny, but not in this case. This is a great trick. I'll just have to save it for something else later.
I decided instead to have the arms on a different mechanism, one that flips the extended arms from a position of straight forward at closed to downward and crossed at the hands when opened. That's the position that meerkats take to elevate their eyes that's so doggone funny. It's much simpler to do. If you're interested in peeking, here's what I'm on about. This is what has my attention presently. Passing decidedly unwelcome legislation is somebody else's obsession.
The lesson here is when something isn't working, change it if possible. When it doesn't work absolutely, accept abandoning it.
Obama's lying, alright.
The CBO can't score his vague proposal, but that didn't stop Obama from promising unicorns, roses and lollipops. (He is promising 15-20% reduction in premiums!) (Right after he taxes the future.)
ugh.
My suggestion for the Feds to cover cat care would be to provide an alternative to say, the young or poor who may not have the financial wherewithall or actual need for full blown health coverage.
I could live with that. The poor need to be provided cat coverage, either from the Feds, or with vouchers for private cat care coverage.
We want wellness.
Republicans want badness.
Health care reforms are already working!!
Docs cut work hours as primary care shortage looms
"Doctors have steadily cut their work hours over the past decade, a new study finds ....Average hours dropped from about 55 to 51 hours per week from 1996 to 2008...
That's the equivalent of losing 36,000 doctors in a decade, according to the researchers.
"Something has been discouraging physicians from working the long hours they used to work," he said.
Payment issues may have played more of a role. The overall decrease in hours coincided with a 25 percent decline in pay for doctors' services, adjusted for inflation. And when the researchers looked closely at U.S. cities with the lowest and highest doctor fees, they found doctors working shorter hours in the low-fee cities and longer hours in the high-fee cities.
On top of that, fewer medical students are choosing primary care and more are pursuing higher paying specialties. ...overall work hours for primary care physicians and medical specialists declining, but hours worked by surgeons remaining stable...
Primary care doctors handle 2,300 patients on average, far too many for them to be able to realistically follow guidelines for managing their patients' chronic illnesses, let alone their acute care needs,...
"It's just too many patients to take care of," Bodenheimer said. "And you don't make that much money for each visit. It's really exhausting. It's extremely hard work"
garage mahal said...
Sunlight has a great stream live. It shows industry donors next to the person speaking.
Interesting. Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-MD) received more $ from Health Professionals than Sen. Tom Coburn, M.D. (R-OK) did.
If we could get government spending out of healthcare altogether, the costs would come down. And then even the poor could afford care or insurance.
Dems lose every debate where they allow Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi to speak.
If I had been the Republicans, I would have sent just 2-3 people like Rep. Paul Ryan and a doctor or two. It would have given the appearance of David vs. Goliath and the American people love an underdog.
At this point in Mr Obama's presidency does anyone (1) believe him; or (2) give a damn
He is a serial liar--at least Tiger Woods got laid.
Well Roger you are getting screwed.
@fls: "every other industrialized country controls health care costs"
Bullshit.
Prove it.
All products and services are rationed. If not by price, it will be rationed by some other mechanism.
So tell me why rationing by politics is superior to rationing by price.
President Barack Obama (D-IL) Donors:
University of California $1598395
Goldman Sachs $1058595
Harvard University $892397 0
Microsoft Corp $837117
Google Inc $809436
JPMorgan Chase & Co $747732
Citigroup Inc $723840 $721840
Sidley Austin LLP $618598
University of Chicago $616115
Coburn fires back! Fraud and waste in the gov system DOES cause rising costs in the private sector. I'm not sure Obama even hears him.
Republicans spent weeks attacking the provision in the bill that, you guessed it, went after the waste, fraud, and abuse in Medicare! Not to mention Medicare is 25% cheaper at covering people than private insurance.
Prairie - ouch. You are killing me with that truth. Don't let anyone else know. Ouch Ouch Ouch. Gov't involvement causes prices to rise? Who knew?
Former
Obama might as well have gone for single-payer
This, of course, is his end game, and we all know it. Part of me wishes he had just proposed it, so we could have a real debate on it. Well, that probably wouldn't have happened anyway. Worse yet, my side (the liberty side) would probably have lost. See above. People want things that (they perceive) are free.
I found the amount of fraud for medicare/medicaid in New york alone that Coburn quoted to be shocking.
