Althouse: Imagining the Sarah Palin scenario with the parties flipped.

२७ ऑक्टोबर, २००८

Imagining the Sarah Palin scenario with the parties flipped.

This segment builds a little slowly, and you may think you've heard it all before, but Glenn Loury makes a crushing point at the end.

७० टिप्पण्या:

rcocean म्हणाले...: Glenn is one of the best commentators on BHTV.

Why do they pair him with Josh?; २७/१०/०८, ११:१४ PM
dualdiagnosis म्हणाले...: He's talking about you, Ann.; २७/१०/०८, ११:१८ PM
Joan म्हणाले...: Oo, autodidact! I love it when they throw big words around.

Nothing new here, I guess, except who's saying it?; २७/१०/०८, ११:१९ PM
Eli Blake म्हणाले...: "The Sarah Palin scenario with the parties reversed."

Hmmm... You mean the millworker's son who worked his way up and had a funny accent, and got picked mainly because he had a pretty face and a thin resume?

We already had that. In 2004.; २७/१०/०८, ११:१९ PM
Host with the Most म्हणाले...: '

The "crushing end point":

Loury: It's not unlike what happened to Sarah Palin.

Cohen: And it would be ugly either way

Loury: But it wouldn't have happened the other way. Because it's unacceptable to have that kind of racial stereotype. The McCain camp's effort to appeal to racial sentiment has been rejected as illegitimate by the American (people) . But the snide, sneering down their noses from Upper West Side of Manhattan and Hollywood at the rest of America as a
bunch of hicks has not - I repeat, not - been marginalized as beneath contempt

That's the world we live in everyday:

Hypocrite liberals. Every damn day.

So well explained by the Democrat, former editor of Ms. magazine:

Former editor-in-chief of "Ms." magazine reports on her first-hand exposure to Sarah Palin

It's difficult not to froth when one reads, as I did again and again this week, doubts about Sarah Palin's “intelligence,” coming especially from women such as PBS's Bonnie Erbe, who, as near as I recall, has not herself heretofore been burdened with the Susan Sontag of Journalism moniker. As Fred Barnes—God help me, I'm agreeing with Fred Barnes—suggests in the Weekly Standard, these high toned and authoritative dismissals come from people who have never met or spoken with Sarah Palin. Those who know her, love her or hate her, offer no such criticism. They know what I know, and I learned it from spending just a little time traveling on the cramped campaign plane this week: Sarah Palin is very smart.

Now by “smart,” I don't refer to a person who is wily or calculating or nimble in the way of certain talented athletes who we admire but suspect don't really have serious brains in their skulls. I mean, instead, a mind that is thoughtful, curious, with a discernable pattern of associative thinking and insight. Palin asks questions, and probes linkages and logic that bring to mind a quirky law professor I once had. Palin is more than a “quick study”; I'd heard rumors around the campaign of her photographic memory and, frankly, I watched it in action. She sees. She processes. She questions, and only then, she acts. What is often called her “confidence” is actually a rarity in national politics: I saw a woman who knows exactly who she is.; २७/१०/०८, ११:२३ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Has anyone seen or heard peep from Michelle Obama?

She is so far under wraps by the Obama's team that if Obama wins, it may take until January to get her unwrapped and dressed in time for the ceremony.; २७/१०/०८, ११:४६ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Glenn makes a good point and expresses it well, but the problem is that Palin brought it on herself, by fanning the flames of the culture war and declaring half the country the enemy. I don't know about you, but a lot of us are angry at having our families called traitor and unpatriotic for the last 8 years, and when Palin goes around suggesting we favor Al Qaeda and want America to lose to our enemies, we don't feel a lot of good will towards her. She might try a different strategy next time.

I realize sowing hatred and division are natural pastimes for conservatives, and it worked well from 1994-2004. But a lot of people are just fed up with it. Those are the 100,000 people you see turning out at Obama events. Maybe there aren't enough of us to win the election in November; maybe there are. But we're sick of the insults and the hate mongering, and if Poor Little Sarah finally got some push back as a consequences of spreading hate, I can't say I feel too sorry for her.; २८/१०/०८, १२:३८ AM
Wince म्हणाले...: Damn you Althouse, now you've got me imagining Sarah Palin scenarios with her panties flipped.; २८/१०/०८, १२:४५ AM
The Straight Shooter म्हणाले...: I don't see the 'crushing point.' It could be a few things and I'm trying to figure out what.

It's not Manhattan elites looking down at her, it's most of America. Glenn talks about a woman who worked to get her law degree at night. Palin didn't make any such effort and has no such intellectual credentials.

If she did have a law degree, then that WOULD be evidence of intellectual caliber.

But she doesn't.

If this hypothetical liberal woman was black, the media would avoid it because of white guilt. You simply can't criticize blacks like that in the media. Only something like Wright's god-damn America is transmittable.

