I'm pretty bored by the prospect of another speech, but I did set the DVR to record. I guess it's on now, right? Okay. I'll check it out. Meanwhile, please blab in the comments to make up for my dullness, if you've got any energy around this.
ADDED: But you know, it's the season premiere of "America's Next Top Model." What was Obama thinking?! With all the networks showing Prez O, how many people are flocking to the feet of the great Tyra Banks?
AND: Blah! O's speech. It looks like a State of the Union Address. That seems so wrong. The whole first 15 minutes — the length of a speech to schoolkids — are consumed with various political entities filing in, congressional pageantry, and adulation of the executive.
AND: "Oh! They're wasting time standing up. What bullshit." I'm irritated as hell by the standing ovations. I can't believe anyone is watching.
९ सप्टेंबर, २००९
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214 पैकी 1 – 200 नवीन› नवीनतम»Oh, man, I was hopin' you were live bloggin' - I can't stand to watch it, can't stand the sound and cadence of his voice, much less all the lies and spin...
Do I need to drink some kool-aid?
We will completely upset the entire basis of 1/6th of the economy, mandate unlimited coverage, AND reduce costs.
What's not to like?
An observation:
A president's ability to speak well is inversely proportional to his propensity to take action.
George Bush. Barack Obama. Yes?
Word Verification: coased: v., to have one's transactions costs lowered. All those Obama voters have been coased; they'll know to vote differently next time.
BHOring.
Will anyone?
Haven't we had enough of this guy?
Is this the plan? To talk at us so much we just yell, "OK, whatever you want, Barack! Just shut up already!"
wv: cogyria
A mythical world of logical, rational thinking.
(the other kev)
This is fascinating. I wasn't alive for the Hindenburg, but I suspect the sense of unfolding disaster was eerily like this.
Obama, once again, stays away from the substance of the legislation in favor of:
-- anecdotes about health insurance horrors
-- distortions about the relative quality of US care
-- mischaracterizing the views of his opponents
-- derogating anyone who disagrees with his ideas as, at best, "bickering" and at worst, "obstruction." No one could possibly disagree on the merits. It's bad faith, period.
-- continues to use the Clintonesque "nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have."
-- Describes the plan completely in terms of assertions of its benefits, leaving out all the trade-offs.
-- Makes it seem as if the future of insurance will give people the same choices members of Congress have.
-- Claims he's embracing John McCain's idea.
-- Tries to honeycoat the fines against anyone who won't buy health care insurance for themselves or their employees.
"You will be required to pay my government for the privilege of living in this society, and YOU WILL LIKE IT."
He won't say "death panels."
I think his worst move here -- doing it just now -- that every criticism of the plan is "cynical and irresponsible." That's easy to do when you restate the criticisms to make them sound ridiculous.
He's 10 minutes late. That's very annoying. He says he brought us back from the brink of disaster. That's also annoying. I can't stand to listen to the megalmaniac anymore- he's too annoying.
Oooh! No help for illegal aliens! That didn't go over very well.
Where is tort reform, baby?
I predict a small bump in the polls for his plan. But I don't think he can sustain it.
Massive booing by Democrats when Obama claims health reform will not cover illegal aliens.
He just called the death panel guys: liars
just put the public option back on the table after hidin it in the beginning
So businesses aren't bad for going for profits - but he maligns them anyway? How does his mind work?
Holding accountable by nationalizing the industry.
Yeah, Chavez.
Obama must REQUIRE that Congress join this plan before it should be enacted.
If it's not good enough for Congress, why should I think it's good enough for my family?
oh, now the insurance companies are the bad guys. they were the good guys just a few moments ago.
Oh. the public option will be like the post office.
Yeah for those poor people!
Oh good grief - like public colleges run -- he is NOT using good analogies
He should have skipped the myths and admitted up front that Americans had some completely valid concerns, that he appreciated very well. That's really all I wanted from this speech, and at 8:40 it hasn't happened. That, and a clear idea of what his bottom line is - a few basic concepts. He doesn't seem able to do that. It's so frustrating. I'm an uninsured artist, and would love to see reform that didn't put a bandaid on a broken leg. But I haven't seen it.
address your legitimate concerns. but if we don't like them - pfft!
Yeah, suddenly The Messiah is all about "the market" being allowed to run.
Florida said...
Massive booing by Democrats when Obama claims health reform will not cover illegal aliens.
I thought those boo's were GOP, knowing that his statement about no care for illegals was bopogus because the Dems had voted down any enforcement mechanism to keep ilegals out.
Profit is overhead to Obama.
I'd recommend Mike Munger's podcast on middlemen but he's too stupid to understand it.
link.
No Tort reform
No interstate insurance
not a lot applause for spending cuts.
Ooh! blame Bush!
Sarah Palin to BHO - "One last thing: after President Obama's speech tonight, listen for which pundits use the words "false", "scary", and "risky" in describing the proposals I put forward. That's how you'll be able to tell who the White House counted as "allies" worthy of receiving its talking points. "
She's right.
Not going to increase the deficit? Sure. He's already increased it beyond all levels imagineable. Why will he stop now?
Well, he's blaming Bush again and again.
Nice to know Johnny One Note can't change.
Great live blogging from Cato here:
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/09/08/cato-health-care-experts-live-blogging-obamas-address/
I am listening to the Pogues in an attempt to drown out the sound of his voice coming from the living room where my spouse is watching. Can't stand the sound of that man's voice. (O's, not my spouse.) And I don't believe anything he says anyway, so why listen?
....dressed to the nines, no doubt.
EVERYBODY: Synchronize your watches
At 9:09 pm sharp, we shall simultaneously, all together, engage in a Universal Act
Why doesn't a Republican stand up and shout "STOP LYING!"
To hell with decorum when dealing with tyrants.
Lots of applause for tort reform - will he back it?
Enter, stage left: Tort Reform.
I can't believe anyone is watching.
Perhaps they want to hear Obama's plan? Not Pelosi's or John Dingell, Sr.'s from 1943.
900 billion over 10 years...ok.
This is absurd.
Man! that is sly - he won't make Congress have to handle tort reform, and he can then claim that it fails.
And he's going to raise taxes! Yippie!
Perhaps they want to hear Obama's plan?
If so, they were disappointed. He didn't offer one.
Lou Dobbs was funny tonight.