Well here is a quote from a New York Times article in 2005 the amount has most likely only gone up-
New York Medicaid Fraud May Reach Into Billions
By CLIFFORD J. LEVY and MICHAEL LUO
Published: July 18, 2005
It was created 40 years ago to provide health care for the poorest New Yorkers, offering a lifeline to those who could not afford to have a baby or a heart attack. But in the decades since, New York State's Medicaid program has also become a $44.5 billion target for the unscrupulous and the opportunistic.
Link
Lem-
Harry Reid said something to the effect about Coburn-
" I don't know much about [blank] but I do know a filibuster when I see one."
Yes, I'm sick of it. Even if I liked Obama, I would be sick of it. I watched about 20 seconds of Harry "Vote for Me or the Wife Gets It" Reid's treacly human interest story and was so repulsed I turned it off.
I think O and the Dems have unwittingly delivered the coup de grace for their approval ratings--shut up and get some work done! Or play some hoops! Just get out of my face!
"Not to mention Medicare is 25% cheaper at covering people than private insurance."
If they can find someone to see them, sure.
Medicare doctors waning in rural Arizona
"Seniors in rural Arizona towns and cities with a graying population, such as Yavapai County's Prescott and Prescott Valley, are facing what health officials acknowledge is a troubling trend: doctors who refuse to see new Medicare patients.
White is among the many seniors who have struggled to find a local physician and have turned to hospital emergency rooms, clinics or lengthy car trips to Phoenix for health care. Medicare, some doctors say, pays too little, and the red tape is too much.
Nearly a third of Medicare recipients looking for a new primary-care physician had some trouble securing a regular doctor, according to a June 2008 report by the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission, an independent committee that advises Congress."
Well you know, we can always count on the government to fight fraud and waste.
ugh.
Sen Max Baucus (D-MT)
We are not that far apart.
I rather have a filibuster talking than somebody out of touch.
Dave Camp says, quoting something he heard from his constituents: "Maybe if you're interested in cutting costs you shouldn't be spending a trillion dollars..."
Meade-
Oh ya I love how Goldman Sachs is Obama's second biggest donor, Geitner hired from Goldman Sachs his first aide at Treasury was from Goldman Sachs, when he was at the Fed they let the AIG get their deal and then they let Bear Sterns go under.
All good deals for Goldman Sachs but it's-
Republicans that are the friends of those fat cats on Wall Street!
garage mahal said...
"Not to mention Medicare is 25% cheaper at covering people than private insurance"
It's going to be 100% cheaper when doctors refuse to see Medicare patients.
What about all the fat people riding their free scooters all around walmart? Who will pay for that desperate need? Do we need a Park It Panel in addition to a Death Panel?
This is the stupidest Kabuki theater ever-
Obama:I don't mean to interupt ,but-
[then he does it twice...]
New York State's Medicaid program has also become a $44.5 billion target for the unscrupulous and the opportunistic.
Yes, unscrupulous and opportunistic health care providers fighting regulation.
The lax regulation of the program did not come about by chance. Doctors, hospitals, health care unions and drug companies have long resisted attempts to increase the policing of Medicaid. The pharmaceutical industry, which has spent millions of dollars annually on political contributions and lobbying in Albany, has defeated several attempts to limit the drugs covered by Medicaid; other states have saved hundreds of millions of dollars annually with such restrictions.
Not to mention Medicare is 25% cheaper at covering people than private insurance.
You are aware, garage, that the 'cheapness' isn't due to any kind of efficiency but rather because Medicare reimburses at a lower rate than private insurance.
And as Pogo points out, fewer physicians are accepting Medicare patients. That is a significant point that you might wish to consider. Why? Allow me to elaborate. The first wave of the Boomer generation is going to be hitting the Medicare rolls very soon with more joining them in the coming decades. That is a lot of people. Lots and lots of people.
So tell me garage, using that font of wisdom that you liberals think only God gave you, what does that say when more and more of the medical community says, yeah, nice sized clientele but you know what, we don't want em. Thanks anyway.
Ponder that one for a few and get back to me.
Democrats: "We are going to cut costs by spending trillions of dollars".
...for the children....
fls I'm interested in hearing how the countries you named are controlling costs. Can you go back to that?
What about all the fat people riding their free scooters all around walmart?
Stop spending tax money on producing corn syrup. Subsidize vegetable production, instead.
