7:58: In the comments, we're setting the terms for the drinking game: I said:
Take a sip if McCain says "my friends" or if Obama says "uh."Palladian said:
Dear God, woman, are you trying to kill people? Alcohol is poisonous in large quantities!8:03: May the best man win. Jim Lehrer sounds stern! First question: take a position on the finance crisis.
8:04: Obama: "Move swiftly... and wisely... have oversight...." Don't pad the bank accounts of the rich. The whole problem is the fault of the other party. McCain: He begins with "thoughts and prayers" for "the lion of the Senate," Ted Kennedy, who's in the hospital now. He emphasizes that Republicans and Democrats are working together in dealing with the crisis.
8:08: Lehrer pushes them to take a position on the plan. Obama says he hasn't seen it. Ooh, I just saw Jon Stewart savage McCain last night for saying he hadn't read it. Obama's not taking a position. Come on! Take a position! He doesn't. McCain says "sure," he'll vote for it but immediately veers into an anecdote about Eisenhower and railing against greed. "Greed is rewarded." Both candidates look fresh and sharply outlined on the HDTV.
8:13: Lehrer wants them to talk to each other, but they don't much seem to want to. Next question: Are there fundamental differences between what McCain and Obama would do about the economy? McCain says we need to get spending under control... "earmarking as a gateway drug." Obama's a big spender. Obama said earmarks are abused, but earmarks are only $18 billion of the budget and McCain wants $300 billion in tax cuts. So the difference (in what they promise) is clear: McCain would cut spending and Obama would collect more taxes. McCain says those earmarks corrupt people, and Obama is proposing $800 million in new spending. Obama looks annoyed. He doesn't know where that number comes from. McCain looks a little pleased, I think, because he knows he's gotten to Obama.
8:20: McCain says pork-barrel spending is "rife," it's appalling. We see Obama raising a finger. He wants to be called on. Lots of arguing back and forth about who supported what.
8:26: Lehrer asks what sacrifices will be required. Obama mainly talks about things he wants to spend on. McCain says we've let government get out of control. He'd cut ethanol subsidies. (Good!) He'd eliminate cost-plus contracts. He speaks of saving $6 billion on one deal. Lehrer presses them, and Obama starts talking about spending again. (By the way, he is not saying "uh.") Lehrer gets excited about doing something different to deal with the current crises. McCain mentions a spending freeze. Obama objects and mentions another thing he'd like to spend on (early childhood education). Lehrer reasks the question: What difference will the crisis make? Obama talks about values. McCain talks about spending cuts. Obama questions McCain's record. McCain says, for a second time, that he wasn't elected Miss Congeniality in the Senate. (Should have put that in the drinking game.)
8:39: What have they learned from Iraq? McCain says we've learned how to fight the right way and to avoid defeat. Obama thinks we've learned we shouldn't have started the war in the first place.
Whoops. I've been calling Lehrer MacNeil... corrected.
8:44: McCain excoriates Obama for failing to support victory and for not acknowledging victory. Obama says the difference in opinion was only about whether there was a timetable or not. There's a hot dispute here. McCain gesticulates and smiles. Obama looks a little pissed off and interrupts a few times with the muttered phrase "That's not true."
8:51: Obama calls Pakistan "Pah-ki-stahn." Repeatedly.
8:52: McCain is not prepared to threaten Pakistan. You don't aim a gun if you aren't prepared to pull the trigger.
8:54: Obama denies that he talked about attacking Pahkistahn. He's just ready to "take out" al Qaeda if we know they are in there. He teases McCain about singing "bomb bomb Iran."
9:00: McCain stresses his empathy for soldiers. He's got a bracelet. Obama's got a bracelet too. He cares too. Jac writes (he's live-blogging too):
"I've got a bracelet." "I've got a bracelet too!" Are these serious adults running for president, or is this summer camp?9:04: McCain gets fired up talking about Obama's willingness to talk without precondition with Ahmadinejad. Ahmadinejad is talking about exterminating Israel, he exclaims. McCain stumbles over the name Ahmadinejad a bit, and I'm not sure if he's expressing genuine hatred for the man or is just getting fired up about a strong line of attack against Obama. Obama doesn't seem that irritated. He laughs a little. When he gets his turn, Obama needles him about, among other things, Spain. McCain inserts what must be a prepared barb: "I don't even have a seal yet."
9:15: We get a "my friend" out of McCain as he says Obama is "parsing words" about "preconditions, and he emphasizes how long he's been friends with Henry Kissinger. (Obama had cited Kissinger for the proposition that we ought to speak to everyone.)
9:18: The subject is Russia. McCain accuses Obama of naivete. He says: "I looked into Putin's eyes and I saw three letters, a K, a G, and a B." McCain is reeling off names of people and places in Georgia and Ukraine. He's got a strategy of displaying experience and making Obama seem green. Obama's given a chance and he mainly says he agrees.
9:25: Much crossfire over nuclear waste.
9:26: The last question is about terrorism. The main distinction here is that Obama views Iraq as a distraction and McCain thinks it's central.
9:31: Both men have been sharp and clear, and I haven't noticed mistakes. As expected, McCain is more passionate, but he never crossed the line into irascibility. Obama is cooler, but he never fell into that professorial mode that he uses sometimes. He certainly didn't stumble and babble incoherently, which is what his opponents say he does.
9:48: They didn't much go for that idea of talking directly to each other, did they? I mean, other than Obama's frequent assertion that McCain was getting something wrong.
9:54: In the end, I'd say, McCain made more good points and got in more punches, but Obama stood his ground and maintained his stature on stage next to McCain, even as McCain repeatedly tried to portray him as a lightweight. I should add that McCain never seemed too old, short, or lacking in vigor, even on HDTV. Obama looked fine too, and I never saw that upturned face, with the eyes gazing downward, that made him seem supercilious in those old debates with Hillary Clinton.
पोस्ट्स
८३३ टिप्पण्या:
«सर्वात जुने ‹थोडे जुने 833 पैकी 601 – 800 नवीन› नवीनतम»Amen, John Stodder.
Here's some data:
Number of times McCain said "my friends" --- 1
Number of times Obama said "uh..um..ah.." -- 7
Number of times Obama blamed "Bush / McCain" --9
Number of times Obama made faces while McCain was speaking -- 19
Overall, McCain by a Jimmy Durante sized nose, base on his greater depth of knowledge of the military and foreign affairs.
