"Everything about her appearance signals that she has capitulated to some very punishing beauty standards that insist women’s value lies only in their performance of youth.... After a childhood so influenced by her boldness, and years of being encouraged to express myself unapologetically, I confess I felt a sense of betrayal that she seemed to have finally succumbed to society’s expectations. But as uncomfortable as it can be for me to recognize, I wonder if Madonna isn’t simply once again forcing us to confront some hard truths. That deep down, we are not perhaps as bold or fearless as we’d like to believe ourselves to be. That none of us want to age, or lose our beauty or the power that comes with it. That in the end, we are all vain creatures desperate to hold on to, by any means possible, a shred of youth. Transgression is out; filler is in. Instead of being uniquely, aspirationally free, is she — are we all — trapped?"
Writes Glynnis MacNicol, in
"Madonna Has Become an Avatar for Our Fear of Aging" (NYT).
MacNicol is 48. She doesn't really know how we all feel, but I'd just like to say, at age 76, that it certainly isn't youthful to be desperate about clinging to youth. And we're not "all... trapped." If all the singing about expressing yourself has value, it should mean respecting who we really are, not hating it to the point of attacking it with needles and knives.
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85 comments:
Definitely sensing a “crazy old leftist woman” theme building, though the trans post seems an outlier at this point.
NYT writer... lame.
Madonna is super wealthy and a pop star icon indeed. If she let herself age in front of us, that would attract even more scorn.
I'm no Madonna fan at all, but it is not difficult to understand that Madonna's fame and ability to attract fans and customers is hitched to her appearance.
Us common folk oldsters don't have that pressure.
Headline: A lifelong seller of her appearance continues to sell her appearance.
See Mae West's painful double entendres when elderly.
(air-brushing and veils help)
The last new hit of hers I can name is “Beautiful Stranger” from 1999. That was the last time she was relevant to me, and I recall that being past her prime.
Madonna's plastic surgeons and face filler docs are probably the very best in the world, and come with a price many of us could not afford even if we wanted to.
I look at her fake-youthful appearance I think...."Elite wealth"
Anyone on the left screaming about taxing Madonna into poverty?
bueller?
Didn't Pamela Anderson catch a lot of grief for going out in public without makeup (and almost entirely from other women)?
Yes, taking off your panties does not work so well anymore. Got to keep innovating.
I understand her choices. Being Madonna, would make getting old a lot harder to accept. It's the opposite of everything she was.
Is aging easier for people who were never physically attractive? Probably.
I did like a lot of her stuff, even occasionally deliberately listening to it (mostly Beautiful Stranger which is on a playlist, plus it's got the Austin Powers connection). Used to have the Dick Tracy soundtrack that I also liked.
The rest of her is just weird.
“That in the end, we are all vain creatures desperate to hold on to, by any means possible, a shred of youth.”
Easy for MacNicol to say. I’m guessing she has a lot less to be desperate about holding on to than Madonna.
"Best album in twenty years" is not the same as "Best album in forty years". The HypeMachine™ is showing some restraint.
Everything about her appearance signals that she has capitulated to some very punishing beauty standards that insist women’s value lies only in their performance of youth..
What horrible fucking English. what is "performance of youth"? and 'punishing standards" is nonsensical. When do "standards" punish people? Do they do it with whips or chains?
And she doesn't feel "betrayed" she feels a "Sense of being betrayed". Other than pushing up the word count, what does this blather accomplish?
As for societies expectations, why does the author feel "betrayed" when someone tries to meet them? Dont NYTs writers meet societies "expectations" in every other way? They aren't fucking rebels or nonconformists, they're the exact opposite.
Women are supposed to look as good as they can. At whatever age. Same with men. That's what we "all" expect. And "we" always have. And its not just "society" - its almost every body. I don't like my aging looks and if I could wave a magic wand I would change it. Who wouldn't?
As usual Althouse exposes me to the odd strange world of elite opinion in the NYTs. How much of it nonsense and propaganda? Like Michelle Goldberg snarking about how useless children and marriage are, before doing both.
