September 14, 2009
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115 comments:
Said the same things about Bushy
Needs an Obama is like Bush tag.
Unlike Bush, who was all-powerful.
I still remember the way he tracked down Osama and showed HIM who's boss. Gee, I miss that guy!!
So Al Qaeda and the American Right share a united front in their opposition to Obama.
Al Tea Qaeda.
Yet another point of agreement between the republicans and the terrorists.
yes garage just like the left and al qaeda opposed bush together.
Moveonfrom9/11.org
Al Tea Qaeda.
LOL!
Osama's been digging Cedarford's comments, or maybe reading Walt/Mearsheimer in his cave. Great minds think alike, I guess.
Osama has a point about the Taliban presence in the Afghan Mountains Tribal areas. Neither Bush nor Obama have any power to win there and then pull out like we did in Iraq. The two are totally different cases. Commanding the use of Iraq's strategy into those mountains among those tribes is a guaranteed failure that will also act to discredit Bush's Iraq victory.
Actually, what the opponents of Obama have in common with the opponents of Bush is the belief that too much power is being concentrated in the executive branch.
Is Osama really alive?
How do we know it isn't Sasha Baron Cohen and Roger Moore in cahoots with someone in the CIA just playing us all for some future movie?
Is Osama really alive?
Doubtful. Sometimes I think he is, but usually I'm convinced he's just a decomposing corpse buried under boulders somewhere in a backwards country. Fitting.
Funny, I thought Teh One™ was going to after Osama and the caves he lives in.
Another broken campaign promise just like "I won't mandate universal coverage" - except now, when he is.
Haha.
Does this mean Osama watches Fox News which is the only place where he would have seen much of the tea parties?
I'd have to sign on to NYT in order to read the propaganda they're happy to rely in the name OBL who is probably dead anyway but if still alive is kept nervously looking upward while continuously moving dodging the drones launched by The Won he's calling powerless.
Thus we get a yet another glimpse into the mind of a religious radical without even bothering to log on to NYT.
Oh wait. Shut up, Everybody, shut up. The president is getting ready to speechify again! Right out in the open. It is another day, after all.
The problem in Afghanistan now is contested elections. It's a huge mess.
I don't see how America planned to run a country on the other side of the planet and now that we are I don't see the benefit of doing so. If this is one of Bush's mistakes it's one that Obama hasn't recognized.
I guess I agree with Osama on this point.
How come Obama hasn't offered to meet with Osama and discuss their differences with dignified debate?
"Is Osama really alive?"
No. The perpertaritor of 9/11 was allowed to die of natural causes.
We went after Saddam with everything we got though, so don't feel too bad.
Fuck Al Qeada. We're going to kill them all and they're going to be a historical footnote, yet another pathetic attempt to fight modernity.
The United States of America will prevail, whoever is president, and the enemy will be utterly destroyed. As Churchill said, "they will be ground into powder."
Obama is the President, which means he's the country's war leader. That's one of the President's primary roles whether they like it or not. So far I'm pretty happy with him.
And if OBL hates him, that's a good sign.
Isnt Afghanistan turning into--like maybe a quagmire? How come the MSM isnt giving the daily body count of American KIA.
That said, the al queda propaganda machine is not distinguishing between Bush nor Obama--and certainly nothing to get exercised about in either case. The audience isnt the US; it is the arab world.
I don't see how America planned to run a country on the other side of the planet and now that we are I don't see the benefit of doing so.
Japan, after WWII.
"I'd have to sign on to NYT in order to read the propaganda they're happy to rely in the name OBL who is probably dead anyway but if still alive is kept nervously looking upward while continuously moving dodging the drones launched by The Won he's calling powerless.
Thus we get a yet another glimpse into the mind of a religious radical without even bothering to log on to NYT.
Oh wait. Shut up, Everybody, shut up. The president is getting ready to speechify again! Right out in the open. It is another day, after all."
This is. . . just amazing. The insanity on display is exquisite.
On the one hand, Obama does in fact have Bin Laden on the run, by "launching drones continuously" at him. Yay Obama!
On the other hand, he's a "speechifying" loser who talks a good game.
This is about as close as a conservative will ever come to admit that Obama is their president too. . . and he immediately backtracks.
Good job.
Obama is only powerless in the sense that victory in the war against his muslim brethren makes him uneasy.
A few things:
I honestly think Osama is dead and this tape is done by an imposter.
Obviously the powers that be need to listen to what bin Ladin has to say and study it.. BUT... I don't think we the people should pay any heed to bin Ladin. This is enemy propaganda in a time of war and I don't particularly want to discuss it too closely.