Damn--and just think how bad this could have been for bambi if mccain had time to prepare!
Obama was against the ropes all night.
Did we reach the limit in comments??
Dude, you totally win the rhythm stick.
I've never recovered.
It seemed interesting, that McCain, in the first part of the debate, he was not willing to go on the attack. Specifically, I meant during the section on the economic bailout.
I don't know why this was so; I'd like to think it's because he's trying to be bi-partisan while we're in the midst of the bailout negotiation, but perhaps that's too idealistic.
Exactly right about Lehrer, John.
I can't find john's comment on lehrer? What was it?
On Real Clear Politics, Obama is currently up 4.2 points over McCain. As soon as the polling on tonight's debate comes in Obama will will have a ten point lead which will hold right through the election. Biden/Plain debate won't change anything. The bailout will hurt McCain. As I said earlier, the election is over.
"John is Right" 8 times. My sleeping spouse was right.
"I think Jim Lehrer should win a Pulitzer, or an Emmy, or something, for doing the finest hosting job for a debate, ever. He's a great American and made journalism look good in a period when it's been looking very, very bad."
~John Stodder
"I agree with John McCain" 8 times by Obama.
"Senator Obama doesn't understand" 7 times by McCain.
Ouch.
Lehrer did not disappoint. He did a really good job.
duscany: you do realize, of course, that it is the electoral college that determines the President--but please, continue to cite national polling. Its VERY convincing.
Duscany, I still don't believe you are neutral. You sound like David Axelrod right now.
roger j., they can't bring themselves to face reality.
Did we reach the limit in comments??
Ernie, after 200 comments are posted on any one thread, you have to click on Post A Comment to get the latest ones. It's a blogger quirk.
THank you Paddy - I agree with Stodder. Lehrer did the best moderation I've ever seen.
I thought McCain did poorly. He was never a good speaker or debater. Flubbed his scripted one-liners, lots of senate speak, mindlessly rattling off places he visited. Invoking Henry Kissinger (lets all bow our heads) who is popular with who?
Ugh, and talking about how Corporate taxes are too high! Maybe the 700 billion bailout will make the corporate fat cats feel better. Babbling about $18 billion in earmarks when the defense budget is 500 billion and the total budget is 2,000 billion.
And why the constant laughing and creepy smiles while Obama talked? That will lose him votes. And the KGB talk about Putin was scary.
He'd better hope for the "Bradley effect" or he's toast.
Sorry for dropping out. I had to cook for my starving child.
I don't know why this was so; I'd like to think it's because he's trying to be bi-partisan while we're in the midst of the bailout negotiation, but perhaps that's too idealistic.
Salamandyr, I have the same nauseating feeling.
This is where McCain's mavericky-ness loses me. He's more intent on seeming bipartisan than taking a definitive stand.
Roger J. said...
"duscany: you do realize, of course, that it is the electoral college that determines the President--but please, continue to cite national polling. Its VERY convincing."
Obama leads by that metric, too.
Rocean, sorry to hear it! But you stated your points well.
Peter, what a nice daddy. :)
Youtube already has the John Is Right Video up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec3aC8ZJZTc
The Kos kids are tightening up their blinders. It's pretty sad.
Youtube already has the John Is Right Video up
LOL! From the OFFICIAL John McCain Youtube.
Check out the exit question too!
That was enjoyable. The old man took the kid to school. BTW, rcocean, corporate taxes are way too high. Check this out.
Gee, it sounds like bad news for Barry. Even Chris Mathews thinks McCain won. "Obama's big hope is that viewers will think McCain was too mean". Yeah, we always vote for the loser we feel sorry for.
It was a clear draw, with each scoring a D-.
Both tried to pack too many buzzwords into every sentence. Both dodged the questions. Neither impressed.
Well, I'm cruel neutralist like Ann, and I think McCain won. I don't think his victory was of such magnitude that Obama's existing supporters will be shaken. He did fine for the most part. But McCain won on passion, maturity and depth of knowledge, qualities that independents and cruel neutralists respond well to.
Obama's best moment: His attack on McCain's health care plan.
McCain's best moment(s): His overall attack on Obama's readiness.
Lots of comments . . .
McCain did well. Obama did okay.
The game continues.
Obama agrees with Mccain 7-9 times depending on how close you listened? Why is he running again? Oh, yeah, history has to be made.
"Harvard beats Yale, 29-29", says Krauthammer.
LOL.
The post-debate commenters on PBS also noted the fact that McCain had less time to prepare than The Messiah (PBUH). Will our lefty trolls remember that?
Obama agrees with Mccain 7-9 times depending on how close you listened? Why is he running again? Oh, yeah, history has to be made.
This is his attempt at bipartisanship.
He doesn't have a record of any such thing in his career (yes, Eli, I know, the Ethics bill in the Illinois Senate, hoo boy...), so he's going after a conciliatory tone with John McCain close-up.
Simon--as you are no doubt aware I follow those closely--and he does, except the trend lines are looking a bit scary for him.
Ernesto y Victoria--un noche bueno por media noches, verdad? Y cafe cubano con ron
This "Obama wasn't as good, but he held his own, so he won" meme is ridiculous.
roger j, una muy buena noche! I drank all the rum!!
Buenas noches mi amigo y amiga
y viva cuba libre
To answer a question that was asked a hundred comments ago: "Walk the walk" was first used by McCain, early in the debate. Obama used it later, but not twice.
At least that's the best that I can recall. I listened to the last half hour or so on the radio.
I think Obama made a mistake by not acknowledging that the surge has succeeded thus far. He could have done that during any slow news day in the past 3 months, and that would have dulled one of McCain's better points.
"8:51: Obama calls Pakistan "Pah-ki-stahn." repeatedly."
That's because he's so "ejacted"!
Oh, crap, I don't care. I know who I'm voting for, and nothing said tonight made the least difference in that.
ernesto: lo mismo
Where was McCain's lapel pin?
Unpatriotic?
roger, viva Cuba libre!
Y gracias!
Obama was mugged tonight for the very first time in his life ;)
de nada mi amigo
I don't buy the idea that McCain came into this unprepared or underprepared, or that he would have performed better if he had spent the past week rehearsing.
McCain did what he does well, and he did it well tonight.
I'm checking the other blogs, so I will possibly call it a night.
600 posts, on the dot, went by like nothing in 1 hour and change. Nicely done, my fellow Althousians!