As far as Palin being a brainiac, it's too inane an assertion to debate. What evidence is there in any reality that she has more than a middling intellect?

And Loury claims she is accomplished. What? She did the sports!

She has a history of knowing virtually nothing about policy and stabbing her mentors in the back.

I just don't get the comparison Loury is making with Palin.; २८/१०/०८, १२:५१ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Another problem with Palin was that she proved to be just an amazing, compulsive liar. I mean, it's really galling to have someone lie right to your face when you and they both know they are lying. I don't know how the wingnuts and lunatics of the Republican Party put up with that. I guess you figure she's lying with you, not to you. Yeah, sure. That's it. Lies in the service of your agenda.

But be clear on this: We don't fall for that crap. We're not nearly as stupid as you must have to believe to fall for such transparent dishonesty.

It started immediately after her public debut. There are at least a dozen well documented lies, lies that everyone knows are lies, but the she refused to stop telling.

The woman earned no good will, and got not in return.

This is the deal, real simple: Palin was a cultural totem to the far right. She was a symbol of fertility, whiteness, fundamentalism and evangelism, small towns, and hatred of the left.

That was ALL the conservative base needed to know to fall in love with her. You didn't need or want a real human being; you wanted that cultural symbol.

The problem was that the real human being of Sarah Palin was a lot more complicated, and flawed, that your cultural totem. If she could have been a symbol only, you'd have had no problem. But she was a real person, with real flaws, and the conservative movement collectively refused to acknowledge those flaws. The McCain campaign refused to admit to any reality that would tarnish her value as a totem.

And so she collapsed in the polls and today has the dubious distinction of being the most disliked and distrusted VP candidate since the invention of polling.

If the conservative movement knows what's good for it, it will throw her overboard and try to rebuild the movement with honest people who don't sow hatred and division in their homeland.; २८/१०/०८, १२:५७ AM
John Stodder म्हणाले...: ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.; २८/१०/०८, १:०६ AM
John Stodder म्हणाले...: Palin brought it on herself, by fanning the flames of the culture war and declaring half the country the enemy.

You're making Loury's point. Other than not changing her position on abortion, how has she "fanned the flames of the culture war?" With her praise of a small town crowd as "pro-American?" You're buying the hype that this comment was meant to insult other people.

I'm surprised the name Elaine Lafferty doesn't mean anything to you. Read what she wrote. You've been sold a bill of goods on Palin, and you should be disturbed at how easily you've fallen for it.; २८/१०/०८, १:०७ AM
Chip Ahoy म्हणाले...: Glen's hypothesized example is incomplete because his imagined example didn't become governor of a state and buck their own party and rid it of corruption. Just say'n. Although, the point he has made is taken.

Quayle! Ha ha ha ha ha, Oh, my God, you're funny!; २८/१०/०८, २:०३ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Politics has always been a contact sport, but in this election most of the left have become a screaming lynch-mob bent on utterly destroying Sarah Palin and her family.

The treatment of Sarah Palin and her family is not a good thing for our nation and in all probability is an indication of even worse things to come from a rapidly degenerating left.; २८/१०/०८, २:०७ AM
Joan म्हणाले...: Loury claims she is accomplished. What? She did the sports!

Palin is a member of a club more exclusive even than the US Senate: she is one of only 50 governors of the United States. She was elected to that position and is overwhelmingly popular among her constituents. That she was elected after beating out the corrupt older members of her own party just makes it sweeter. She was elected on her own merits, not because she was someone's wife, daughter, sister, or lover.

And you want to say she's not accomplished? How many 43-year-olds do you know that have a family of five children, run a part-time fishing business, have been elected mayor of their town (twice), have run the state's energy/natural resources commission, and ran for, and won the governorship of his or her state on an anti-corruption platform against members of his or her own party?

That's one helluva resume, and we don't even have to talk about running marathons or winning basketball state championships on broken ankles... or her membership in the National Honor Society.

Yeah, Palin's an idiot like the Pope's Jewish. You people who keep saying Palin's a joke have all been played, and you're too much in the tank for Obama to even be willing to admit that might be true.; २८/१०/०८, २:२२ AM
Cedarford म्हणाले...: The Straight Shooter - It's not Manhattan elites looking down at her, it's most of America. Glenn talks about a woman who worked to get her law degree at night. Palin didn't make any such effort and has no such intellectual credentials.

If she did have a law degree, then that WOULD be evidence of intellectual caliber.

But she doesn't.

Pretty snotty, and I dare say if you had ever worked in management in a top firm you would see employees, even your bosses - who lack grad school or even college degrees of "attainment". Especially in engineering, high tech, and business where a BS or a cert is enough to get you on a top-notch career path.