I can buy chicken -- fed mostly on corn -- for 79 cents a pound, while broccoli and squash are 99 cents a pound.
fls-
Ya that was five years ago.
Did you miss Coburn's point?
His comparison?
Faud is rampant in public plans but does not happen by near the amount in private plans.
I can't remember the exact amounts but I think the ratio was 15 to 1.
Why is that?
What would chicken cost if you fed it mostly broccoli and squash at 99 cents a pound?
What Ann said (Most normal people, I think, are sick of hearing politicians talking about health care.) is why what tg said (We cannot let down and relax because there is still a deadly enemy with his loyal News Media screen and he still has real bombs and a chance to get through the defenses this time. We need to vote the under cover Communist out of our White House) is still important.
Keeping an eye on this thing one way or another - watching the whole thing or doing it ScottM's way (highlight reel) - is still necessary.
MadisonMan said...
I wonder why it's even being televised. To prove it happened? Like this is supposed to make us thing they are doing something?
Barry will tell you it's transparency, but the idiots in the West Wing still think people hang on his every word.
Lem said...
Has this happened b4 where a president's agenda had been rejected in the polls and failed to pass the senate and they have just unrelated and keep it alive?
This is unpresedented
And we should be unPresidented (is there a way to recall POTUS?).
master cylinder said...
wow, what an interesting read:
Q: haters do you still hate?
A: why yes!
The real difference between the Demos and Repos. If Demos dissent, it's the highest form of patriotism. If the Repos do it, it's hate.
What about all the fat people riding their free scooters all around walmart?
Actually that is a very good point regarding what we spend our health care dollars on. I don't suppose it irks folks when they see someone whose a biscuit short of half a ton riding around on their Medicare paid for scooter from the Scooter Store. You know, that company that says you won't have to pay a dime for it because...wait for it...MEDICARE WILL!
FLS, take note, one reason Europe can control health care costs to a large extent is there aren't many 300lb Euros tooling around on scooters. Consdider we are the leaders in Type II diabetes, which is by and large attributable to piss poor eating habits and you can see just one of our problems as a society.
"what does that say when more and more of the medical community says, yeah, nice sized clientele but you know what, we don't want em. Thanks anyway."
The government makes a law that says that doctors have to accept medicare patients.
My wife's company provides supplies to medicare patients. Medicare lowered their reimbursement rates on supplies but required that her company continue to supply existing patients. That's how I remember her explaining it to me. I'll ask her again today.
Hoosier Daddy has a good point-
Why is almost every government program about to go bust?
Medicaid
Medicare
Social Security
VA
Military Health care.
Military health care keeps getting eroded because it supposedly keeps get past costs and part of their answer has been to farm it out to the private sector.
TriCare.
I'm interested in hearing how the countries you named are controlling costs
Health care cost control
O wants to focus on a "philosophical debate." He wants to do that without responding to Paul Ryan's excellent summation of good sense suggestions. He interrupted Ryan to blather on about a story about fixing his car.
Looks like the plan is to pretend to find areas of agreement but always with the understanding that O's bill is the one to pass.
He says it isn't that the government wants to take over healthcare; they just want to control it.
"Not to mention Medicare is 25% cheaper at covering people than private insurance."
As other's have said, it is not cheaper. The government inists on reimburse at below costs. And where do the providers make up the difference? By shifting costs to the private plans. This is bad, but at least it's a safety valve. Once ObamaCare is fully implemented, that safety valve is gone.
Military health care gets eroded by this bill for some reason and the only person that seemed to notice it in the bill was-
Scott Brown.
He made a point of it in his election debate.
(The Really Handsome One)
1. Medicare is cheaper because it only pays about 90% of the cost a private insurer would. Meaning that either the Dr loses money OR the private insurers are billed MORE, in order to keep the Dr.'s income steady. Medicarre works because of the private system.
2. Medicare is riddled with fraud.
3. For all that Medicare denies coverage MORE than private insurers.
Since we're doing Medicare factoids....Medicare is NOT cheaper than private insurance, it feeds off of it...without it, it wouldn't BE cheaper.
WV: falki...Balki's little brother I guess.
I can buy chicken -- fed mostly on corn -- for 79 cents a pound, while broccoli and squash are 99 cents a pound.
No one ever got elected by promising squash and broccoli in every pot.
