Ms. Hochul, was concerned about what she saw as clumsy messaging by Mr. Mamdani as he introduced the esoteric tax to New Yorkers. She told the mayor that he needed to be clearer about how the tax would be administered and whom it would affect, according to two people familiar with their talks, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe private conversations. The governor had taken note of how the mayor, a democratic socialist who campaigned on “taxing the rich,” was talking about the policy. In a widely seen video, for instance, the mayor had decided to highlight an especially expensive second home owned by a hedge fund manager, Kenneth C. Griffin.
“There’s a better way to do it,” said, Ms. Hochul a pro-business moderate. “Point to Russian oligarchs and Saudi princes” rather than someone who invests in the city, she added.
I did finally watch the whole minute. From the transcript: "This pied-a-terre tax is specifically designed for the richest of the rich, those who store their wealth in New York City real estate, but who don't actually live here.... This is a fundamentally unfair system that hurts working New Yorkers."
What's "fundamentally unfair"? It's a child's reasoning: If someone has something that he's not using, it should be mine.
The NYT calls the new tax "esoteric." I wonder what other adjectives it considered. Is it esoteric because it's hard for the general public to understand, or is it esoteric because it only applies to a discrete group of people?
OED definition of "esoteric": "Of philosophical doctrines, treatises, modes of speech, etc.: Designed for, or appropriate to, an inner circle of advanced or privileged disciples; communicated to, or intelligible by, the initiated exclusively." The "transferred" meanings are: "Of motives, purposes, etc.: Not openly avowed," and "Pertaining to a select circle; private, confidential."
From the OED's historical quotes, I found this, from 1866, helpful: "He had two motives in his visit, an exoteric and an esoteric motive." I like that: "exoteric and.. esoteric." We almost never say "exoteric." Why use an obscure word to express the opposite of obscure?
But anyway, I take it the NYT is calling the pied-a-terre tax obscure, and Hochul is criticizing Mamdani's communication as not obscure enough.
ADDED: When Mamdani suddenly loomed right into the camera and tapped the screen — right after he said "When I ran for mayor, I said I'm gonna tax the risk" — I felt like he was saying "Ha ha, I'm coming for you!"
పోస్ట్లు
87 కామెంట్లు:
With Democrats, it's never a content problem, it's a messaging problem.
Mr. Islam smiles for the camera - what else do you need?
He's a failed rap artist with rich parents. Madman's financial ignorance and economic ineptitude = warm cozy hug for the like minded mass ignorant.
RNB - exactly. It's not the rotting cake underneath - it's the sticky pink frosting and smile glitter didn't cover it all up.
It's dishonest to say the tax applies to properties worth $5 million or more. It seems the highest rates apply to properties worth $1 million or more.
One- to Three-Family Homes $5 million or more 0.8% to 1.3%
Condominium Units $1 million or more 4% to 6.5%
Co-op Units $1 million or more 4% to 6.5%
fundamentally unfair"? It's a child's reasoning:
Indeed. "No FAIR!" is the backbone of dangerously poor economic education. And Bernie Sander's decades of scamming lazy thinkers.
What's so "esoteric" about it? It's your basic Democrat/Socialist "boil the frogs slowly" strategy while explaining to the other frogs with a huge grin how it's just bringing "the warmth of collectivism" to them.
can't we ALL AGREE, that we Need to "tax the rich"?
is it FAIR, that "the rich" pay NO TAXES, on ANY THING?
shouldn't "the rich" be paying at least as much in taxes as the poor do?
what's that? oh; never mind
When I watch these communists take power in various places, it feels like watching someone come out of a bar so drunk they can hardly walk, and see them get into a car and drive away.
fact: The rich already pay most of the taxes.
Dear Walzian Newsum leftists - STOP WASTING BILLIONS with your SCAMS AND FRAUD.
Our massive public debt is mostly democrat corruption and democrat-specific fraud schemes.
Hochul, “a pro-business moderate”.
That’s downright hysterical.
They're trying to claw back revenue lost when people changed their residency to avoid the rising taxes, but still wanted to keep their ties to the city. The implication of his emphasis on, "they don't live here" is that they are some kind of traitorous, unsavory out group trying to cheat NYC rather than free people exercising their freedoms.
so, the plan is; to chase all of "the rich" away from NYC?
this would help WHO? i mean, besides Florida?