CNN's Ed Henry reported Obama would finally be talking about health care tonight and Dobbs exclaimed "Finally?? - Obama's been talking nonstop for two months".
900 billion is just money. It's not even a trillion dollars.
OMG - Ted Kennedy gets brought in, a man who did *not* get government health care restrictions.
MaryJo Kopechne was not available for comment.
Here comes the Ted Kennedy homage...his death bed wish...moral issue time...
God help us.
reducing the growth by 1/10 of 1%, will be trillions in savings.
another unproveable Jobs grown or saved claim
calling out opponents.
note he didn't promise tort reform in the bill. he promised demonstrations by HHS in select states of select ideas. since that doesn' change underlying Federal or State tort law, what impact?
GOOD GRIEF - self reliance + 1 Trillion dollars IS NOT SELF RELIANCE
Teddy's dying wish was to write O's speech?
If Obama's plan isn't good enough to force Congressmen to enroll in it, why should I take the risk of putting my kids in it?
This "finger pointing" at Chuck Grassley and John McCain isn't going to go over well from a Senate back-bencher.
BTW I almost never watch political speeches cause I can't take the lies and pomp and circumstance.
But Althouse, I am glad you said it first. What a bunch of BS with the address to Congress and them up and down and clapping on cue.
who better to talk about misspent money than Obama. He won't increase the deficit with health care....nah, he only increased by 3 trillion...but won't do it with health care. Right.
It may have already been said, but please! Do we still have to trash a previous administration to prop up the current administration?
And here's the "let's do it for Teddy" spiel.
"Mr. President-if you can find $600 billion worth of waste in existing gov't programs, why do you want to create another?"
From the Cato Institute's live blogging.
The most Obama-esque (c. 2008) part of the speech is here at the end, when I imagine most have switched the channel.
Kennedy's still dead.
I'm thinking some of the senators he mentioned were surprised to learn that they were "good friends" with Senator Kennedy.
I DO NOT WANT THE GOVERNMENT "LOOKING OUT FOR ME."
You guys should at least hunch your shoulders as he tells you off.
It's difficult to have a conversation when you're told to stop talking.
Do we still have to trash a previous administration to prop up the current administration?
Well, no. The only way Obama's tenure in office can be viewed as anything other than a complete and total disaster is if its countless problems are all somebody else's fault.
Obama failed tonight. He offered no new ideas so he gained no new ground.
He is truly a non-fighter, maybe even a tad lazy. He thinks presidents simply issue edicts to their subjects.
It is like a root canal to listen to his tough talk and flat out claims that he can decrease costs by giving more care to more people. He only states that private insurance companies will not be allowed to limit coverage and policy payout ever, which he fails to say makes private Insurance impossible to offer at a fair price...Presto we must pick the government plan that uses taxes to bail out the Government Plan so that it will sell at a fair price even without those limits in a real Insurance plan. That's about it. All the rest is baloney and wild claims of his good will that requires us to trust the good King Obama.
I DO NOT WANT THE GOVERNMENT "LOOKING OUT FOR ME."
Good. I have some lead-based Chinese toothpaste I can send you.
That's an hour of prime time that the networks will never get back.
Given their eager complicity to get him elected, well, it's what they deserve.
@ Sydney: I hope it wasn't "Bottle of Smoke." Because that would be racist!
finally over.
ugh.
More of the same.
DO IT BECAUSE I SAY SO! CRISIS! But it doesn't kick in for four years.
It's all gonna be for free. It's gonna be friggin' paradise I tellya, friggin' paradise.
I can't believe anyone is watching.
I'm not.
I see we have a literalist.
"Looking out for me" is a government that assumes it's my nanny.
Thank you very much, but I don't need that. Really.
Trust me. Olbermann, Matthews, Fineman, and Maddow will spin this as the greatest contribution to rhetoric since the "I have a Dream" speech.
Some things are predictable.
Waiting for Sarah Palin's You Tube smackdown of this turkey.
He only states that private insurance companies will not be allowed to limit coverage and policy payout ever, which he fails to say makes private Insurance impossible to offer at a fair price
Public option is starting to look better and better to private insurers, I'll bet. If they can dump unprofitable customers on the public, why not?
Consider flood insurance. Private insurers wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot-pole, so it's offered only by Uncle Sugar. Or earthquake insurance in California. Fire insurers used to offer it -- until 1989. They still can, but most refer homeowners to plans offered by the state Earthquake Authority.
I DO NOT WANT THE GOVERNMENT "LOOKING OUT FOR ME."
To: All Law Enforcement Agencies and Department of Defense
Re: miller
Please do not provide, at the request of the above named citizen, any further preventive aid or defensive assistance on behalf of said citizen.
The trouble with spending other people's money is someday you'll run out.
Of course, we're spending the Chinese people's money.
La-la-la-la-la we'll never have to pay it back I have my fingers in my ears 2 Trillion Dollars is nothing to worry about we'll make it up in savings that are unspecified la-la-la-la-la
C-SPAN says Rep. Joe Wilson of SC shouted out that O was a liar, so someone's dream has come true.
Well yeah, "looking our for me" is exactly the same as providing for police services.
I don't think the police "look out for me." They actually look out for criminals. I don't want them "looking out for me." They might want to spin it that way because it sounds all fluffy.
Obama is actually very weak. He did not have the guts to go out and really sell this piece of crap.
Even William Macy, a dweeb car salesman in the movie Fargo had the balls to add a charge for the car undercoating when the customer adamantly said he would not pay for it.
A speech is not a legislative plan. It's just a list of things he wants.
This speech changed nothing. There was absolutely nothing new in the speech, except for calling Americans "lying" "bickerers".
I don't see how you can call Americans liars and expect them to support your plan.
Name-calling is not leadership.
Obama's rookie political skills were on display tonight.
Joe Wilson: a great American.
"Looking out for me" is a government that assumes it's my nanny.
I'm pretty sure the government will not tell you to sit straight, comb your hair, or ask if you've done all your homework.
Joe Wilson for President. :)
Well, he is the President, so he gets to tell us when to shut up. He did, you know, "win" and we "lost," so like good losers we need to just stop talking and let him do what he wants.
Yep, that's the way to get things done.
Now how many bills did he get passed whilst he was a US Senator?