The reporter was....8 years old when Madonna was a thing?
That Madonna always embraced "punishing beauty standards" and in fact was one of the punishers never occurs to this reporter.
Nothing Madonna did was anything other than an echo of prevailing cultural messages. She never spoke back.
She didn't spare us then, and she ain't gonna now, either.
Geriatric narcissism.
America 250 is turning out to be the Summer of Madonna. Three stories in two weeks or so. But really, does she deserve our attention?
A French friend of ours recently reported to us on a trip that she had made to a coastal town in France known for its population of ultrarich -- both inhabitants and visitors. She was shocked -- and appalled -- by the experience, as she took daily hikes around the city, of seeing women who appeared from behind both in body form and dress to be in their 20s or 30s at most. As she passed them and looked back -- she's a vigorous walker -- she would consistently see the pathetic look of the face of a woman in her 60s, 70s, or even 80s, that had been planed and polished to the point of surrealism. As her stay stretched out it became obvious to her that these facades that definitely weren't really fooling anyone were in large part not done in the interest of seduction but in order to keep up with a standard of class/wealth that demanded, a conspicuous show of the ability to maintain financially an extremely expensive ability to consume services.
Women who've had the work done can protest all they want that they do it for themselves, that it makes them feel better and it's no one else's business, but the simple fact that women do it is indisputable. It makes them feel better because they are maintaining an artificial standard that has been imposed on them.
I admire actresses such as Judy Dench, Helen Mirren and the late Maggie Smith, who allowed their faces to reflect their age. They all look, or looked, like women who lived fully. Older women are wonders, winking lights in the universe, stars.
“Everything about her appearance signals that she has capitulated to some very punishing beauty standards….”
What are these “standards” that women keep whining about? Where do they come from? Are they set by some official Board of Standards, like the Office of Weights and Measures? Can I be on it? I think I could make a real contribution.
Madonna is rich and famous. No one is forcing her to do anything that she doesn't want to do. Also, I don't think that Madonna has significantly transformed into something else. Madonna was always about looking as sexy as possible and pushing the boundaries of how far she could go in public. The only thing that changed about Madonna is that she's gotten older. That's a physical change; not a personality change.
When it comes to aging, I don't mind looking different as I get older. What annoys me about getting older is that I can't do the things that I used to be able to do when I was in better physical shape.
Exposing your pussy is probably still the best move.
rhhardin said...
"Exposing your pussy is probably still the best move."
Unless it looks like half-chewed Mortadella.
Madonna was a year ahead of me at the University of Michigan. At least I graduated. Who's the loser now??
Get married young. Stay married. You get all the memories of being married to a hot chick and mutual support when you get old, plus KIDS who care. If you found this old hag repulsive in the 80’s you where on the right track.
I think the cones were a tip-off that Madonna is not a serious philosopher. Or something.
"capitulated to some very punishing beauty standards that insist women’s value lies only in their performance of youth"
Do women get tired of the victim narrative?
Madonna didn't capitulate or surrender to some authority with unrealistic demands. Madonna chose to have these procedures. It's on her.
Madonna is on the edge of the uncanny valley, but at her age, she's got a new album coming out. Good for her.
Get married young. Stay married. You get all the memories of being married to a hot chick and mutual support when you get old, plus KIDS who care.
Great advice that worked extremely well for me. I married in my early 20's and my wife was even younger. Neither of us engaged in anything like the hollow, promiscuous "hookup" culture that is sucking the souls out of today's young people, especially young women. She
My wife just turned 60 and I'm still wild for her. Age has been kind to her without any help other than a bit of Botox, and I have extremely fond and vivid memories of the red-hot cheerleader she used to be. Intimacy is a bit more of a production these days than the casual impromptu fun it used to be, but every bit as fulfilling.
The icing on the cake is our great kids who are now all grown up and our dear friends and companions in travel and other adventures. Grandchildren hopefully on the horizon in a year or two.