From the Department of Our Ideas Aren't Bad, Just The Way We Explain Them.
The rollout could have been better - he could've lied his way through it completely instead of only a little bit. Give Mamdani credit: he didn't lie about it as much as Hochul would've, with her "talk about the Saudi princes, not about the Americans we're ALSO going to tax the heck out of."
It's never the policy that is wrong - only the messaging. "If we had done a better job of convincing the proles, they would of course support our actions."
Under this law, starting July 1, 2028, all properties valued at $5 million or more will be taxed uniformly at rates of 0.8% to 1.3% based on their market value.
The alternative to "esoteric" was "stupid and unproductive". But they rejected that because criticism of democrat politicians is not allowed.
It's become obvious that the poor quality of our Democrat-run education system is no accident, but rather the foundation of their strategy.
I assume that if you have more than one house you are already paying multiple times the taxes that a single home owner would, and if they are income properties, then many many times as much. If you have a club where just a few of the members are paying most of the dues, it seems like the fair thing is to get everybody paying, not ask the payers to pay more.
"Ms. Hochul a pro-business moderate." Compared to whom -Mamdani?
Why did they use that particular word? Let's go to Webster.
𝘦𝘴𝘰𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘤, 𝘢𝘥𝘫𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘪𝘷𝘦
1 𝘢: 𝘥𝘦𝘴𝘪𝘨𝘯𝘦𝘥 𝘧𝘰𝘳 𝘰𝘳 𝘶𝘯𝘥𝘦𝘳𝘴𝘵𝘰𝘰𝘥 𝘣𝘺 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘴𝘱𝘦𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭𝘭𝘺 𝘪𝘯𝘪𝘵𝘪𝘢𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘢𝘭𝘰𝘯𝘦
𝘣: 𝘳𝘦𝘲𝘶𝘪𝘳𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘰𝘳 𝘦𝘹𝘩𝘪𝘣𝘪𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘬𝘯𝘰𝘸𝘭𝘦𝘥𝘨𝘦 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘵𝘰 𝘢 𝘴𝘮𝘢𝘭𝘭 𝘨𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘱
2 𝘢: 𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘪𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘵𝘰 𝘢 𝘴𝘮𝘢𝘭𝘭 𝘤𝘪𝘳𝘤𝘭𝘦
𝘦𝘯𝘨𝘢𝘨𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘪𝘯 𝘦𝘴𝘰𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘤 𝘱𝘶𝘳𝘴𝘶𝘪𝘵𝘴
𝘣: 𝘱𝘳𝘪𝘷𝘢𝘵𝘦, 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘧𝘪𝘥𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘪𝘢𝘭
3: 𝘰𝘧 𝘴𝘱𝘦𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭, 𝘳𝘢𝘳𝘦, 𝘰𝘳 𝘶𝘯𝘶𝘴𝘶𝘢𝘭 𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘵
It becomes more clear when we go to what Webster says is it's opposite,
𝘦𝘹𝘰𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘤, 𝘢𝘥𝘫𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘪𝘷𝘦
1𝘢: 𝘴𝘶𝘪𝘵𝘢𝘣𝘭𝘦 𝘵𝘰 𝘣𝘦 𝘪𝘮𝘱𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘵𝘰 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘱𝘶𝘣𝘭𝘪𝘤
Obviously it's a tax that us little people, the great unwashed, are incapable of understanding. And it must be imposed from above, if necessary, by force. Because we're too ignorant to understand it's importance.
Unfortunately for them, there are many of us, far too many for their taste, who do understand the tax. And the effects, wholly negative, it will will have on real estate markets. And on tax collection overall as those who actually pay the majority of taxes flee the city to avoid them.
Not the state of a downward spiral. NYC is already in one without this esoteric tax. But a steepening of it, bringing the city to the bottom more quickly.
“ I felt like he was saying "Ha ha, I'm coming for you!"
Other states will start taxing New Yorkers' vacation getaway homes. After all, they aren't using them, are they?
A word about Zohran's mum and her many pieds à terre ...