Dead Kennedys
Children with cancer
Oh he's not even being the magical orator...it's all become so predictable.
His plan is Unicorn Farts.
Just like alternative energy.
Major kudos to the one who called him out as a liar about his false claim that illegal aliens won't get health care. It's the first thing Brian Williams commented on, then I changed the channel to Glee.
He threatened Chicago machine thuggery to anyone who criticizes him.
Classssseeeeee.
Uh Oh ...
Lead headline on MSNBC (in very small type) is:
"Obama open to other health ideas"
Sounds like his own network agrees that Obama has run out of ideas.
Private insurers wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot-pole, so it's offered only by Uncle Sugar. Or earthquake insurance in California.
You can get private earthquake insurance in California. I should know; I have it.
Of course, we're spending the Chinese people's money.
I'm sure you protested bitterly when W. funded his war with Chinese people's money.
Understand I'm expert at sign language, if I do say so myself, and as a result quite knowledgeable on reading body language. I'm very astute on reading gestures.
Therefore, I'm qualified to observe Obama with the sound off and make as much of it as anybody. This is precisely how Obama is perceived on mute, and this is all you'll ever need to know about his latest speech on healthcare:
(missed the beginning, but this is where I picked up)
Needle point, needle point, needle point.
Flatten out fabric.
Needle point, needle point, needle point.
*clap clap clap*
Stretch the fabric
*stand and clap* *pan the clappers*
point, needlepoint, over there.
Level. Higher.
*really clap, stand and clap*
This here needlepoint.
*stand and clap*
This big block of needlepointing. Needlepoint needlepoint.
*clap*
This here needlepoint fabric, it moves forward.
Globe.
Flip forward, rock a baby
Needle point the other side.
*Stand and clap*
Expand. Needlepoint. Open a book.
Expand. Expand. Needlepoint.
You. Needlepoint.
This here box. One.
McCaine smiles, "My teeth are old, but they're my teeth."
My needlepoint.
Skippy needlepoint over there.
Needlepoint other hand.
Needlepont original hand.
Expand fabric.
Needle point, shift hands.
Wrap up my needlepoint
*clap*
Shift this box to here, to here, to here.
Needle point this little thing.
THIS NEEDLE!
Rainbow.
Expand, Shift the box.
Here's a spatula.
Expand this.
Over there.
Something grew quickly. One.
*thinks*
One. I warn you.
Needlpoint. Expand. Expand. One. Needlpoint.
Paper.
*listens attentively*
*claps*
"Hi up there, I'm Barney!"
One over here, over there.
You. Warning.
One.
Z.
*"What?"*
No Way. Orb.
Needlepoint myself. One.
Other one.
One one one one one. this. warning.
*stand and clap* *sit as a couple*
let us pray. Expand. Flip down.
Advance.
Expand. Thumbs up!
Expand. Here here here.
Expand. Move the box.
Expand. Advance. You over there.
*stand and clap* *Clap like Germans* *Sit in unison*
Expand. Point.
*stand and clap*
You. Needle point point point, shift hand. Expand. This here. This here. Expand. Close.
Needlpoint. Shift hand needlepoint.
Flip forward. Back to this.
(continues below …)
(… continued from above)
Shift the box. Advance the box. Here's the box.
*clap* *maybe clap, don't clap*
Let's pray. You. Him over there. One up there.
Dismiss that. This here. Here. Here. Here. Point over there.
Move my marbles. Chop the wood. Needlepoint with other hand
*stand and clap*
God.
Warning. Correct the dog.
Expand.
Needlepoint. Expand. Thumbs up!
*stand and clap*
Now this ONE. You. Needlepoint finished.
Expand, what the hell?
Restitch this needlepoint.
*stand and clap*
Expand. One thing: Needlepoint. Needlepoint other hand.
Needlepoint other hand. Shift the block.
Chop and needlepoint.
Needlepoint. Hey there, needlepoint.
*clap like seals*
Needlepoint.
Expand expand. Shrink shrink. Over there. Box box.
*Lieberman smirks*
*clap*
This here box.
Put something in the box.
Calm down over there.
*stand and clap*
Expand, set forward. Needlepoint. No way.
*Jump to feet clapping, others remain sitting.*
This box gets bigger. No way. Close the box.
Expand. Shrink Expand. Needlepoint. Box. Move the box. Dismiss the box.
Needlepoint.
One.
Needlepoint other hand. Needlepoint. Needlepont.
*make grave faces*
Needlepoint needlepoint. Top off the needlepointing.
*stand and clap solemnly*
*Biden laughs*
*Pan the audience clapping* *sits*
I have here … some needlepointing.
Three of you there.
Electricity. Flip.
Needlepoint needlepoint.
*clap*
My sagging tits.
Needlepoint. Needlepoint this box.
*stand and clap* *sit*
Left handed needlepoint. Right hand chop, Left hand needlepoint. Right handed needle point. Expand the box. Shrink the box. Expand. You. This thing. Warning.
*scratch nose*
Grows. Shifts. Sets down
*stand and clap* *yawn* *clap like Germans*
Chop chop needlepoint. Finish. Warn.
Chopy chop. Circle forward.
Expand.
Headline reads.
Circle forward. Turn upward. This little thing here.
Expand. Flip. Dismiss.
Park this car.
*lost in thought*
*necktie strobes*
Needlepoint. Expanding box. Needlepoint shift hands needlepoint.
*that's a sad story*
Wheel forward.
Plop the paper.
This box.
Supress.
Needlepoint.
Toss the salt.
Needlepoint.
*McCain WTF?*
Needlepoint.
Switch hand needlepoint.
This emphatic needlepont.
Come over here, needlepoint.
Ambidextrous needlepointing.
Rein the horse.
Needlepoint
Keep it down.
Here. Here. Here.
Needlepoint.
Needlepoint.
*Biden frowns*
*Biden chokes*
Needlepoint
Swat the fly, needlepoint with other hand.
I have.
Dismiss.
Bring it in.
Circle forward. Needlepoint.
*Stand and clap* *clap hard*
Stretch neck. This fenced in yard. Needlepoint. Dip the teabag.
*jump to feet, applaud* *clap like Germans*
Hey you over there, shake my hand. Shake my hand. Shake my hand. Shake my hand. You! Shake my hand. Thank you. Thank you. Shake my hand. Thank you.