If you have real talent.

A law degree, BTW, is no proof of intellectual caliber. Definitely not a teacher's masters degree.

In Michelle Obama's case, she was a middling student in HS, a sub-par one at Princeton, an even more subpar one at Harvard. Then she failed, one, perhaps 2 Bar exams in CHicago (where the exam is notoriously easy, with a 90% pass rate). Then lasted 3 years as a Lawyer with a Bar license before she gave that up for good 15 years ago. A Harvard Law degree is not an "intellectual credential" - it means you got in on talent or by other means and managed to graduate.

In the case of teachers, a Masters means nothing. They could be smart, they could be as dumb as a sack of rocks and absolutely devoid of any teaching talent.; २८/१०/०८, ६:३९ AM
John Althouse Cohen म्हणाले...: Well, the gender point doesn't really resonate, since men are criticized for excessive spending on their clothes/hair too.

McCain's shoes. Edwards's haircut. Bill Clinton's haircut (back in the '90s).

I think those are all ridiculous, along with Palin's clothes. But it is not about gender.; २८/१०/०८, ६:५२ AM
Simon म्हणाले...: The premise that Palin "speaks funny" is off - a slight regional accent, but nothing troubling or jarring - but Loury is right, of course. After this election's over, no matter how it comes out we're going to have to turn our attentions to dealing with the media - to the culprits who set out to tear Palin down.; २८/१०/०८, ७:१८ AM
KCFleming म्हणाले...: What difference does any of this make?

The MSM has bet everything on their candidate, even to the point of abandoning any pretense toward objective journalism and agreeing to jettison their reputations.

And the Democrats, with their media arm (CNN, NBC, CBS, Bloomberg, NYTimes, WaPo, ABC, NPR, etc) ran a good campaign. And it appears that they won. The reminder are just bread and circuses.

We are left then without an extant media, but merely a functioning arm for the Democratic part; a Ministry of Propaganda.

We are left with an unaccountable President, who was never vetted in any way. About whom supporters have wild variations regarding what he is and what he supports, including this blog.

Feminism, like journalism, has been sacrificed on this altar. The precepts of feminism, it is now revealed, mean nothing at all. They were merely a mask for the Marxist idea of class, nothing more. Their purpose fulfilled, their mendacity exposed, they become just another class mouth to feed by the Mother Party.

Except for music, the baby boomers have screwed up everything they have laid there greedy little hands on.

Fuck Benjamin Spock. The greatest generation spared the rod, and we reaped the goddamned whirlwind, to mix metaphors.; २८/१०/०८, ७:२१ AM
Hoosier Daddy म्हणाले...: I don't know about you, but a lot of us are angry at having our families called traitor and unpatriotic for the last 8 years, and when Palin goes around suggesting we favor Al Qaeda and want America to lose

Oh you mean when Harry Reid said we lost in Iraq? Or when the only thing you could talk about was Abu Ghraib 24/7 as if half a dozen losers were indicative of the whole armed forces? Or how Gitmo is just like Stalin's gulags as Dick appropriately named Durbin said or the Marines at Haditha were murderers as Murtha said even though they have been exonerated?

When the only time you open your mouth was to tear down the military and oppose bringing freedom to 20 million people it takes balls the size of Godzilla to whine about being called unpatriotic.; २८/१०/०८, ७:३० AM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: EDH, I read the same thing. LOL.

Execellent analysis by Glenn Loury. The coasts sneer at so many.

Can I just add that Joshua Cohen's basement -- or wherever he's broadcasting from -- looks ridiculously empty?; २८/१०/०८, ७:३२ AM
TMink म्हणाले...: Verso wrote: "but a lot of us are angry at having our families called traitor and unpatriotic for the last 8 years."

Verso, pray tell, who ever called you and your family a traitor or unpatriotic? Your neighbors?

Now, is your family patriotic? What makes your family patriotic?

Let's discuss it rather than bleed about it hmm?

And then you say something that is simply unfactual. "The woman earned no good will, and got not in return." That is contradicted by the facts. Check the polling numbers, see how the race tightens every time Governor Palin gets any exposure. See the crowds at her speaking engagements.

Your type is unable to disctinguish between your amped up fears and hysteria and reality. Grow a pair. Is that your backbone behind the couch? Put it back in. Drop the victim routine, you will never amount to anything with that.

And try to peddle the obviously false blanket statements somewhere else. People here are informed with the facts.

Trey; २८/१०/०८, ७:३२ AM
Simon म्हणाले...: Eli - oh, come on. After every other slur and insult hurled at Palin, now she's John frickin' Edwards?! Please. You can't compare her record with that's!; २८/१०/०८, ७:३७ AM
Simon म्हणाले...: Pogo said...
"We are left with an unaccountable President, who was never vetted in any way. About whom supporters have wild variations regarding what he is and what he supports, including this blog."