Thanks to the hostess for her live-blogging. Night!
I wanted to make (probably reiterate) a point: McCain had moving and obviosuly sincere words for Ted Kennedy. Obama did not say mention him. It will not go unnoticed.
I think it wasn't as clear a McCain win as with the Rick Warren forum.
But, I think McCain got in a lot more specifics and seemed stronger. He got in some good hits, Obama got flustered but recovered soon enough, mostly because McCain went a little too long. Had he kept up the punches, and made shorter, more direct responses, I think Obama would have stumbled hard.
Obama played up his strengths. He turned the conversations back to his main points and showed that he's had a fair amount of experience on the campaign trail.
McCain didn't get a knock-out. I'd say he won by split decision.
Buenas noches, Victoria!
Thanks all!
Besos, Ernie! Ciao Roger, Peter, guys! ;)
Sweet mother of all things. Frank Luntz is on Fox just now interviewing 'undecided' voters. Most say they now favor Obama because he 'cares about people'.
The smart people always lose these kind of things.
Oh good, Joe Biden is speaking on Fox. He still thinks Obama is articulate, I'd bet.
Joe Biden has been found. He is in Wisconsin. The economy is going into the toilet and a senior, power house senator running for the VPOTUS is in Wisconsin. He is talking to Chris Wallace now.
Why is he in Wisconsin and not DC? Why doesn't Wallace ask him that? I guess he will not vote on the bail out plan. He has a brewery to tour or something.
"Surge" started to scare me at the beginning, with his non-sequitur responses. He reminded me of how my grandfather acted after the strokes. But later he came back into focus.
No knockdowns or knockouts.
I'd give it to McCain on points, but he would had to score a clear knockout before most the DNC/MSM will score it for him.
Goodnight, guys! It's been real!!
why is he in Wisconsin?
They want him where he can do the least amount of damage.
I think we can all agree that America doesn't want to listen to economics (we were all bored for the first 30 min) we really wanna hear what countries our next president is gonna kick the ass of.
Wait, I had to come back to preempt the future talking points against McCain by our trolls:
- McCain wasn't wearing an US flagpin! Obama was!
- McCain claims Pah-kees-tan was a failed state!
Madeleine Albright blogged her comments already! Was the woman logging in from the audience?
Tonight was a breakthrough for Senator Obama, who showed himself truly ready to be president. He responded knowledgeably, thoughtfully and confidently to the toughest questions on the economy, Iraq, and terror. Meanwhile, Senator McCain spent so much time attacking his opponent, he neglected to show how a McCain-Palin administration would differ from Bush-Cheney. As a result, Obama answered the threshold question about his candidacy; McCain did not.
Bob Shrum writes:
Barack Obama was crisp, reassuring and strong -- in short, presidential, as he has been throughout the financial storm of the past two weeks. McCain was not as bad as he has been recently; but much of this debate was fought on what was supposed to be his high ground. As the encounter ended, Obama not only controlled the commanding heights of the economic issue -- and he not only held his own on national security -- but clearly passed the threshold as a credible commander-in-chief. McCain kept repeating that Obama doesn't "understand." But he clearly did. McCain made up no ground. That's similar to what happened in 1960 when Nixon ran on the slogan "Experience Counts" but found it didn't count that much when voters decided JFK was up to the job after the side by side comparison they saw in the first debate.
So armed with this knowledge, attack attack attack trolls!
McCain won, but not by a knockout. I think this debate will help him, but it's not enough to ensure victory.
Barring any huge blunders, the election still tilts towards Obama.
There were no issues tonight where McCain had to navigate between his base and the independents he needs to court.
Big props to Lehrer.
While those who listened to the debate and those who watched it probably didn't sense a difference, I suspect that the debate might take on a different feel for people who only see a few soundbites.
655 comments already? Jesus.
Neither of these two clowns impressed me much, but I thought Obama was the clear victor on the financial crisis (though McCain scored substantial points over taxes and earmarks), and I was painfully torn between the two on foreign policy issues. McCain was making good points about the surge and Obama's "no preconditions" jive, but I like Obama's focus on Afghanistan and Pakistan. I agree with Obama that we didn't keep our eye on the ball.
I have always been torn between these two jokers. What put me in the Obama camp was the insanely unqualified choice for running mate McCain chose -- Sarah Palin. I'm sad and angry that he made such a reckless choice. It is going to be ugly when she attempts to debate the issues on live television, now that she's shown in multiple interviews that she doesn't actually know a goddamn thing.
I dunno, I guess I'm somewhere in between McCain and Obama, but Obama seems the better choice. I just wish he wouldn't have his party in control of the House and Senate if and when he's sworn in.
Albright and Shrum are whistling past the graveyard. And in Shrum's case, it's comical - how many Presidential electials does Bob Shrum have to lose before he realizes that his political instinct is wrong about everything, all the time? The smartest thing Obama has done all year was to not hire Shrum.
Kissinger says McCain got it right
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=Zjc0NzExZjViNWViNDRlN2NmNDJiZDEzNDExZTliMzY=
Lehrer showed that objective journalism is not an oxymoron. He did a fine job....A few years from now we will understand what it all means and who won and why. In the meantime, I'm still supporting McCain. but I see no reason to dislike Obama on the basis of this debate.
TWS Exclusive: Kissinger Unhappy About Obama
Henry Kissinger believes Barack Obama misstated his views on diplomacy with US adversaries and is not happy about being mischaracterized. He says: "Senator McCain is right. I would not recommend the next President of the United States engage in talks with Iran at the Presidential level. My views on this issue are entirely compatible with the views of my friend Senator John McCain. We do not agree on everything, but we do agree that any negotiations with Iran must be geared to reality."
Barack Obama (holding up arm): "I, too have a bracelet. It was given to me by the mother of Pvt. Rolex.
G'night.
Where was McCain's lapel pin?
Unpatriotic?
Yeah, Michael! Work that angle!
LoafingOaf said...
"I have always been torn between these two jokers. What put me in the Obama camp was the insanely unqualified choice for running mate McCain chose -- Sarah Palin. I'm sad and angry that he made such a reckless choice."
Sooner or later you're going to get around to explaining in some credible fashion why McCain's selection of Palin is so "reckless" compared to the Democrats' even more "insanely unqualified choice" of Presidential nominee. I know that you have to subordinate rational thought to your assigned daily talking points when you join the Democratic Party, Loafing Oaf, but I didn't think you had to surrender all capacity for rational thought - a precondition for continuing to push this absurd and incoherent meme about Palin's "inexperience."