"Rookie political skills"?... WYSIWYG brother.
We have seen Obama's best pitches.
That is all Obama has....no slider, no change up and no curveball.
Hence, there will be no improvement and no growing into the office. That would take energy, effort and initiative which he seems to lack.
It will be a long, long four years according to Murphy's Law.
Please do not provide, at the request of the above named citizen, any further preventive aid or defensive assistance on behalf of said citizen.
Perhaps your experiences have been different. Every time I have been the victim of a crime, the police showed up either hours later or not at all.
For crime prevention, I paid for door locks, an alarm system, and a couple of powerful firearms.
"Rookie political skills"?... WYSIWYG brother.
We have seen Obama's best pitches.
That is all Obama has....no slider, no change up and no curveball.
Hence, there will be no improvement and no growing into the office. That would take energy, effort and real new ideas which he seems to lack.
It will be a long, long four years according to Murphy's Law.
yes, actually I did.
but thanks for asking.
I am glad you are of the opinion that if GW Bush did it then it's excusable for obama to do it.
Well he finally mentions the Iraq and Afghanistan wars-
Add it all up, and the plan I’m proposing will cost around $900 billion over ten years – less than we have spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars...
Somehow this is just.so. classy.
You can get private earthquake insurance in California.
I wasn't clear, then. Most fire insurers were happy to get out of the business, and just act as agents for the CEA. Who still offers their own policies, if you don't mind saying?
I'm sure you protested bitterly when W. funded his war with Chinese people's money.
I protested that he was funding domestic social programs with borrowed money instead of cutting them. So far as I'm concerned, the Iraq war was paid for with taxes. :)
The government is good at big things such as fighting wars in the sense that they can, if they will, win them.
But it's pretty terrible at lots of other things.
I suspect that government health care will be more like the post office than the IRS in terms of efficiency & quality of employees.
As Cato pointed out, if there's $600 billion in wasted money in the government, why not just go after that?
Obama needs new advisers. Axelrod and Rahm aren't cutting it.
This speech was weak sauce.
"I'm sure you protested bitterly when W. funded his war with Chinese people's money."
Well the left certainly did and democrats certainly did!
The speech was truly mediocre in that it moved no politician to change his/her mind.
It was a speech; what follow-through will he show?
He doesn't appear to even be engaged in this debate. He knows how to speak, but he could easily speak just as flowingly on any other topic.
WV: hello, as in "hello I'm from the government and I'm here to help you."
The protest about spending by the left didn't center around the fact we were borrowing the money. It centered around the fact that they wanted the money to be spent on social programs. They were OK with spending.
I am ashamed of the Republicans actions during the reign of Bush. Spent my grandchildren's money to fund wild schemes.
But they're pikers compared to the Democrats and the president.
The smell of fear and denial is strong in this comment box. Prediction - health care reform bill signed by Obama before the end of the year. Merry Christmas!
Axelrod is being interviewed on O'Reilly and he (Axelrod) is a poor speaker and seems down right stunned by people who know the real facts he can only spin. Very interesting.
I did not watch the speech, as I don't watch politicians give speeches.
However, seeing as how Althouse apparently gave up a few minutes in, it must have been either really awful or really brilliant. If awful, she just walked away. If brilliant, she's crafting something hopefully insightful.
So which is it?
Prediction - health care reform bill signed by Obama before the end of the year.
Democrats have a supermajority in Congress. They could pass and sign a bill tomorrow if they wanted.
The reason they haven't isn't because Republicans are uncooperative. It is because they know their bill will be about as popular as rectal cancer with the voters. They need Republicans to give them cover, so that when the budget and the health care system both go tits-up the blame doesn't fall entirely on Democrats.
Republicans have no incentive to play along. There may be a bill signed by December, but it obviously won't be any of the ones the Democrats are kicking around now.
Obama's central problem, which seems unlikely ever to disappear, is that he believes he can talk his way around real and intractable problems. It's all moot court, all the time with this guy.
@somefeller, the smell of fear is because I believe that Obama-inspired healthcare "reform" will be bad for the country in general and bad for my wife and kids in particular.
So I hope you're wrong. I think you're wrong, at least in part because looking at the polls, it appears that any person who votes for healthcare, unless their constituency is deep blue, is looking for a return to civilian life after their next election.
BTW, Barack Obama is an orator? Next to George Bush and gaffe-a-minute Joe Biden perhaps so. But on an absolute scale, I think he'd have settled for a C in my high school speech class.
Somefeller...I agree that there is a smell of fear, but it is coming from Chaiman Obama and his politboro. Their plan was to trick the voters and run away with the loot. This time the voters were awake when the burglars came in the middle of the night. The Pelossi-Obama team has been seriously spooked by Sarah Palin's calling them out like an Elijah on Mt Carmel.
if GW Bush did it then it's excusable for obama to do it.
the US is suffering from some serious systematic problems that are not going to be resolved overnight. Increasing income inequality means that the top ten percent of earners earned half of all household income (2007 data). Cutting taxes on this favored few while increasing spending on foreign wars sent w. hat in hand to Red China. Cutting labor costs by shipping production to China made our rich richer while making the average American poorer -- except he can buy more consumer goods by shipping dollars to China which they turn around and lend to the US govt.
capice?
Where is that Obama excuse-o-mat, Jeremy? That drivel peddler who constantly drops nuggets like"God lord the man has only been in office XXX days. He's got 65, 60, 55, 50.....percent approval ratings, all you wingnuts do is bitch and moan."?
I can hardly wait for his take on this.
Earlier today, Sarah palin's writers gave her something she could put her name to in the WSJ.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574400581157986024.html?mod=djemEditorialPage
Some good ideas, but also their feeding her the old "death panels formed of unelected bureaucrats" jeremiad.
It will be interesting to hear from other Republicans - ones who know what they are talking about - from being in the heathcare field or from making great leaps to reform it in the face of budgetary realities (Bobby Jindal, Tom Coburn, and Mitt Romney in particular). It is particularly time for Romney and Jindal to step up. Both guys know that the healthcare status quo is now financially unsustainable and morally questionable and we are far past Reagans "Free markets for freedom lovers" solve any budget problem and "best in the world!!" boasting.
The speech Obama's writers set to be put out on his silver tongue also had some good ideas, but much missing.