He's saying Obama is powerless... whatever. He's trying to rattle our cages, score points within the crazy muslim community. We shouldn't allow it to affect our decision making process or why we do anything.
I don't like Obama. I don't like anything about him. But I'll be damned if I try to score cheap political points from the threats and taunts of a baby killing monster in a cave in Pakistan.
Al Qeada isn't a talking point. They are mass murdering terrorists.
@Phos:
""Is Osama really alive?"
No. The perpertaritor of 9/11 was allowed to die of natural causes.
When has being turned into burnt gravy by a BLU-118/B been designated
death by 'natural causes'?
Osama has to be dead. I read it on the internet.
Perhaps Osama made a bunch of tapes prior to his death, and that somewhere, there are tapes of him denouncing President Fred Thompson/Hillary Clinton/John Edwards/Mitt Romney as no different from his predecessor and warning . . . .
"Osama has to be dead. I read it on the internet. "
Yes, he got killed exactly at noon, 20th of January, 2009.
"The perpertaritor of 9/11 was allowed to die of natural causes."
Since when is "natural causes" a euphemism for B-52 strikes? Not even al Qaeda knows for sure if he's dead or alive, because his carcass is buried in the rubble of Tora Bora. Funny how pre-9/11 there was plenty of video footage of him, and reporters were able to track him down and meet with him. After 9/11, it's like he dropped completely off the map (other than the audio tapes, which may or may not be him post-Tora Bora). Surely after all this time he would meet with reporters and appear on camera. What does he have to fear?
Crimso- there was the 2004 election video.
Osama is dead and has been for some time. The left just wants to wave his corpse around as a boogy man.
On the other hand, he's a "speechifying" loser who talks a good game.
I've come to the conclusion that Obama is just a sock puppet for Emanuel et al. He's the front man for the powers behind the throne.
"Osama has to be dead. I read it on the internet."
Its an audio recording. Have you seen video cameras recently? They are very small. My still camera takes decent videos.
Audio is easier to fake. You don't have to fake both sound and image.
Odds are still good that he is dead. Buried in the mountains since December 2001.
Obama needs to hire Kanye as his spokesman in the west.
Chip: I'd have to sign on to NYT
As a public service: BugMeNot, for the times when you really want to read but don't want to register.
"Crimso- there was the 2004 election video."
Very choppy. It froze in one place as well.
Plus, that was faked by Fox News to help Bush!
Don't be confused with Al Queda's use of Afghan Tribal Mountain Areas once as a hiding place for a band of guerrilla fighters from Saudi Arabia led by Egyptian strategic thinkers. There are no civilised people there to win over by any massive American occupation. If Osama said that he was in the Smokey Mountains, then a small Ranger force could hunt him like a bear if we wished, but deploying a 100,000 troops to live in the Smokey Mountains to make friends with the rocks and trees would only furnish the bears with more people to eat. If Osama said that he was in control of Pennsylvania, the that would be different because Pennsylvania has people and capital improvements worth fighting for. We should think outside the box and only fight for a win. Even in Pennsylvania, Longstreet once counseled Lee to fight smarter the night before he ordered Pickett's charge on the third day at Gettysburg. Lee did not listen to Longstreet and Pickett's brave men disappeared along with the chance to win the war.
Heh. Another way OBL, or actually his surrogate, is like the American leftoids (remember his Michael Moore-DNC talking points before the 2004 elections?)he's an example of pure projection.
Of course Bush couldn't kill him since he was already dead, but he did defeat AQ in Iraq, and they are now but a shell of what they once were and no longer appealing to recruits.
Mission accomplished.
Meanwhile dumbass Obama called Afghanistan the "good war" and now he's stuck in that impossible shithole with no option but a permanent presence with unending American casualties or ignominious retreat and capitulation. The real world is a rude awakening for those who are perpetual college radicals.
"Mr. bin Laden"
"Mr. bin Laden" ?
It's nice to see the New York Times upholding some of their traditional standards somewhere. Love the period, too.
All they need to do is italicize the name, and we'll know Sir Archy has gotten a job in rewrite. Being dead, I imagine he works cheap.
Sir Archy would also be the perfect journalist to tell us if he's run into "Mr. bin Laden" in the Afterlife; the only problem being that Sir Archy might not additionally forbear to tell us of the Chicago voters he knows.
Gah.
Al Qeada is not like, in any way, any American political party or politician.
They are fucking mass murdering terrorists. They killed 3000 people. What do they have to do to avoid being compared to Bush or Obama?
The world does not revolve around American domestic politics. These are real terrorists, not figurative ones.