McCain scored substantial points over taxes and earmarks
A year's worth of earmarks = 7 weeks in Iraq, or 1/40th of the Wall Street Bailout. Pardon me if I'm not impressed.
Taxes were a BFD: $700K a year more to the clowns who want the $700 Billion Bailout. Corporate taxes that nobody ever pays.
Thank you, Althouse, for live-blogging this debate and for providing this space for comments.
Commenters, your many varied perceptions, astute observations and witty remarks have cheered me greatly. Much better than the debate itself.
Surprise! Obama supporters believe their candidate won the debate. McCain supporters believe their candidate won the debate. Such is the affect of partisan group-think.
As for myself, I can no longer stand it. My impulse throughout was to turn it off, but my greater impulse was the dread of missing something important. I could have done as well just reading through here.
The best thing about tonight is I finished making two identical pop-up cards for my sister and sister-in-law for their birthdays in a few days. Tomorrow morning I will mail them to opposite sides of the country. I hope they enjoy them as much as I did making them. You can see the cards and the construction process here, if it suits you.
Just sorry that when Obama mentioned education, McCain didn't say, oh you mean the political re-education camps you sponsored with unrepentant terrorist Bill Ayers at the Chicago Annenberg project, where you spent 150 million dollars and got no positive results, or did you mean sponsoring comprehensive sex education for kindergarteners?
Let me add, though, that on the financial crisis mess, although Obama sounded more competent and knowledgable to me (an extreme layperson on economics), neither of them actually made me feel comfortable that they'd know what the heck they're doing to guide us through it. I kept hearing them say shit like, "and I support other essential aspects" to added to the bailout plan. That's like a bullshitting college student! Paraphrase. They were both kinda bluffing their way through it. But Obama drew some blood when he quoted McCain saying just recently that the USA is financially sound. And I agree with Obama that the average American has been hurting for quite some time, which has been ignored by Republicans. But then I live in the poorest city in America - Cleveland - so I guess I see the worst.
William said...
"I see no reason to dislike Obama on the basis of this debate.
Doesn't he just grate on you? Every time he opens his mouth, I just cringe. What idiocy, I think to myself, what lie, distortion, misrepresentation is going to spew forth from his lips and clatter misshapen onto the ground in the ensuing seconds? Which vapid banality will he fall back on? What utterly flawed premise will he misreason his way from? God help whatever Chicago exurb he ends up on the city council of when this Presidential thing folds, becaue he reminds me of the general in Hot Shots!
I mean, really. Put him in a room with Hillary Clinton and no other witnesses. Let her beat some sense into him.
Ah, the lefties show up. Approved talking points: "McCain is old and probably senile." "McCain is a warmongering nutjob." Oh, and "Earmarks and pork are meaningless in the context of the current crisis."
The last will work especially well for The One this year.
Resurgent Al-Qaeda?
I like McCain much more without his handlers.
mcg:
Kissinger: "Senator McCain is right. I would not recommend the next President of the United States engage in talks with Iran at the Presidential level."
But if you actually take the time to read the transcript:
OBAMA: "Senator McCain mentioned Henry Kissinger, who's one of his advisers, who, along with five recent secretaries of state, just said that we should meet with Iran -- guess what -- without precondition. This is one of your own advisers."
He NEVER said Kissinger said the President himself would meet...he said Kissinger said "WE" should meet.
Also, Obama added the following:
OBAMA: "Now, understand what this means "without preconditions." It doesn't mean that you invite them over for tea one day. What it means is that we don't do what we've been doing, which is to say, "Until you agree to do exactly what we say, we won't have direct contacts with you."
There's a difference between preconditions and preparation. Of course we've got to do preparations, starting with low-level diplomatic talks, and it may not work, because Iran is a rogue regime."
NOTE: "...starting with low level diplomatic talks..."
God I wish Clinton was the nominee. It's so much better when you can respect the opposition candidate.
So far every focus group and poll says Obama won the debate by 10-20%.
Too bad, looks like the pack here is wrong again.
Simon, You're such a little creep.
There's not an intellectual bone in your body.
Verso: "Andrew Sullivan made the interesting point that if one wants to find a Palin defender these days you have to go to the Althouse blog."
That reminds me. Is Sullivan still demanding that Palin produce her amniocentesis records? Maybe Palin should make him a deal. She'll produce proof that she's Trig's mother if he can prove he has a high enough red cell count to write an intelligent column.
Incredibly nice work Chip. Cards are identical huh so no worry if you send to the wrong coast. Heh.
You are a thoughtful gift giver. Good quality to have. I bet McCain is too; Obama not so much.
Jeez I am a partisan bastard.
Simon says: "Doesn't he just grate on you? Every time he opens his mouth, I just cringe. What idiocy..."
Like I said...you are really a creep.
Well Michael I hope your polls keep you warm tonight. : )
"...if one wants to find a Palin defender these days you have to go to the Althouse blog."
That's about right.
Anybody see her response about the bail out or how living in Alaska (so close to Russia) is so important?
Excruciating to watch.
I agree Obama grates on me. I actually see similarities between Bush and Obama - when they think they are making a smart point they both get this excited stance and wait for the applause.
Michael said...
"Simon, You're such a little creep. ¶ There's not an intellectual bone in your body."
That's like being told by Heinrich Himmler that you're not really his kind of guy. It approaches a compliment when you consider the source.
I concur 100% with what #421 said! My voice counts too! sheesh! This is really unbelievable, Ms. Ann!
I stand by my record, by the way - my SSRN page is linked from my Blogger profile, as is my blog. Michael, meanwhile, prefers to remain anonymous. Anyone can see my record on a broad sprectrum of topics, all in my own name. Curious that Michael prefers to throw around aspersions without letting us see what he thinks. Oddly enough, I don't feel threatened having my intellectual capacity questioned by an anonymous pissant little coward.
Thanks to everyone for commenting!
Michael the German Valise- I thought you croaked watching Obambi huff and puff and lookangry and stammer and hem and haw.
Wait til the polls come out you stunod idiot.
I predict Obama will win no more than 4-5 states..IL, HI,MA,NY and CA. Landslide Mikey - read it and weep.
Roger J: "You do realize, of course, that it is the electoral college that determines the President--but please, continue to cite national polling. Its VERY convincing."