Wild and mutually contradictory variations, one might add. Many of those who have endorsed him have done so while adding a caveat that they don't believe he'll actually do any of the things he's said and can easily br predicted to do (the very reason some others are supporting him!). So that's "change you can believe in" for you.; २८/१०/०८, ७:४० AM
John Althouse Cohen म्हणाले...: Also, what is Loury talking about -- the Republican party would "never stand for" cultural elitism against liberal-elite Democrats? What ridiculous grandstanding.

Uh ... "arugula"? "Real" America? "Latte-drinking, wine-sipping, Prius-driving ..." ad inf.

Cultural elitisim is all over the place, on both sides. I don't like any of it, but Loury (who came into the national spotlight through the Reagan administration and has never been a supporter of Obama) is cherry-picking.; २८/१०/०८, ८:११ AM
Paul म्हणाले...: Hoosier Daddy @ 7:30 AM

Bullseye.; २८/१०/०८, ८:१६ AM
Greg Toombs म्हणाले...: Pogo- 'Except for music, the baby boomers have screwed up everything...'

Well, there's Rap, making their turn to the Dark Side complete.; २८/१०/०८, ८:२२ AM
bleeper म्हणाले...: Wow, you mean if a Democrat had picked a black woman from the ghetto to be a VP candidate he could have locked up the black vote? What?; २८/१०/०८, ८:२५ AM
Hoosier Daddy म्हणाले...: Eli - oh, come on. After every other slur and insult hurled at Palin, now she's John frickin' Edwards?! Please. You can't compare her record with that's!

Damn right Simon. Palin's hair is nowhere near as nice as Edwards but she definitely has better legs.; २८/१०/०८, ८:३५ AM
Hoosier Daddy म्हणाले...: What ridiculous grandstanding.

Uh ... "arugula"? "Real" America? "Latte-drinking, wine-sipping, Prius-driving ..." ad inf.

You miss the point. Unlike the coastal elites, we rubes in flyover Jesus country don't think we're better than them. We just think we're the real thing.; २८/१०/०८, ८:३७ AM
George M. Spencer म्हणाले...: When Prof. Lowry contends that the voters have rejected the attacks on Sen. Obama on racial grounds, I'm not sure what he's talking about.

Compared to Sen. McCain, Sen. Obama has far less overall experience, no military experience, has a far more liberal voting record, far less of a track record working with the other party, had a long-term business relationship with a terrorist in a wildly unsuccessful education venture, and belonged to a church whose minister and mentor espoused views far outside the mainstream.

None of that has anything to do with race.

It's been the converse: Sen. Obama's supporters have attempted to link any criticism of their candidate to racial animus.; २८/१०/०८, ८:४१ AM
peter jackson म्हणाले...: Also, what is Loury talking about -- the Republican party would "never stand for" cultural elitism against liberal-elite Democrats? What ridiculous grandstanding.

Uh ... "arugula"? "Real" America? "Latte-drinking, wine-sipping, Prius-driving ..." ad inf.

I don't that's cultural elitism. Cultural criticism, sure, sarcastic even, but it is not an expression of elitism.; २८/१०/०८, ८:४१ AM
Richard Fagin म्हणाले...: I'm laughing in agreement with the "Ministry of Propaganda" comment, but the Obama cheerleaders at our national press outlets really insult the memory of the likes of Josef Goebbels. The Nazis were honest enough to call the guy what he really was. Not this bunch of press goons. Yes, goons. Their conduct, particularly where Gov. Palin is concerned, is every bit as bad as the longshoremen in "On the Waterfront." They are in fact acting like goons.

So when Obama's arrogance that was noted by one reporter and "hoped would not continue in an Obama White House" does in fact continue, and the press is totally shut out after their role in getting Obama elected is over (Stalin called them useful idiots), I will only think of newly installed Chancellor of Germany Adolf Hitler looking over at the Socialists in the Reichstag and shouting, "And now I have no further need of you!" I hope the goons are ready for that.; २८/१०/०८, ८:४५ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: As some commenters here have shown, however badly one could assess Sarah Palin's intelligence and skills, being a complete ignoramus in actually understanding anything about her and what she has said/done makes your opinion meaningless. Better to shut up then say something so stupid as seen at 12:51 am.; २८/१०/०८, ८:४७ AM
Jon म्हणाले...: Verso said: "And so she collapsed in the polls and today has the dubious distinction of being the most disliked and distrusted VP candidate since the invention of polling."