Besides the fact that Obama's overtures to the Muslim world seem to have fallen on deaf Osama ears [which could be expected if one assumes Osama is dead] let's face it -- the Muslim world (middle east to Indonesia, I guess) doesn't get that million people (750 - 800,000whatever - - scroll down to mall pix - ) can show up in the capitol protesting and criticizing the leadership of the country (POTUS and Congress) and still support him as the Commander in Chief. (Assuming he actually functions that way is based on some of what leaks out of the news accidentally.)
Meanwhile the anti-war wackos seem amazingly silent on the drone attacks and the ongoing conflict in Afghanistan. Except for poor Cindy Sheehan they seem to have lost their voices.
I think Osama is confused by the Great Satan's citizenship as well as Obama's friend of Islam posture. Osama (and perhaps Obama) sure doesn't know what the Tea Parties are about. So he / his voice keeps recycling the same old same old because it makes his disciples (however many are left) happy and puts him / his name on the media radar. Sticking your tongue out at the big guy makes one look strong. Of course, they make be cooking up some hits here and there while we write.
And I know it's all diplomic poo, but does this administration really think they can have "open" dialogue with the Muslim world? (Pardon my generalization, sensible Muslims in the audience.)
WV = faces
Did you count all the faces in the DC pictures!
Mmm, i think the answer is to ignore osama when he says stuff like this. i think Obama's a wuss on the war on terror, but that calculation is neither helped nor hindered by osama's assessment. its irrelevant to it.
A guy hiding out in caves who is so impotent that he can only manage to release a shoddy, little videotape about once a year is calling another guy powerless.
"I've come to the conclusion that Obama is just a sock puppet for Emanuel et al. He's the front man for the powers behind the throne."
Really?
Now this is remarkable! Because we just got through with a president who was widely accused of being an empty suit controlled by those who surrounded him.
And now we've got another one!
By god. . . next you 'll be saying that Obama is petulant, just like Bush was said to be!!
Laura(southernxyl): Japan, after WWII.
Afghanistan doesn't have some sort of religious/political leader (Emperor) backing what we are doing. It also wasn't stable politically before we came, free of insurgents, or trying to emulate Western societies.
Also, Afghanistan's cash crop is a product that America's government considers illegal.
And so it is decided by the Althousians that Obama is dead.
And so it shall be.
The fact that Bush wished him dead, and that there is no proof (except video and audio records) that says he isn;t dead, settles the question in the minds of the faithful.
Truly, a wonder to see: reality made to order, while you wait.
Osama’s hate filled speech against the president should now expose him as a racist in the eyes of the MSM.
I expect the tone of the MSM with regard to Obama’s war in Afghanistan to become more supportive now that president Obama has been attacked by a hateful racist Osama Bin Laden.
"I expect the tone of the MSM with regard to Obama’s war in Afghanistan to become more supportive now that president Obama has been attacked by a hateful racist Osama Bin Laden."
And of course if that doesn't happen, then the claims that the MSM worships Obama will be proven false, right?
I'm dying to see. . .
Phos:
"And so it is decided by the Althousians that Obama is dead."
First you tell us he died of natural causes then ,because of audio and video, he is resurrected.
Pick one of the above and stick to it.
Not even the Evil one Cheney attacked Obama so openly and daringly.
Osama must be exposed.
The best bin laden video belongs to Seth Meyers
Osama has never apologized, not even once, to president Obama.
Has Osama called Rham Emanuel to apologize for that hateful outburst?
I don’t think so.
I called for a rebuke of Osama in the floor of the House.
Could have sworn I seen Bin Laden in the crowd holding a sign in one of the pics at the Big Tea Party. Something about Tyranny! Oppression!, and a picture of Obama.
Meanwhile Chavez over there, in a second rate little country... does anybody dare say a pip against him?
No way Jose. They just shut you down.
What’s happening to us?
Where is the outrage at this foreigner Osama dising our President like that?
I honestly think Osama is dead and this tape is done by an imposter.
Yep. When just about anybody can get a webcam and upload a video to Youtube, substituting a still picture of Osama bL means he's already burning in Hell.
Hey garage. This phos guy is looking to kick you off the throne of Mt. Stupid. He appears to have the chops to do it too. You gonna stand by and let some new sockpuppet imbecile steal your hard earned "Stupidest Commenter On The Internet" title?
The least they could do is have Hillary revoke his visa status.
Cant she do that?
Freeman Hunt won the thread with this:
"A guy hiding out in caves who is so impotent that he can only manage to release a shoddy, little videotape about once a year is calling another guy powerless."
Has anybody here seen Osama bin Laden?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
He killed a lot of people,
But it seems the good they die young.