Tort reform is huge, and I think it will be a sort of sacrificial rook that Obama will proffer up at the right time to eliminate that excuse of the "Freedom Lovers!!" and old Reagan free market worshippers.
But Republicans are in a losing game. They kicked the healthcare crisis down the road for decades after Nixon saw the writing on the wall and tried to fix it before it became catastrophic for the whole US economy. Stopped by conservative Republicans, by Teddy Kennedy's inflexible partisanship, and Watergate. Now 35 years later, we finally are left with no choice but to deal with it.
And the best the Republicans could do was offer premium-priced drugs to seniors with no increase in taxes - funding it with more government debt until what they thought was "supply side growth" would pay for it all.
Now they have to join in. All Sarah Palin's screaming about death panels and other cute slogans her writers feed her will not stop it.
There will be a compromise, and it will not be something left wing or right wing people are happy about.
And it is time for Romney and Jindal to step out of the shadows and work with the Governors, businesses, moderate Dems, and the remaining Republicans left in the Imperial City - to deal with fixing all the neglect since Nixon's day without cutting all American's throats in the process.
Increasing income inequality means that the top ten percent of earners earned half of all household income (2007 data).
And paid 71.22% of the income tax. Up from 67.33% at the end of Clinton's second term.
Income inequality isn't a problem. Most Americans are emotionally mature enough to enjoy happy lives even through Paris Hilton is rich. The real problem the country faces is that the majority of eligible voters no longer have to pay for the government spending they vote for. That's an unsustainable situation. That's why we're facing the largest budget gap in human history right now.
I protested that he was funding domestic social programs with borrowed money instead of cutting them. So far as I'm concerned, the Iraq war was paid for with taxes. :)
I like that, Revenant. It's like one of those reversible jackets; goes with everything.
However, seeing as how Althouse apparently gave up a few minutes in, it must have been either really awful or really brilliant.
I think Althouse feels seduced and abandoned. She's not going to fall for his pretty talk again.
Democrats have a supermajority in Congress. They could pass and sign a bill tomorrow if they wanted.
That's only somewhat true. A few Blue Dogs can join with the very unified anti-reform Republicans to block a bill. But, in the end, that's not going to happen. If anything, the town halls showed a lot of Democrats that they are going to be attacked and lied about no matter what they do, so they may as well stick with the party. Either hang together or hang separately, as the saying goes. There is still a lot of intra-party debate on where to go with this, but in the end, the logic of victory is too much to ignore. A bill will pass. Maybe not one with a strong governmental public option, but one will pass nonetheless.
The Pelossi-Obama team has been seriously spooked by Sarah Palin's calling them out like an Elijah on Mt Carmel.
I'll give you credit, you always bring the funny.
Sarah Palin coining "death panels" plus the town hall mtgs and add the disgrace of Van Jones.
Before long, we will learn about barrels of stimulus money being steered to or stolen by Obama and Dem cronies. Next come the indictments and the trials just before The Fall.
I still believe we can replace acrimony with civility. We need to not demagog our opponents or use scare tactics and spread disinformation. So all you racist, hillybilly tea bagging nazis better shut the f up.
We need to put aside partisanship and come toghether and incorporate the best common sense ideas from all sides. So all you republicans, stop being so partisan and simply vote for this even though it has nothing you want and you were denied access to the enactment of the bill. And remember I won (you racist teabagging nazis)!And screw you tort reform!
My plan is all about saving money even though the CBO is saying my plan will cost money and even though my ideas don't actually save any money (like preventive care).
I know there’s been a lot of misinformation in this debate. And there’s some folks out there who are, frankly, bearing false witness. But we need reform now and this bill is too important for us to simply do nothing which is what the evil racist nazi republicans are suggesting. And even though this plan wont actually take effect for 4 years or so.
I like that, Revenant. It's like one of those reversible jackets; goes with everything.
So long as the government programs I actually support can be paid for with existing tax revenue, I consider myself absolved of any blame for deficits.
C-4...Are you afraid of Sarah Palin too? And how can you presume that she can never be skilled enough to write down political arguements after she has spent 15 years of successfully being a politician in Alaska? Get real.
Either hang together or hang separately, as the saying goes.
Or vote with the Republicans against the bill, and then your Republican opponents can't "lie" about your health care vote at all.
Which is what is actually going to happen. When push comes to shove nobody in Congress cares about anything as much as they care about getting re-elected. Americans are against Obama's plan, and Americans in "blue dog" districts even more strongly so.
during the idyllic Reagan years, the top ten percent earned a third of all income yet paid half of all income tax.
Are you kidding? This guy's speaking style makes me feel like I need to take notes cause it'll be on the exam. I left that behind 32 years ago.
If I'm going to watch reruns, I prefer NCIS.
Bill will pass, we'll move on to the next thing, health care will be improved to some extent. Life will go on and the fight will go on. Exhaustion with Obama by middle-aged white women will shade into familiar contempt, like I had with Bush, that will one day approach some mix of pity and affection when he is gone.
But I found that speech to be pretty entertaining viewing!
Which is what is actually going to happen. When push comes to shove nobody in Congress cares about anything as much as they care about getting re-elected. Americans are against Obama's plan, and Americans in "blue dog" districts even more strongly so.
As far as where Americans are on the issue, that depends what you ask and when. The main thing Americans seem to like is a winner, and if Obama pulls off a win on this, it makes all Democrats run stronger. Plus, most Congressman are in safe districts and most Senators aren't up for re-election in 2010, so that plays in favor of passage of a bill.
Income inequality isn't a problem.
Ask Marie Antoinette.
I'm thinking some of the senators he mentioned were surprised to learn that they were "good friends" with Senator Kennedy.
I disagree. I think they all go out for drinks together and laugh at the people who aren't in the Senate. That's very bonding. So I think they are all good friends.
Was this speech the sort of thing Camille Paglia was complaining about in her article, all rhetorical flourishes and appeals to feelings?
If so, then Obama has failed again.
I'm sick of a President who can only string words together in seemingly coherent sentences (as the left was always saying about Obama) I want someone who can reason.
@somefeller, here's the problem I have with you and your foolish attitude. All you want to do is score wins versus loses. You don't seem to know, much less care, what's actually in HR 3200, and whether it's good or bad for America.