Consdider we are the leaders in Type II diabetes, which is by and large attributable to piss poor eating habits
Americans sit on their asses too much. Europeans walk a lot more because gas is $6 a gallon.
Not to mention Medicare is 25% cheaper at covering people than private insurance.
I have a client who is a cardiac care physician. He tells me he'll be in his office and get a call from the hospital. If it's a Medicare patient, he knows that the minute he says yes and leaves his office to go to the hospital he has started to lose money. The Medicare reimbursement schedule will not cover his overhead (forget profit) for most services.
Medicare (and other gov't programs) have long gotten away with paying less because the private sector makes up the difference, ie. subsidizes it.
This is the socialism problem. At some point you run out of other peoples' money to spend.
We're almost there now.
Unless, we're already there.
fls:
http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/
I thought this was a conversation.
I also thought you were a mature adult.
I didn't realize you were 12. How did you get into law school so young? Amazing!
What would chicken cost if you fed it mostly broccoli and squash at 99 cents a pound?
I dunno but it seems like the by- product would be - more democrats.
Is algore in NYC?
It's snowing like crazy here.
"Medicare (and other gov't programs) have long gotten away with paying less because the private sector makes up the difference, ie. subsidizes it."
I think that's a really good point. My wife's company borrowed 300 million to subsidize medicare.
No wonder it costs less.
Obama's talking about the appeal of catastrophic insurance for young people!!!
Obama just said cat coverage is "not real insurance". {sigh}
Wow Obama sounds soooo brilliant right now!
Slowly very slowly he tells America-
An apple is a different thing from an orange.....
Military health care gets eroded by this bill for some reason and the only person that seemed to notice it in the bill was-
Scott Brown.
He made a point of it in his election debate.
I heard a recent news story about an operation at a Military Hospital: The docs left a metal medical instrument inside the patient. It wasn't small, and now the lodged-inside-his-chest-cavity instrument is too dangerous to remove.
Government health care at work! Our armed forces deserve the best medical care, and the democrats are clueless, almost derelict in their duty to support them.
well - they do give it lip service.
Michelle Malkin tweeted, "Sen. McConnell notes: Dems=52 minutes. GOP=24 minutes."
" This isn't a summit — it's a lecture."
ARRRR!!!!!!!
Hoosier Daddy, if you are going to support cat care, you have to give dog care too. After all, most cat people are democrats. Fair is fair.
(sarc off)
FLS wrote: Yes, unscrupulous and opportunistic health care providers fighting regulation....
Ah, welcome to the world of regulatory capture. I'm always bemused by the liberals that argue in favor of more government power by complaining about industries that manipulate government power in their favor.
The problem isn't the abuse. The problem is the power made available for abuse.
Americans sit on their asses too much.
I don't disagree.
Europeans walk a lot more because gas is $6 a gallon.
Yes and your average European country is about the size of Indiana or Illinois.
Obama just said cat coverage is "not real insurance". {sigh}
Well thank you Mr. President for proving my point that our health care crisis is part and parcel because of idiots like you.
It really is odd in Europe that you can drive across most countries in a handful of hours.
If you can afford the $100.00 to fill up the tank.
Damn near had a heart attack when I filled er up in France.
My office is an OBAMA-FREE zone.
He actually compared cat coverage to "house insurance", saying "that's not health insurance".
That 5 minutes pretty much summed up the hoplessness of our situation.
April Anne-
You can hear Scott Brown talk about the Veteran and TriCare cuts at right before the 1:10 minute mark in this video right after he gives Gergen a civic lesson about the Senate seat belonging to the people.
YouTube
This is the socialism problem. At some point you run out of other peoples' money to spend.
We're almost there now.
Well if you want a textbook example, look at Greece right now.
I fell off my chair laughing at one article quoting a 31 year old engineer saying their problems is because of capitalism. Really? A country slipping into default largely on the 52.8% of government spending to GDP is because of capitalism???
Where does one even begin?
fls chickens out of providing any proof for his assertion that "every other industrialized country controls health care costs".
Why? Because he is full of shit!
"Health spending in France, while lower than the U.S., is among the highest in the world, whatever the indicator, despite decades of mandatory, subsidized health insurance. After 1988, the public health care system has regularly been in the red, with deficits numbered in the billions of euros. The forecast deficit for 2009 alone: 9.4 billion euros (over US$13 billion).