You know, we just bombed some rocks and he's gone
A guy hiding out in caves who is so impotent that he can only manage to release a shoddy, little videotape about once a year is calling another guy powerless.
I can only imagine the song and dance if he is captured during Obama’s presidency.
We will never hear the end of it.
And so it is decided by the Althousians that Obama is dead.
And so it shall be.
What the hell, are you trying to get the Secret Service after us? That is Not Cool.
I’ve thought it likely Osama was dead for years, but there have been a few videos (2004) that may not have been fakes. I think if he isn’t dead he is severely hobbled, possibly maimed. Who knows? Yes, it would have been cathartic to pull him in as a prisoner and hold him up to the world, or have his corpse, I suppose, but we don’t have to be obsessed about it.
Bin Laden: "Obama is powerless."
Obama: "Whew, that's a relief."
"First you tell us he died of natural causes then ,because of audio and video, he is resurrected.
Pick one of the above and stick to it."
Very well. . . of course he's alive. He just made a statement, the one we are all talking about.
Conservatives seem to think that OF COURSE he is dead, with very little proof. And they seem to think this because it vindicates everything Bush was up to.
But to have OBL die of natural causes would totally suck, no? For the mastermind of 9/11 to die of natural causes would be a grand failure, no?
So the is thing that conservatives are so willing to believe actually makes the US look weak and stupid.
And you seem not to realize that.
Bin Laden has to be a liberal, I mean he too has a really bad case of that projection thing.
He is powerless, and the proof is that it will make absolutely no difference if he's dead or alive, and nobody really cares anymore.
Is bin Laden getting all wee weed up again?
WV: acopr
A cop r
"Has Osama called Rham Emanuel to apologize for that hateful outburst?
I don’t think so."
Odd that you should so openy equate Joe's behavior and Osama's.
I would downplay this similarity, if I were you.
Of course, I'm not an idiot republican.
No, it wouldn't "totally suck," phospho. The point of attacking the Taliban and al Qaeda in Afghanistan was to prevent them from attacking us again. They haven't. They've tried, but we've stopped them.
That's one you folks on the left don't get about this war, and why we must think of it in terms of a war rather than in terms of criminal justice.
In the criminal justice model, the goal is to punish and avenge, primarily, and through that to deter. In war, the goal is to just stop the damage being inflicted upon you by the other side. The life or death of any one individual is pretty irrelevant. I could care less whether Osama lives out his squalid, pathetic days, holed up in a cave in the middle of nowhere, so long as he can't communicate substantially with his followers, can't train them, can't lead them into new attacks on the U.S. and other innocent people.
"Conservatives seem to think that OF COURSE he is dead, with very little proof. And they seem to think this because it vindicates everything Bush was up to.'
During the recent presidential campaign we were constantly reminded that the ever inept Bush had not got OBL after seven years and that BO was just the man to bring him in dead or alive.
Why hasn't BO bagged him? (Literally or figuratively)
..And so it is decided by the Althousians that Obama is dead.
And so it shall be.
How long do you expect the Sullivan’s pot bust buzz to last?
Common.
Only a few words wrong with the last post
the words "not" and "republican"
..Odd that you should so openy [openly] equate Joe's behavior and Osama's.
I can’t believe you fell for that obvious trap so easily.
and then you remind us that you are a democrat? I hope you are not speaking for them ;)
But to have OBL die of natural causes would totally suck, no? For the mastermind of 9/11 to die of natural causes would be a grand failure, no?
Nobody thinks he died of natural causes, unless you consider a bomb natural. Either way, it wouldn’t be a grand failure.
"Why hasn't BO bagged him? (Literally or figuratively)"
Because Bush gave him an eight year head start.
Saddam was more important, apparently.
I wold have thought OBL was the priority, but as I have admitted, I'm just a democrat.
It is worth noting that Lawrence Wright says that the idea that bin Laden is/was suffering from kidney disease was pure speculation on the part of reporters who put 2 and 2 together and came up with 5 (i.e., they heard about this symptom that he had and that symptom that he had and naturally, knowing so much about diagnosis from shows like ER, determined that he must have kidney disease).
Because Bush gave him an eight year head start.
Saddam was more important, apparently.
I wold have thought OBL was the priority, but as I have admitted, I'm just a democrat.
Of course, we did go to Afghanistan first, so not really.
..Because Bush gave him an eight year head start.
In the words of Obama..
I do so recognizing that change cannot happen overnight. No single speech can eradicate years of mistrust, nor can I answer in the time that I have all the complex questions that brought us to this point.
He wants to talk'm to death.