"Filmmaker Mira Nair does not have just one single vacation home; rather, she splits her time among primary residences in Kampala (Uganda), New Delhi (India), and New York City (USA), while traveling to coastal spots like Goa and Martha’s Vineyard to recharge."
He is.
A couple thoughts:
- a lot of those owners ‘wasting’ Manhattan property are ChiComs and rich foreign Muslims. Are these the people he wants to piss off?
- under Kelo, he could just eminent-domain the pieds a terre. The first few would be expensive, but the FMV of the rest would quickly plummet. Kind of like blockbusting back in the racist days. Then he could give the condemned homes to the poor. CC, JSM
Is Mamdani stupid or is he interested in accelerating a preference cascade for other cities in other states? If so, why?
Where will the fleeing taxpayers go? Florida?
…the best way to roll it out better would have been to forget about it . It will never raise anywhere near what the never-seen-an-Ec10-textbook lefties claim it will raise once all the xs and os are netted outZ Will probably cost the city and state revenue…
"Pro-business moderates" have been doing what they can to make New York hostile to businesses, but it's a drip-by-drip process while Mamdani promises a gusher.
As a billionaire job creator, I have more love for New York in my little finger than Zohran Mamdani has in his entire body. Also, if he raises my taxes to pay for public services, I'm moving to Florida.
Under Zohran Mamdani, gas prices have spiked, the stock market has cratered, and the US is locked in a nonsensical war with Iran. Is this really what New Yorkers signed up for?
What concerns me is that this logic will be used as a justification for housing reparations that will lay a special real estate tax on White homeowners in order to address shelter injustice..
Twenty years ago I would have laughed off the idea as some Tin Foil Hat ravings. I don't easily dismiss it anymore.
It's hard to be sympathetic to New Yorkers who are getting what they have supported and voted for for decades and getting it good and hard.
'Esoteric' was chosen because most people don't know what it means, but it sounds intellectual and trendy.
All Marxism is a simple attack on the concept of 'self', from the concept of the collective. Children are an extension of self, thus the state wants control of your children. So is the concept of bloodline and inheritance. Property is an extension of self, thus the state wants your property, too. The collective provides protection from the consequences of attacking the individual.
New Yorkers don't seem to understand the danger they've voted themselves into, and will probably avoid comprehending the outcomes.
By the way, who determines market value for these properties? Judge Arthur Engoron? There will be numerous court battles over that.
Marxism is a specific political and economic theory, not a label for every government regulation of children, inheritance, or property. States across political systems have long exercised such authority. The legitimate debate is where to draw the line between individual liberty and state power, not whether all collective regulation is an attack on the self. Calling every disputed policy “Marxism” avoids that debate rather than resolving it.
"“There’s a better way to do it,” said, Ms. Hochul a pro-business moderate. “Point to Russian oligarchs and Saudi princes” rather than someone who invests in the city, she added.
Maybe point at some Jooos while you're at it.
There is no better way to do it. Hochul wants to demonize "bad" ethnic groups while supporting the tax. The tax is the problem.
How much tax is the guy who owns the $238 million place already paying to the city? How is another tax "fair?"
Time for someone with balls to point out that this country exists because a bunch of rich guys got fed up with paying excessive taxes.
"Condominium Units $1 million or more 4% to 6.5%/Co-op Units $1 million or more 4% to 6.5%"
These would be just very ordinary units in NYC. But it might be a true pied-a-terre — an owned apartment that you use like a hotel room when you're doing business or attending an event in town, or maybe where one member of a suburban household stays during the week to avoid a long commune. Seems like the living predicament of a middle class person in NYC.
I'm waiting for the smiling 60-second Public Service Announcement by Mamdani about the new Soylent Green they're going to be selling at the city-run grocery stores.
"said, Ms. Hochul a pro-business moderate."
Right..........moderate.........
Seriously, I'd like to hear even one still-sentient, formerly classic liberal Democrat explain how they have morphed overnight into this insanity.
Shorter Bich: "These aren't the communists you are looking for."
**Richard said...
"Ms. Hochul a pro-business moderate." Compared to whom -Mamdani?**
Pol Pot.
Karma-lic. Maybe, baby, a fetus... feature of their Choice... Stork forbid, uh, choice.
Gotta pay for those grocery stores somehow.