A growing share of Canadian provincial budgets is also swallowed by the health care system, going in 20 years (1983-2003) from 32% to 41% and on the way to 50% in a few short years. As a portion of GDP, and adjusting for population age, Canadian health care spending even ranked ahead of France’s in 2005."
Damn near had a heart attack when I filled er up in France.
Well the good news would be you were in the nation with the best health care in the world.
OMG. I've never spent so much time listening to Obama. WHY oh WHY was he touted as such a good speaker?
He scolded Kyl for asking whether government or the individual would know better what they want to buy.
Keep talking Mr. President...just keep on talking.
Critical condition:
Senator Kyl has been the best on the substance today, he gave the lie to President Obama's point about the Senate bill lowering premiums in the individual market (because premiums will only be lowered for the end-user; costs will increase because of new regulations and because they are hidden behind government subsidies).
Kyl also hit on the point that the massive cost of the bill will end up hurting some of the people it is meant to help, e.g., raising the bar for tax-deductible catastrophic health-care costs would impact middle-aged, middle-class Americans most.
Kyl then fired back effectively at the suggestion by Obama that people can keep their existing plans under the new regulations.
In general, Republicans have been better on substance so far; most Democrat "substance," President Obama excluded, is anecdotal — takes the form of "let me tell you about guy X."
"Health-care costs in Germany are exploding, with estimates reckoning that it will consume 30 percent of GDP by 2020 if left unreformed.
In Germany, successive governments have been forced to charge citizens for over-the-counter drugs and increase co-payments on physician visits and prescription drugs. Anecdotally, waiting lists for certain kinds of treatment are on the rise, and the use of technology such as MRI and CT scanners lags considerably behind the U.S."
Rush is pleased with how Republicans are handling the Summit.
MSM talking point #1
Sarah Palin..
Beat all you smarty pants ;)
Madawasken - thanks. Scott Brown handled that loaded Gergen question masterfully.
& - Cuts in Military Care are unacceptable.
Thanks for the laugh Hoos, that was good.
I don't know, when the President tells us that the thing that really is insurance, isn't "real" insurance....
Um, I gotta go eat lunch now.
AprilAnne-
No problem.
Wow McCain is talking about special deals for Florida, Hawaii, Connecticut, Vermont, Massachusetts, Michigan-a $100 million for a hospital in Connecticut-that I never heard about.
Reminding America about the $80 billion deal for Pharma.
I'm watching on the CATO live blog.
I'm liking Ca Rep George Miller(D). Is he for real about Acne being a pre-existing condition? Shouldn't we better define what the insurance companies can call a pre-existing condition? I understand the reason a heart patient doesn't make business sense to cover, but acne?
I'm insulted by Obama's "We're not campaigning now" response to McCain.
I'm having trouble staying awake. What is supposed to happen because of this?
I'm so tired of this. When oh when will the Democrats declare victory and go home? Talk about a filibuster. I'll even promise not to gloat.
I also thought you were a mature adult.
I cannot point to a single comprehensive, succinct, and clear study of health care cost control techniques use in the other industrialized countries. You have access to the same resources that I do.
Democrats are secretly planning a reconciliation black-op.
Oooh McCain must have hit a nerve-
Obama: Look,let me just make this point, John because we're not campaigning anymore-the election is over.
Nasty! Can you say-
Projection!
FLS, you're the one who made the point, now you admit that you can't support it, but we're supposed to believe you anyway? If you're going to assert something, you have to show the basis (that was pretty big at my law school; maybe yours was different?)
Regardless, if you're going to put something nasty, at least give us a NSFW- that didn't pass my workplace's filters, and that stuff is logged and monitored here. Don't be a jerk.
- Lyssa
Someone asked why Social Security is going broke. The answer is because it can! The taxpayers will make up the shortfall.
When Joe Biden joined the Senate in 1973, the max FICA tax was $1,048. When Joe Biden left the Senate 36 years later, the max FICA tax was $13,243.
That is an increase of 1200%. Let's assume the average was half of that or 600%.
Only the govt could increase a program's revenue by 600% [six times] in just 36 years and still be losing money!!
Obama was/is "too clever by half." He let his overweening confidence and ego get the better of him. He and his side are looking bad,bad,bad. They are not answering substantive points raised by the Elephants, while trotting out the same old tired (and blatantly false) talking points.