In the cave
I feel safe
No one cares about my ways
In the cave
Where I belong
No one hears me sing this song
In the cave
I've got an electric qanun
I play my stupid songs
I write these stupid words
And I love every one
Waiting there for me
Yes I do, I do
In the cave
I feel safe
No one cares about my ways
In the cave
Where I belong
No one hears me sing this song
In the cave
In the cave(yeah)
In the cave
I feel safe
No one cares about my ways
In the cave
Where I belong
No one hears me sing this song
In the cave
I feel safe
No one laughs about my ways
In the cave
Where I belong
No one hears me
No one hears me
No one hears me
No one hears me
No one hears me
sing this song
in the cave
in the cave
Lars, which fevered Obama supporter suggested "that BO was just the man to bring him [Osama] in dead or alive"?
Shanna, yes, we went into Afghanistan first, but the job of going after bin laden was outsourced to folks who have a track record of taking bribes to look the other way.
We gave Afghanistan a lick and a promise, and then turned to the important work of deposing Saddam. . . one of many billions of people who did NOT mastermind and bankroll 9/11.
C'mon Phos, we don't want to have those worn out arguments again. Lets just say your right: Bush was bad, very bad. Now what?
Shanna, yes, we went into Afghanistan first, but the job of going after bin laden was outsourced to folks who have a track record of taking bribes to look the other way.
Which is a question of strategy, not intent. You can debate strategy all you want, but that doesn’t mean we ignored Obama, because we clearly didn’t.
You can debate strategy all you want, but that doesn’t mean we ignored Obama, because we clearly didn’t.
I'd snark, except for the knowledge that I'm just as likely to make this mistake.
Seriously, someone should come up with a spell-check that would alert one to this kind of typo.
Just as it was so upsetting and devastating that we did not capture Hitler alive, it will be equally so when we don't capture bin Laden alive.
I'm still upset about the Hitler thing.
Seriously, someone should come up with a spell-check that would alert one to this kind of typo.
Damn!!! I'm so used to typing Obama. I'm out of the habit of typing Osama. OBL would be a better way to go :)
Catching Osama bin Laden was not, and is not, important. He isn't some James Bond villain without whose brilliant mind the enemy forces would collapse into anarchy. He's just another dumbass radical Muslim who would like to destroy all non-Muslims. There are tens of millions just like him. He's just been a little more successful than most.
Ok, so he thinks Obama is powerless. What of it? Obama isn't powerless, he's just a big pussy who won't use the power he has for sensible ends. The actually powerless person is Osama bin Laden, who has been either dead or in hiding for nearly eight years.
I read the typo over and over and could not see it. It makes sense either way.
We gave Afghanistan a lick and a promise, and then turned to the important work of deposing Saddam. . . one of many billions of people who did NOT mastermind and bankroll 9/11.
The invasion of Afghanistan was about avenging past wrongs. The invasion of Iraq was about preventing future ones.
Revenge feels good, but it isn't as useful as prevention.
"
Ok, so he thinks Obama is powerless. What of it? Obama isn't powerless, he's just a big pussy who won't use the power he has for sensible ends. The actually powerless person is Osama bin Laden, who has been either dead or in hiding for nearly eight years."
Good. Took a while, but here we are: a way to both tout US power ("We're not weak!") and desplay contempt for the commander in chief ("That pussy! Bush would have given him what-for!)
Well done. . . although again, a bit slow on the draw there.
"The invasion of Afghanistan was about avenging past wrongs. The invasion of Iraq was about preventing future ones.
Revenge feels good, but it isn't as useful as prevention."
So catching OBL wouldn't have had any deterrent effect? And letting him escape didn't encourage our enemies? And demonstrating that we are much more comfortable fighting a conventional enemy, a state, and are easily flummoxed by a non-state enemy, has no effect on future attacks?
Ah, to be a conservative in conservative-land, where the sun forever shines. . .
I am generally with those that feel OBL is not now an important target in the war on terror after the Afghan invasion. Being reduced to living in a cave, does not put one on the forefront of the war on terror.
I would argue contra some, that catching him would would not make the remotest difference in what used to be called the war on terror. I suspect OBL's indeterminate status (I suspect but don't know he is dead) is probably the best outcome, because we do not convert him into another martyr.
I would also suggest we have done reasonably well against non-state actors. Others MMV of course, but since all we are doing is making assertions what does it matter.
Lotta new libs here.