“Get married young. Stay married. You get all the memories of being married to a hot chick and mutual support when you get old, plus KIDS who care.”
The real avatar of ageing well is Rachel Ward, gorgeous English actress active in the 80s (Thorn birds, against all odds) who married her handsome costar Bryan Brown, moved to Australia and had a beautiful family. Her daughter and she collaborate on her instagram through which she sells her farm products. She looks like the grandma in her late sixties that she is, though a fit and happy one. Check her out.
Madonna was never an avatar of anything in my book, except, like the Kardashians, avatar of degrading our culture.
I appreciate the response Hassayamper and sweet Caroline.
I’ll check out Rachel Ward.
As far as Madonna being a hag, I was referring to the Folklore & Mythology: Originating from old European legends, a hag is often depicted as an evil witch, sorceress, or a malicious entity that interacts with the dead
"I wonder if Madonna isn’t simply once again forcing us to confront some hard truths."
So in other words Madonna is still fierce?
There's the outward appearance of aging and then there's the decline in mental and physical performance due to aging. To me, slowing performance decline is much more important than looks. However, if you focus on performance and functionality, the looks will follow.
Having experienced severe decrepitude due to bone on bone hip arthritis in my thirties and early forties, I know what it feels like to be a frail invalid. That's my fear of old age that motivates me to focus on my physical health and overall robustness.
Her body, her choice.
Glynnis MacNicol
Speaking of growing old, have you seen Glynnis O’Connor 70 or Kristie McNicol 63 lately?
Back in the day I would have left my plastic bubble too for Glynis O’Connor.
Little known fact: rather than immune compromised disease, the Boy in the Plastic Bubble died from micro plastics.
Internet click bait ads tell me he had enough micro plastics in just his brain sufficient to build a “spork.”
"Do women get tired of the victim narrative?"
Once it ceases being useful, then the empowerment narrative kicks in.
Madonna’s vibe is very Norma Desmond.
AA: “At age 76””
I think you’re 75 (memorable because you share a 1951 birthdate with Rush). Most females tend to fudge their ages downward. You’re the exception!
This is exactly what I thought an elderly Madonna would look like. She's a rebel and she's not settling into a socially acceptable role.
And, of course, she can't win no matter what she does. We expect our rock stars to die young or to be remembered only as they were at the height of their fame. We want rock stars to go away after they had their run -- maybe they can come back in their late 80s or 90s to receive a lifetime achievement award.
Also, maybe the NY Times is just wrong. What do Madonna's younger sisters look like? Maybe this is how this family ages. I know people in their mid fifties and sixties who can easily pass for men and women 20 years younger. Good shape, slim and all the rest. Really, it all means is avoiding alcohol and getting some exercise. (Also the opposite, some people age very poorly and that is sad, especially for women.)
“Little known fact: rather than immune compromised disease, the Boy in the Plastic Bubble died from micro plastics.”
No, Bubble Boy was killed by George because he kept insisting on that Moops nonsense. It was ruled a justifiable homicide.
The homicide was justifiable that day, my friends.
I think Madonna and Susanna Hoffs (Bangles) are about the same age. Depends on genes and how you live your life.
Because of the cosmetic surgery, the conversation centers around whether she would look better without it.
Without the cosmetic surgery the conversation would be about whether she “looks good or (of course) bad for her age.”
As far as Susanna Hoffs is concerned - I know nothing about her but would bet the farm that Work Has Been Done. Maybe not to the extent that Madonna has taken it but she’s buddies with cosmetic surgery. At a certain income bracket it is 100% certain.
So many people are doing it, on the left, right, and in between. I couldn't care less. Spend your money as you want to. But the results may not be worth it. See what it did to these MAGAs.
https://www.boredpanda.com/mar-a-lago-face-transformations/
Suzanna Hoffs was always the beauty.
@lonejustice: these are comparisons of women to photos in their teens. Dumb smear job and nothing else.
LoneSuckJob - do f off.