Cheeseburger, Cheeseburger, Cheeseburger!
This coming from a guy that's been in the most protracted "campaign mode" in history. [well maybe Napoleon he liked to "campaign" a lot too.]
Original Mike, don't you think that the fact that we buy insurance for our pets, that we will spend several thousand dollars to treat our dogs for a cancer the vet says will come back even so shows how skewed our health care expectations are?
"I cannot point to a single comprehensive, succinct, and clear study"
Which means you were blowing smoke.
But it's simple:
There is rationing by price, or there is non-price rationing (queues, reduced quality, reduced time with doctors, age limits, non-covered services, non-covered medications). The latter is always politically determined.
Why is that method superior or more fair, fls?
your average European country is about the size of Indiana or Illinois.
I'm leading a European life in America, because I can easily walk to three grocery stores, three coffee houses, a bakery, the post office, the library, my bank, and a Target. Also an Indian restaurant, two Chinese restaurants, two Mexican restaurants, and a Chipotle. And a McDonald's.
The big Liquormart closed and became a craft store, but the furniture store closed and became Liquorama.
The Soviets could always afford vodka, so at least we''l have that.
Republicans looked like they were ready.
Obama says..Lets just be clear.. Healthcare is just complicated.. waste fraud and abuse prevention would just generate a lot of pages.
This was not a good idea for the Boy President. He is an INCOMPETENT speaker.
I am thinking that a law professor who ran a class like this would have her students simply stand up and walk out after about 5-6 minutes.
Oh my gosh. Biden is speaking. Whoever is doing it, stop pulling Chatty Cathy's string!
"Yes, Mr President, but we just can't afford this." Eric Cantor (R-Va)
Obama doesn't handle critique well at all.
It's his way or the highway. Total Chicago politics on display.
What would a debate between Ann and Barack look like?
Might be nasty. Bloody even.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Geez. He's running a symposium, and he's NOT LISTENING.
Why the charade? He's not going to learn anything; he's just there to TELL US WHAT WE MUST DO.
Wow can't believe Obama said that to McCain. They better take a break before Obama loses it on camera.
Obama is just not used to not getting his way when he is just "having a conversation".
My guaranty.
When you see the reports on this in the MSM, it will not resemble the actual event.
It's all about the post-summit spin and talking points, which were written long before today.
Any question/comment directed at ObamaCare is deemed a "talking point."
I sense the Professor is getting ANGRY!
Critical Condition:
"After Sen. John McCain (R., Ariz.) focused on issues in his wheelhouse — the dearth of transparency and wealth of special deals in Obamacare — and chastised Obama for failing to live up to his campaign promises to change the way Washington works and conduct health-care negotiations in front of C-SPAN cameras, the president got testy.
"We're not campaigning any more, John. The election is over," he said.
To which McCain responded, "I'm reminded of that every day."
bam.
If a majority of people- the citzens they are supposed to represent- are against this, for whatever reason, why is the President pushing it? Why are the Democratic legislators, who are supposed to represent "the people" pushing this.
Exactly who do these people represent? It sure is not us.
Here is more background on what is going down with Obama and Wall Street and his Secretary of the Treasury-Geithner.
Secret AIG Document Shows Goldman Sachs Minted Most Toxic CDOs
By Richard Teitelbaum
Feb. 23 (Bloomberg) -- When a congressional panel convened a hearing on the government rescue of American International Group Inc. in January, the public scolding of Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner got the most attention.
Lawmakers said the former head of the New York Federal Reserve Bank had presided over a backdoor bailout of Wall Street firms and a coverup. Geithner countered that he had acted properly to avert the collapse of the financial system.
A potentially more important development slipped by with less notice, Bloomberg Markets reports in its April issue. Representative Darrell Issa, the ranking Republican on the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, placed into the hearing record a five-page document itemizing the mortgage securities on which banks such as Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Societe Generale SA had bought $62.1 billion in credit-default swaps from AIG.
These were the deals that pushed the insurer to the brink of insolvency -- and were eventually paid in full at taxpayer expense. The New York Fed, which secretly engineered the bailout, prevented the full publication of the document for more than a year, even when AIG wanted it released.