@fls, I think I agree with you about incomes. I think we should start with football players. Millions of dollars to catch an occasional pass? Clearly wide receivers don't need multi-million dollar salaries. And linemen? They hardly ever even touch the ball and yet they make hundreds of thousands of dollar, sometimes right out of college. I nominate you to get to the nearest NFL training facility and tell the players that for the sake of America you plan to redistribute their income. I suggest you start with the linebackers and defensive line.
And don't get me started on the money dragged down by over-the-hill singers whose pipes are flat out gone. If Streisand can't live on social security alone then that's her problem.
Americans arent against it, Rev.
They are for it. You are here to hear people of like mind and that might have warped yours.
But you can still hate everything THE ONE, Barry, does.
Major Kudos to you Kentucky Liz-you shine like a starburst. Charmed!
@somefeller, here's the problem I have with you and your foolish attitude. All you want to do is score wins versus loses. You don't seem to know, much less care, what's actually in HR 3200, and whether it's good or bad for America.
Yeah, well I am a competitive guy that likes to win. If nothing else, the tears and lamentations of my adversaries are an exquisite pleasure. However, I have a pretty good idea about what the plans are on the table from the Democrats on health care (Obama laid them out tonight), and I'm confident they will be good for America. But, as far as the minutia of what's on page 336 of HB 3200 (prior to reconciliation with the Senate and any other revisions between now and signing), I confess, I don't spend time on that level of detail, unless I'm paid to do so. The wonks can take care of that part.
Well, why even worry about any of the details. Just support whatever comes out of the sausage factory, pay your taxes, and take whatever they give you.
You compliant types are just what the government wants and likes. Perhaps they are truly your friend.
I think we should start with football players.
I think we should start with i-bankers. Specifically the ones who bundled up a bunch of subprime and alt-A mortgages, and got Moody's and Standard & Poors to rate them AAA.
Well, why even worry about any of the details. Just support whatever comes out of the sausage factory, pay your taxes, and take whatever they give you.
Do you know every detail of every bill that you care about? For example, every jot and jittle of each of the federal budgets of the last several years? Of course not, no one can or does. So can the self-righteous blather.
If there's all that waste it should be rooted out regardless of any new programs. It's like he's holding us hostage---"I'll waste your money unless you let me spend it on my new program."
WTF, doesn't anyone care??
Do you know every detail of every bill that you care about?
The bill is too complex -- better to scrap the whole health care system and start with a clean slate for single-payer.
Oh, I get it.
"It not convenient for me to follow the argument, because my government betters will take care of me."
Bills I care about I follow. I even download them and read them. And I call my representative or write e-mails. (I've e-mailed our senators, but they're useless sycophants--whatever a (D) proposes is diamonds; whatever an (R) proposes is horse manure.)
So I'll take being an educated voter, and you can have the sit-back-and-take-whatever-you get corner.
FLS, I agree with you. Scrap it and start over with only single payer. No exceptions.
"I think Althouse feels seduced and abandoned. She's not going to fall for his pretty talk again."
For once, I agree with FLS, but I think his snark is actually one of the leading tones to Obama's political death knell. A lot of people wanted to believe the pretty lies. (Or at least a subset of them; it's amazing the number of people who voted for Obama assuming he was lying to some other constituency than the ones they personally cared about.)
The only people in the end he'll keep are the "My (Democratic) Party, right or wrong" types. That's a good 30% of the population.
Welcome Back, Carter!
Isn't is clear that this guy is an administrative dunce?
If he were running your company or division, you'd be out of a job in a year.
Whatever makes you feel important, Miller. Those of us whose time is valuable know how to spend it properly, and also know that spending a lot of time on the minutia of bills rather than the big picture know that doing so is a mug's game. But, if you want to act like Al Gore wonkishly hectoring George W. Bush about his position on some bill that is still in process, go ahead. As was wisely stated here, arguing over the minutia of legislative proposals is tantamount to two pre-schoolers playing a game of "What If." Such a game may consume the two candidates, but has little to no relevance at all in the adult world. The details of what they propose matter less than the general philosophy behind those proposals.
I'm just relieved to hear that this bill won't cost a single dime.
WV: unking
Chip the Egyptian, thank you I just swallowed an olive whole, snort.
Trad the Attorney: "(Axelrod) is a poor speaker and seems down right stunned by people who know the real facts he can only spin." This reminds me of the Carter boys that he had working for him.
This gang is way out of their league. Sigh. DC is not Chicago.
The sad part is that too many of our countryman believe that they have "rights" that are not constitutional.
"If he were running your company or division, you'd be out of a job in a year."
Yeah, but he's going to last until January 2013. Of course, he'll be out of power in Jan 2011.
The main thing Americans seem to like is a winner, and if Obama pulls off a win on this, it makes all Democrats run stronger.
That explains why Republican victory on the Iraq war resolution led to them having both the White House and a supermajority in Congress.
Oh wait.
Thank god for FOX. SYTYCD and Glee, instead of Obama. Sounds like more of the same. Spin, spin, spin...
That explains why Republican victory on the Iraq war resolution led to them having both the White House and a supermajority in Congress.
No, but it does explain why the GOP won in 2002 and Bush won in 2004. People like the side that looks like its standing for something and being strong. Time makes all victories fade, but it's better to have a victory that fades than the alternative.
Americans arent against it, Rev.
They are for it.
If you actually believe that, ask yourself this:
If Democrats support the bill, and the American people support the bill... why did Obama just give a prime-time speech explaining how important it is to support the bill? According to you he already has all the support he could possibly need. Why hasn't the bill been signed into law already?
somefeller said..."People like the side that looks like its standing for something and being strong."
Is that why they lost the last election?
What is is this... the gathering of the dumb?
No, but it does explain why the GOP won in 2002 and Bush won in 2004.
But it doesn't explain why the Republicans lost in 1992 and 1996.
Or 2008, for that matter.
Greta Van Susterin just asked how she can invite six more people for Thanksgiving dinner and not increase her food bill? Good one Greta - I suggest you invite Obama and the Dems over to cook for you!
So glad to see I'm in such good company. Rose was wrote the first comment 2 1/2 years ago, and those were some of my sentiments at the time. I was making a point of staying away from the tv or radio or anyplace where I might hear him droning on with the usual lies and distortions.
word verification: cakers
we know what birthers and truthers are; so maybe cakers are people who think that this speech may have been a Marie Antoinette moment.