There is a sound rationale for this tax. NYC has an income tax that is used to pay for city services. The income tax is based solely on the location of your primary residence, not on whether your income is earned working in the city. Pied-a-terres are used by some to avoid paying the NYC income tax, they earn income working in NYC but have their primary residence elsewhere. This is unfair to those who have their primary residence in NYC and therefore pay the taxes that support and benefit the pied-a-terre owners.
Craig Howard,
Right, and I am Marie of Roumania!
"These would be just very ordinary units in NYC. But it might be a true pied-a-terre — an owned apartment that you use like a hotel room when you're doing business or attending an event in town, or maybe where one member of a suburban household stays during the week to avoid a long commune. Seems like the living predicament of a middle class person in NYC."
Yup.
4% of $1 million is $40,000.
Good and hard. Only a kulak would object.
This nuanced "not Marxism" seems an awful lot like "Marxism." Which is what the Marxist mayor professes to subscribe to.
Deus caritas est!
"These would be just very ordinary units in NYC. But it might be a true pied-a-terre"
Yup. Maybe they're just a retired couple and want to spend time with their kids and grandkids who live in the city, but want to be in FL in the winter.
On the other hand, anybody who owns something that has a French word for a name has got it coming.
"As a billionaire job creator, …"
Sure, Rich.
OG Mike, It’s meant to be taken humorously and not seriously. It’s okay to have a sense of humor. 😂
*What's “fundamentally unfair”? It's a child's reasoning: If someone has something that he's not using, it should be mine.*
It's also the reasoning behind adverse possession laws, where if your neighbor or anybody simply flagrantly uses your property for a period of time (5 years in California) and you can't or won't prevent them, then voila!—they're now the owner.
We lived and started our careers in NY and loved it, but as the article mentions, it is mainly a city for the young or the rich. At a later stage of our life, with young kids and a need for more space, ease of commute, the outdoors, and affordability, we preferred cities that offer those.
The truth about every great city is that it is expensive, wonderful to be a part of but you need a good reason to be there.
"4% of $1 million is $40,000."
Annually? Wow.
And if your property is assessed at $2M… (is the "4% to 6.5% meant to indicate the tax is "progressive"?)
And I thought Madison property taxes were high.
Can this be right?
It's hard to know where the humor starts with a fabulist.
"It's hard to be sympathetic to New Yorkers who are getting what they have supported and voted for for decades and getting it good and hard."
It's more a case of that old definition of Democracy: two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
Should you not have sympathy for the lamb?
Yew Nork City got the mayor and Yew Nork the governor they both deserve.
"It's hard to be sympathetic to New Yorkers who are getting what they have supported and voted for for decades and getting it good and hard."
I doubt the lamb voted for the wolf.
Oh, I see that was your point, James.
NYers deserve what they get.
…we’re all friends so the thing what bugs me most- the clients, masters of the universe subject to this and the other new commie taxes- the ones who haven’t already fled to Florida- they’re making inquiries and asking questions that amount to ‘tell me how I can keep my home in New York/Boston- I just want to avoid the taxes…no exception they are the ones where we see all the Democrat donations…
How many of those homes are owned by foreign nationals?
"I doubt the lamb voted for the wolf."
It's not that the lamb voted for the wolf. But in NYC the lambs voted with the wolves for years before this particular iteration of the question of who to have for dinner appeared on the ballot.
Mamdani didn't come out of nowhere. He's the latest result of a long march by the left. So yeah, the sheep voted with the wolves many times. The sheep raised the wolves from pups and said, "Aren't we so very virtuous and inclusive. Why do you hate wolves, hater?"
High priced NYC real estate is an investment hedge for the very rich, many of whom do not live in America.
When you punish those investments, they go elsewhere. The result is a big drop in NYC real estate and tax revenues.
The Democratic Socialists goal is disinvestment in America, which reduces our wealth and makes their socialist messages more appealing. These people are not as stupid as they might seem.
Ms. Hochul a pro-business moderate.
News to me. Thanks NY Times.
Mamdani is looking to retire the Florida Realtor of the Year award.
Billy Joel was right; being somewhere is really a state of mind more than any tangible thing. Food, sex and meetings can be had anywhere, other than NYC.