That lack of disclosure shows how the government has obstructed a proper accounting of what went wrong in the financial crisis, author and former investment banker William Cohan says. “This secrecy is one more example of how the whole bailout has been done in such a slithering manner,” says Cohan, who wrote “House of Cards” (Doubleday, 2009), about the unraveling of Bear Stearns Cos. “There’s been no accountability.”
Feb.23 Bloomberg
Goldman Sachs-Obama's second highest donor.
And who did Geithner hire as the Treasury's chief of staff-the lobbyist for Goldman Sachs.
But ya-those Wall Street "fat cats"-they're represented by Republicans.
http://www.who.int/health_financing/documents/dp_e_02_2-cost_containment.pdf
The most effective means of cost containment are capitation (doctor gets paid according to number of patients, not fee for service nor salary), firm annual budgets for hospitals, and reference pricing for drugs -- if drug prescribed costs more than "reference" drug, patient pays difference.
If a majority of people- the citzens they are supposed to represent- are against this, for whatever reason, why is the President pushing it?
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you might find
You get what you need
Well guys-be fair!
Obama had to interupt he rarely gets to make his point to the American public.
I mean it's been a whole twelve hours since he's had the air waves to himself, and damn he's got the Olympics to compete with lately.
All that patriotism it's enough to make Liberals SICK!
They're going to need YOU to pay for their health care.
I'm leading a European life in America, because I can easily walk to three grocery stores, three coffee houses, a bakery, the post office, the library, my bank, and a Target. Also an Indian restaurant, two Chinese restaurants, two Mexican restaurants, and a Chipotle. And a McDonald's.
That's fantastic!
Actually, FLS, the most effective method of cost containment is to get the government out of the business of health care.
But ya-those Wall Street "fat cats"-they're represented by Republicans.
Republicans like John McCain?
From opensecrets.org :
Top 5 Contributors, 2003-2008, Campaign CmteContributor Total Indivs PACs
Merrill Lynch $381,995 $381,995 $0
Citigroup Inc $331,051 $326,051 $5,000
Morgan Stanley $274,452 $269,452 $5,000
Goldman Sachs $259,345 $254,345 $5,000
JPMorgan Chase & Co $240,357 $230,357 $10,000
Why do investment banks contribute the most to Presidential candidates? As Willie Sutton informed us, "that's where all the money is."
I'm leading a European life in America, because I can easily walk to three grocery stores, three coffee houses, a bakery, the post office, the library, my bank, and a Target. Also an Indian restaurant, two Chinese restaurants, two Mexican restaurants, and a Chipotle. And a McDonald's.
No Irish Pub?
FAIL.
"I mean it's been a whole twelve hours since he's had the air waves to himself, and damn he's got the Olympics to compete with lately."
There's been an Obama commercial (Feed America or some such) running nearly nonstop on the NBC cable channels during Olympic coverage. I'm sick of hearing about Elkhart, IN.
Can we have a vote soon on STFU POTUS? I think it'd be a landslide.
Peter V Bella says:
"If a majority of people- the citzens they are supposed to represent- are against this, for whatever reason, why is the President pushing it? Why are the Democratic legislators, who are supposed to represent "the people" pushing this."
There's a giant pink donkey in the room, and the dems refuse to see it. A strong majority of Americans DO NOT WANT THIS.
the most effective method of cost containment is to get the government out of the business of health care.
Nuh-unh. We run a third higher than every other country:
http://www.cms.hhs.gov/HealthCareFinancingReview/Downloads/03fallpg1.pdf
Check out Table I and Figure 1.
McCain isn't the one railing against -"those fat cats on Wall Street".
He isn't the one that hired Geithner who was head of the damn New York Fed when all that went down.
And he isn't the one claiming that Democrats are owned by Wall Street.
It's the hypocrisy, FLS.
I wasn't going to watch because I have to work for a living, but our company cafeteria has three screens all tuned to CNN.
Talk about a guy who thinks he's the bright young professor lecturing to a class of dimwits! At one point he was actually wagging a pencil at the Republicans.
Then Rep. Cantor more or less called bullsh*t on him, and it seemed to me that there was a momentary look of surprise on Obama's face. Whether it was surprise that a person with a Jewish name was on the Republican side of the room, or surprise that anyone dared to call him on something, I don't know. Perhaps it was all in my imagination.