McCain has never been my choice for president (as I've said here before, I'm doing what I've done since 1968--vote Libertarian) but as a more or less rational observer I thought he looked a lot better than McCain tonight. McCain doesn't seem to think logically. At least he doesn't talk that way.
Regarding electoral votes, on Real Clear Politics Obama is leading 228 to 163. In my opinion, Obama's got the election in the bag. (This doesn't depress or elate me. I've been depressed for months that these are the two best our country could do.)
Althouse says thanks but no verdict out of her. She is no fun anymore. Nuetrality can be cruel.
Anonymous Little Pissant Cowards would be a good name for a band.
700... me too, me too
Althouse: "Thanks to everyone for commenting!"
If you want to thank me in concrete fashion, you can send me $50, which is what I lost investing in gold today.
Sooner or later you're going to get around to explaining in some credible fashion why McCain's selection of Palin is so "reckless" compared to the Democrats' even more "insanely unqualified choice" of Presidential nominee.
Obama has been engaged in the issues of world affairs for a long time now. Palin just parachuted into the race at the last moment and hadn't uttered more than two sentences on world affairs. When we see her in interviews (she gives very few of them) she comes off as someone who hasn't even thought about foreign policy before this month, which is scary considering how high the stakes are. I just don't think I can be reasonably asked to risk the fate of my country on someone like Palin, given the unusually high chance McCain might not be able to complete his term if elected.
I don't think Obama is as left wing on foreign policy as some people try and paint him. He has completely convinced me that he takes the Iranian threat seriously enough, and he's also convinced me that he wants to take out al Qaeda in Pakistan more than the Republicans do. As far as his comments about meeting with various enemies with no preconditions, I (perhaps with wishfully thinking) believe he regrets he said that but doesn't wanna admit he was wrong during the campaign. I think he'll be well enough advised to avoid meetings that would be harmful to America.
My primary concern about Obama on foreign policy is that I can't trust him as much as McCain to ensure that Iraq winds up a victory. I grant Obama points for being smarter than I was in the run-up to the Iraq invasion, but once you're there you have to finish the job and leave something better behind.
Thanks to everyone for commenting!
You r wellcome.
Gee, now I kind of wish I'd actually bothered to watch the debate. Is this a new record for number of comments here? :)
Great debate. Palin v. Biden next!
Maybe someone has already said this tonight, but the debate reminded me of Grasshopper and Master.
I enjoyed the debate. Now I'm back home, and here I am to see what people are saying on Althouse...
700+ comments?!
Wow.
Kissy kissy Obama, get tough with the Pakis! Ah, well, even though our drones and other assets have been crossing the border for some time killing people in Pakiland and a report out claims the Pakis were shooting at one of our choppers, we do need to make them track down bin laden and kill him. Essentially that means getting tough with them and if we see targets there in order to protect Americans at home, we hit em'! Now that's how Barack Hussein Obama will lead us in war as CIC because that's what he would do even though we have been doing that but nobody knows that except him. Of course the children of the world won't like us much for getting tough with the Pakis but only if they have electricity where they live so they can fire up their computers and can register their disdain of America. I hope some of you agree with these points of policy.
John Stodder, congrats on your 9:34 comment making the front page on the Anchoress!
Had to come back to say that. :)
Freeman, the Anchoress said our comments were smart, whilst Ace's commenters were funny.
And I would agree! Ace's commenters went nuts talking about riding milky bareback.
(Yeah, I have no idea what that is either, but it sounds fun)
LoafingOaf said...
"Obama has been engaged in the issues of world affairs for a long time now. ... I just don't think I can be reasonably asked to risk the fate of my country on someone like Palin, given the unusually high chance McCain might not be able to complete his term if elected."
Obama's a first term United States Senator whose previous work experience is negligible at best and who gives the impression of having absolutely no clue about the world around us - not even the faintest glimmer of comprehension. This guy doesn't even understand this country and you think he understands how other cultures think? As McCain said - please. And you continue to ignore the reality that whereas Palin might end up as President, Obama - far less experienced than she, and with instincts so far from acceptable that it isn't even funny - will be President. On day one. That prospect scares the hell out of me. I don't want him anywhere near the Presidency.
"My primary concern about Obama on foreign policy is that I can't trust him as much as McCain to ensure that Iraq winds up a victory."
I don't see how you can as much as entertain the idea that Obama has the slightest interest in ensuring that we win in Iraq. Obama has two priorities: get our forces out, and blame Bush for whatever happened. You can count on that.
"I grant Obama points for being smarter than I was in the run-up to the Iraq invasion, but once you're there you have to finish the job and leave something better behind."
While I agree with the second clause, the first mistakenly buys into Obama's framing of the issue. Obama was wrong about Iraq. He said we shouldn't go. It was not a given that we would fail; a reasonable observer at the time would have assumed the administration was competent. That it was not buys Obama nothing.
Both candidates did a great job, but Obama won for sure. To argue otherwise implies you're not paying attention.
Still, a great debate. Obama won it tonight.
Rev, I believe it is.
Oh, I wanna add one more thing. I've long believed that it would be good for the War on Terrorism if a Democrat president took over as Commanderin Chief because it would help unify the country in this fight. People would be less partisan over the war if they saw a Democrat Commander in Chief having to continue the fight. Now some will say Obama is some kind of "manchurian candidate" who would not defend the Free World against the "evil-doers" as W. Bush calls them. I don't believe this. what I believe is that the War on Islamic-terrorism (or whatever you wanna call it) could benefit from it becoming a more bipartisan war. We need Bush out of the way, and beyond that, perhaps the best thing we could have is a Democrat in charge of it for a term. Notice how quickly Democrat partisans restrained themselves, for example, when Obama didn't take the left wing position on FISA.
Furthermore, it should be obvious that if Obama were sworn in the USA would instantly benefit (at least in the short-term) to a tremendous surge in goodwill towards us across the world. This matters.
Barack Obama's Youtube site responds!
But it's not an ad. Tellingly, very tellingly, it's a video of the Iraq point made by Obama, courtesy of MSNBC.
Does he really want to riposte highlighting his stuttering reply?
"Lllllet's ggget back to the core issue"
Ay.
Tom Burg said...
"Both candidates did a great job, but Obama won for sure. To argue otherwise implies you're not paying attention."
Obama effectively conveyed what he hinks about several issues. To argue that he lost need imply only that you disagree with him on the issues he addressed.
Tom Burg, what debate were you watching?