Sometimes I do wonder if the women having these surgeries are also in need of cataract surgery so they just can't see what they look like. But I also recognize that I'm being mean, unlike the NYTimes writer who cannot recognize her mean-ness or her misogyny.
It's not a fear, so much as rousing resentment, intimate indignation, in some. Progress is an unqualified, monotonic process.
So women, who are all but blind to 95% of men, unless they need something, are upset that the 5% of men that they do care about have moved on to a younger cohort.
Most men learn a lot earlier, that they shouldn’t build their lives around female validation.
Caroline,
I looked up Rachel Ward. She does have the stunning feminine features of Mrs Duffy in her youth, but without the blue eyes and blonde (now silver) hair which I still find myself captivated by. I’m always hearted by celebrities who remained married and growing old gracefully.
Madonna, and Taylor Swift, have the same physical attributes- they are not natural beauties. If you can find pics of them sans makeup, they really aren't all that good looking.
Sydney Sweeney, OTOH, doesn't need it. Nor does Susannah Hoofs, as noted above. Natural beauties, both.
The world of supermodels, people who live only on their looks, is fascinating. Without makeup, some of them are not only not all that goodlooking, they're downright ugly. It's amazing what makeup can do.
I've mentioned before, I've no idea what my wife looks like with makeup on. She's never worn any. And at 69 her hair is still auburn, not colored at all. Mine turned gray 25 years ago.
British actresses, like Helen Mirren, Judy Dench, Jenny Agutter, and Felicity Kendal manage to age gracefully, possibly because British showbiz manages to keep them employed. There seem to be plenty of good roles for ladies of a certain age, so they need not tart themselves up.
tcrosse- yes - the lost art of aging gracefully.
Madoona fights it for dollars. It's all part of the show.
In old age, health is the primary component of beauty. Madonna doesnt look healthy.
"As she passed them and looked back -- she's a vigorous walker -- she would consistently see the pathetic look of the face of a woman in her 60s, 70s, or even 80s, that had been planed and polished to the point of surrealism."
First, anyone able to "vigorously walk" in their 70s and 80s is an object of admiration and envy. God willing we'll be able to do that.
The old saying is "you can never be too rich or too thin". Tom Wolfe was mocking them as "Social x-rays" in the 1980s. Personally, I think its healthier for old people to have some meat/fat on their bones, but what do I know. I'm not a doctor, i just played one on the internet.
Vanity has always been a subject of humor and mockery. The man with his toupee, the old guy who thinks he's catnip to women, the ugly/old woman trying to be "sexy". Its all part of human comedy.
But if you're an old woman and getting a facelift on a chintuck makes you feel good - go for it. Just don't think you'll ever be 25 again. And that's true with men too. Get your hairplugs and keept the 60 year old ruins of those six-pack abs, just dont think those young girls are smiling at you out of "admiration". LOL.
See what it did to these MAGAs.
Imagine how pathetic one's life must be to turn every subject into a dig about Trump and/or MAGA.
“ First, anyone able to "vigorously walk" in their 70s and 80s is an object of admiration and envy.”
I think it’s pretty common, I just got back from the English Lake District where I hiked over Greenup Edge to Borrowdale and Sty Head Pass to Wasdale, and went up to Scaffell Pike, all in 3 days. I am 70 and it’s not too hard. But I spent my youth climbing boulder piles of shot rock in underground mines, kind of like the old Indian chief who can outrun the tough young braves.
Jim at said...
See what it did to these MAGAs.Imagine how pathetic one's life must be to turn every subject into a dig about Trump and/or MAGA.
---------------
No, it's just that MAGA revels in plastic surgery for their supporters, like their women with puffed up lips like a porn star, and so many other MAGA women. I think MAGA men approve of all of this plastic surgery because their ideal woman is a woman with big lips on Pornhub sucking off their little tiny dicks. But who am I to judge. To each his own, however perverted.
"Imagine how pathetic one's life must be to turn every subject into a dig about Trump and/or MAGA."
I'd rather not...
@ lonejustice
You're mentally ill.
Let Madonna be Madonna.