One trillion dollars to see to it that the illegal immigrants who mow the lawns and do maid service for the country club Republicans and the limousine liberals like fls and garage mahal? Can't we save money just by buying all the limousine liberals and country club Republicans all riding mowers and vacuum cleaners?
Missed this comment from Obama at the Summit-
I Don't Count My Time Because I'm the President
[Link takes you to video at Real Clear Politics.]
fls:
Pogo -- every other industrialized country controls health care costs.
Stop telling us they do, and tell us HOW.
FLS - tell me how we have a free market in health care. Prove it.
Did Eric Cantor bitch slap Obama? Was it a strong pimp hand?
I cannot point to a single comprehensive, succinct, and clear study of health care cost control techniques use in the other industrialized countries.
Then maybe you shouldn't make the claim and then expect your debating opponent to prove you right regardless of his/her access to reference material.
@fls:the most effective method of cost containment is to get the government out of the business of health care.
Nuh-unh. We run a third higher than every other country:
Except for the fact that in America the government is IN THE BUSINESS OF HEALTHCARE, this might have been a good point.
I can't tell when you are pretending to be dumb, or are really being dumb.
I mean, when you said vote fraud can't happen because everyone knows who lives in the precinct, that was pretty dumb, but this almost tops it.
for fls & garage, the American governments's heavy involvement in health care is a wonderful feature, not a bug. In their minds, need to expand it from 25% to 100%.
FLS - so basically what you're saying is the American people need to have HCR shoved down their throats?
fls do you know what proportion of those expenditures is government and what is private?
I will try to look it up on my side. It would be interesting to see a breakdown.
Also interesting would be to know the demographics of the highest cost countries.
A history of free medical care is the context of this debate. The Cities and states budgeted for indigent patients basic emergency services and a free hospital until WW ll when drafted doctors and a war effort to provide the troops good care for free to get them back to their jobs. Now we cannot deny our ability too do that as long as doctors are drafted and the hospitals provided are not the latest miracles of electromagnetic imaging and open heart surgeries for the elderly that did not exist 20 years ago. The government is not ready to get out of this role yet...they just want to use it for a jobs program for voters and sharply curtail spending on the old folks. So what is the answer. It is not socialism that screws up everything it touches. But the poor you will always have with you and you can do them good anytime you want to.
Nuh-unh. We run a third higher than every other country:
Check out Table I and Figure 1.
Couldn't help but notice the time period showin is 1970-2001.
Wonder if anything has changed in the last 9 years?
"Not to mention Medicare is 25% cheaper at covering people than private insurance."
It's cheaper the way HMOs were cheaper: they skimp on care. A hospital admin I know said they hated taking a certain HMO's heart patients in the ER because they had all been "maintained" on meds when they really needed surgery about 5 years prior. Lots of them died on the table.
How do you think Obamacare is going to treat older patients?
The Obama administration is beginning to look like a psycho girlfriend. She was all new and different and shiny at first. But then things started to go wrong.
Now, despite the fact that the American people have made it clear they don't want to have anything approaching Obama's health care plan, he just keeps calling and calling.
I'd say we're well into the creepy phase now.
Seven:
But thankfully they are not ideologues.
wv = phitti = rapper $0.50 cents
"The most effective means of cost containment are capitation, firm annual budgets for hospitals, and reference pricing for drug"
In short, price controls.
All that does is ration spending by political means, which works, that is total spending can be capped.
But that is merely rationing by political means.
How is political rationing superior to price rationing, exactly?
Also interesting would be to know the demographics of the highest cost countries.
I'll wager you they don't have 10-15 million illegals using their health care.
I'm not sure if anyone noticed though, but the two nations most often compared to us as superior health care, Germany and France, aren't all that far behind us in terms of expenditures to GDP; 10.7 and 9.5 respectively. Yes its lower but taking into account population, demographic and yes again, a substantial illegal population (the size of the Netherlands), I'm not so sure we're looking at an apples to apples comparison.
If the Republicans had balls, they would tell Obama and the Dems tey would repeal this bill if they gain the majority. It will be their first order of business. Then they will pass their own bill.
His Story can be erased.
Not that anybody should make it a drinking game.
At least not at this time of day. They really should have this sort of thing in the evening or at night for just that reason.
How is political rationing superior to price rationing, exactly?
It's so much more fair if nobody can have nice stuff and everybody gets crappy stuff. Don't you remember how happy East Germans were?
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