Complete bullshit. Average the three most recent polls, from Newsweek, CBS, and CNN (the first two of which are probably skewed Democratic, since they show McCain further behind than most polls) and her numbers are still 42% favorable, 44% unfavorable- just about even. In CNN's poll her favorable rating is 52%. Immediately after her VP debate her favorable rating was the same as Biden's. Her numbers have gone down a bit in the past three weeks, because she's being doing her job- being the lead attack dog for the top of the ticket. And of course because she's been subjected to an all-out assault by the media while Biden gets a pass on his plethora of gaffes.; २८/१०/०८, ९:३६ AM
John Althouse Cohen म्हणाले...: 2 different commenters responding to me:

You miss the point. Unlike the coastal elites, we rubes in flyover Jesus country don't think we're better than them. We just think we're the real thing. ...

I don't that's cultural elitism. Cultural criticism, sure, sarcastic even, but it is not an expression of elitism.

Not "better," just more "real" ... not "elitism," just "cultural criticism" ... Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Come on. Saying your people are the "real" Americans is elitist. "Real" is clearly meant in a positive sense. Who would want to be considered a fake American?

The "cultural criticism" that Republicans/conservatives are constantly dishing out may be reverse-elitism, but it's still its own funny brand of elitism. And it seems to be a much more powerful driving force among conservatives than any kind of liberal elitism is among liberals. (Then again, it's entirely possible that the media is making the whole thing up just to have something to talk about.); २८/१०/०८, ९:४३ AM
kjbe म्हणाले...: Make Lowry’s straw candidate, white and with comparable backgrounds, you’ll get the exact same reaction to her as Palin’s getting. He’s not comparing apples to apples. He makes his straw candidate black, then uses race as the reason things would be different from the right. Maybe, but make her white and you’ll have the same scenario.; २८/१०/०८, ९:४७ AM
Tom Royce म्हणाले...: Has anyone seen or heard peep from Michelle Obama?

I heard she is baking cookies until she can put together her health care task force.; २८/१०/०८, ९:५४ AM
Derve Swanson म्हणाले...: Come on. Saying your people are the "real" Americans is elitist. "Real" is clearly meant in a positive sense. Who would want to be considered a fake American?

Maybe, perhaps, you are just misinterpreting, son?

"Real" can mean authentic. We think Sarah Palin is "real" in that she is as she presents. (and no, the recent clothing "scandal" doesn't contradict the basic identity she is, is presenting.

Remember that wink? It was thrown to her father in the audience. Very "real". Not necessarily calculated.

"Real" means you believe what you say, you practice what you preach. Some of us, including some supporters it seems, don't think Obama is "real" in this sense.

He's poll driven. Example: Religion/parish doesn't test well nationally? Drop out for a few months until you find a more compatible one.

"Real" means sure wishing for things you want and don't have, but understanding that you can't get them until you can afford to pay for them over the long run.

In that sense, the Obama crowd is very "unreal", imo. He's a great speechmaker, but in the get-the-job-done sense to many non-coastal-elite Americans, he's an empty suit (sorry, I don't think running political campaigns qualifies as career political accomplishments. After you win, you have to do something "real", right?)

In short, one can clearly make the argument that Sarah Palin is "real" America, getting the job done and not just making promises and being all things to all people. (I'm surprised you missed that pretty common sense interpretation, "Jac"... ;); २८/१०/०८, ९:५५ AM
Joan म्हणाले...: So, pointing out that someone else thinks he's better than you are is elitism? Pointing out that an entire segment of the population sneers at everyone who isn't like them is elitism?

I don't think so, Jac. Republicans get traction on this issue because it resonates with people who are not elitist. There are millions of people in this country who don't have fancy college degrees but who are nonetheless productive members of society. Choosing not to live on either coast doesn't automatically make you an idiot. To a significant portion of the vocal left, flyover country is a cultural and intellectual wasteland. Highlighting that attitude is the politically smart thing to do.; २८/१०/०८, ९:५७ AM
Derve Swanson म्हणाले...: EDH said...
Damn you Althouse, now you've got me imagining Sarah Palin scenarios with her panties flipped.

MadisonMan said...
EDH, I read the same thing. LOL.

John Althouse Cohen said...
I think those are all ridiculous, along with Palin's clothes. But it is not about gender.

Looks like somebody is suffering from a ... failure to empathize.; २८/१०/०८, १०:०६ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Hmmmm.

@ The Straight Shooter

"And Loury claims she is accomplished. What? She did the sports! "

She's Governor of Alaska.

If you can do better then step on up.

Frankly you're not impressing anybody so far.; २८/१०/०८, १०:०६ AM
BarryD म्हणाले...: Come on. Saying your people are the "real" Americans is elitist. "Real" is clearly meant in a positive sense. Who would want to be considered a fake American?

I'm not exactly sure. As someone who is in the middle of a move from an elite coastal city to the "real America", I have to say that that's how my wife and I had talked about it -- and we ARE "coastal elites", whatever that means.