"Furthermore, it should be obvious that if Obama were sworn in the USA would instantly benefit (at least in the short-term) to a tremendous surge in goodwill towards us across the world. This matters."
Bullshit. This "goodwill" would last about two fucking minutes and then "the world" (usually meaning Europe when said by the likes of you) would go back to their default position on the US: jealous hatred.
Whether or not Barack Obama manages to get elected, "the world" can go fuck itself. It's good at doing that.
freeman, evidently the same debate every focus group and polled group was watching:
So far every focus group and poll says Obama won the debate by 10-20%.
Too bad, looks like the pack here is wrong again.
pallidian: where was this "jealous hatred" you describe when reagan, bush sr. and clinton were president?
you're talking out of your ass.
haha, "Michael's" comments in this thread are embarrassingly, wonderfully pathetic. Talk about scared shitless!
mcg, i can't help but notice that you haven't responded to the transcript i provided.
Palladian - you ever get the feeling that Obama has some serious daddy issues? "Why doens't the world love me, I mean us? If only the world could love me, I mean us! Love me/us! Respect me/us!" Must we be dragged into his psychotherapy?
again: pallidian: where was this "jealous hatred" you describe when reagan, bush sr. and clinton were president?
you're talking out of your ass.
pallidian: where was this "jealous hatred" you describe when reagan, bush sr. and clinton were president?
you're talking out of your ass."
Miccheieal, I don't know, you might want to ask the first World Trade Center bombers, the USS Cole bombers, the Iranians, the Somalis...
simon, where do you come up with this idiocy?
daddy issues?
you're such a creepy little dude.
"Must we be dragged into his psychotherapy?"
It's not just Obama. It's at least half of the Democratic party.
Like I said, I like McCain better than I like his campaign.
The McCain is Right YouTube ad that the McCain campaign put out after the debate may end up overshadowing McCain's everything said in the debate.
It's a bit like that weird grin that McCain flashes when he scores a debate point. It's not helping, unless he's trying to reinforce the idea that he has a nasty streak.
Tom Burg, what debate were you watching?
Maybe Tom was looking for Obama's seal and missed it.
vbspurs said...
John Stodder, congrats on your 9:34 comment making the front page on the Anchoress!
Had to come back to say that. :)
Thanks. Very nice.
One of my Althouse comments became the basis for a story on Salon, which then became a question on "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" in which I was cited by name. I got a call from my boss and my wife's aunt after the NPR mention.
I don't know why I don't save my best lines for my own blogs.
Michael, is your real name Gene? C'mon, you can tell us!
palladian, why can't you answer honestly?
i mentioned three presidents over a period of 20 years and all you can do is throw a cheap shot at bill clinton? and why would you still think, after all we know now, that it's jealous hatred driving the terrorists?
you get dumber by the day.
actually most people cal me mike, but if it makes you feel better...
"One of my Althouse comments became the basis for a story on Salon, which then became a question on "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" in which I was cited by name. I got a call from my boss and my wife's aunt after the NPR mention.
I don't know why I don't save my best lines for my own blogs."
Hey, I remember that comment mentioned on "Wait, Wait" back when I used to listen to it! I also remember that Carl Kasell once read an excerpt of one of Ann's posts in his "female" voice.
"i mentioned three presidents over a period of 20 years and all you can do is throw a cheap shot at bill clinton? and why would you still think, after all we know now, that it's jealous hatred driving the terrorists?"
You're right. The thing that drives the terrorists is probably the same thing that drives your repetitive gainsaying: obsessive stupidity.
Since the debate ended there's so much astroturf around here you could get a rugburn trying to keep up with the Axelshafts.
I still wonder what the pay structure is....
Michael, did you travel abroad during the 1980s? I did, and didn't observe a lot of love for the USA.
Michael said...
"simon, where do you come up with this idiocy?"
Well, gee, you have your guy constantly talking - won't shut up about it - about how much he wants the approval of the world for what the United States does. Sounds like a textbook case of projection to me. What sane, rational individual fetishizes the approval of other countries? I was born in another country. Grew up - or at least came of age - in anther country. I'm an American now. And as far as I'm concerned, other countries can go hang before Americans should weigh their approval vel non in deciding policy questions. Abjuring all allegiances...
The McCain is Right YouTube ad that the McCain campaign put out after the debate may end up overshadowing McCain's everything said in the debate.
Peter, I think you might have hit it on the nose. The "John is right" mashup might be like Al Gore's serial sighs, which turned around how that first debate was perceived. The post-debate commentary and polls all had Gore winning his first debate, but by a week later perceptions changed.
I bet the Obama campaign folks were biting their fists every time he did that.
I could be wrong, but I think the "Obama won by not losing" meme is all wet, and that within a few days, this debate will be described as a triumph for McCain. You win by winning, not by not losing. There were low expectations for both candidates, and they both exceeded them in what was a much better debate than anyone probably expected. But McCain took the prize. Or so I think.
Michael said...
"actually most people cal[l] me mike"
Perhaps we should call you Mister Garibaldi...
Yes, Michaell, I just saw that even FOX News is declaring Obama the winner.
But amongst the Althouse commenters, perhaps they watched a different debate?
It was cute, though, when they got all arrogant over McCain's short bounce after his convention. Some of them were even saying Obama's campaign was in "crisis"!
HAHA - I knew McCain was gonna lose right at the first question, when McCain spent more than half his 2 minutes talking about Ted Kennedy being in the hospital and then going on about how happy he was to see bipartisanship during the financial crisis. Obama didn't take 90 seconds of B.S. before getting to his response to the question. He was getting right into it after only about 10 seconds of introductory B.S.
McCain is a peffectly resptable Senator and probably should've been Prez in 2000. But he's gonna lose this election. It's obvious now.
peter, you mean while reagan was president?
or carter?
i've been to europe many times, actually worked in spain, france and greece for quite some time and never ran into anything horribly anti-american.
i think most europeans still like and respect americans, but we've lost quite a bit of our luster over the past 8 years.
McCain is a perfectly respectable Senator and probably should've been Prez in 2000. But he's gonna lose this election. It's obvious now.
Typo corrections. Sorry for being one of the people playing the drinking game! I'm wasted....
The "John is right" mashup might be like Al Gore's serial sighs, which turned around how that first debate was perceived.
I'm not sure that's a given. The reaction to Gore came from the fact that the sighing made him look like a prat, a supercilious snit.