Althouse puts out a little bait [like the Tea Party attendance estimate] and the cruddy disease-ridden flies swarm in on her blog like lemmings.
wv - pests [actually made that up]
Phos, not that there's any point, but in fact we HAVE been quite effective in destroying the Taliban in Afghanistan and preventing the country from being used as a base from which to attack us. Rebuilding as a nation, well, that's a tougher matter, one that both the British and the Russians have previously failed at. But it's only since the aftermath of WWII that countries began to feel any obligation at all to rebuild defeated aggressor nations. Our troubles there, like our troubles in Iraq after the capture of Saddam, are entirely due to our efforts to rebuild the country in a positive manner. We could just as effectively have destroyed the ability of the enemy to attack us without undertaking the nation-building operations. But then you'd undoubtedly accuse of being heartless bastards for that.
Took a while, but here we are: a way to both tout US power ("We're not weak!") and desplay contempt for the commander in chief ("That pussy! Bush would have given him what-for!)
I can see why it might seem strange to you that a person might be able to dislike the President and still appreciate America, given that the Left was largely incapable of that during the Bush years. But yes, the fact that we're currently led by an incompetent nitwit obviously doesn't change the fact that we're the most powerful and, for now, free nation on Earth.
So catching OBL wouldn't have had any deterrent effect?
Why would it have had any deterrent effect?
And letting him escape didn't encourage our enemies?
Only if you think cowardice is more inspiring to radical Muslims than martyrdom is.
“The time has come for you to liberate yourselves from fear and the ideological terrorism of neoconservatives and the Israeli lobby,” the voice attributed to Mr. bin Laden said. “The reason for our dispute with you is your support for your ally Israel, occupying our land in Palestine.”
Sounds like the perfect opportunity for President Obama to forcefully and clearly restate our commitment to Israel.
"A new audiotape, reportedly from Osama bin Laden, denounced President Obama on Monday as no different from his predecessor."
If only that were really true.
But I'll take that as one more sign Muslim extremists are losing their 30-year terrorist war of attrition against us and they know it.
"Let us renew our commitment to all those who serve in our defence —- our courageous men and women in uniform and their families and all those who protect us here at home...Mindful that the work of protecting America is never finished, we will do everything in our power to keep America safe."
-President Obama, Sept. 11, 2009
Gee, I hope he knows we're still at war. I mean, since he is the President and all. In case he needs it, here's my personal friendly reminder to him. I say "friendly" because, even though I ended up not voting for him, most people I know did. And increasingly, what I am hearing from my Obama-voting friends is that he is a fuckup - an extreme disappointment, one who continually makes foolish mistakes and doesn't learn. (That's from the Urban Dictionary.)
He and the people he has installed in his administration.
But back to my friendly reminder:
A president's first responsibility during time of war is to end the war. Preferably by winning.
Don't, Mr. President, be a loser.
"Why would it have had any deterrent effect? "
And just to be clear, the "it" referred to is "catching Bin Laden."
I honestly don't know how to answer that question. . . wait. Let's try this:
Why would catching Osama not have a deterrent efect, while catching Saddam would?
Phosphorious...You are making all the right noises to arouse angry Pro-war factions to go back into a useless and disasterous fool's commitment to catching a needle in a haystack in the middle of a nowhere region that is not important at all except for the purpose of holding the world together. It has no purpose and is deserted by modern men, causing it to be a good hiding place, and also a perfect ambush set up for fools in trucks. You and Obama and Reid are all still blowing smoke from the last election campaign. That is mighty crafty of you.
Phospho, OBL and Saddam aren't contingent issues.
Phos asks" "Why would catching Osama not have a deterrent efect, while catching Saddam would?"
The answer to that question inheres in your distinction between state and non-state actors. Specifically in the difference between the "leaders" of state and non-state actors. The deterrence effect of Saddam's capture might make leaders of state sponsors of terrorism a bit more cautious; the same is not true of non-state actors as they are more likely composed of independent cells.
I agree with Roger J. that Bin Laden's powerlessness despite being alive is probably the best outcome. If he was dead they could use it as an excuse for their failure, but since their greatest warrior is alive and still worthless, it is proof of the whole organization's weakness.
And just to be clear, the "it" referred to is "catching Bin Laden."
Right. And just so we're clear, if we had caught Osama bin Laden in 1999 the 9/11 attacks would still have taken place. And you'd be whining that we hadn't caught whatever Arab doofus had popped up to replace bin Laden. There's nothing special about bin Laden. He isn't even especially bloodthirsty, for a Muslim radical.
Let's try this: Why would catching Osama not have a deterrent efect, while catching Saddam would?
Because al Qaeda is a loose affiliation of criminals and terrorists, while Iraq was and is a nation. Replacing a fascist dictator with a democratic regime can change (and has changed) the direction of a country. Offing the leader of a terrorist group is like offing a Mafia don -- there are plenty more ready to replace him, all just as bad. To deal with the threat posed by a loosely organized, geographically distributed enemy like a terrorist group or an organized crime syndicate you need to attack it at all levels. Your naive action-movie image of terrorists as dependent on their charismatic leader doesn't represent the reality.