What we were referring to was the friendly attitudes and the ethic of self-reliance combined with neighbors helping neighbors, that we found in Idaho. These things may not be utterly lacking at the beach in San Diego, but they're definitely MIA and have been for a long time.

Travel a little inside the US, try to actually interact with the locals instead of sneering at them as they pour your coffee, and you might really understand what I mean. It would be rather odd for someone who was born and raised in Southern California within a mile from the coast, and has never lived anywhere but an expensive coastal town in my 42 years, to be "elitist" about someone ELSE being "real Americans."

And yes, there are "fake Americans." It's not that they're not citizens, or Americans. It's that they spend a LOT of energy on being fake, so much that they don't have time to keep a door from slamming on a mother with a baby in a stroller and a 2-year-old walking next to her. In fact, to prove their uber-coolness, they might even sneer at her.

Never seen it? Hang out in a coastal city, and you will. In some places, it's become so blatant that I see it, even though I'm steeped in the culture.

What does this have to do with politics? Not much, except tangentially perhaps, since some people with different attitudes may end up voting differently. But what does it have to do with elitism? Not much, either.; २८/१०/०८, १०:०६ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Hmmmm.

@ John Althouse Cohen

1. "Not "better," just more "real" ... not "elitism," just "cultural criticism" ... Six of one, half a dozen of the other. "

Nonsense. I've lived in rural areas and urban ones. Are you suggesting that there isn't an immense amount of elitism amongst coastal elites?

Shall I quote Sen. John Kerry in 2004? "Where can I get me a huntin' license?". Or shall we review the myriad times Kerry tried connecting with flyover voters via baseball or football? Every instance of which was painful to watch? Or that ridiculous bird "huntin'" episode?

When coastal liberal elites deign to visit rural America the correlation with "My Cousin Vinny" is pretty close.

2. "Come on. Saying your people are the "real" Americans is elitist. "Real" is clearly meant in a positive sense. Who would want to be considered a fake American?"

And how many liberals view America as "good but ..."? There is -always- that "but ..." either explicit or implied.

Funny enough quite a few people can recognize that America has flaws but it takes a liberal to include that "but ...".

3. "The "cultural criticism" that Republicans/conservatives are constantly dishing out may be reverse-elitism, but it's still its own funny brand of elitism."

That's a ridiculous argument and one that shows a lack of understanding of the dynamics between liberals and conservatives.

A conservative can always think like a liberal -because- we're not elitist.

A liberal cannot think like a conservative -because- they are elitist and thus have no grounding for the conservative mind.

It is because of this that liberals generally think conservatives are evil and conservatives think liberals are crazy.

And only -one- of us is right. You can guess who.

4. "And it seems to be a much more powerful driving force among conservatives than any kind of liberal elitism is among liberals."

Complete rubbish.; २८/१०/०८, १०:२२ AM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: Looks like somebody is suffering from a ... failure to empathize.

I'm only auffering from a failure to admit that I need bifocals.; २८/१०/०८, १०:३० AM
nick म्हणाले...: michelle is on the road every day!

where the fuck were you!

morons; २८/१०/०८, १०:३१ AM
George M. Spencer म्हणाले...: Newsweek's cover story on Palin summed it up:

The headline:

She's One of the Folks
(And that's the problem)

Folk are "the common people of a society or region considered as the representatives of a traditional way of life and especially as the originators or carriers of the customs, beliefs, and arts that make up a distinctive culture." Folk is authentic. Folk is real. Folk got dirt under they fingernails.

Clinton, Carter, Johnson, and Truman were folk. Roosevelt, Kennedy, and Bush were rich folk, but still folk. Gore and Kerry, not so much so.

Sen. Obama is many things. But he's not folk. He defies definition: The African-American Hawaiian white guy from Harvard/NY/Chicago, raised in Indonesia and by his grandparents and atheist mother and two fathers from Asia and Africa and mentored by a Communist, an unrepentant terrorist, and raging minister.

The night before he was elected President, Reagan was asked what he thought Americans saw in him. His reply? "Would you laugh if I told you that I think, maybe, they see themselves and that I'm one of them? I've never been able to detach myself or think that I, somehow, am apart from them."

If anything, Obama is fey and apart. Not much of a sense of humor, either.; २८/१०/०८, १०:३२ AM
Henry म्हणाले...: Joan makes the case for Palin on her merits.

I offer a parallel -- Grover Cleveland.

Grover Cleveland was Mayor of Buffalo for two years before his reputation for independence and integrity pushed him to the governorship of New York State. Two years later he was president.

In his baroque masterpiece Masks in a Pageant William Allan White writes of Cleveland:

"The people were tired of statesmen eternally saving the country with their vote-getting plans of salvation. What the people desired just then with a furious passion was a vigorous uncompromising man without any plans, who would save the State from its statesmen."