"I think it’s pretty common,"
Yeah sure dude. Gotcha!
Except its not "Gotcha" - look at the number of people who are fucking dead in their 70s. They aren't walking "vigorously" - cause they aint walking at all. Then look at all the ones in wheelchairs, hobbling on canes, or spending their days watching TV and unable to walk more than a mile
Anyone who can walk vigorourly at 75 or 80 is Goddamn lucky.
At 81, I have outlived a lot of my friends. And some of them will outlive me.
I think Madonna is doing fine. Look at her. She's older but athletic. I was never a fan . But she's exercising, performing, doing OK. Why begrudge her?
I'm 60 and have been slowly dying since 52. Less slowly now. Good on Madonna, despite being slattern.
Madonna has the courage and boldness to proudly profess her cowardice. She's a role model for cowards everywhere. Excessive plastic surgery should be worn proudly, like the scars of a great warrior......I'm not sure, but I think part of Madanna's appeal to her fans is the way guys like me disapprove of her......I'm an octogenarian. It's not so bad except for the times when it's awful. There are some plus sides. I'm cashing in on The Great Society. Thanks for your taxes..... I'm not religious. I can't see any plus side to death, however, and that's my next big metamorphosis. .
Madonna who?
My husband, a real man, couldn't give a fuck what I look like, my moods, or how much physical acuity I have lost. How many of you could say the same? We are lucky people.
Ugh, just ugh.
Mike Watt had Madonna pegged decades ago. If you don’t know who Mike Watt is, you don’t know ‘80’s punk/alternative music. Or just check out the credits on “Blood Sugar Sex Magic”.
Lonejustice writes likes Titus’s Iowan farm cousin.
I recall Camille Paglia having some things, positive and critical, to say about Madonna over the years. Paglia has been quiet of late. Apparently she has retired, but there is a recent interview of her in the Times (UK).
Not much about Madonna, but a little bit about an aging Paglia.
Why should we care?
I'm 71 and I can walk 2-3 miles at a 18 minute pace. It seems vigorously to me. OTOH, some mornings it is hard to get out of bed. I know, like a shark, to stop moving is to die.
“I think you’re 75 (memorable because you share a 1951 birthdate with Rush). Most females tend to fudge their ages downward. You’re the exception!”
My thoughts too. January, 1951. I think January 12. Which, if accurate, would be three months younger than I. And I don’t think that I turn 76 until this fall.
What is weird is to live with a woman who has never known her age. For me, it’s almost automatic - the math is easy. I was born in 1950. So, on my birthday every year, I can get my new age by subtracting 50 from the date (mod 100). My partner, despite a photographic memory, struggles. Instead of just instinctively adding or subtracting, as appropriate, she counts. I am 7 years older, so she goes 75, 74, 73, 72, 71, 70, 69, 68 - turning 69 later this month. Most often though, she just asks me. She does remember that she is nearing 70. Sometimes though, when she accuses me of being older than dirt, I reverse our ages for her.
Neither of us really worries about how we look anymore. But she does worry about how I look (apparently like a homeless bun) but I cannot mention how she does. She claims that everyone thinks that she is a decade or two younger than she really is. Sure they do. But I prefer that to her obsessing about it.
"She seemed to have finally succumbed to society’s expectations". Really? Are women victims or empowered? It seems to shift depending on circumstances.
Men, too. Mendelbaum. Mendelbaum. Mendelbaum. My back!
There’s nothing more pathetic than an old person cosplaying “young and hip” which is why that Steve Buscemi meme extracted from 30 Rock (“Hey fellow kids”) is evergreen. That’s why seeing Bruce Springsteen writhing like a worm onstage because his silly skinny jeans render him unable to stand up on his own cracks us up more than his crappy new songs entertain us and it’s why Madonna is fascinating to some. Like a train wreck.
Sure, lonejustice. Only MAGA women have plastic surgery. And Lauren Sanchez is somehow the avatar of MAGA.
Note that they didn't include Melania in their hit piece. I wonder why?
Because she's gorgeous?
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