"Yeah, well I am a competitive guy that likes to win. If nothing else, the tears and lamentations of my adversaries are an exquisite pleasure"
LOL, this from the guy who starts crying and screaming racist at modest questioning of AA? You're weak. That's why you put up such a ridiculous front. That's why you delete half your comments. There's no need for that. This is the internet and it's not that important. Take a chill pill.
I like how you can win an argument:
Don't object to the bill because you don't know what's in it - trust your representatives.
But I don't trust them.
Fine. Then waste your time reading the bills. People like me are content to let the government do whatever it wants, because there's a (D) after the name.
You do understand you're a citizen & not a subject, right?
But it doesn't explain why the Republicans lost in 1992 and 1996.
Or 2008, for that matter.
Actually, it does. Would you say that Bush in 1992, Dole in 1996 or McCain in 2008 looked like strong, resolute leaders of a confident political party that stood for something? Obviously, there are a lot of factors that go into political victory, but don't underestimate the importance of how victory feeds itself, and how people will rally around the party that looks like it's dealing from a position of strength.
Kurt, I'm jealous of your WV. It's a great new meme.
mine is boring:
WV: deadt, as in "Bambi spoke at great length about how he would increase the national deadt."
LOL, this from the guy who starts crying and screaming racist at modest questioning of AA? You're weak. That's why you put up such a ridiculous front. That's why you delete half your comments. There's no need for that. This is the internet and it's not that important. Take a chill pill.
Er, no, I delete them from time to time and then repost them immediately if I see typos in them. I'm something of a perfectionist. But, if all you can do is type "LOL" and lose debates, I guess you do the best with what you have.
Would you say that Bush in 1992, Dole in 1996 or McCain in 2008 looked like strong, resolute leaders of a confident political party that stood for something?
That's an obvious "yes" in the first two cases. Bush had just won a war and presided over the final collapse of the Soviet Union, and Dole was running just after the Republicans had swept to a crushing victory in the '94 midterms, retaking Congress for the first time in two generations.
Fine. Keep posting your scintillating predictions of a win by December the birth of the Messiah.
Oh wait. Wrong Messiah.
WV: pansiz, the armament of the laid-back
Rev, all I can say to that is, while I'd agree with you on some of the background facts you cite, most observers I've heard, including most Republican ones, wouldn't use words like strong or resolute to describe how Bush 41 and Dole (both of whom I voted for, actually, I was a Republican in those days) looked or campaigned in those years.
If Democrats support the bill, and the American people support the bill... why did Obama just give a prime-time speech explaining how important it is to support the bill?
Why do Christians go to church every week? Surely they've already made the decision to be Christians, and surely they've already heard everything the preacher might say. Further, how could Billy Graham fill stadiums?
Terrible analogy, Former. Just not good. Preachers aren't convincing people who come to church to vote for church. They are providing a service to people.
And your posts have been fairly decent all day.
"Income inequality isn't a problem."
Even if you think it is, do you seriously think it's solvable, and are you sure you want that society with no upward mobility, no challenge, no motivation no incentive, no dreams. We are not ants, nor do I want to be.
I really don't understand the income inequality argument. Rich people get richer. Do you think they printed the money?
No, you silly Marxist. They added value to the world.
Greta Van Susterin just asked how she can invite six more people for Thanksgiving dinner and not increase her food bill?
That's easy. Invite six old people and don't wheel them to the table when dinner is served.
Leave them in front of the TV.
Maybe Obama will blow them a kiss.
At this rate he'll probably be giving a speech on Thanksgiving too.
Quayle -- Relax. That's nine speeches from now.
LOL @ Chip Ahoy. That was great.
former law student wrote: I'm pretty sure the government will not tell you to sit straight, comb your hair, or ask if you've done all your homework.
Yesterday, I did see Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius demonstrates how to properly cough in order to avoid spreading the flu.
Quayle:
Good one!
wv = canfo
He should have opened with a virgin sacrifice and a promise of a boffo closing where he would have an enemy of the state, rumors are swirling that it is to be either Dick Cheney or Ronald Reagan(until the eager beavers were told that Reagan was dead). Then, like Geraldo looking for Capone's vault, simply bored us to death but kept us watching for fear of missing the last act.
Remember the movie "A day without Mexicans"? Imagine "A day without income disparity". Most of what you have, love and depend on would disappear, because nobody would want to make it for you. This includes music, movies, art, houses, medicine, food, pretty much everything.
There really is not a lamer idea.
Why do Christians go to church every week?
You've obviously let the whole "Obama is the Messiah" thing go to your head.
Seriously, though, think what you're saying. Obama demanded a chunk of prime-time television... so that he could preach to the converted? On somebody else's dime? The nicest thing you could say about your theory is that Obama's egotism has gotten completely out of hand.
Fortunately, of course, you're entirely wrong. Obama is preaching to America because the majority of Americans think his plan is bunk.
I saw the speech. He's persuasive and uplifting so long as he sticks to generalities. But those damn facts kept dropping like guana from his flights of fancy. He says that the 600b savings in medicare and medicaid will go a long way to fund this plan. If Sarah said something like that she would wink at the audience to let them know that they're sharing a joke.
Remember the movie "A day without Mexicans"? Imagine "A day without income disparity".
Scary thought. I'm smarter and harder-working than the vast majority of Americans. A day without income disparity is a day when I'm underpaid.
Most of what you have, love and depend on would disappear, because nobody would want to make it for you. This includes music, movies, art, houses, medicine, food, pretty much everything.
That's such a load of shit. Not everyone lives in Southern California, Tucson or El Paso.
(Interestingly, the Del Taco I go to near work appears to have mostly people from Central America working there, not Mexico. Still, not being able to eat at Del Taco would be an minor inconvenience, not a disappointment)
Joe -- I think you read that comment wrong.
I am still laughing at Quayle @10:40...that comment needs to be sent into SNL for a skit to be written about this clusterf--k of a Presidential plan.
We had friends over for dinner. Grilled filets, salad with sugar snaps, baked potato, a little merlot and some good laughs. No Obama at all, but a discussion of how it all might fall apart.
These are legacy liberal Dems who I think abandoned Obama and the Democrats over the last cycle.