The problem now is that the people seem to have a vigorous passion for the man with a vote-getting plan of salvation.

That won't last.; २८/१०/०८, १०:३४ AM
mccullough म्हणाले...: Both Palin and the condescending liberal and conservative elites should tone it down.

The nice thing about the military draft was that (until Viet Nam), rich and poor and in between all served together. No one was better than anyone else.

JFK and George HW Bush were rich kids who were genuine war heroes.

I don't think Obama thinks he's better than anyone else and neither does McCain.

McCain would make a better POTUS than Obama because he's sacrificed more and exhibited far more political courage. They're both smart guys but McCain is more open-minded and more decisive.

Right now, Palin doesn't strike me as very open-minded, even though she seems pretty smart. She seems more ideological than Obama. But she's displayed more polticial courage than Obama, who has never shown any. Obama's much-vaunted temperament seems indistinguishable to me from a guy who just as a go-along, get-along attituted. Great in a Senator but not in a President.; २८/१०/०८, १०:५५ AM
Dan म्हणाले...: "Glenn makes a good point and expresses it well, but the problem is that Palin brought it on herself, by fanning the flames of the culture war and declaring half the country the enemy. I don't know about you, but a lot of us are angry at having our families called traitor and unpatriotic for the last 8 years, and when Palin goes around suggesting we favor Al Qaeda and want America to lose to our enemies, we don't feel a lot of good will towards her. She might try a different strategy next time.

I realize sowing hatred and division are natural pastimes for conservatives"

Look at what you just wrote. I mean, this is a perfect example of why it's impossible to "debate" a lot of people. You set it up where it's unfair that the bad, mean old conservatives call you names and unjustly accuse you of things in blanket statements or whatnot, and then in the very next sentence you smack conservatives in exactly the same way you're complaining about.

How are you supposed to debate someone who nullifies their own point before you get a chance to?

OT: I got a call from team Obama last night for the first time in the campaign. It was fun. I listened through their whole shpiel, at the end of which they asked "so, can we count on your support on election day?"

"No."

"Why would that be?"

"Because with one exception, which is NOT Obama, I'm planning to vote a straight Republican ticket."

"Okaythankyouforyourtimegoodbye."

Hey, at least they didn't threaten to come over and break my legs.; २८/१०/०८, ११:०८ AM
nick म्हणाले...: dad is a gdmf liar

only call are made to people who SAY they are undecided.; २८/१०/०८, ११:१२ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Don't call my dad a liar.

Grover Cleveland? Wasn't he a pitcher from the turn of the century?; २८/१०/०८, ११:२९ AM
Henry म्हणाले...: What the people desired just then with a furious passion was a vigorous uncompromising man with a great right arm.

That would be Grover Cleveland Alexander.; २८/१०/०८, ११:४१ AM
mccullough म्हणाले...: Grover Cleveland was President No. 22 and No. 24.

So the next President will be No. 44 but will only be the 43rd man to be President.; २८/१०/०८, ११:४३ AM
JorgXMcKie म्हणाले...: nick, are you insane, just off your meds, or paid by the comment?

The reference to Michelle Obama was that, despite being "on the road all the time" (or whatever), she is getting ZERO media coverage of whatever it is she's saying and doing.

And calling someone a nasty name and a liar just exposes you as fundamentally worthless and with no argument.; २८/१०/०८, ११:५५ AM
halojones-fan म्हणाले...: It's been obvious for a long time that "redneck" is the modern "blackface".; २८/१०/०८, १२:४३ PM
Bob म्हणाले...: I find the suggestion that the nice thing about the draft was how rich and poor served alike. In WWII basically every male was drafted. By Viet Nam, only a very small were. Most got college deferments, etc. One of the principle reasons for ending the draft was how unfair it was perceived to be. FWIW, today's volunteer military has both blacks and lower income brackets LESS represented overall and significantly less represented in the actual Combat specialties.; २८/१०/०८, १:२५ PM
jaycaruso म्हणाले...: "We're not nearly as stupid as you must have to believe..."

Sure you are.; २८/१०/०८, २:३२ PM
Lindsey म्हणाले...: "Uh ... "arugula"? "Real" America? "Latte-drinking, wine-sipping, Prius-driving ..." ad inf."

I currently live in the buckle of the Bible Belt, and we have all of those things here. And they clearly sell quite well. The issue isn't eating arugula or drinking lattes. The issue is thinking you are better than other people for doing so.; २८/१०/०८, ५:३१ PM
Jamie म्हणाले...: verso - You say:

"This is the deal, real simple: Palin was a cultural totem to the far right. She was a symbol of fertility, whiteness, fundamentalism and evangelism, small towns, and hatred of the left."