Come on. It's not about bin Laden. I bet every time an obscure Arab man who lives in a cave whispers threats to America onto an 8-track cassette or VHS tape with grainy footage you all get stiffies.
"I'm still upset about the Hitler thing."
Thinking along these same lines, I recall we did respond to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor by invading North Africa...
That FDR sure was a cowboy unilateralist who took his eye off the ball. No doubt Hirohito thought him powerless. Being semi-divine can cause crazy thoughts like that.
In the cave
I feel safe
No one cares about my ways
In the cave
Where I belong
No one hears me sing this song
In the cave
That was funny, but what a way to besmirch the greatness of Weezer.
And just so we're clear, if we had caught Osama bin Laden in 1999 the 9/11 attacks would still have taken place.
Probably. The 9/11 Commission notes that Khalid Sheikh Muhammad wasn't convinced of the seriousness of Bin Laden and AQ until the Embassy bombings in 1998.
From the report (Homeland Targets):
According to KSM, the 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam marked a watershed in the evolution of the 9/11 plot. KSM claims these bombings convinced him that Bin Ladin was truly committed to attacking the United States. He continued to make himself useful, collecting news articles and helping other al Qaeda members with their outdated computer equipment. Bin Ladin, apparently at Atef's urging, finally decided to give KSM the green light for the 9/11 operation sometime in late 1998 or early 1999.
I just note this since I re-read the report this weekend (or large parts of it).
Didn't Osama attend school somewhere in the US? If so, can't we send SOMEONE out to check on his student loans? I swear - they'll track him down wherever he is.
"Let's try this: Why would catching Osama not have a deterrent efect, while catching Saddam would?"
I can't believe no one mentioned the fact that pulling a terrified, disheveled, and absolutely non-formidable looking Saddam out of his spidey hole resulted in Qaddafi giving up his full, and close to operational, nuclear program.
Which also led to the apprehension of AQ Khan and the dismantling of his nuclear black market operation.
Of course to the left I suppose it's only fair that if we have nuclear weapons that every third world shithole with a lunatic dictator should have them too, so they might not see the aforementioned as a good thing.
Maguro said...
Osama's been digging Cedarford's comments, or maybe reading Walt/Mearsheimer in his cave. Great minds think alike, I guess.
Trite and stupid analogy.
Bin Laden criticizes Israel policies, therefore anyone who criticizes Israel is like bin Laden.
Hitler criticized the Soviet Union, therefore anyone who criticized the Soviet Union was just-like-Hitler.
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Zionists and neocons eagerly sought to exploit 9/11 into persuading the masses here and abroad that because Binnie was a Baddy - any condemnations he made of Israeli policies actually Legitimated them.
Alas, such an argument fell flat outside the USA, and within America only with certain Fundies and military triumpalists hungry for new and bigger wars we could get into - that already were disposed to see Israel as "Their Special Friend".
And of course, in 6 years, the neocons had already thoroughly discredited themselves over Iraq, and the Nation is in no mood to create a catastrophic Global Depression over a major war with Iran simply because the neocons say "Our Special Friend" demands it.
Americans are not happy about Israel being the 3rd largest espionage network in the USA, or about high-ranking politicians being bought by AIPAC to help in intelligence procurement or giving what AIPAC demands in money and arms to Israel.
And 8 years after 9/11, America has learned just how alone it is about our ME policies....and how certain of those Mideast US policies are damaging us - broadly - Not just in Muslim countries, but in Europe and non-Muslim Africa and Asia...and even in Latin America where Israels ongoing land and water grabs are seen as classic colonialism.
Bottom line, Israel is no ally, but an albatross around our necks.
Israel spies on us, subverts us, and uses their allies here to favor Israeli interests over vital US interests.
Bin Laden is largely correct. He and other AQ have lived in relative safety amongst non-AQ Muslims for 8 years since 9/11 in relative safety, despite rewards in the 10s of millions for a single snitcher to make. The basic reason is that everyone talked about bad US policies driven by AIPAC and other special interest groups that steer US foreign policy. And while Muslims have plenty of reservations and anger against AQ, it's methods, and what it does when it is in power..they give him creds for being a guy who launched a small, successful military attack into the US homeland and put egg on America's face.
We call it terrorism, and it was outside the laws of war, but the world notes the US itself has done "decapitation" in some of it's wars as well - targeting the military, financial, and political center of an enemy nation with "legal" airstrikes that aren't realy intended to end capacity - but to "shock and awe".