Barack may have made a mistake in using the typical argument strategy of acknowledging common ground then moving on to where his own argument differed, but it's just as possible that McCain's video will be seen as childish, on the level of nyah-nyah. But who knows? I just don't see the video making a big change in the race.
simon, whatever.
i don't really care.
Oops. In my 11:31 I meant to write:
The McCain is Right YouTube ad that the McCain campaign put out after the debate may end up overshadowing everything McCain said in the debate.
john: "...within a few days, this debate will be described as a triumph for McCain..."
GFL.
LoafingOaf said...
"McCain spent more than half his 2 minutes talking about Ted Kennedy being in the hospital and then going on about how happy he was to see bipartisanship during the financial crisis."
I'm inclined to agree that that was a waste of time, a futile gesture towards any enemy that holds him in nothing but contempt. Nevertheless, I think you'd be surprised how many people don't see it our way. I really thought McCain totally ballsed up his convention speech, but a lot of undecided voters really liked it. We are not the fount of wisdom so far as the perceptions of ordinary voters are convered, LO.
"Earmarks and pork are meaningless in the context of the current crisis."
McCain: Penny wise and pound foolish.
McCain lied about supporting vets by the way. From Project VoteSmart:
Veterans Issues
(Back to top)
2006 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 20 percent in 2006.
2006 In 2006 Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America gave Senator McCain a grade of D.
2006 Senator McCain sponsored or co-sponsored 18 percent of the legislation favored by the The Retired Enlisted Association in 2006.
2005 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 25 percent in 2005.
2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 50 percent in 2004.
2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the The Retired Enlisted Association 0 percent in 2004.
2003-2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Vietnam Veterans of America 100 percent in 2003-2004.
2003 Senator McCain supported the interests of the The American Legion 50 percent in 2003.
2001 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Vietnam Veterans of America 46 percent in 2001.
1999 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 66 percent in 1999.
1997-1998 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Vietnam Veterans of America 0 percent in 1997-1998.
1989-1990 On the votes that the Vietnam Veterans of America considered to be the most important in 1989-1990 , Senator McCain voted their preferred position 50 percent of the time.
the problem with the "you're right" ad is that it will be out of context for those who didn't see the debate and meaningless for those who did.
"I could be wrong, but I think the "Obama won by not losing" meme is all wet, and that within a few days, this debate will be described as a triumph for McCain. You win by winning, not by not losing."
My guess is the whole "let's not debate during the crisis" thing is going to redound to McCain's credit as well. "Yes, I can work the machinery of Government, yes, I can come down to Mississippi and give you hell anyway, and yes tomorrow I'll be back in Washington doing what needs to be done to get out of this sorry mess."
And Obama's going to have to respond with negative ads and astroturf.
(FTR, I don't like the insta-released McCain ad; the end "Not ready to lead" was obviously voiced before the content was available, which undercut the "John is right" riff. Leaders listen when their opposition is right.)
Michael, I traveled abroad when Reagan was president. A neighbor of mine studied abroad at the same time -- in Australia. He said that the Americans he was with tried to pass themselves off as Canadians in order to escape the anti-American crap that was all too present. My experience in India wasn't quite like that, but I did run into some people with strong anti-American sentiments. Not from Indians, mind you, but from Europeans traveling or living in India.
pallidian, now you're dealing in pure nonsense.
if you can't respond, buzz off.
i've been to europe many times, actually worked in spain, france and greece for quite some time and never ran into anything horribly anti-american.
When I was in Spain and Portugal as a child I was surprised to see anti-American graffiti here and there. I'm not sure what was going on at the time as I was a very small child. Perhaps someone from teh USA was visiting those countries at the time.
But I think everyone, by now, should be extremely tired of these hardcore right wingers acting like we shouldn't give a shit what the rest of the world thinks of us. I'm proud that Islamo-fascists and evil totalitarian regimes hates us, I'm proud that we're a "Great Satan" to the Islamic terror-lovers, but the idea that it doesn't matter what the rest of the Free World thinks of us is really sick thinking. Bush and his administration has done a lot of damage to our reputation and we need to repair that damage immediately. Obama can clearly help in that.
But again, I just wish Obama wasn't gonna be sworn in with a Democrat House and Senate. Republicans are at their best when they're keeping a Democrat president in check. But I suppose there's little chance of Republicans gaining in Congress when Obama's gonna win the White House.
former law student said...
"Earmarks and pork are meaningless in the context of the current crisis."
I love it when I get quoted, arguably in context, by an astroturfer, who then goes on to spread more plastic greenery.
Doesn't get any better than that.
peter, reagan scared the hell out of some people, but my primary associations were with business people and they had found him likable and hated the russians much more.
australians have minds of their own, but i'm surprised they felt that way about him.
i have good friends in australia and have never found that to be the case.
one of the things mccain kept saying tonight was how wonderful things were in iraq right now...but at the same time...we better not leave.
i don't think that plays.
"simon, whatever.
i don't really care."
"pallidian, now you're dealing in pure nonsense.
if you can't respond, buzz off."
In other words, "I don't want to be in your dumb old club anyway! I'm going home! Mommy! Wahhhh!!"
I like how when Mihcael slumps to the carpet in existential despair, realizing that his whole world is a ridiculous farce, he stops using capital letters. It's like ee cummings doing Anne Sexton.
"but the idea that it doesn't matter what the rest of the Free World thinks of us is really sick thinking."
Really? You care what the Socialists in Spain think of us? You care what Britain, whose society is coming to resemble a nightmarish mash-up of "1984" and "A Clockwork Orange", thinks of us? Sure, it's nice when "the world" occasionally and accidentally "likes" us. But it's not a goal to be pursued by our elected leaders. "The world" will like us only when we submit and subjugate ourselves to the will of the United Nations. The "world" will only like us when we're no longer a competitor against them. The "world" will only be happy with us when we've thoroughly gone down their path of obsolescence. I used to think that "the world" only liked us when we were wounded, as they did for about 24 hours on September 11, 2001. But we're wounded right now, economically, and all I've seen from "the world" is glee and schadenfreude followed by bitter anger and resentment once they realized that the shock and infection following this wound will take them out as well.
Why McCain wins: at this point the race is all about tactics, and McCain has pulled some wild ones out of his nether regions. Some I like (Palin) some not so much ("Suspend the campaign") but he's making even the bad ones pay dividends because Obama keeps playing catchup.