Palin is indeed, on one level, a cultural totem to the far right: a symbol of (a) believing that babies have intrinsic value regardless of how many you have or what might be different about them, (b) not believing that ethnicity is a salient piece of a person's political identity, (c) the right to be personally socially conservative, though your public role dictates that you uphold social constructs that you yourself may not embrace, (d) small towns versus ginormous metropoli where the concept of "neighbor" seems to be more a concept than a fact of life, and (e) disbelief that the failed policies of the left can still attract adherents.

But hey, you say tomaytoe, I say tomahtoe.; २८/१०/०८, ६:१३ PM
a psychiatrist who learned from veterans म्हणाले...: This debate is well and good, but I think there is a related issue that is really more important and only remarked on by inference of the debate. Let me stipulate that Sarah Palin was picked because the demographic of unmarried women appeared to be damagingly for Obama over McCain. It was hoped that, similarly to picking a black would appeal to blacks (and liberals), that picking a 'working woman' would appeal to the unmarried women. That hasn't happened. Why? I think the implication of the debate we are having has as a subtext that, and may be in part proof of, 'unmarried women' don't make up their own minds from their own impression but rather are distinctly led by opinion leaders as to what they will prefer.; २८/१०/०८, ६:५८ PM
Ronnie Schreiber म्हणाले...: And the Lord opened up the mouth of the ass and it brayed:

But we're sick of the insults and the hate mongering,

Verso, project much?

sowing hatred and division are natural pastimes for conservatives

Another problem with Palin was that she proved to be just an amazing, compulsive liar.

wingnuts and lunatics of the Republican Party

sow hatred and division in their homeland.; २८/१०/०८, ८:४२ PM
Ronnie Schreiber म्हणाले...: If she did have a law degree, then that WOULD be evidence of intellectual caliber.

If so, how come so many with law degrees fail to pass the bar exam?

All that a law degree means is that you have good organizational skills and get the work done on time. I know some pretty smart lawyers who went to top 10 law schools, but most of them are useless when it comes to technical or scientific matters (except for patent attorneys, many of whom have bachelors' degrees in the hard sciences).; २८/१०/०८, ८:४७ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: Richard Fagin said...
"The Nazis were honest enough to call the guy what he really was. Not this bunch of press goons..."

So when Obama's arrogance that was noted by one reporter and "hoped would not continue in an Obama White House" does in fact continue, and the press is totally shut out after their role in getting Obama elected is over (Stalin called them useful idiots), I will only think of newly installed Chancellor of Germany Adolf Hitler looking over at the Socialists in the Reichstag and shouting, "And now I have no further need of you!" I hope the goons are ready for that."

Obama is Hitler? You lose.; २८/१०/०८, ९:१८ PM
Erik म्हणाले...: Who is the Dan Quayle of 2008?
Is it Sarah Palin? Or is it...

Erik Explains Sarah Palin to His Cat
http://no-pasaran.blogspot.com/2008/10/erik-explains-sarah-palin-to-his-cat.html

Victor Davis Hanson makes the same point here:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDk0MTlkNDVlYmIyNTlmNTQwZDAxNzk4MTZmOWQwY2M=; २८/१०/०८, ११:५५ PM
nick म्हणाले...: he said she was UNDER wraps
not that there was 0 media coverage

MORONS
watch TV DUh! not foxnews; २९/१०/०८, १२:०२ AM
nick म्हणाले...: ok,. "DAN"; २९/१०/०८, १२:०८ AM
Floridan म्हणाले...: John Stoddard: "With her praise of a small town crowd as "pro-American?" You're buying the hype that this comment was meant to insult other people."

Here's her statement: "We believe that the best of America is in these small towns that we get to visit, and in these wonderful little pockets of what I call the real America, being here with all of you hard working very patriotic, um, very, um, pro-America areas of this great nation. This is where we find the kindness and the goodness and the courage of everyday Americans. Those who are running our factories and teaching our kids and growing our food and are fighting our wars for us. Those who are protecting us in uniform. Those who are protecting the virtues of freedom."

I think you could reasonably infer that this was not intended to slight those who live in urban areas. Rather, it was just pandering to the residents of small towns.; २९/१०/०८, ९:१८ AM
nick म्हणाले...: pandering is saying some truth they want to hear

she LIED

and thus insulted; २९/१०/०८, ९:५८ AM
Tim Blurg म्हणाले...: Those among the ranks of the Republicans who bemoan the MSM being in the tank for Obama, and hence THAT'S why McCain is going to get steamrolled on Tuesday, make the same mistake Democrats did with Willie Horton and Swiftboating. Blame a convenient excuse and not really examine the reasons for the (impending) defeat.

But if it makes you feel better about yourself to blame others for your loss, so be it. It's also going to take you that much longer to reclaim a position of relevance.; ३०/१०/०८, ९:३० AM