Since 9/11 we have changed many of the unproductive policies that led to 9/11 and even tried to cast ourselves, when the neocons had power, as the "bringers of freedom and democracy" with litle luck in Iraq and Afghanistan...
But we have not been able to recast our role in the Palestinian conflict because of instransigence on all sides, and the malleability of the Bushies to neocon and Zionist lobbying. Obama's 1st steps to end US acquiescence to new Settler colonies is long overdue.
Meanwhile, bin Laden is largely correct...the Taliban are winning in Afghanistan, Iraq will continue to be a mess with Shia and Sunni in civil war, they can't find AQ top dogs like him, and until the US has a balanced ME policy, they can't have credibility with the Muslim masses.
Didn't Osama attend school somewhere in the US?
Not unless we also have a King Abdulaziz University. But otherwise, good thought.
Revenant said...
And just to be clear, the "it" referred to is "catching Bin Laden."
Right. And just so we're clear, if we had caught Osama bin Laden in 1999 the 9/11 attacks would still have taken place. And you'd be whining that we hadn't caught whatever Arab doofus had popped up to replace bin Laden. There's nothing special about bin Laden. He isn't even especially bloodthirsty, for a Muslim radical.
*****************
Revenent is correct. Had we "caught" the Lefties great Moby Dick in 1999 or the spring of 2001, it would have made absolutely no difference to the 9/11 attack.
Same with clueless right wingers who insist Clinton would have stopped 9/11 if he had "only gotten bin Laden."
WE know Binnie had 3 inputs into the 9/11 attack.
1. After bin Laden had a reluctance to approve 9/11, unlike his deputies -(all 2nd and 3rd rank leaders in the loop thought KSM's idea and leadership of the plot was a great idea) he finally agreed to a green light with some future decision on target lists enemy scouts in the USA were reserching and AQ leaders were discussing. And Binnie disbursed about half the money KSM, Mohammed Atef wanted.
2. He veto'd targeting a 2nd nuke plant instead of the 2nd tower, out of concern of high casualties. He and Atef and the #2, Ayman al-Zawahiri placed great emphasis on hitting the heart of Zionist financial power and honoring the demands of the 1993 Bombers, said in the open in US civilian courts: "Brothers please avenge us and finish the holy task of smashing the pillars of the Jewish financiers."
3. Bin Laden, opposed by many, insisted that KSM do a last minute replacement of SE ASians he had ready to be the "muscle" in the hijacking. Swapping them with Saudis not told they were on a martyr's mission but were to hijack planes, land them, and swap hostages for Palestinian captives in prison in Israel.
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Phosporious - So catching OBL wouldn't have had any deterrent effect? And letting him escape didn't encourage our enemies?
No real deterrent effect. You kill someone who says he wants to die in Holy War, all his followers think is he is their version of a Marine who charges a bridge, kills many enemy, is cut down himself but gets a posthumous medal of honor.
As for "encouraging our enemies", it's an ideological and policy conflict, so one guy escaping or not (bin Laden vs. Zarqawi) has little impact on their thinking.
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PatHMV said...
Phos, not that there's any point, but in fact we HAVE been quite effective in destroying the Taliban in Afghanistan and preventing the country from being used as a base from which to attack us. Rebuilding as a nation, well, that's a tougher matter...
No, sadly, you are about 6 years out of date. The US thought the Taliban was finished and turned almost all it's attention to Occupation of Iraq and brining Freedom!! to the ever-grateful Iraqis...
Meanwhile, the Taliban reconstituted itself and are now winning the struggle in both Northwest Pakistan and in Pashtun lands of Afghanistan. Meanwhile, Bush's little puppet government, the all-corrupt Karzai regime, huddles in their Potemkin Village lair in Kabul.
Nation-building is the last thing on our minds.
"Come on. It's not about bin Laden. I bet every time an obscure Arab man who lives in a cave whispers threats to America onto an 8-track cassette or VHS tape with grainy footage you all get stiffies."
I agree with MUL.
Not just because Obama is dead and rotted to the point of dry bones (no matter that a tape is produced... at least they know not to try for video).
But really, who gets "stiffies" about Bin Laden if it's not those who go on and on and on about how this guy (rotted or even if he's not) but those who think that he continued to *matter* and that Bush should have invaded Pakistan and gone after him even when he was entirely neutralized?
And you know... Obama *does* talk like a powerless person. It's just not seemly to chest beat and stuff even if it does represent a better understanding of the culture we're dealing with. I only hope that Obama doesn't take the bait and try to be "tough" because he won't get it right.
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