WV = creative
really
Speaking of Kathleen Sibelius, I thought she looked a bit nervous when the camera panned to her after Obama said that Medicare (another government plan) was not working. I was imagining her thinking, "Was it wise of him to say that?"
A bit later we realize he had to say that, because this is where he was getting all his money to cover the additional people - Medicare waste and fraud.
Someone's nose is gonna grow tonight.
"Do you know every detail of every bill that you care about?"
"The bill is too complex -- better to scrap the whole health care system and start with a clean slate for single-payer."
Bolsheviks had that attitude in 1917... how'd that work out again?
OTOH, you'd got something there. Let's have a clean slate - Health care freedom: Abolish all health insurance mandates, abolish all rules, abolish the tax laws that encourage employer-funded health insurance, abolish state level restrictions and allow insurance to be bought across state lines, abolish the restrictions on medical practice that drives up costs, abolish the junk lawsuits, end medicare and medicaid, wipe the slate FULLY clean ... have COMPLETE health care freedom ... and then ask:
What do we need to make sure those who are unable to afford their own care get assistance?
We might be shocked at how different, how cheaper, how better, and how freer, that system ends up being.
Diamondhead said..."Still not even a single attempt to refute the argument that illegal aliens will benefit under the so-called public option."
Which part of the speech related to this?
And once again: He made it perfectly clear: NO COVERAGE FOR ILLEGALS.
You're lying.
Penny - You're a fucking moron.
Revenant - Didn't even see the movie did you, dipstick?
"That's only somewhat true. A few Blue Dogs can join with the very unified anti-reform(1) Republicans to block a bill.(2) But, in the end, that's not going to happen. If anything, the town halls showed a lot of Democrats that they are going to be attacked and lied(3) about no matter what they do, so they may as well stick with the party.(4)"
mmmmmmmm, kool-aid. yum.
(1) READ HR 3400, GOP alternative. It smokes.
(2) MINIMUM of 44 Dem "NO" votes on public option. It is SUNK.
(3) LIAR! Most of the 'lies' told about Obamacare are ... true. Like the CBO costs estimates or the lack of verification in hr3200 to prevent illegal aliens ffrom getting benefits - facts are stubborn. Being a DNC-robot-hack is unbecoming.
(4) Enjoy your retirement, Congressman!
Neither I nor (judging from its box office) anybody else saw the movie, Jeremy. But I lived through the real "day without Mexicans", and the only effect was that the freeway traffic was reduced.
The popular sentiment here in Southern California was "if that's what a day is like, let's go for a week".
Any real American who listened tot the speech, in it's entirety, and is whining and bitching about it is an un-AMerican piece of shit...oh...and you know it, too.
What a bunch of really depressing and disgusting people you are.
I'd feel sorry, but you're such hateful people I think you're too far gone.
Is it racism?
Revenant - "A day without Mexicans?" wasn't created to garner "box office."
You're a Cretin.
They are providing a service to people.
That's a rather vague description. They are preaching the Gospel -- a wholly unnecessary service to those many congregants who have read the Bible cover to cover many times.
Freedom's Truth - Since you're usual tirade relates to $$$$$$$...where the fuck were you during the 8 years of BUSH??
The wars and the tax cuts are MORE than any health care reforms.
Oh, and how are the WARS and those tax cuts working out?
They are preaching the Gospel -- a wholly unnecessary service to those many congregants who have read the Bible cover to cover many times.
No they are providing a place where a service can be held that is ritualistic and which is part of the christian tradition (and which is ongoing) . So to argue that it is unecessary is completely erroneous. That would be like saying Muslems don't have to pray or fast because they've read the koran a couple of times.
FLS -- What a foolish statement. Most people who go to church have never read so much as one book of the Bible, and what they have read they don't understand for a bevy of reasons, mostly self-imposed. You obviously know very little about churchgoers.
Jeremy wrote:
Oh, and how are the WARS and those tax cuts working out?
Jeremy you do know that Obama has escalated the war in Afghanistan don't you?
The asshole's website who called President Obama a Liar:
Joe Wilson
This site is down for maintenance.
Please check back again soon.
Do you wonder why?
jr565 - Actually Obama has pulled most out of Iraq while trying to handle inherited situation in Afghanistan.
You know...where we SHOULD have been in the first place?
You don't read much, much do you?
Seven Nachos Short - BIBLE EXPERT.
Now, that...is funny.
I hear Obama's war in Afghanistan is going poorly. We won in Iraq. The tax cuts were outstanding. I only wish that there could have been a corresponding cut in government expenditures.
Of course, Bush's budgets were exceedingly modest compared to Obama's, and Obama's federal government will have less money as he raises taxes, and the inescapable logic of the Laffer Curve coupled with the inescapable facts of continued economic malaise decrease tax revenue.
Here's the profile of Seven Nachos Short...you know...the BIBLE EXPERT:
About Me: "The name is from a cologne I saw in a bodega"
What would Jesus say???
Seven - We won, we won!!!
Do you know to read?
Have you read ANYTHING over the past 7 years??
And by the way: What exactly did we win?
I must have hit a nerve.
and the inescapable logic of the Laffer Curve
c'mon 7 -- try something easier to believe in, like Dianetics, chiropractic, or the Easter Bunny. Not Voodoo Economics.
In a free society:
1. If tax rates are zero, tax revenues will be zero;
2. If tax rates are 100 percent, tax revenues will be zero.
With which statement do you disagree? Can you draw a curve with this data? What does it look like?
FLS:
I am curious- have you changed your mind about anything significant in the last 30 years?
Jeff Beck is playing a Beatles song ..I read the news today oh boy
wv - casmog
7M, good summary. I think the average Democrat thinks that a tax rate of 100% will mean tax revenues will be 100% of all income, because people smart enough to make money are still stupid when it comes to long-range planning.
How's that working in NY state?
WV: brillism, Lady Ophelia's belief that all she needed was a strong enough scrubbing pad
My original comment about the movie had nothing to do with Mexicans. My point was that income disparity is responsible for most everything we have, hell maybe even the love of a wife sometimes.
If you have been following and understand the arguments about this bill then the President's speech was pretty dishonest and insulting to a lot of people.
John Hinderaker over at Powerline explains it succinctly
here
His closing line is the bottom line:
"This was not, to put it kindly, a speech that was directed at thinking people."
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