The way the pandemic measures dispelled the idea that you had to eat at a restaurant, or watch a movie at the theater; taxing NYC rich could go a long way towards welcoming the artificiality of reality, as we have come to subject our compliant selves.
As the house of Saud and China before them found out, a city is way more difficult to be built from the top down, than it can be destroyed from the top down.
"If you have a club where just a few of the members are paying most of the dues, it seems like the fair thing is to get everybody paying, not ask the payers to pay more."
The members that aren't paying don't think that's fair and there are more of them than there are of the dues paying variety. So when it comes time to vote on how dues are collected...
"So yeah, the sheep voted with the wolves many times. The sheep raised the wolves from pups and said, "Aren't we so very virtuous and inclusive. Why do you hate wolves, hater?""
This also works with "college credentialed white women" and "muslims".
I'm sure some of the lambs voted with the wolves (to mix another metaphor, hoping they'd be eaten last). But Mamdani only got around 50% of the vote, and many of these property owners don't vote in NYC.
As was pointed out above, the threshold is really $1 million, which is a fairly modest apartment (1 or 2 bedrooms, 1000 sq ft) in decent parts of Manhattan. And inflation will bring more and more apartments above that threshold.
A case in point: A few decades ago NYC put in a "mansion tax" on homes sold for $1 million and above. At that time $1 million could buy a very large apartment or townhouse. Now millions of middle class New Yorkers are subject to the mansion tax when they sell.
Finally there is a boob I don’t like. He is the mayor of New York.
I see we have an admission of 'clown nose on, clown nose off' argument.
"I doubt the lamb voted for the wolf. "
True enough. But for primary elections it only requires a few sheep to say, "Let's not vote for that furry, fanged dude telling us how much he likes mutton".
'The NYT calls the new tax "esoteric." '
The NYT calls Commissar Hochul a "pro-business moderate".
"Many of these property owners don't vote in NYC"
It turned out that the loudest complaints came from wealthy Democrats who actually live in NYC but have registered to vote at their vacation homes in competitive districts elsewhere. Since the city uses voter registration as part of determining a person's residence, they got listed as living outside NYC and their actual residence got taxed as a second home.
It's nice to see voter fraud has a cost, once in a while.
"It turned out that the loudest complaints came from wealthy Democrats who actually live in NYC but have registered to vote at their vacation homes in competitive districts elsewhere."
That made my day. Thanks!
Marxism is a specific political and economic theory, not a label for every government regulation of children, inheritance, or property.
But object of Marxism, rich, is to get rid of private property, inheritance and the family. So yes. When the state does it it's exactly like Marxism.
Calling Hochul a pro-business moderate is esoteric to me.
I was wondering if the tax applies to corporate owners and NGO’s. Many non-profits provide housing for employees. Some companies hold corporate units used by employees.
"The income tax is based solely on the location of your primary residence, not on whether your income is earned working in the city."
Lawnerd, are you sure? I know Rush Limbaugh used to count, carefully, the number of days that he broadcast from NYC versus Florida because, back then, after a certain number of days he would (if memory serves) be subject to NY tax for the whole year, but these days, a lawyer friend of ours who works all over the world and an investor friend who works all over the country have to file tax returns in every state in which they work even a single day, and their firms are making decisions about hosting in-person versus Zoom meetings on that basis. And, don't pro athletes deal with this same issue?
“There’s a better way to do it,” said, Ms. Hochul a pro-business moderate. “Point to Russian oligarchs and Saudi princes” rather than someone who invests in the city, she added.
Of course there is a downside to exposing the Russians and Saudis so Mamdani chooses scapegoats he knows are reliably non violent.
Jamie, it probably varies by state and also with reciprocal tax agreements. Here in Louisville there's a metro occupational tax that applies to any earner working in Jefferson county though nonresidents don't pay the school portion. It may also have more to do with the minimum income that requires filing for exceptionally high earners more than the time period
Lawnerd is correct- that’s how the W2s we see work. Live in White Plains, CT or NJ and commute to work in NYC- no city tax. Crazy innit?
..:Rush was probably referring to state income tax in NY vs zero in FL…
…athletes pay NY State jock tax for NYC games. Add the city tax only if they live there…
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