What I don't like about McCain is that he is a fighter jock, all about how do I make this situation work in this moment. (Well, not all about that; he was right earlier than most about the subprime mess.)
But Obama has totally ditched his "post-racial/post-partisan" strategy, and if he won't play big picture, and he can't do better small picture, then he's got nothing.
palladian, you have a club now?
cool.
Guys, please forgive the OT, but if anyone has video on Chris Matthews latest insulting behaviour, please let me know.
He called McCain a troll. He's angry at what he perceives to be disrespect towards Obama by McCain so since he's in the tank for Obama, he's responding on his behalf.
Utterly, utterly disgraceful.
palladian says: "I like how when Mihcael slumps to the carpet in existential despair, realizing that his whole world is a ridiculous farce, he stops using capital letters. It's like ee cummings doing Anne Sexton."
i see the prozac's kicking in.
goodnight.
between the sen obama/john stuff and all the interrupting, obama looks like a supreme jerk
You care what Britain, whose society is coming to resemble a nightmarish mash-up of "1984" and "A Clockwork Orange", thinks of us?
In a million years, I never thought this could be possible, but when my homeland allowed Shar'ia Courts, trumping the greatest legacy our country has given the world (our legal system and common law), it my lost respect.
My love, always. But unquestioning respect, gone.
Victoria, I'm an Anglophile in the extreme and it saddens me no end what England is doing to itself. Albion's dance of death is a terrible sight indeed.
...
Guess everyone went to bed. Good idea.
But
I
just
have to
stay up
long enough
to leave
Comment number 777 for the glory of JESUS!
Yay! I have redeemed myself for leaving Comment #666 in two different Althouse threads!
mark said: My guess is the whole "let's not debate during the crisis" thing is going to redound to McCain's credit as well. "Yes, I can work the machinery of Government, yes, I can come down to Mississippi and give you hell anyway, and yes tomorrow I'll be back in Washington doing what needs to be done to get out of this sorry mess."
Good point and nice bottom line summary. And guess who wins the whole I can "multitask" farce.
I missed the entire TV debate tonight (familial obligations), and caught only few minutes live on the car radio.
I did skim the Althouse log and comments, have to say that McCain won it on substance.
Victoria, Palladian, Simon, Stodder, michael H, paddy, erniecu, you guys rock!
McCain CRUSHED Obama.
How? Just watch the debate again. Obama comes across MUCH worse on a repeat viewing - I suspect it's because, like a repeat viewing of a movie, we notice things that passed us by the first time around.
Do yourself a favor and watch it again. The proof will be that the McCain camp will have at least a dozen ads from the debate, Obama will have at most one or two.
I'm watching it now, Lava. It's not a pretty performance by Senator Obama. This is why McCain is getting skewered by his media buddies.
Thanks Palladian and Chickenlittle for your kinds words. :)
shorter chicken:
I didn't watch the debate and heard only a snippet, but I went to a blog full of McCain voters and HE OBLITERATED OBAMA! Kewl.
I've just spent a couple hours reading comments from all over the web and the varying opinions are fascinating. From right wing and left wing crazies alike...Obama won! McCain won!
Considering neither of them had one main moment, and they both maintained their composure throughout, I can't see how anyone can say that one of them won over the other.
Then again, I am drunk.
It's fair to say they both held their own. This was no washout for either one.
But McCain has a nifty "I won!" ad all ready to go, so he wins.
Palladian, if you're still awake, and there's an off-chance you being in California and all, that you are, but...
Could you work your Photoshop magic for a composite of Chris Matthews as a troll?
What I'm struck, in comparing these two snaps, is how much Chris Matthews looks like a troll himself.
Think about it. A shock of white hair, and leprechaun, albino-like face -- that's Chris Matthews.
I wonder if some part of Liberals makes them supremely unhappy to be what they are, because it's so vanilla compared to the world they think is so much cooler than they are?
Problem with us Conservatives is that we think we're either pretty cool already, or being cool is something you get over when you're 19?
Cheers,
Victoria
beth said:
shorter chicken:
I didn't watch the debate and heard only a snippet, but I went to a blog full of McCain voters and HE OBLITERATED OBAMA! Kewl.
Longer chicken: I'm searching around for what I missed to cover my ass for having misspoke. Please help me point my browser...
Oh, VB: were you always just sure you were sitting at the cool kids table in high school? Really. Your comment sounds a like some snobby little cheerleader, just convinced everyone else is jealous of how cool she and her friends are. Those poor uncheerleaders. They must be awful unhappy not to be like us!
And do you find any irony whatsoever asking Palladian to go on the attack over someone using the word "troll" - he throws it around like confetti in this blog.
chicken, surf over to Kos and I'm sure a bunch of people will be sure that Obama won on substance.
True believers are so entertaining.
Beth: Thanks for the tip. I just went by Kos. They're talking about the Titanic. My ten year-old son knows more about the Titanic than what I read there.
Your comment sounds a like some snobby little cheerleader, just convinced everyone else is jealous of how cool she and her friends are.
I was made Pep Squad captain actually!
BTW, almost 800 posts so far.
For Biden/Palin, unless Ann opens another thread mid-stream, I predict it'll hit 900 easy.
Oh, BTW:
Photographs of the Debate.
VB, was that recently? Just wondering...
Just kidding! But I scare myself! What am I? Psychic? Or are your pom-poms showing?
Or are your pom-poms showing?
Wouldn't you like to know, you saucy minx! Rrr. Call me.
;)
Night, Beth!
Okay, VB: great photos. Why is the deuces bad in Britain?
And as for greeting Cindy, she already knows it ain't that big, John. Nice try.
Night, VB. You can fill me in on British faux pas another day.
Means F-U.
When the English and our magnificent Welsh Longbowmen were captured by the French, the Frenchies would cut off the index finger and middle finger so that they would be unable to continue their deadly accurate killing.
So showing off the two fingers in what Americans call the "V-Sign" has been a show of defiance and rudeness for 800 years. :)
Of course, we also have the V-Sign, vide Churchill.
It's rude only when you raise the fingers fast, up, and palm showing towards your insultee.
Snore. Sorry! I was not only Pep Squad Captain, I was also President of the History Club. I was such a pistol.
Err, the palm towards you! Whew. It's late, me tired.
Oh and for added effect, you need to give your insultee a raspberry, aka Bronx cheer. Hi Trooper!
(I just wanted to post the 800th post)
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